Jon snows death

[sj4iy]

Please try & maintain a little dignity & present a consistent argument...You know that on the previous page of this thread you were arguing that Jon Snow is still alive... Now you are saying that it is not a spoiler that Jon Snow is dead & has warged into Ghost...

However, I do appreciate you flipping sides & supporting my conclusion, I guess I presented a convincing argument...

Stop with the insults, they make you look petty.

And I never once contradicted myself, in fact. Where does it say that a warg HAS to be dead to warg his animal? Jon's not dead, imo- but that doesn't mean he's not hurt, or that he won't need to warg Ghost to help him survive. So yeah, nothing contradictory in those two statements at all.

[Green Hereseer]

It is almost painfully obvious that Jon would most likely warg into Ghost

Yep.

The situation at the Wall and the Nights Watch, must also undergo some significant change after this action.

Double yep. Whole point of such plot events is to set up and release pressure. Something different is coming post-assassination.

I just dont really think we another undead person, and I dont really see why it would be interesting to read the perspective of a wolf on long term basis.

(The rare) triple-yep! Jon is coming back as a full, if injured human. But prior to that, we got some spirit-quest-action a'comin': presumably learning things from Bran and the Weir-net (aka C/OLD Gods!). Some power-reveal. Maybe even some parentage-reveal.

Good times... except for Jon, everyone at the Wall, and almost everyone on Planetos.

Thank goodness we don't have any problems here on Earth.

[unitron]

...

Also, bringing up 'medieval times' is irrelevant. This isn't a historical novel.

...

The relevance is the similar level of medical knowledge and abilities.

[Valyrian Blade]

So it's been confirmed? What did they say?

Kit Harrington who plays Jon snow was asked something along the lines of "what character would you like to be in GoT?"

He said a warg, because he'll like to warg inside of animals and one of the producers said "Season 6 Kit, season 6"

[sj4iy]

The relevance is the similar level of medical knowledge and abilities.

Not really. They are actually more advanced medically than medieval times. Ned suffered a compound fracture and didn't lose his leg or his life, for example. They also had plaster, which was most definitely not around back in those days.

So my point still stands.

[addicted to snow]

Stop with the insults, they make you look petty.

And I never once contradicted myself, in fact. Where does it say that a warg HAS to be dead to warg his animal? Jon's not dead, imo- but that doesn't mean he's not hurt, or that he won't need to warg Ghost to help him survive. So yeah, nothing contradictory in those two statements at all.

No insults, just stating the facts... & yes, you did contradict yourself...

On one page you argue that Jon is still alive... On the next page you argue that he is dead & gone into ghost...

inconsistent arguments... I guess when you realize that you wrong, you just switch sides...

[bemused]

Bemused-- what is the different outcome you refer to? I think Jon warging into Ghost when we first see him in WoW is completely compatible with virtually any other Jon Snow end-game. His body could be magic-fixed by Mel and he could go on to be AA or ride a dragon. Or it could be someting way further afield (read: unlikely): he could stay a wolf, warg Hodor, or he could take over Stannis' body before this is over for all I know. I'm just saying the Varamyr thing is pointing to what's next: being Ghost for at least a while.

Also-- I never said the ADwD prologue is cliche. I think it's awesome, particularly in the call-back to it later when Arya is dreaming as the Night Wolf. What I said was that the R+L=J and similar theories are often considered passe on this site, but would not be to a casual reader. I think GRRM is insanely smart, but is generally writing the broad plot point with casual readers in mind, not us mega-fans.

Also, pt.2-- What are the ambiguities in the attack, other than the mystery of what happens after it? I've read it a few times, but I remember finding it pretty straight-forward. I'm genuinely curious what seems open to interpretation besides whether or not he survives and if so in what state.

I don't think Jon is dead and probably not even wounded beyond the point of being able to rally and fight back (as he did against Iron Emmett) . Why has GRRM given us examples of this unusual strength triggered by anger in almost every ( if not every) book ? ..(I could go into a lot more detail)

Jon was still conscious as of the last word in the chapter.

There have been at least two clues to suggest that he was wearing mail under his outer clothing at the time...and it would be only logical to do so.

1) The half finished mail shirt Sam sees on "his" workbench in AFFC, well after Noye's death and Jon taking over Noye's quarters. They had become Jon's quarters as LC .( Besides, we're not told in what way it was half finished, and it wouldn't necessarily take a blacksmith to complete it.)

