The Will to Change: Rereading Sandor

[Mad Madam Mim]

His helm was taken from him by the Elder Brother. This will warrant more discussion when we get to the Quiet Isle, but your question is a good one 'What do we make of the Hounds helmet?'

This is an interesting point, he a toy belonging to Gregor knowing that Gregor would be wroth if was found playing with it, but took it anyway. I doubt he expected Gregor to try to kill him tho'. He is quite the obienent hound even when ordered to kill the innocent Mycha, but slowly the, um, not willful child exactly, but the deeply buried Sandor begins to surface with very small acts of disobedience. His disobediences are often acts of kindness to Sansa too. "Random acts of disobedience and kindness.'

A good point here, we'll this happen again when he is really drunk and very stressed out. (yeah, when he deserts)

Yeah I don't think anyone could have anticipated the extreme level of violence Gregor actually used with Sandor, but I suspect there would have already been a number of alarming incidents prior to this that would have given Sandor a reason to be scared of Gregor. He does start to show trickles of disobedience, especially in his kindness towards Sansa. If we are entertaining the idea of a crude form of behaviourism with regards to change, this could be working in two ways:

1) Sandor witnessing the violence and mistreatment of Sansa, the source of his comfort, the 'pretty bird' who he has placed on a pedestal would I imagine be sickening to Sandor. The mistreatent of Sansa starts off small; Joffrrey ditches her when she was expecting to be escorted back, he calls her stupid but it rapidly declines- he forces her to look at her fathers head, the beatings. To Sandor, these acts and seeing the distress it causes Sansa create ever increasing increments of negative reinforcement of his past behaviour and beliefs.

2) Sansa almost seems to reward Sandor for these acts of kindness; she comforts him by placing a supportive hand on his should when he shares his story, she clings to him when he rescues her, she talks very opening and honestly with him when he shares his views, she places her hand on his cheek when he is distressed. He enjoys her comfort, he seems to be increasingly seeking it. He will also find relief that he has a) possibly prevented some of her beatings with his advice and b ) possibly relieved some of her distress with his kind actions. His acts of disobediance/kindness may have therefore started off as a trickle, but with each positive reinforcing gesture he receives from Sansa, and the 'pleasure' he feels from these acts, the more he will be encouraged to undertake more noticeable acts of defiance (which will eventually lead to deserting).

[Milady of York]

And who's the one operating in the background at the tourney, making moves on Ned's daughter, and then betting on the Kingslayer which leads to Renly's statement that he would have won twice as much had Tyrion been present? If this tourney contains some foreshadowing clues for how the story plays out in the future, then LF as the behind-the-scenes giant could be in store for a meeting with the winner he bet against.

Littlefinger is trying to reproduce his youthful experience with Catelyn, isn't he? Another chance with a more beautiful and supposedly more pliable girl that has the right looks. It won't be complete without someone in the role of a certain tall, dark-haired and gray-eyed Northerner who left some fond memories:

“I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well.”

Renly Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.

“Rather too well,” Littlefinger said. “I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?”

A token of this sort, very memorable indeed:

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

Unbeknownst to him, he's already in transit towards a headlong collision with another tall, dark-haired and gray-eyed man that looks like a Northerner, a second Brandon Stark that in his ignorance he can't hope to knock out of combat with a pre-emptive strike, and he formally took the first step here by betting one hundred golden dragons against Sandor. It'd be closing the circle from a narrative standpoint to have this second Brandon Stark open that wound again, literally or figuratively, now that he's so sure he finally has his second Catelyn.

It is interesting that Sandor still took the toy knight despite being scared of Gregor's potential reaction. First of all, this suggests that Gregor's attack on Sandor was not an 'out of the blue' random act of violence. There must have been previous incident(s) to give Sandor due course to be frightened of Gregor's reaction.

Secondly, despite knowing this, Sandor still took the toy which is quite an act of disobedience on Sandor's part. He knew he was doing wrong, he knew Gregor would be angry, he was scared, but he did it anyway. In considering the extreme consequences Sandor had to endure for a relatively minor act of disobedience, I wonder if this contributed to the unfailing obedience of the Hound persona in adulthood. It could almost be a simplistic example of conditioning. ie. Sandor learned from that experience that Disobedience = very bad consequences.

I think this is making too much of what's essentially a normal childish behaviour and juxtaposing a reasoning behind the action that the text doesn't support, because this would mean Gregor is punishing his brother for disobedience and it transfers the blame to Sandor even if the punishment was out of proportions. In order to assert that it was an act of disobedience, we'd need to know that: a. Gregor still used the toy, b. had explicitly forbidden Sandor to touch his toys, and c. he told him so when he caught him. But this is what the text says:

Gregor is five years older than me, the toy was nothing to him, he was already a squire, near six foot tall and muscled like an ox. So I took his knight, but there was no joy to it, I tell you. I was scared all the while, and true enough, he found me. There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed.

Sandor says that "the toy was nothing to him," which means it was a discarded toy he didn't care about. And he also says he was a squire, so already too old and too big to be playing with wooden dolls, which is what toy knights are if one ever looked at a reproduction of period toys in a museum; he was squiring for someone, he'd be playing with swords in a training yard, even with live steel maybe given his six-footer build, and doing other squire duties. Gregor didn't utter an order, or made a petition, nothing; he just took his brother and burnt him, acting just like how GRRM described him, "a murderous brute, and really needs no reason to kill someone."

[DogLover]

ANALYSIS

TRAUMA AND TESTIMONY

The Hand’s tourney, with all its pomp and pageantry, displays of gallantry, tricks and treachery, doesn’t seem at first like a place where any character can be laid bare before us, or where Martin would even consider an appropriate setting for truth-telling. But this is precisely what happens with Sandor’s narrative, a critical development that reveals what it is that haunts the man and, most significantly, a development that for the first time since he is introduced at Winterfell, acts to profoundly humanise him in the reader’s eyes. This is achieved, I will argue, through the literary mode of testimony, an act of bearing witness to the trauma he suffered and survived as a young boy.

