Ukraine 17: I really wanted to use the "Where's Putin" subtitle, dang it.

[Dicer]

Tell me Dicer, what is your opinion of Igor Strelkov and his proclaimed goal of Russia in the borders of 1939 (post invasion of Poland)? Because the way I see it, Ukraine is fighting fire with fire. Certainly not an ideal situation, but neo-fascists are fighting on both sides in this conflict. And unlike Russia, Ukraine didn't invade and occupy parts of another country.

I mean, in principle I do agree that it's a bad idea to arm and train fascist forces because you have to be very naive to believe that they will just put down their arms, much less their ideology, after the war with Russia is over. OTOH, there is an understandable desire not to be overrun by Russian forces, so in the short term, there is not much of a choice other than make do with the men you have and hope (probably in vain) that this choice doesn't come round to bite you in the ass.

My opinion is that if one plays with fire then there is a 99 % chance that one gets burned. Look, history has shown us, again and again and again, that supporting and encouraging some of the worst elements of society is not going to turn out good.

What has Al Qaeda and ISIS told us? That if we arm and fund radicals and extremists it's going to lead to hell. Literally. Syria and the middle east is hell on earth right now. Why was Al Qaeda created? For the same reason the Neo-Nazis are being trained now. Do you think training and funding the radical extremists in Afghanistan to take on the Russians was the right decision?

This whole thing reminds me of Carter's National security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski who was ordered to empower Muslim extremists in Central Asia and trick the Soviet Union into an invasion of Afghanistan.

In a 1998 interview in Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski boasted, “That secret operation was an excellent idea. Its objective was to lead the Russian to the Afghan trap, and you want me to regret it? The very same day the Soviets crossed the Afghan border I wrote the following to President Carter: This is our chance to give Russia its Viet Nam.” The reporter then asked, “Aren’t you sorry either for favoring Islamic fundamentalism and providing weapons and consultancies to future terrorists?” Without hesitation Brzezinski responded, “What is the most important thing when you look at world history, the Taliban or the fall of the Soviet empire? Some excited Islamists or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?” Brzezinski clearly was convinced that his 1979 policy was correct. Winning the “Cold War” was all that mattered back then.

http://www.invisiblehistory.com/trailing-the-fox/

Turns out the excited Islamists managed to cause more damage to the US and the rest of the world (Causing havoc in Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya) than the Soviet Union ever did.

If supporting Neo Nazis is the only choice available in Ukraine, then don't you think people should pause and rethink their strategy? Do you really want a government in Ukraine that has neo-nazi fascist elements in it? What about the non-white folks and immigrants there? Do what they want count for anything?

Tell me this Alarich. Do you think Neo-Nazis (Who want a white, racially pure society: No Jews, no Muslims) are better than eastern Ukraine breaking off or becoming part of Russia? Do you think eastern Ukrainians would prefer to be under Neo-Nazis or the Russians?

[Alarich]

Actually, I do believe that most minorities are currently better off in Ukraine than in Russia. There's no guarantee that this might not change, although I don't believe it will in the forseeable future. I have also made my position with regards to the armament of fascist forces clear but to spell it out again: I believe that it is the lesser of two evils. Arming fascist to maintain the territorial integrity and to defend against an attack is not ideal, but it is better than letting Russian fascist just take out chunks of your country.

But you have not answered my question and it makes me wonder why. What do you think of the ideology of Igor Strelkov and the Russians that are fighting for him in Ukraine?

[Arakan]

Now here's a statement more naive than 'OMG Russians are hiring Internet trolls ! Who could have imagined ? '

whatever man...:)

[Arakan]

Actually, I do believe that most minorities are currently better off in Ukraine than in Russia. There's no guarantee that this might not change, although I don't believe it will in the forseeable future. I have also made my position with regards to the armament of fascist forces clear but to spell it out again: I believe that it is the lesser of two evils. Arming fascist to maintain the territorial integrity and to defend against an attack is not ideal, but it is better than letting Russian fascist just take out chunks of your country.

But you have not answered my question and it makes me wonder why. What do you think of the ideology of Igor Strelkov and the Russians that are fighting for him in Ukraine?

Well Alarich, as long as it is against evil Ivan, evth is ok I guess :).

Basically the same mindset as those in Western Europe who initially supported Hitler and a strong Germany because you know, Nazis were supposed to be "the lesser evil" than the "Ivans"...

Such statements you did are ESPECIALLY shameful because you are a German...

@Dicer: very well said

[Malik Ambar]

After The Taliban, is the non-state actors gameplay still in use ? Legit query

EDIT : I'm asking specifically for the US post 9/11 , is the whole ' use smaller but dangerous factions' tactic still used ?