2) Jon's exchange with Val while on their way to Selyse..

“This queen of yours must be fierce if the legs of grown men give out beneath them when they meet her. Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? These clothes were given to me by Dalla, I would sooner not get bloodstains all over them.”

“If words drew blood, you might have cause to fear. I think your clothes are safe enough, my lady.”

... Yes, it's banter - but based on what would be common sense in their environment - Val's comment tells us that its wise to wear mail when facing someone fierce, whom you don't know, or might have cause to mistrust... Jon's reply tells us that in this particular case, words are the worst she'd have to fear.

Wouldn't it be natural that he would take some precaution in cases where the might actually be in danger, e.g. in Tormund's camp, when the wildlings come through, in Molestown... in the shieldhall? (All places where he might have faced worse than words.)

.. Should we assume he totally disregards Mel's warnings, when he knows himself, that he has enemies?

And though we can't hear the characters' inflections, it's even possible that Val knows Jon is wearing mail at the time.. Perhaps the stress would be on .."Should I have dressed in mail..." ("like you" - understood)..

I think Jon would indeed have to be a "green boy", if he wasn't wearing any when the attack occurred.

As to your Pt. 2 , I've broken the attack scene down on a few other threads ( and other posters have, too).. I'll try to find a link if you like , but it's long, so for now, just to skim...

There's ambiguity in whether or not Bowen's knife penetrated deeply, due to the possibility of mail and the fact that Jon had to "wrench it free" from something (It was a belly wound . What was offering resistance? Why did Bowen "pull" his hand away, and why did the knife it stay put? It suggests he was trying to pull the knife out, but failed.)

There's ambiguity in whether or not the third blow was actually from a knife, since Jon couldn't see it.

It's not clear whether a fourth knife actually struck him or whether he just expected one, and it's not clear whether Jon's whispered, "Ghost," is a call, a wish, a plea .. or a greeting or identification, recognising that Ghost has entered the scene..

Jon's presence lent stregth to Ghost in ACoK. Couldn't Ghost do the same for Jon, now?

In the Jon re-read thread in the general ASoIaF forum, there was a good deal of discussion about Jon continually finding a third way when presented with tough either/or decisions. Here, many people seem to think ,

1) Jon is dead, and will move to his second life, but be able to return as a result of being resurrected by Mel .. or

2) ..is seriously wounded and comatose, but will spend that time warged into Ghost (and perhaps still healed by Mel a la Victarion by Moqorro). In keeping with Jon's "finding another way" pattern, I think GRRM wil present us with another third way for Jon, the berserker option... for which he has laid the ground work across the series, not just back in the prologue.

I think George writes with both the casual and in-depth reader in mind (and would probably like to turn the former into the latter, hence all the clues and puzzles).. and he likes to surprise all his readers along the way.

[bemused]

Kit Harrington who plays Jon snow was asked something along the lines of "what character would you like to be in GoT?"

He said a warg, because he'll like to warg inside of animals and one of the producers said "Season 6 Kit, season 6"

Did you watch it ??... The whole thing was a joke based an inadvertent double entendre by Kit. He said he'd like to be a warg, "to put myself into a wolf.." then realised what it sounded like..Everyone was laughing (the whole panel and the audience picking up on the sexual interpretation), and that's when Dan promised it for season 6.

No spoiler, just fun.

[Jennifer of Oldstones]

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold

Those three periods at the end mark a pause. It's a classic cliff hanger.

I've come to think that Jon won't even lose consciousness between the end of this chapter and where his story picks up in TWoW , but he may very well enter into an altered state of conciousness, as he does in his sparring bout with Iron Emmett.

This isn't just a wild guess - I think there have been many hints given that would lead to this conclusion.

Taken all together, there's reason to believe that :

1) Jon is wearing mail under his outer clothing , and Bowen's dagger gets caught in it, rendering that wound less serious than it would have been, otherwise.

2) Jon takes note of 4 men together in the shieldhall. 2 of those men attack him with daggers . Of course he would assume the other 2 would follow suit , so he expects a third and fourth dagger.

3) Something ( Jon can't see what it is) hits him between the shoulderblades - Don't forget he falls to his knees just before or as that third strike is being delivered (and don't forget the likelihood of mail). That strike may not have done anything more than perhaps winding him and pushing him face first into the snow, which would feel cold. ( I ,too, assume there was a third knife , but am very dubious that it landed a clean hit)

4) From the time he notices the wound from Bowen "smoking", we are not told specifically what Jon can see, only what he feels, and (some of) what he thinks.