<snip>

Wow! So much to catch up on! It's been a chaotic two days, but I should be caught up with reading all of the comments (just by skimming, there's a lot of substance here!) by either later tonight or early tomorrow (I'm playing hooky from work ;) ) and will be able to comment at length. But for the moment, I do want to sing my praises for this lovely and poignant analysis, brashcandy.

I especially enjoyed the context you provided to the interaction between Sandor and Sansa after his testimony. As you noted, this emotionally raw moment humanizes Sandor, since, for the first time, Sandor, while he intended to provide a hard lesson in life, ends up the vulnerable one. The time that lapses before anything is said and Sansa’s inner thoughts—from fear of Sandor, to sadness for him, and then fear for him—also illustrates the emotional intensity, and, through Sansa, the readers begin to understand that there’s far more to this character than initially assumed.

Again, bravo, brash!

[LongRider]

Littlefinger is trying to reproduce his youthful experience with Catelyn, isn't he? Another chance with a more beautiful and supposedly more pliable girl that has the right looks. It won't be complete without someone in the role of a certain tall, dark-haired and gray-eyed Northerner who left some fond memories:

“I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well.”

Renly Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.

“Rather too well,” Littlefinger said. “I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?”

A token of this sort, very memorable indeed:

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

Unbeknownst to him, he's already in transit towards a headlong collision with another tall, dark-haired and gray-eyed man that looks like a Northerner, a second Brandon Stark that in his ignorance he can't hope to knock out of combat with a pre-emptive strike, and he formally took the first step here by betting one hundred golden dragons against Sandor. It'd be closing the circle from a narrative standpoint to have this second Brandon Stark open that wound again, literally or figuratively, now that he's so sure he finally has his second Catelyn.

I really like your thinking here!

I think this is making too much of what's essentially a normal childish behaviour and juxtaposing a reasoning behind the action that the text doesn't support, because this would mean Gregor is punishing his brother for disobedience and it transfers the blame to Sandor even if the punishment was out of proportions. In order to assert that it was an act of disobedience, we'd need to know that: a. Gregor still used the toy, b. had explicitly forbidden Sandor to touch his toys, and c. he told him so when he caught him. But this is what the text says:

Gregor is five years older than me, the toy was nothing to him, he was already a squire, near six foot tall and muscled like an ox. So I took his knight, but there was no joy to it, I tell you. I was scared all the while, and true enough, he found me. There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed.

Sandor says that "the toy was nothing to him," which means it was a discarded toy he didn't care about. And he also says he was a squire, so already too old and too big to be playing with wooden dolls, which is what toy knights are if one ever looked at a reproduction of period toys in a museum; he was squiring for someone, he'd be playing with swords in a training yard, even with live steel maybe given his six-footer build, and doing other squire duties. Gregor didn't utter an order, or made a petition, nothing; he just took his brother and burnt him, acting just like how GRRM described him, "a murderous brute, and really needs no reason to kill someone."

I see what you're saying about disobedient ~vs~ normal behaviour. I will argue that as a man grown, he did use this experience to become aware of the sociopathic behavior that came to the fore from Joff after Joff became king. Joff was no longer the spoiled prince, but more and more behaved in a depraved way that may very well reminded Sandor of his brother. Also, Joff's actions may have put him on the 'alert' to be hyper aware of this.

[brashcandy]

I especially enjoyed the context you provided to the interaction between Sandor and Sansa after his testimony. As you noted, this emotionally raw moment humanizes Sandor, since, for the first time, Sandor, while he intended to provide a hard lesson in life, ends up the vulnerable one. The time that lapses before anything is said and Sansa’s inner thoughts—from fear of Sandor, to sadness for him, and then fear for him—also illustrates the emotional intensity, and, through Sansa, the readers begin to understand that there’s far more to this character than initially assumed.

Again, bravo, brash!

Thanks, DL :) I'm glad you mentioned the silence that stretches for so long as it communicates the gravity of Sandor's testimony and what it took for him to speak it for the first time. Sansa's touch seems to bring him back to the moment, to establish a caring connection that's been so lacking in his life.

[Avlonnic]

#136 Milady of York: I thank you for the gracious welcome.

Milady and LongRider: You made very pertinent points about Gregor and Sandor. Gregor is reclusive, grim, fearsome and dangerous. Due to the introduction bias we discussed last week, I was prepared for something similar from Sandor: grim, intimidating, wedded to his job like a Kingsguard. However, we learn that Sandor is not like Gregor. He interacts well socially: he drinks, dices, and visits brothels. He spends time in the training yards with others swordsmen. As you noted, he laughs frequently and oftentimes unselfconsciously.

Of particular interest is the fact that Sandor has fielded many questions about his injury. He tells Sansa: "Most of them, they think it was some battle. A siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath.” Of course he has never confided the truth of his injuries to anyone (until Sansa), but the mere fact that others feel comfortable broaching the topic with Sandor speaks volumes. This is a point of significant deviation between Sandor and Gregor. Very few persons would feel comfortable asking Gregor anything, much less anything so personal.

[Avlonnic]

Much is made of the contrast between Sansa's reverence for the idealized vision of "knighthood" and Sandor's venom toward the reality of knighthood. It seems Sandor once shared Sansa's idealism...until his experiences with Gregor dispelled all the shiny illusions. Sansa is starting down a path where she will learn that life is not a song and most knights are not 'true knights' at all.

There is counterbalance to this 'true knight' dynamic and that is the concept of "true lady". Sansa is determined to behave like a great lady, a true lady, composed and courteous and in full control of herself. She demonstrates this at the tournament, the dinner, and the return to her room. Of the many people with whom Sandor has interacted, I would think Sansa is near the top in terms of the classic "true lady" characteristics and behaviors. Sandor has much disdain for lords and ladies and has seen how false most of the upperclass is. He mocks Sansa ruthlessly about her courtesies because he thinks they are either superficial and worthless. But he is beginning to recognize that Sansa is the real deal, a young, well-bred, genteel lady. She may be 12 years old, but she handled the confrontation with drunken, angry Sandor very well. And the thought that there may yet be a 'true lady' in the world will prove an impetus for Sandor to find the will to change.

