Why do people hate the kick-ass character that is Arya Stark?

[Darksnider05]

You guess? Of course.

I didn't read that chapter in a while, but if I remember correctly Arya lured him into a trap. She planned his death in advance, that's ill.

Murder is not morally acceptable, unless the person you kill was trying to kill you with effective means.

We despise those people because they are corrupted criminals, all good.

They deserve punishment according to the law? I hope that.

But that doesn't whitewash at all Arya's crimes, she is steadily walking the same path of those criminals she loathes so much.

That's a key truth in life. Children who are beaten up suffer great deals of it, but might still grow up to be adults that beat their own children.

Whereas Sansa has found a way out that preserves her own innocence deep down her, Arya has taken the road of imitating/learning from those who damaged her.

She needs to change road asap.

Justice comes from Authority, not from people empowering themselves. That's called adding a crime on another.

Not sure if serious? "Justice comes from authority" I'd like to ask how old you are and how familiar with human history you are.

Justice comes from who ever has the power to say what's Justice thus making it kind of nebulous. The Law on thee other hand applies to all and has nothing to do with justice as it will punish evil and good all the same. You can be the goodest person in the world or evilest and law will give no fucks about who you are. Justice is a buzz word in comparison.

If an evil person is following the law but killing people through legal action it won't care. If a Good person comes along and kills them illegally for this action the law will deal with them for their illegal act regardless of cause.

Except the core of Batman's identity is that he does not kill, nor does he take orders from anyone, least of all an assassin's guild. She is becoming Lady Shiva or, for Marvel, X-23.

She herself acknowledges that she's chosen to become a monster. She's basically slipping down the Richard 3 slope at this point, and her environment is not helping.

Might be you will not end up finding violence and murder awesome, if martin continues to write it as usual (unless you find stuff like Catelyn hanging her traitorous sworn sword awesome)

I do find it awesome actually.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Justice comes from Authority, not from people empowering themselves. That's called adding a crime on another.

That's true if and only if Authority Derives From The People. Otherwise, what Authority might call justice is plain oppression.

I am saying this, because unjust authority has had a role of primal importance in Arya's arc, shaping her concepts and misconcepts about the world.

In the world she inhabits -not just westeros that would be bad enough on its own right, but in its margin and/or its war torn "no man's lands"- human life is really cheap and justice is extremely rare, and that's only objective observations. The need to adapt and survive in that world would inevitably leave its marks and I believe that it would be silly to expect a character of Arya's age to develop ideas close to post-enlightement justice and jurisdiction concepts.

My opinion is, that her actions (those that deserve criticism) should not be viewed from a legalistic standpoint, but through the lens of the sense of justice that she's developing (because yes, she is developing one and it stems from her experiences and her empathy she has, and has repeatedly demonstrated, for other people). And, in Dareon's case, IMO it was flawed: I believe she killed him for his treatment to his companions and deserting was only what made him "fair game" in her view. Had Dareon been a deserter, but a sympathetic one and with sympathetic causes, I believe she would have let him go his way. This sort of double standard is very problematic in one's justice "system" and I do hope that she will be pushed to consider such aspects of her justice views.

[foreign675]

Not sure if serious? "Justice comes from authority" I'd like to ask how old you are and how familiar with human history you are.

Justice comes from who ever has the power to say what's Justice thus making it kind of nebulous. The Law on thee other hand applies to all and has nothing to do with justice as it will punish evil and good all the same. You can be the goodest person in the world or evilest and law will give no fucks about who you are. Justice is a buzz word in comparison.

If an evil person is following the law but killing people through legal action it won't care. If a Good person comes along and kills them illegally for this action the law will deal with them for their illegal act regardless of cause.

A) Leave aside personal attacks, they serve nothing

B ) English is not my first language. I specified that Justice comes from Authority, it means that with Justice I was referring to Lawful Justice, not to 'divine' or 'ying yang' or 'good/evil' justice.

C) My point was, Arya is no authority and she has no right to do her own 'justice', because that is not 'lawful justice' it's a crime.

Summary: read better into other people opinions.

That's true if and only if Authority Derives From The People. Otherwise, what Authority might call justice is plain oppression.

I am saying this, because unjust authority has had a role of primal importance in Arya's arc, shaping her concepts and misconcepts about the world.

In the world she inhabits -not just westeros that would be bad enough on its own right, but in its margin and/or its war torn "no man's lands"- human life is really cheap and justice is extremely rare, and that's only objective observations. The need to adapt and survive in that world would inevitably leave its marks and I believe that it would be silly to expect a character of Arya's age to develop ideas close to post-enlightement justice and jurisdiction concepts.

My opinion is, that her actions (those that deserve criticism) should not be viewed from a legalistic standpoint, but in through the lens of the sense of justice that she's developing (because yes, she is developing one and it stems from her experiences and her empathy she has, and has repeatedly demonstrated, for other people). And, in Dareon's case, IMO it was flawed: I believe she killed him for his treatment to his companions and deserting was only what made him "fair game" in her view. Had Dareon been a deserter, but a sympathetic one and with sympathetic causes, I believe she would have let him go his way. This sort of double standard is very problematic in one's justice "system" and I do hope that she will be pushed to consider such aspects of her justice views.