5) When he whispers "Ghost", Ghost just may be on the scene, or approaching. Is he "reaching" for Ghost , or speaking to Ghost? It's an open question.

6) We saw Ghost appear to draw strength from Jon's presence and rise to stand when he was wounded by Orell's eagle .. I wouldn't rule out that he could now return the favour to Jon.

7) It's very possible that he never felt the fourth knife because it never struck.

And I suppose I can't see the purpose in removing Jon from the action with so much unresolved. I think his true bonding with Ghost now has to come suddenly. Some needed insights into his nature (not necessarily his parentage) have to come in the form of a sudden epiphany, not a gradual realization. ..and I don't think there's a chance that GRRM would actually kill Jon after devoting so much to the character's development .. or that he would have him fall into Mel's clutches.

[Jennifer of Oldstones]

I was rereading game of thrones and came across this passage from one of Tyrion's chapters. It's after Bran's fall and I immediately thought of Jon:

"If he wakes," Cersei repeated. "Is that likely?" "The gods alone know," Tyrion told her. "The maester only hopes." He chewed some more bread. "I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger."

What do u guys think?

[sj4iy]

I was rereading game of thrones and came across this passage from one of Tyrion's chapters. It's after Bran's fall and I immediately thought of Jon:

"If he wakes," Cersei repeated. "Is that likely?" "The gods alone know," Tyrion told her. "The maester only hopes." He chewed some more bread. "I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger."

What do u guys think?

Very well could end up being a similar situation. Guess we'll just have to wait and see at this point.

[addicted to snow]

GRRM likes cliffhangers... I think that ambiguity in Jon's stabbing scene is engineered to cause a cliffhanger...

I am not as creative as GRRM (surprisingly), but I fail to see how the stabbing event would advance the story if Jon survives the attack.

Jon Snow must die for the character development...

There is a generous amount of foreshadowing that Ghost/Jon & Val will spend much of TWoW together, doing something North of the Wall. I think that Val will guide Ghost/Jon to the Heart of Winter where he will find his Uncle. It would not surprise me at all if Ghost/Jon stumble upon Bran's Cave at some point. The author did have cold-hands mention that the cave has a 'backdoor' that is a sinkhole. The way that GRRM writes, this means that at some point, someone MUST fall down that sinkhole - I think it will be Ghost/Jon.

In the meantime, Mel (who trained in Ashai just like MMD) will use the same magic utilized to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Just as Khal Drogo's body was brought back without his soul, so too will Jon's body be brought back souless. The Wall stops the communications between a Warg & his animal, so Jon may suddenly be back in his 1st life, but unable to reunite with his body. Jon's body will be thrown into the ice cells where it will freeze.

Jon may kill the Three Eyed Crow, he may steal Hodor's Body, he may do any number of things... One thing is certain, his morals will be compromised after his mind mixes with the dire wolf's mind. In the end, Jon will end up being the bad guy... The Night's King... We have got to have a POV character that can lead the Others... Jon is the man for the Job... The ONLY man for the job...

[Green Hereseer]

We have got to have a POV character that can lead the Others... Jon is the man for the Job... The ONLY man for the job...

Ah... THAT is where we disagree. Bran is ABSOLUTELY the man for the job:

--Powerful with the old/cold gods

--Seeking more power from characters of uncertain allegiances

--Has every reason to hate men (violently took his legs, family, friend, and home)

That's exactly what his character is designed for. Frankly, I cannot believe that basically nobody on this forum is feeling this. Even the folks in Heresy dismissed it. Mark my words, y'all.

[addicted to snow]

Ah... THAT is where we disagree. Bran is ABSOLUTELY the man for the job:

--Powerful with the old/cold gods

--Seeking more power from characters of uncertain allegiances

--Has every reason to hate men (violently took his legs, family, friend, and home)

That's exactly what his character is designed for. Frankly, I cannot believe that basically nobody on this forum is feeling this. Even the folks in Heresy dismissed it. Mark my words, y'all.

I don't know... Bran is the winged wolf...

But never fear, you are definitely not the only person that thinks that Bran will be the Bad Guy... I think that it is more popular than the idea that Jon is or will become the bad guy...

[Green Hereseer]

I don't know... Bran is the winged wolf...

But never fear, you are definitely not the only person that thinks that Bran will be the Bad Guy... I think that it is more popular than the idea that Jon is or will become the bad guy...