There is some evidence that Sandor has already begun to change. He opened up to Sansa in a moment of drunken anger and shared his most intimate secret - and she received it with kindness and trust. How does Sandor feel the next day? Renly states that the Hound has a hungry look this morning. Littlefinger seems to imply that Sandor will not 'bite the hand that feeds him', presumably by letting Jaime win - but I think the Hound is out to best all of these glittering untrue knights. He wins with power and technique, not tricks. Then he plays the hero by saving Loras and is rewarded with gold and the 'love of the commons'. I think Sandor is changing.

[Avlonnic]

Also, a couple of other quick things. First, Sandor sees Sansa safely to her door and tells her if she reveals his secret to anyone, "I'll kill you." Before this particular evening, this would have been frightening. Now that Sansa understands him better, she tends to be fearful for him rather than of him so this would qualify as "Sandorspeak". Interestingly, in the next chapter, before the melee, Robert tells Barristan to "Get out before I kill you." Obviously Robert's threat is toothless; he is not going to kill the Barristan Selmy nor can he - he's too fat and drunk. This reinforces the idea that Sandor's threat should be taken with a grain of salt.

Second, the toy knight caught my attention. Sandor doesn't remember what he got but "it was Gregor's gift I wanted." Sandor describes this man-made knight as marvelous, "all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with string so you can make him fight." This could be an allusion to the gift Gregor will receive in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Robert Strong seems to be a man-made knight complete with "strings" of magic so someone can make him fight. He also will not be a 'true knight' by any definition. Sandor will be glad he did not get Gregor's gift, if this is the case. *shudder*

eta: font

[Lyanna Stark]

Also, a couple of other quick things. First, Sandor sees Sansa safely to her door and tells her if she reveals his secret to anyone, "I'll kill you." Before this particular evening, this would have been frightening. Now that Sansa understands him better, she tends to be fearful for him rather than of him so this would qualify as "Sandorspeak". Interestingly, in the next chapter, before the melee, Robert tells Barristan to "Get out before I kill you." Obviously Robert's threat is toothless; he is not going to kill the Barristan Selmy nor can he - he's too fat and drunk. This reinforces the idea that Sandor's threat should be taken with a grain of salt.

Hah, yes, I like the term "Sandorspeak". We'll see in the following chapters, I think, that he uses it to cover up insecurities and vulnerabilities. I think what he's really telling her is to not embarrass him by telling anyone because it would cause him mortification. As you state, Sansa doesn't seem particularly threatened anymore than Barristan is theatened by Robert either.

Much is made of the contrast between Sansa's reverence for the idealized vision of "knighthood" and Sandor's venom toward the reality of knighthood. It seems Sandor once shared Sansa's idealism...until his experiences with Gregor dispelled all the shiny illusions. Sansa is starting down a path where she will learn that life is not a song and most knights are not 'true knights' at all.

Absolutely. If he didn't once share the idealism, then he would not distance himself from it so forcefully. It will be interesting to see the ACOK chapters and how Sansa's ideals get closer to Sandor when they clash.

It is interesting to contrast Sandor with Jaime, another man who's very distant from the ideals of knighthood and end up struggling with it. While Sandor made a conscious decision to distance himself from what he perceived as false, corrupted and hollow while Jaime's slide away towards "becoming the Smiling Knight" was more gradual and nothing he really paid attention to.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

Of particular interest is the fact that Sandor has fielded many questions about his injury. He tells Sansa: "Most of them, they think it was some battle. A siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath.” Of course he has never confided the truth of his injuries to anyone (until Sansa), but the mere fact that others feel comfortable broaching the topic with Sandor speaks volumes. This is a point of significant deviation between Sandor and Gregor. Very few persons would feel comfortable asking Gregor anything, much less anything so personal.

Great posts Avlonnic! Thanks for pointing this out, another subtlety of difference between the brothers.

Much is made of the contrast between Sansa's reverence for the idealized vision of "knighthood" and Sandor's venom toward the reality of knighthood. It seems Sandor once shared Sansa's idealism...until his experiences with Gregor dispelled all the shiny illusions. Sansa is starting down a path where she will learn that life is not a song and most knights are not 'true knights' at all.

There is counterbalance to this 'true knight' dynamic and that is the concept of "true lady". Sansa is determined to behave like a great lady, a true lady, composed and courteous and in full control of herself. She demonstrates this at the tournament, the dinner, and the return to her room. Of the many people with whom Sandor has interacted, I would think Sansa is near the top in terms of the classic "true lady" characteristics and behaviors. Sandor has much disdain for lords and ladies and has seen how false most of the upperclass is. He mocks Sansa ruthlessly about her courtesies because he thinks they are either superficial and worthless. But he is beginning to recognize that Sansa is the real deal, a young, well-bred, genteel lady. She may be 12 years old, but she handled the confrontation with drunken, angry Sandor very well. And the thought that there may yet be a 'true lady' in the world will prove an impetus for Sandor to find the will to change.

There is some evidence that Sandor has already begun to change. He opened up to Sansa in a moment of drunken anger and shared his most intimate secret - and she received it with kindness and trust. How does Sandor feel the next day? Renly states that the Hound has a hungry look this morning. Littlefinger seems to imply that Sandor will not 'bite the hand that feeds him', presumably by letting Jaime win - but I think the Hound is out to best all of these glittering untrue knights. He wins with power and technique, not tricks. Then he plays the hero by saving Loras and is rewarded with gold and the 'love of the commons'. I think Sandor is changing.