EDIT 2 : And yes, I know the US didn't create the Taliban. What I mean is now that it is known that said tactic can have results as drastic as Taliban

[Dicer]

But you have not answered my question and it makes me wonder why. What do you think of the ideology of Igor Strelkov and the Russians that are fighting for him in Ukraine?

I do not know much about Igor Strelkov. You have to give me time to make sure he is not a neo-nazi white supremacist or secretly murders babies.

But if his ideology is expanding Russian territory while the neo-nazis want a racially pure Ukraine, then I would go with Igor as being the lesser of two evils. Does that answer your question?

I would rather live under someone who annexes my country, BUT, affords me the same rights as everyone else in that country than live under someone who wants to kill me and everyone else like me because I am not white.

To rephrase, if I had to chose between Ukrainian Neo-Nazis (who hold the same views of racial superiority as a Nazi Germany) and Russia than I would chose Russia.

I see more of a chance of the Neo-Nazis getting power in Ukraine than getting power in Russia due to the mess that is Ukraine and the support they are receiving from the government and the west . And if that happens, the minorities in Ukraine are fucked. And the rest of the world will not care much about them.

I think consorting with evil is only going to result in disastrous consequences. As history has shown us time and again. But its going to be the Ukrainians who are going to bear the brunt of all this as they are doing right now in this geopolitical fight between the west and Russia.

And you have not answered my question. Do you think eastern Ukrainians would prefer to be under Neo-Nazis (supported by a government they did not elect) or the Russians?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dicer,

This is what Igor Strelkov did:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine/511584.html

From the article:

Russian national Igor Strelkov, a former commander of pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, has claimed personal responsibility for unleashing the conflict in which 4,300 people have been killed since April.

"I was the one who pulled the trigger of this war," Strelkov said in an interview published Thursday with Russia's Zavtra newspaper, which espouses imperialist views.

"If our unit hadn't crossed the border, everything would have fizzled out like in [the Ukrainian city of] Kharkiv, like in Odessa," Strelkov, who uses that nom-de-guerre meaning "Shooter" to replace his last name Girkin, was quoted as saying.

"There would have been several dozen killed, burned, detained. And that would have been the end of it. But the flywheel of the war, which is continuing to this day, was spun by our unit. We mixed up all the cards on the table," he said.

Following Russia's annexation of Crimea this spring, clashes between pro-Ukrainian and pro-Moscow activists broke out in the cities of Kharkiv and Odessa, with more than 40 people killed in a fire in Odessa in early May.

Since then, the two cities have remained largely peaceful, and most of the fighting between rebels and government forces has been limited to the eastern Luhansk and Donetsk regions.

Strelkov's interview was published the same day the United Nations released a report highlighting the involvement of Russian fighters in the eastern Ukraine conflict, which has resulted in the deaths of more than 4,300 people since mid-April.

"The continuing presence of a large amount of sophisticated weaponry, as well as foreign fighters that include servicemen from the Russian Federation, directly affects the human rights situation in the east of Ukraine," the report said.

But for Strelkov Ukraine would not be in a position were it needed Neo-fascists to fight for Ukraine. Still think he's the lesser of two of evils?

[Dicer]

Dicer,

This is what Igor Strelkov did:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine/511584.html

From the article:

But for Strelkov Ukraine would not be in a position were it needed Neo-fascists to fight for Ukraine. Still think he's the lesser of two of evils?

For some strange reason, I am not able to access that link. The moscow times. Reliable news source is it?

Yes, I still think he is the lesser of two evils mainly because he sounds like a nutjob who is bragging about starting the war and because for some reason, I have more of an aversion to white supremacist Neo-Nazis.

Is Igor still involved in this conflict? Do you believe that he single handedly started this conflict and brought Neo-Nazis into it, by crossing some line?

I will repeat. I think the Russians are the lesser evil than Neo-Nazis. I don't think Igor is going to be in charge of anything if eastern Ukraine splits or comes under Russia. On the other hand I think that there is a very good chance for Ukrainian Neo-Nazis to be in authoritative positions and that is a really scary proposition. They are getting weapons and training from Americans. Who else got weapons and training from Americans? Members belonging to Al Qaeda and ISIS

I can't believe that I have to expound on the dangers of Nazi ideology!

[Dicer]

Ser Scot A. Ellison,

Do you think the Russians are worse than Ukrainian Neo-Nazis? Do you think collaborating with Neo-Nazis is the right way to go?

And what do you think about Obama sending American soldiers to train the Neo-Nazi front that is fighting the Separatists? Do you think the separatists are wrong when they claim that Obama supports a Nazi front? After all they would be fighting against American trained Neo-Nazis.

[Shryke]

Oh, I am not surprised. The US government has supported and worked with some of the most vile, mass murdering and torturing regimes and despots around the world to further their foreign policy goals. A few, white supremacist Neo-Nazis added to that list is nothing.

