Colonel Green Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I expect this has been discussed here before at some point, but I couldn't find any recent thread on it: I was reading the Tower of the Hand piece on Luwin as part of their Top 50 characters series that's ongoing, and it ended up focusing my attention on one piece of information about Luwin -- one we already knew, but which I'd never really thought about the implications of before. That being, that he delivered all of Catelyn's children. For the last four, not unusual, but to have delivered Robb he was necessarily at Riverrun at the time of the birth. That being the case, the obvious question is why he was there. We don't know when Luwin became the maester of Winterfell -- only that his predecessor was Walys, he of the infamous "southron ambitions". We don't know when Walys died or retired, or under what circumstances; he may have done so before Lord Rickard died, perhaps well before. A variety of possible explanations present themselves: 1. Luwin was previously Riverrun's maester, and went north with Catelyn.2. Luwin was already Winterfell's maester, and came south either with Ned, or subsequently at Ned's behest.3. Luwin was in the area for whatever reason and ended up supervising the labour under unknown circumstances. Discussing them in order: 1. Purely in isolation, this seems plausible enough, but if that were the case you would expect there would be some evidence of this in Catelyn's POVs, etc. She considers him a valuable counselor, to be sure, but if he was part of her retinue to the extent that he'd previously been part of her household, that seems like it would have come up. Also, and this may purely be a subjective desire on my part, but if he was Riverrun's maester previously that would almost certainly have made him party to Lysa's forced abortion, and I like the good maester too much to think that of him.2. On one level, you could imagine Ned sending his personal physician to supervise his wife's pregnancy, after he learned about it in the field. The principle objections to this would be that we really don't have much evidence of household maesters moving around like that (particularly in what does not appear to ever have been an emergency situation), and for Luwin to go south in the midst of the war would (presumably) leave Winterfell without a maester at a time when the proper running of the household, raven network, etc. was surely very important.3. Basically a remainder category for other proposed solutions. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'd bet on option 2. And it's apparently not that rare and unheard of; after all, Jon Arryn brought his maester with him to King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'd bet on option 2. And it's apparently not that rare and unheard of; after all, Jon Arryn brought his maester with him to King's Landing. Sure, but that was when Jon Arryn moved his household to King's Landing. Robb doesn't take Luwin with him on campaign, conversely, and other castles like Griffin's Roost still have their maesters even when the boss is away. A lot of these problems are caused by GRRM's giving only one maester per household, which really seems insufficient to me, given the breadth of the tasks they perform. Household physician, alone, should be a full-time job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 How about Option 4 - Martin made a mistake? I think it's the most likely one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Sure, but that was when Jon Arryn moved his household to King's Landing. Robb doesn't take Luwin with him on campaign, conversely, and other castles like Griffin's Roost still have their maesters even when the boss is away. A lot of these problems are caused by GRRM's giving only one maester per household, which really seems insufficient to me, given the breadth of the tasks they perform. Household physician, alone, should be a full-time job. True, but I think it's the option that makes most sense. Lord of the North brought his own maester to help his wife bring birth to his son and heir. It sounds more plausible than options 1 and 3 which include maester switching a master he serves (which, AFAIK, we have no examples of ever happening in Westeros). ETA: or this: How about Option 4 - Martin made a mistake? I think it's the most likely one. But assuming he didn't, I think it would be 2) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Ice Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Great catch. I've not seen this discussed before. 1. I think we would have heard of Luwin being previously at Riverrun and then going North to Winterfell with Catelyn.2. I don't think Ned would have dispatched the Winterfell maester to attend a childbirth - even his wife. Maesters seem to stay where they are.3. Do we know the year/date that Luwin was dispatched to be maester of Winterfell? Maybe he was dispatched by the Citadel whilst Catelyn was pregnant there with Robb, attended the birth, then continued on the Winterfell either with her, or alone. 4. Martin made a mistake??!! No. no, no no nooooooo! 3 is stretching a long bow, I know. I looked on the Wiki and there was nothing there that would add to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 True, but I think it's the option that makes most sense. Lord of the North brought his own maester to help his wife bring birth to his son and heir.. I don't know about that, this move seems somewhat insulting to his father-at-law. It basically implies Hoster's maester wasn't good enough. Plus Cat would be more comfortable with a maester she has known for a while than some new guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slender Aimry Hill Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I think the answer is probably cock up but that's dull, so... consider Dragonstone with its spare master, Pylos come to replace Cressen once he dies. Perhaps Luwin was Walys's spare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 True, but I think it's the option that makes most sense. Lord of the North brought his own maester to help his wife bring birth to his son and heir. It sounds more plausible than options 1 and 3 which include maester switching a master he serves (which, AFAIK, we have no examples of ever happening in Westeros). We don't have any examples of it, but I assume that "maester-switching" must happen, since Luwin is described as being a fairly old man and he can't have been serving in Winterfell for longer than two decades, at most (Ned's tenure plus perhaps some of Rickard's, given that Walys is blamed by Barbrey Dustin for Rickard's southern marriage alliances -- which, true or not, would indicate he was around when they were made). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamnDirtyApe Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Aren't there two maesters at Dragonstone when Cressen tries the poison trick on Melisandre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slender Aimry Hill Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Yes. I meant, Pylos is sent in advance so that he can take over once Cressen has died. Maybe Walys and Luwin had a similar arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't know about that, this move seems somewhat insulting to his father-at-law. It basically implies Hoster's maester wasn't good enough. Plus Cat would be more comfortable with a maester she has known for a while than some new guy.We don't have any examples of it, but I assume that "maester-switching" must happen, since Luwin is described as being a fairly old man and he can't have been serving in Winterfell for longer than two decades, at most (Ned's tenure plus perhaps some of Rickard's, given that Walys is blamed by Barbrey Dustin for Rickard's southern marriage alliances -- which, true or not, would indicate he was around when they were made). :unsure: Now I'm reconsidering.So, Luwin would (presumably) be someone who knew Cat and was trusted by Hoster (Lord of RR, where Cat had given birth)? Now I'm even inclined to speculate he was maybe RR maester's spare or apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Almost certainly a minor mistake. Luwin delivered all Cat's children but Robb. There is no way Ned would have deprived Winterfell of its maester during the war. Riverun had its own maester who unlike Luwin knew Catelyn and she was familiar with him. On a side note. What do we know about Maester Luwin's background? Where he came from, his family etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 On a side note. What do we know about Maester Luwin's background? Where he came from, his family etc.? Nothing, which is why we have to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Luwin Lannister is histories greatest villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.