I haven't thought of Sansa as a 'true lady' before, that different thought for me. But looking at the ladies at court-Cersei, later Margery and her grandmother, not many 'true ladies' about. No wonder Sansa stands out.

~~~snip~~~~

Second, the toy knight caught my attention. Sandor doesn't remember what he got but "it was Gregor's gift I wanted." Sandor describes this man-made knight as marvelous, "all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with string so you can make him fight." This could be an allusion to the gift Gregor will receive in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Robert Strong seems to be a man-made knight complete with "strings" of magic so someone can make him fight. He also will not be a 'true knight' by any definition. Sandor will be glad he did not get Gregor's gift, if this is the case. *shudder*

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WOW! The comparison of the toy knight and Robert Strong is something new for me and thanks for bringing it up. Gregor the True Knight. Very scary.

[LongRider]

Going on all three - Jaime, Renly, Sandor - being younger sons, perhaps the symbolism is directed at the fates of their houses in general? Soon enough King Robert will be dead, and that will spark the War of the Five Kings, something that could be represented by the crowd fighting over the scrap of gold. Jaime "golden and dented" in the dirt sounds like foreshadowing for the current condition of House Lannister after their initial triumphs; and Gregor with no helm while Sandor wears his calls forth the headless Gregor at the end of AFFC and his eventual reincarnation into Robert Strong. Foreshadowing of Sandor as head of House Clegane? Not only does Gregor kill his horse, but he kills a stallion. Sandor currently has his own very bad-tempered stallion biting ears and taking names on the QI. If we think of stallions as representative of masculine virility, then the symbolism definitely favours Sandor's resurgence.

So many good posts I almost passed this one. I just wanted to say that I like what you've written here. I think with Jaime, not only is House Lannister 'golden and dented' but Jaime now needs help on many simple tasks since he lost his hand. (the dominant one at that) Being the silly horse nut that I am, I've never forgiven the fictional Gregor for killing his fictional stallion. Not as bad killing Mycha I guess, but almost! LOL!

[brashcandy]

So many good posts I almost passed this one. I just wanted to say that I like what you've written here. I think with Jaime, not only is House Lannister 'golden and dented' but Jaime now needs help on many simple tasks since he lost his hand. (the dominant one at that) Being the silly horse nut that I am, I've never forgiven the fictional Gregor for killing his fictional stallion. Not as bad killing Mycha I guess, but almost! LOL!

Good point on him losing the sword hand. What's also suggestive to me is this bit:

Jaime Lannister was back on his feet, but his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off. The commons were hooting and pointing, the lords and ladies were trying to stifle their chuckles, and failing, and over it all Ned could hear King Robert laughing, louder than anyone. Finally they had to lead the Lion of Lannister off to a blacksmith, blind and stumbling.

Think of where Jaime is in ADWD, led off by Brienne who has told him that the Hound has Sansa. He's figuratively "blind and stumbling" in this situation, and is likely being taken to a meeting with Stoneheart and the BWB/Gendry (blacksmith).

I keep coming back to the virility/rebirth/resurgence theme and it's link to the horses. All the notable men that fight or were to fight with the Hound in the case of Loras, end up losing their seats. Renly and Jaime are unhorsed, the former more violently, and Loras is knocked from his saddle by a deranged Gregor. Jaime is involved in an incestuous relationship with his sister - who incidentally doesn't show up on this final day of the tourney - and even though their relationship has produced three children, it's one that has death and doom written all over it. Renly and Loras are homosexuals so they don't have much interest in procreating with women, and Renly, ironically, ends up being killed by a shadowbaby. Gregor's killing of his stallion has already been noted, and he's on his third wife according to Ned, with still no issue. We even have Littlefinger and his creepy suggestions that Sansa could have been the daughter he had with Cat. Is Martin establishing here a question on legacy and those who will still be "seated" or have their "head" in order to effect productive change in Westeros?

[ornitorrinca]

...

Loras/Sandor makes me think of Sansa's later comparison between the "dog and the rose," and at this stage in the tourney Martin seems to be teasing her romantic options and her varying responses to them.

Yes, it is an interesting juxtaposition as well, that of Jeyne nursing her (as Sansa considers it at that point in time, "impossible") love for someone of a different station - and someone who'll later get quite involved in Sandor's arc. In the rose/dog comparison, it might look like the rose wins out in her mind, but she's seen Loras at Gregor's mercy and only person was capable of saving him... and that person delivered. I agree with Sansa: dogs > roses!

Thank you. That's what I get for trying to ram to many ideas into my head at once...

It also makes a great deal more sense now. So going with Bran's lord's face observation with wearing a façade as an aspect of duty (Aemon's love vs. honor struggle), the helmets can take on some interesting symbolism. Renly gets associated with the knights of summer and he will forsake his duty to his brother Stannis for a crown. He looses a crowning piece of his helmet and the result is infighting among the crowd. Jaime gets stuck in his helmet, his façade of duty which fits with his later attempting to use his duty as a means of redefining his sense of self. Gregor has no sense of duty or struggle with honor, no helm. He casts off his helm and even kills his horse (a knight is a horse with a sword.)

So what does that leave us to make of the Hound's helmet? He wears it in true knight fashion here. Sandor is proud of it as he is of the nickname the Hound which he feels is a mark of honor given the founding tale of his House. It is last used to boil wine to try and heal his wounds and then as a gravestone of sorts that gets stolen. He's left wearing the gravedigger's hood. Mythological hero's trip into the underworld?

I really liked this suggestion. In terms of the three "redemption arc" characters, I see some parallels for this in Jaime's loss of his hand + time spent as a prisoner of the Brave Companions and in Theon's loss of (a lot of) himself + his time as Ramsay's prisoner. All three lost a defining part of themselves [the Hound helm, the sword hand, that smile (or his dick, whatever you think Theon's most identifying character is)] and have gone to the underworld to discover who they really are and what their purpose in life is. At least Sandor's isn't necessarily the "hell" the others have been to.