And if these Neo-Nazis create problems in the future in their quest for racial purity , oh well. It's what they had to work with you see. Americans will shrug it off, like they shrug off all the misery and suffering caused in other parts of the world by American support for some of the worst elements of society (ISIS and Al Qaeda to look at just two examples). Nothing new here.

I just brought this up because some naive posters here were shocked, shocked! by the notion that the US, and especially Obama would support Neo-Nazis.

Well, it turns out that the Black, left of center President Obama is not only supporting the Neo-Nazi front in their fight against the separatists, he has send his men to train them and given them American humvees and drones.

You seem to be making a great deal more out of this then what is actually being reported. The people they are training include neo-nazis, not consist solely of them. Given the situation on the ground, you kinda have to live with that since there's horrible groups fighting on both sides. It's what happens when you start a war like this one.

No one is shocked by this, we are just rolling our eyes that you think this implies the US, or even Obama, actually support neo-nazis rather then just participate in deals which can include them. That's foreign policy for you. You can't get anywhere without dealing with shit like this.

The implication that this will lead to, what, ISIS for nazis or something is just rather silly.

Like, shit dude, American didn't help enable ISIS's rise by training anyone, they did it by toppling the Iraqi state and starting a brutal sectarian civil war. There are parallels here, but they are not the ones you think.

[Dicer]

You seem to be making a great deal more out of this then what is actually being reported. The people they are training include neo-nazis, not consist solely of them. Given the situation on the ground, you kinda have to live with that since there's horrible groups fighting on both sides. It's what happens when you start a war like this one.

No one is shocked by this, we are just rolling our eyes that you think this implies the US, or even Obama, actually support neo-nazis rather then just participate in deals which can include them. That's foreign policy for you. You can't get anywhere without dealing with shit like this.

The implication that this will lead to, what, ISIS for nazis or something is just rather silly.

Yes and you are here as expected to roll your eyes at the normalcy of it all.

Oh, the US tortures people? Roll eyes, so what's new?

Oh, the US made an anti-Arab racist propaganda movie? Roll eyes, so what's new?

Oh, the US supports Nazis? Roll eyes, so what's new?

It's all just normal foreign policy shit. Why are people complaining? Who cares?

Yeah, Obama is just sending money, weapons and training for the Neo-Nazis! Who said anything about him supporting Neo Nazis?! It's like Obama sending money and weapons to Egyptian dictator Sisi. It's totally fine, because Obama does not support him. He just likes to send him things.

I am sure the fact that Obama does not 'really' support Neo-Nazis or brutal dictators despite sending them things really makes a difference to the Ukrainians and Egyptians. Must warm their hearts that Obama does not support these assholes despite training Nazis or sending weapons to kill them.

Hilarious.

Yeah, no big deal. Arming and training radical extremists before did not lead to anything (only four failed states and 9/11), so we will train radical extremists in Ukraine. It's silly to even assume anything bad can happen! History has taught us it's all cool.

On the other hand, Putin is the evilest man who ever exists because he invaded Crimea, don't you know? This is not normal foreign policy. This is just wrong!

Like, shit dude, American didn't help enable ISIS's rise by training anyone, they did it by toppling the Iraqi state and starting a brutal sectarian civil war. There are parallels here, but they are not the ones you think.

Like shit dude, maybe you should go online and read some reports? American funding (Funneled through Saudi Arabia and Qatar) and training of Syrian rebels fighting Assad is partly responsible for ISIS. Some of these so called 'moderate' fighters are those who went on to join ISIS. And a recent report by ABC show that American trained forces fighting against ISIS are also into head chopping and torture.

Also Al Qaeda is causing havoc in Libya, they got into Iraq and they are fighting in Syria and Yemen. Who created Al Qaeda?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dicer,

While I acknowlege there are Neo-fascist paramilitary groups fighting against the Russian invasion of the Donbass who have been armed by the Ukrainian government is it your contention that the parties in control of Ukraine, outside the Donbass and Crimea, and the Ukrainian government are themselves neo-fascist/neo-nazi?

[Shryke]

Yes and you are here as expected to roll your eyes at the normalcy of it all.

Oh, the US tortures people? Roll eyes, so what's new?

Oh, the US made an anti-Arab racist propaganda movie? Roll eyes, so what's new?

Oh, the US supports Nazis? Roll eyes, so what's new?

It's all just normal foreign policy shit. Why are people complaining? Who cares?

Yeah, Obama is just sending money, weapons and training for the Neo-Nazis! Who said anything about him supporting Neo Nazis?! It's like Obama sending money and weapons to Egyptian dictator Sisi. It's totally fine, because Obama does not support him. He just likes to send him things.

Hilarious.

Yeah, no big deal. Arming radical extremists before did not lead to anything, so we will train radical extremists in Ukraine. It's silly to even assume anything bad can happen! History has taught has its all cool.