I appreciate your post, in particular your first sentence.

However, let it even be under an oppressive regime, I would still call self-made justice in the form of murder for what it is: a crime.

It's cool to say "let's see things in perspective", and forget someone suffered and died to to her actions.

Yeah, perspective counts and all the great if Arya grows out of this.

But no matter what, that was a wrong doing that should not be whitewashed.

I don't see how her actions are defensible at all.

[foreign675]

The problem you are ignoring, foreign675, is that there was no authority there in a position to act. Nobody in Braavos cares about the Night's Watch, so if Arya didn't act, he would have gotten away.

There are authorities, only of a different jurisdiction.

If an American guy commits a crime and flees to France to have a nice time, and another guy from his country travels to France and step in him.. do you think the latter has any right to murder/steal/eyeXeye him? He does not.

No matter where you go, you can not act as a substitute for your own state authority.

She killed him because she wanted to do it, it suited her own feelings and desires.

That's the line of thought of a criminal.

She could have waited to report to her own Authority, directly or indirectly through message, or understand that sometimes law fail to persecute criminals.

Now she is a criminal as well, and she has only to hope to never be caught for any of her wrong doings.

[Darksnider05]

Think she's been a criminal for a while now her killing people who were working under the authority of King Joffrey. Guess we can add OutLaw to her titles :cool4:.

[foreign675]

So basically you're vilifying the idea of personal justice in favor of a blind faith in institutional authority.

Nope.

I am vilifying the idea of personal justice which should be better known as CRIME.

I did not say nor imply that people should have 'faith', neither conscious nor blind, in institutional authority.

I invite you to not make straw arguments, stick to what I said only.

[Darksnider05]

She will of course, need an eyepatch.

Well technically she's an OutLaw Princess in Exile Deep cover agent in training.

[ChillyPolly]

I've seen threads about Arya's redemption; these don't make sense to me because I don't think she needs to be redeemed. I get that she's killed a bunch of people, but let's be honest, so has nearly every other character in the series.

The fact that's she's young and female has nothing to do with with the quality of her character, as it would be perfectly acceptable if she were a male teenager.

Assassination is a sordid affair, but she kills RAPISTS and KILLERS and has sworn vengeance on those who have ruined her family and put her in the situation in the first place. That's bonus points in my book.

Arya is NOT a psychopath, she's just a young person making do with what she has and valar morghulising a bunch of bad people.

So my question remains: Why do people hate the kick-ass character that is Arya Stark?

Because I don't approve of sneak murder and raw vengeance. And no, I would not approve of her if she were male.

I AM rooting for her redemption. And that makes me about as pro-Arya as any decent person can be.

[Darksnider05]

First of all, that's not a strawman...

You're entire argument seems to be based on the idea that justice needs to lie in the hands of some institutional form of authority. When I pointed out that no authroity was present, your response was that she should go find an authority, any authority rather than acting on her own. The implication there is a blind faith in authority. Do you not get that the word "crime" is entirely subjective? And so is authority for that matter.

Outlaw Princess in Exile Skinchanging Deep Cover Agent in training really...

And she should still have an eyepatch.

I don't get the eye-patch but I understand the style points it would bring.

[Sullen]

She's a self-righteous murderer, and an extremely weak attempt at the action girl trope... Brienne and Asha are both considerably more successful at it.

I also empathize a lot with the smallfolk, so I think the whole case of Dareon's murder is extremely deranging.

To those who say her chapters are boring, all I have to say is: Quentyn, FFC Jamie, and Arianne. Checkmate.

Quentyn is by far the most relatable character as far as being normal goes. He is not incredibly beautiful, not incredibly smart, or skilled at anything, and he doesn't have magic pets/powers... this sets him apart as far as PoV characters go.

Jaime's chapters, while slow, were like Brienne's... they were enjoyably thoughtful, unlike Arya's, which feel like pulp fantasy.

Granted on Arianne.

[foreign675]

First of all, that's not a strawman...

You're entire argument seems to be based on the idea that justice needs to lie in the hands of some institutional form of authority. When I pointed out that no authroity was present, your response was that she should go find an authority, any authority rather than acting on her own. The implication there is a blind faith in authority. Do you not get that the word "crime" is entirely subjective? And so is authority for that matter.

Oh yeah, next time someone from third world comes in first world to seek to make their own 'justice' for some apparent or real injustice they have directly or indirectly experienced.. ..don't complain, 'cause justice is 'subjective'.

So, Arya can kill a man for desertion and call it justice.

What should I say to a man who sees the amount of crimes in this country, and starts jailing people in his own Garage and says 'oh, the state is not doing his job well with these thieves, i ensure they pay for their own actions.. that's justice'.

The fact that 'authority might fail into delivering justice' does not entitle arya, you or anyone else to act at its place. If you do it, you are a criminal. Under all jurisdictions and justice systems on Earth.