Very chewy thoughts here, one issue we've not discussed however, is Renly and Jaime both betrayed their brothers; Renly by making a try for the throne after Robert's death, and Jaime, going along with Tywin's punishment of Tyrion for marrying Tysha. Sandor however, was very nearly killed, maimed for life and treated as if he mattered not at all compared to Gregor, does not kill his brother when he a had chance to do it. A chance which would not have been treated as crime in his culture.

He shows that somewhere inside, he just couldn't do it, he couldn't betray his only family member left, or, perhaps something else?

Thoughts?

If he hadn't spoken to Sansa the night before, I'm not convinced both Cleganes would have left the tourney grounds alive. Sansa may have inadvertently saved his life (in the sense of the immediate future, I mean). I don't think his decision to defend Loras and not kill Gregor had so much to do with him being unable to betray the only family member he had left, but that it came directly as a consequence of that conversation and a desire to be better than his brother. Also, while Renly and Jaime both betrayed their brothers, remember that later on, they are betrayed in kind by their brothers (and sister) - Renly by Stannis, resulting in Renly's death and Jaime by Cersei's rejection and Tyrion's lie about Joffrey's death - just as Sandor was betrayed by his brother. By not killing him and also by defeating Renly and Jaime, he distinguishes himself as, maybe not a better person per se, but a stronger-willed man who breaks the mold of "the betrayer getting his comeuppance" that played out with Renly and Jaime.

...OR...These parallels could set up a future settling of the score by Sandor, but only when the time is right and maybe even in keeping with Sansa's prayer for his rage to be gentled. What I am trying to say is that maybe Martin won't provide the crazy violent confrontation so often hoped for by readers, but will still give the much-needed resolution to this conflict in a way we haven't imagined. Anyhow.

...

Second, the toy knight caught my attention. Sandor doesn't remember what he got but "it was Gregor's gift I wanted." Sandor describes this man-made knight as marvelous, "all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with string so you can make him fight." This could be an allusion to the gift Gregor will receive in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Robert Strong seems to be a man-made knight complete with "strings" of magic so someone can make him fight. He also will not be a 'true knight' by any definition. Sandor will be glad he did not get Gregor's gift, if this is the case. *shudder*

eta: font

Duuude. This had never crossed my mind. It's super creepy. The fact that Gregor unhorses Balon Swann, who later is charged with delivering his head to Doran Martell, is a bit of poetic justice for Balon.

[Milady of York]

It also makes a great deal more sense now. So going with Bran's lord's face observation with wearing a façade as an aspect of duty (Aemon's love vs. honor struggle), the helmets can take on some interesting symbolism. Renly gets associated with the knights of summer and he will forsake his duty to his brother Stannis for a crown. He looses a crowning piece of his helmet and the result is infighting among the crowd. Jaime gets stuck in his helmet, his façade of duty which fits with his later attempting to use his duty as a means of redefining his sense of self. Gregor has no sense of duty or struggle with honor, no helm. He casts off his helm and even kills his horse (a knight is a horse with a sword.)

So heartwarming that you finally recognise the utter truth that Stranger deserves a knighthood, Ragnorak.

Gregor's overall track record in the Hand's Tourney is so dismal: murder of a newly-made knight the first day, brutal killing of a warhorse in front of a public that values warhorses highly, and the second day: attempted assassination of a Lord Paramount's son in front of the king, not even apologising or kneeling humbly when called out. And after he leaves, the rape of an innkeeper's daughter for no reason other than he was bothered and then giving her to his men for gang rape, calling her a whore and demanding change. With that reputation, it's a wonder he's even admitted in the lists at the tourneys he goes to.

His actions have a parallel in the Ashford tourney in The Hedge Knight, when Prince Aerion uses trickery to try and win his tilt against Humfrey Hardyng, whom he deliberately chooses over Valarr Targaryen because he's the knight that's performing better and making waves, a crowd favourite:

Late in the day, a brazen fanfare announced the entry of a new challenger to the lists. He rode in on a great red charger whose black bardings were slashed to reveal glimpses of yellow, crimson, and orange beneath. As he approached the viewing stand to make his salute, Dunk saw the face beneath the raised visor, and recognized the prince he'd met in Lord Ashford's stables.

Egg's legs tightened around his neck. "Stop that," Dunk snapped, yanking them apart. "Do you mean to choke me?"

"Prince Aerion Brightflame," a herald called, "of the Red Keep of King's Landing, son of Maekar Prince of Summerhall of House Targaryen, grandson to Daeron the Good, the Second of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

Aerion bore a three-headed dragon on his shield, but it was rendered in colors much more vivid than Valarr's; one head was orange, one yellow, one red, and the flames they breathed had the sheen of gold leaf. His surcoat was a swirl of smoke and fire woven together, and his blackened helm was surmounted by a crest of red enamel flames.

After a pause to dip his lance to Prince Baelor, a pause so brief that was almost perfunctory, he galloped to the north end of the field, past Lord Leo's pavilion and the Laughing Storm's, slowing only when he approached Prince Valarr's tent. The Young Prince rose and stood stiffly beside his shield, and for a moment Dunk was certain that Aerion meant to strike it . . . but then he laughed and trotted past, and banged his point hard against Ser Humfrey Hardyng's diamonds. "Come out, come out, little knight," he sang in a loud clear voice, "it's time you faced the dragon."

Ser Humfrey inclined his head stiffly to his foe as his destrier was brought out, and then ignored him while he mounted, fastened his helm, and took up lance and shield. The spectators grew quiet as the two knights took their places. Dunk heard the clang of Prince Aerion dropping his visor. The horn blew.

Ser Humfrey broke slowly, building speed, but his foe raked the red charger hard with both spurs, coming hard. Egg's legs tightened again. "Kill him!" he shouted suddenly. "Kill him, he's right there, kill him, kill him, kill him!" Dunk was not certain which of the knights he was shouting to.

Prince Aerion's lance, gold-tipped and painted in stripes of red, orange, and yellow, swung down across the barrier. Low, too low, thought Dunk the moment he saw it. He'll miss the rider and strike Ser Humfrey's horse, he needs to bring it up. Then, with dawning horror, he began to suspect that Aerion intended no such thing. He cannot mean to . . .