It's really not that big a deal, no. The Ukraine is in desperate need of security forces, and trained ones, in order to maintain any semblance of law and order within it's borders. Providing training to those forces isn't that big a deal or even much of a commitment. That some of those forces are awful people is just what happens in a chaotic warzone. This is what happens in foreign policy. If you never dealt with people who'd done or believed shitty things, you'd never deal with anyone.

There were already organized groups like this running around with weapons, including neo-nazi ones. It's a big part of what's keeping the Ukrainian side going in many ways. Training them is not a huge deal from where they are now in terms of potential repercussions. I mean, the training from what information we have "is designed to teach soldiers in the battalions first aid, battlefield tactics and how to defend against being hit by mortar fire and missiles". Scary!

On the other hand, Putin is the evilest man who ever exists because he invaded Crimea, don't you know?

In terms of who is responsible here, the people who started the invasion/civil war are certainly far more responsible then the people training security forces to try and deal with the chaos, yes. These two things aren't even really comparable in terms of scope.

Like shit dude, maybe you should go online and read some reports? American funding (Funneled through Saudi Arabia and Qatar) and training of Syrian rebels fighting Assad is partly responsible for ISIS. Some of these so called 'moderate' fighters are those who went on to join ISIS. And a recent report by ABC show that American trained forces fighting against ISIS are also into head chopping and torture.

I have read articles/reports/etc on the subject. That's why I'm pointing out that any training received via US dollars is basically meaningless in comparison to the civil war the US started by invading Iraq in terms of the creation of ISIS. (Which goes right back to what I just said above.)

This is just your latest thing to get hysterical about not some hugely meaningful or even unprecedented thing.

[Dicer]

Dicer,

While I acknowlege there are Neo-fascist paramilitary groups fighting against the Russian invasion of the Donbass who have been armed by the Ukrainian government is it your contention that the parties in control of Ukraine, outside the Donbass and Crimea, and the Ukrainian government are themselves neo-fascist/neo-nazi?

Ser Scot A Ellison,

Instead of deflecting, I would like you to answer my questions, as I have answered yours.

Do you think the Russians are worse than Ukrainian Neo-Nazis? Do you think collaborating with Neo-Nazis is the right way to go?

And what do you think about Obama sending American soldiers to train the Neo-Nazi front that is fighting the Separatists? Do you think the separatists are wrong when they claim that Obama supports a Nazi front? After all they would be fighting against American trained Neo-Nazis.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dicer,

Ideologically, the Neo-fascists are worse. Practically speaking the Russian Imperialists who are in control of one of the largest militaries and nuclear stockpiles on Earth are worse because they shown a willingness to invade other Nation-States to further their ideology.

Now are the Neo-fascists/Neo-nazi's in control of Ukraine's government, or not?

[Alarich]

I wonder Arakan, where you got the high horse on which you come riding into every GC-thread so far. Maybe as a German, you feel some kind of desperate need to assert your and your countries moral superiority in every instance. As for me, I am German, but from time to time I allow myself to have an opinon that is independent of the random place I was born. I don't owe my place of bith a certain opinion. Maybe, just maybe, that would do you some good as well. But then again, your posting history in GC so far leaves little to expect other than singing the praises of Germany, mixed with you all too obvious anti-Americanism.

Maybe it's okay for you that Russia is opressing ethnic and other minorities and they are invading other countries. Maybe you are okay with guys like Igor Strelkov, because hey they are fighting NAZIS. Ohhhh. The root of all evil. Well, too bad the Russians are basically the same, only their leader Strelkov wants to invade and occupy not only Ukraine but all of Eastern Europe. And these guys are trained and equiped by Russia and they get far more than just some 4x4 vehicles.

But as it goes: suum cuique.

I do recognize the dangers that are there, but as long as the fascist don't rule in Kiev and as long as I believe that they can be contained, they are absolutely the lesser evil between the unchecked Russian fascist who basically want to annex new "Lebensraum" and the Ukrainian fascist who defend theirs.

Btw. I don't know what Iran has to to with this

[Horza]

The amazing thing is how the classic Soviet anti-fascist line is resurrected totally unironically and without any reflection on certain Kremlin accomodations with palingenetic ultranationalists past and present.

[Galactus]

Turns out the excited Islamists managed to cause more damage to the US and the rest of the world (Causing havoc in Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya) than the Soviet Union ever did.

Bollocks. The scale of carnage the USSR was involved in is *massively* greater than anything the the islamists have done. There's just no comparison.

[Lightysnake88]

Have Islamists pulled off anything comparable to the Holodomor yet?

[Galactus]

Have Islamists pulled off anything comparable to the Holodomor yet?

Nope. And heck, even if we limit it to the purges of the post-war era in the East Bloc, they USSR still has a comfortable lead.