The bulk of your viewpoint can be summarized in one word: anarchic.

Good Luck with your decision making.

[Darksnider05]

Oh yeah, next time someone from third world comes in first world to seek to make their own 'justice' for some apparent or real injustice they have directly or indirectly experienced.. ..don't complain, 'cause justice is 'subjective'.

So, Arya can kill a man for desertion and call it justice.

What should I say to a man who sees the amount of crimes in this country, and starts jailing people in his own Garage and says 'oh, the state is not doing his job well with these thieves, i ensure they pay for their own actions.. that's justice'.

The fact that 'authority might fail into delivering justice' does not entitle arya, you or anyone else to act at its place. If you do it, you are a criminal. Under all jurisdictions and justice systems on Earth.

The bulk of your viewpoint can be summarized in one word: anarchic.

Good Luck with your decision making.

So you'd be comfortable with her becoming a Bravo because what they do is perfectly legal apparently?

[foreign675]

So you'd be comfortable with her becoming a Bravo because what they do is perfectly legal apparently?

Woah, you like strawman arguments?

Have I ever said that? No.

You should really learn to stick to what people write, not to what you 'hear'.

And if you are curious about this kind of scenario, just ask my opinion since I didn't say anything on the subject.

cheers.

[Darksnider05]

Woah, you like strawman arguments?

Have I ever said that? No.

You should really learn to stick to what people write, not to what you 'hear'.

And if you are curious about this kind of scenario, just ask my opinion since I didn't say anything on the subject.

cheers.

You need to stop bringing up straw-mans when people ask you a question in reference to your views. Which seem a bit simplistic at this point.

[Sullen]

I think of her more like a child soldier. I don't think she was ever supposed to be an "action girl" per se.

She learns how to use Needle and fights for herself for three books before being recruited by the Faceless Men... that's prime action girl material.

A child soldier doesn't have much agency in the crimes he commits, Arya is in control of her actions pretty much everytime she kills someone, the Faceless Men even scold her for her indiscipline after she murders Dareon.. Hell, one could even argue she shares in the blame of the shepherd killed in the Riverlands (and likely more) while warging Nymeria in her sleep.

[foreign675]

You need to stop bringing up straw-mans when people ask you a question in reference to your views. Which seem a bit simplistic at this point.

...

If you say so. I'm done with you, cheers.

First of all there isn't a first, second, and third world anymore.

Second, you're confusing fantasy with real life. I live in America. We have an actual justice system with courts, and jails, and police, and federal investigators, and forensics, and licensed bounty hunters, and a national guard, and all kinds of good stuff like that. Most of the world has that stuff these days. Westeros does not, and neither does Essos. Most of the "authorities" that you keep talking about are corrupt scumbags that abuse the weak and don't give a fig's ass about justice. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with Daeron, but Raff? He was a rapist and a child killer and Arya doesn't have the right to exact her own justice on him when the "authorities" protect and even reward him for his cruelty? Justice is far from perfect today, but it isn't as dramatically flawed as it is on Planetos and the comparison is absurd.

Pray excuses, I am not confused at all.

I expressed my own opinion on the matter, and defended my own statements. Full Stop.

I do not wish you to live in a world like that to regret your own PoV.

[Pod The Impaler]

She learns how to use Needle and fights for herself for three books before being recruited by the Faceless Men... that's prime action girl material.

A child soldier doesn't have much agency in the crimes he commits, Arya is in control of her actions pretty much everytime she kills someone, the Faceless Men even scold her for her indiscipline after she murders Dareon.. Hell, one could even argue she shares in the blame of the shepherd killed in the Riverlands (and likely more) while warging Nymeria in her sleep.

I saw it more as progression when it comes to how & why she kills people.

Her first kill is as defensive as it gets - kills the stableboy in a clear case where her life was in danger if she did not escape.

Each one thereafter is just another step, less about desperation and more about deciding to kill someone. The insurance man is probably the most morally dodgy, because we see her accept the judgement of others in terms of why the man needs to die. The FM want her to not care why or judge the mark at all; they seem to think that killing should always be impersonal. Arya's own Stark values do not disavow killing, but emphasize personal judgement in why you kill someone; the killer must never morally disassociate herself from the act of taking someone's life.

Really, this is a very good line of moral tension in the story - a case can legitimately be made for either side of this divide.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

Arya could not have cared less if Daeron was a deserter or not. If Daeron actually was a decent guy do you all think she would have killed him anyway? As such arguing over the legality of the action is in my opinion doomed from the start as "he is a deserter" is her way of justifying it, when in reality she just do not like him. So this act in itself in not what i find most disturbing, but the fact that with every kill and this in particular shows how her emapthy is slowly eroded. She is slowly starting to rationalise as any murderer "he/she deserved it because .........".

The path she is going is full of darkness. And i really hope she finds a way back to the light.

[Kaminsod]

For me at least, i don't hater her, but i've never really cared that much about her or her storyline.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

People really dislike Arya? Thats lame.

She should kill more people. Or everyone. I'd be okay with that.