At the last possible instant, Ser Humfrey's stallion reared away from the oncoming point, eyes rolling in terror, but too late, Aerion's lance took the animal just above the armor that protected his breastbone, and exploded out of the back of his neck in a gout of bright blood. Screaming, the horse crashed sideways, knocking the wooden barrier to pieces as he fell. Ser Humfrey tried to leap free, but a foot caught in a stirrup and they heard his shriek as his leg was crushed between the splintered fence and falling horse.

All of Ashford Meadow was shouting. Men ran onto the field to extricate Ser Humfrey, but the stallion, dying in agony, kicked at them as they approached. Aerion, having raced blithely around the carnage to the end of the lists, wheeled his horse and came galloping back. He was shouting too, though Dunk could not make out the words over the almost human screams of the dying horse. Vaulting from the saddle, Aerion drew his sword and advanced on his fallen foe. His own squires and one of Ser Humfrey's had to pull him back. Egg squirmed on Dunk's shoulders. "Let me down," the boy said. "The poor horse, let me down."

Dunk felt sick himself. What would I do if such a fate befell Thunder? A man-at-arms with a pole-axe dispatched Ser Humfrey's stallion, ending the hideous screams. Dunk turned and forced his way through the press. When he came to open ground, he lifted Egg off his shoulders. The boy's hood had fallen back and his eyes were red. "A terrible sight, aye," he told the lad, "but a squire must needs be strong. You'll see worse mishaps at other tourneys, I fear."

"It was no mishap," Egg said, mouth trembling. "Aerion meant to do it. You saw."

Dunk frowned. It had looked that way to him as well, but it was hard to accept that any knight could be so unchivalrous, least of all one who was blood of the dragon. "I saw a knight green as summer grass lose control of his lance," he said stubbornly, "and I'll hear no more of it. The jousting is done for the day, I think. Come, lad."

There we again have the motifs of duty and honour, and the theme of Cain and Abel that pervade the Cleganes' presence in the Hand's Tourney: a brother observing a brother joust, cheering against the jouster, like Sandor laughs at Gregor's unhorsing. And that brother cheats by striking the horse instead of the knight, dismounting after to finish killing the horse with an axe and being restrained instead. This is taken for an accident by naïve Duncan even though the cheater's brother (who he doesn't know is a prince too) insists that it was no accident, echoing Sandor's insistence that Ser Hugh's death wasn't accidental, and by the end of the incident is vindicated in his version when Lord Ashford will decree Aerion's destrier forfeit to Hardyng and disqualifies the prince for bad faith.

There is counterbalance to this 'true knight' dynamic and that is the concept of "true lady". Sansa is determined to behave like a great lady, a true lady, composed and courteous and in full control of herself. She demonstrates this at the tournament, the dinner, and the return to her room. Of the many people with whom Sandor has interacted, I would think Sansa is near the top in terms of the classic "true lady" characteristics and behaviors. Sandor has much disdain for lords and ladies and has seen how false most of the upperclass is. He mocks Sansa ruthlessly about her courtesies because he thinks they are either superficial and worthless. But he is beginning to recognize that Sansa is the real deal, a young, well-bred, genteel lady. She may be 12 years old, but she handled the confrontation with drunken, angry Sandor very well. And the thought that there may yet be a 'true lady' in the world will prove an impetus for Sandor to find the will to change..

Excellent points all round, Avionnic. Your linking of the toy knight and Gregor is one I'd not seen before, and very interesting!

This "true lady" ideal is one I've mused about before with regard to Sandor, who grew up in a house of men with little to no female influence, since according to GRRM his mother was dead by the time of his burning and he never mentions his sister, which leaves up in the air whether he even remembers her if she died when he was too little. In Casterly and at court, he also had to grow up in a world of men, and yet his liege and the one that has had his loyalty for half his life is a woman: Cersei, the most forceful and dominant of the Lannister litter. And a woman who's so deeply corrupt too, for on the outside she is all glitter, all smiles and charm, and strikingly beautiful too, even her little brother calls her "sweet Cersei," which is part mockery and part truth, because the queen can blind everyone with her charisma and looks, and only those on the insider circle or that work for her know how she is truly like.

The other Westermen lordlings and men-at-arms might be deferential towards the Imp as their overlord's heir presumptive, and to Jaime next; excepting Sandor, who's only deferential towards Cersei and her children, and not so to Tyrion and doesn't fear trouncing the Kingslayer at tournaments if he pleases. It's been Cersei the primary female figure in his life, therefore the model of what ladies are to a boy that had no mother and no sister. Unfortunately, given her two-facedness and the ugliness of her character, this example of "true lady" he's had has been a faulty one, basically the same as his examples of "true knights," and it got reinforced by his living in the royal court, a place where both by necessity and for ambition ladies have to hide their true colours and be diplomatical or false so as not to step on the toes of powerful nobles, or the king himself. Much of what he reproaches Sansa for, her smiles and compliments, is exactly what he knows Cersei uses rather like weapons to get her way, as she herself told Sansa she was "taught" to smile and please as a girl, and is now using it to manipulate together with her sexuality; and as her dog, he'd be aware of that and observed the contrast between the public Queen Cersei with the darker private Cersei, and it must've been eye-opening. It could be said therefore that if Gregor killed his ideals of true knights, Cersei killed his ideals of true ladies.

[Avlonnic]

Jaime Lannister was back on his feet, but his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off. The commons were hooting and pointing, the lords and ladies were trying to stifle their chuckles, and failing, and over it all Ned could hear King Robert laughing, louder than anyone. Finally they had to lead the Lion of Lannister off to a blacksmith, blind and stumbling.

Think of where Jaime is in ADWD, led off by Brienne who has told him that the Hound has Sansa. He's figuratively "blind and stumbling" in this situation, and is likely being taken to a meeting with Stoneheart and the BWB/Gendry (blacksmith).

I keep coming back to the virility/rebirth/resurgence theme and it's link to the horses. All the notable men that fight or were to fight with the Hound in the case of Loras, end up losing their seats. Renly and Jaime are unhorsed, the former more violently, and Loras is knocked from his saddle by a deranged Gregor. Jaime is involved in an incestuous relationship with his sister - who incidentally doesn't show up on this final day of the tourney - and even though their relationship has produced three children, it's one that has death and doom written all over it. Renly and Loras are homosexuals so they don't have much interest in procreating with women, and Renly, ironically, ends up being killed by a shadowbaby. Gregor's killing of his stallion has already been noted, and he's on his third wife according to Ned, with still no issue. We even have Littlefinger and his creepy suggestions that Sansa could have been the daughter he had with Cat. Is Martin establishing here a question on legacy and those who will still be "seated" or have their "head" in order to effect productive change in Westeros?

I, too, was struck by the depiction of Jaime above. As you noted, it foreshadows Jaime being led blindfolded to the blacksmith (Gendry) and to Stoneheart. Everyone high and low is laughing at him. The one thing Tywin always seemed to fear and hate the most was that anyone would laugh at him or the twins. And "his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off." Wow. Jaime's Golden Lannister identity has been twisted and he can't get it off. As we will see in the later read, Sandor will be able to remove his Hound 'helm' and move beyond it (but that is something for the later read.) Note: As I recall, Cersei is at the tournament, disguised as the woman in the commons to whom Jaime blows a kiss.

Your points on younger sons and legacies are fascinating. If Sandor had not bolted from the Blackwater, he would be Lord of Clegane now. We are not told if Gregor left heirs but that seems something that would have been mentioned. I would be surprised: Gregor always seemed to be "Asshai on two legs" - no child would survive there.

[Avlonnic]

Milady and others: re: Gregor, the toy knight. I am delighted if I offered some small kernel that may be a little different! I must humbly credit this reread for it however because I did not remember the toy that Sandor had 'borrowed' was a knight until I started rereading with you. This is very stimulating.

[Lyanna Stark]

Your points on younger sons and legacies are fascinating. If Sandor had not bolted from the Blackwater, he would be Lord of Clegane now. We are not told if Gregor left heirs but that seems something that would have been mentioned. I would be surprised: Gregor always seemed to be "Asshai on two legs" - no child would survive there.

A small nitpick here: while it is indeed completely correct that Sandor would inherit the Clegane lands had he remained alive and loyal to the Lannisters, Gregor is not a Lord, he is a Landed Knight. The main difference being, I believe, that Lords have the right of Pits and Gallows, while Landed Knights do not. There is also the difference in status, which can be of import. However, given the relative land ownership and manpower, some Landed Knights (or Masterly houses) seem to be significantly rich in both (for instance House Templeton, the Green-apple Fossoways and the Glovers), while some Lords are pretty poor (the Selmys seem to have been such a house).

Which makes it interesting how the inheritance would have worked since Sandor is not a knight, so I suppose that would make him Master Clegane? ;)

[Avlonnic]

A small nitpick here: while it is indeed completely correct that Sandor would inherit the Clegane lands had he remained alive and loyal to the Lannisters, Gregor is not a Lord, he is a Landed Knight. The main difference being, I believe, that Lords have the right of Pits and Gallows, while Landed Knights do not. There is also the difference in status, which can be of import. However, given the relative land ownership and manpower, some Landed Knights (or Masterly houses) seem to be significantly rich in both (for instance House Templeton, the Green-apple Fossoways and the Glovers), while some Lords are pretty poor (the Selmys seem to have been such a house).

Which makes it interesting how the inheritance would have worked since Sandor is not a knight, so I suppose that would make him Master Clegane? ;)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Very good points, Lyanna Stark. I have no idea what the title would be, if any. I suppose even minor lords outrank landed knights, but I don't know. (The house is extinct but Sandor may yet come to embrace his inner Ser someday. For now, he finally has the 'elder brother' he always wanted.)

[DogLover]

Phew! It took all last night and a good part of the morning to finally catch up! There's some really great stuff here!

I just want to quickly go back to Milady's post since it relates to Sandor's first demand that Sansa look at him:

That’s true. And yet, for all that his scarred side makes his smiling look terrible, Sandor isn't at all self-conscious about smiling and laughing freely. Going through all his appearances book by book, anyone would be surprised at just how much he tends to laugh and smile, contradicting many assumptions, and it's not always bitter or scornful or defensive, he is seen laughing genuinely too, as we’ll see when we get to the end of this and the second book, where it’s more evident. This scene is the first time Sansa describes his smile as a mockery, and it is informed by her fear rather than by the appearance itself, and works fine contrasting it with what she thinks of Joffrey's lips: in the phase she is currently in, when she fancies herself in love, she dreamily thinks his lips are beautiful; but later when she comes to hate him, she’ll describe them as two fat worms. The inverse is true for Sandor, from calling it a "mockery" of a smile here, she’ll go to taking note of all times when he smiles and laughs, with no trace of a negative thought about its appearance, moreover revealing that for all his complaints that she won't look at his face, she does look at it rather an awful lot and he doesn't realise.

Yes, you're right, she does look at him quite a bit, and when she's adverting her eyes from him, it isn't because she can't bring herself to look, but more practical reasons. When Sandor escorts her back to the Red Keep after the tourney, her eyes are cast downward because she was having a difficult time navigating the terrain: "The ground was rocky and uneven; the flickering light made it seem to shift and move beneath her. She kept her eyes lowered, watching where she placed her feet.” When she feels obligated to speak to him after a long awkward silence, it's implied that she does look at him when she tells herself a "true lady would not notice his face." She was also able to gather her composure and look directly at Ilyn Payne, a man who truly terrifies her. Further into the story, Sansa averts her eyes from him again, but as a futile attempt to hide her identity since she was not supposed to be out of her chambers so late, and again averts her gaze when she's feeling ill and panic stricken. Yet, Sandor interprets this as rejection.

Both Renly and Jaime have references to gold in their dress; Renly has golden antlers on his helm and Jaime is described as glittering from head to heel. Both have their headgear damaged by the Hound, Renly breaks an antler tine and Jaime's helmet is so dented he needed help to remove it. As if to show how little he cares for these golden fancy knights, the Hound throws Renly's golden tine to the commons.

I really like this LongRider, as well as the following observations about the symbolism behind these helms. I also wonder if this in any way symbolizes Sandor's lack of avaricious ambition that breeds violence, and that he himself is a victim of, especially in contrast to Renly and Littlefinger. While Sandor comes from humble origins, his elevated status as the prince's sworn shield, as well as a commander of his own men, is based on merit. He earned it because he worked hard and proved his worth. In contrast, Renly will elevate himself by usurping a crown and betraying a brother, and Littlefinger through political machinations that have dire consequences for Sansa's family and the realm at large.

I also get the impression that Sandor is more interested in winning the joust to prove himself a formidable opponent and the best at what he does, and not so much for the gold and that was a "bugger your gold" moment. While Loras also has a desire to be the best, he does resort to trickery, and taking into consideration Renly's "small honour, but 20,000 golds," very much wanted to win the purse as much as the tourney for the sake of proving himself.

His helm was taken from him by the Elder Brother. This will warrant more discussion when we get to the Quiet Isle, but your question is a good one 'What do we make of the Hounds helmet?'

I'm not sure if Sandor will ever wear the hound helm again, but the thought of Lem Lemoncloak wearing it makes me furious. :bang:

ETA: Up until the conversation about the symbolism of these helms, I've always thought that if Sandor wears the helm again, it would be contradictory to his arc, since, to move forward and heal, he needs to shed the Hound persona.

An another note, I found an enjoyable irony when Joffrey orders his dog--err...Cersie's dog-- to escort Sansa back to the Red Keep, as that's when he first starts to make a break from the Lannisters and, in turn, becomes Sansa's dog, which goes back to "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" foreshadowing. So while Cersie unjustly has Lady killed, she loses her own dog to Sansa beginning with an unwitting Joffrey's orders.

[DogLover]

Much is made of the contrast between Sansa's reverence for the idealized vision of "knighthood" and Sandor's venom toward the reality of knighthood. It seems Sandor once shared Sansa's idealism...until his experiences with Gregor dispelled all the shiny illusions. Sansa is starting down a path where she will learn that life is not a song and most knights are not 'true knights' at all.

There is counterbalance to this 'true knight' dynamic and that is the concept of "true lady". Sansa is determined to behave like a great lady, a true lady, composed and courteous and in full control of herself. She demonstrates this at the tournament, the dinner, and the return to her room. Of the many people with whom Sandor has interacted, I would think Sansa is near the top in terms of the classic "true lady" characteristics and behaviors. Sandor has much disdain for lords and ladies and has seen how false most of the upperclass is. He mocks Sansa ruthlessly about her courtesies because he thinks they are either superficial and worthless. But he is beginning to recognize that Sansa is the real deal, a young, well-bred, genteel lady. She may be 12 years old, but she handled the confrontation with drunken, angry Sandor very well. And the thought that there may yet be a 'true lady' in the world will prove an impetus for Sandor to find the will to change.

There is some evidence that Sandor has already begun to change. He opened up to Sansa in a moment of drunken anger and shared his most intimate secret - and she received it with kindness and trust. How does Sandor feel the next day? Renly states that the Hound has a hungry look this morning. Littlefinger seems to imply that Sandor will not 'bite the hand that feeds him', presumably by letting Jaime win - but I think the Hound is out to best all of these glittering untrue knights. He wins with power and technique, not tricks. Then he plays the hero by saving Loras and is rewarded with gold and the 'love of the commons'. I think Sandor is changing.

Excellent points all round, Avionnic. Your linking of the toy knight and Gregor is one I'd not seen before, and very interesting!

This "true lady" ideal is one I've mused about before with regard to Sandor, who grew up in a house of men with little to no female influence, since according to GRRM his mother was dead by the time of his burning and he never mentions his sister, which leaves up in the air whether he even remembers her if she died when he was too little. In Casterly and at court, he also had to grow up in a world of men, and yet his liege and the one that has had his loyalty for half his life is a woman: Cersei, the most forceful and dominant of the Lannister litter. And a woman who's so deeply corrupt too, for on the outside she is all glitter, all smiles and charm, and strikingly beautiful too, even her little brother calls her "sweet Cersei," which is part mockery and part truth, because the queen can blind everyone with her charisma and looks, and only those on the insider circle or that work for her know how she is truly like.

The other Westermen lordlings and men-at-arms might be deferential towards the Imp as their overlord's heir presumptive, and to Jaime next; excepting Sandor, who's only deferential towards Cersei and her children, and not so to Tyrion and doesn't fear trouncing the Kingslayer at tournaments if he pleases. It's been Cersei the primary female figure in his life, therefore the model of what ladies are to a boy that had no mother and no sister. Unfortunately, given her two-facedness and the ugliness of her character, this example of "true lady" he's had has been a faulty one, basically the same as his examples of "true knights," and it got reinforced by his living in the royal court, a place where both by necessity and for ambition ladies have to hide their true colours and be diplomatical or false so as not to step on the toes of powerful nobles, or the king himself. Much of what he reproaches Sansa for, her smiles and compliments, is exactly what he knows Cersei uses rather like weapons to get her way, as she herself told Sansa she was "taught" to smile and please as a girl, and is now using it to manipulate together with her sexuality; and as her dog, he'd be aware of that and observed the contrast between the public Queen Cersei with the darker private Cersei, and it must've been eye-opening. It could be said therefore that if Gregor killed his ideals of true knights, Cersei killed his ideals of true ladies.

Excellent posts, Avlonnic and Milday. While Sandor outwardly exhibits a masculine strength by embracing violence and posturing behind tough, coarse language, Sansa, in contrast, is kind, courteous, and gentle, yet is the one who possesses a persevering inner strength. Almost every time these two interact, as idealistic as Sansa is initially perceived, she's the one who remains in control of the situation, highlighting Sandor's vulnerability and how emotionally damaged he is.

And, similarly, just as she's a true lady--there's no hypocrisy to her words and actions--Sandor, who continually points out hypocrisy, begins to emerge as the true knight. Going back to Avlonnic's comment, Sandor is drawn to her because he realizes she's the real deal and acts as a catalyst for much needed change.