Well, in my opinion "bad guy" is kind of relative in the WOIAF. GRRM has spent 5 books showing us just how incredibly awful but also how compassionate people can be. My theory is that one of his main goals for the series is to show his audience how it is possible to simultaneously believe that 1) the realms of men MUST BE SAVED, and that 2) the realms of men deserve to be destroyed. If I'm right, then the idea of Bran leading the forces of Cold is not about him being bad per se, but about him sort of working in an avenging Lady Stoneheart kind of direction. Just with a huge army of undead and ice creatures.

But... getting back to Jon: He could turn bad because of the murder-attempt, but I doubt it. I think it's more likely that he will eventually have some kind of spiritual "parlay" with Super-Bran to try to convince him not to destroy the realms of men. And I'm calling it now... Bran will eventually demure and spring will come.

Love me some ASOIAF.

[Boudica]

GRRM likes cliffhangers... I think that ambiguity in Jon's stabbing scene is engineered to cause a cliffhanger...

I am not as creative as GRRM (surprisingly), but I fail to see how the stabbing event would advance the story if Jon survives the attack.

Jon Snow must die for the character development...

There is a generous amount of foreshadowing that Ghost/Jon & Val will spend much of TWoW together, doing something North of the Wall. I think that Val will guide Ghost/Jon to the Heart of Winter where he will find his Uncle. It would not surprise me at all if Ghost/Jon stumble upon Bran's Cave at some point. The author did have cold-hands mention that the cave has a 'backdoor' that is a sinkhole. The way that GRRM writes, this means that at some point, someone MUST fall down that sinkhole - I think it will be Ghost/Jon.

In the meantime, Mel (who trained in Ashai just like MMD) will use the same magic utilized to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Just as Khal Drogo's body was brought back without his soul, so too will Jon's body be brought back souless. The Wall stops the communications between a Warg & his animal, so Jon may suddenly be back in his 1st life, but unable to reunite with his body. Jon's body will be thrown into the ice cells where it will freeze.

Jon may kill the Three Eyed Crow, he may steal Hodor's Body, he may do any number of things... One thing is certain, his morals will be compromised after his mind mixes with the dire wolf's mind. In the end, Jon will end up being the bad guy... The Night's King... We have got to have a POV character that can lead the Others... Jon is the man for the Job... The ONLY man for the job...

I could see Jon going further north to the lands of Always Winter. But he would mostly do it under the guidance of Bran. I do think someone needs to reach the cave where Bran is, and Jon is the obvious choice. Someone needs to help to get Meera home, she cant be stuck in that cave forever, and it is possible that Jon could rescue or retrieve uncle Benjen. Benjen might have more information about the others. It could also be interesting if Jon reached the cave and Bloodraven gives him Dark Sister.

I dont really think Jon will become the great Other, though he might be a bit different after the assassination attempt I dont really see Jon becoming the antagonist. I am not sure that a new Night's King would be required, it is very likely that the original one is still around. And the whole Night's King story happened after the last long night, so it didn't actually play a role in the original long night.

[SevasTra82]

I'm not sure why people automatically assume Jon died. He got stabbed, but it never confirmed he died.

I think this is one of those situations where we already know the answer, so we attempt to find ANOTHER answer because the truth is too obvious to us. (like R+L=J).

Jon got stabbed. He warged into Ghost. His body is in a coma and his spirit is in Ghost. We'll probably get 1, *maybe* 2 chapters of him in Ghost before Melisandre (more than likely as she's the only other POV at the wall) heals Jons body and brings him back.

After that, who knows. Either Jon will fully abandon the NW after he wakes, or the NW will turn loyal to him since he "resurrected".

[addicted to snow]

Things that are seem obvious usually are not the case in GRRM's World...

Martin has said that we will get a POV in the Heart of Winter... I think that has to be Jon...

[Weeping Sore]

OP: you may want to change the title of this thread, as it is a spoiler for those who have not read ADwD. The spoiler-averse should probably avoid this forum altogether, but still.

[sj4iy]

I'm not sure why people automatically assume Jon died. He got stabbed, but it never confirmed he died.

I think this is one of those situations where we already know the answer, so we attempt to find ANOTHER answer because the truth is too obvious to us. (like R+L=J).

Jon got stabbed. He warged into Ghost. His body is in a coma and his spirit is in Ghost. We'll probably get 1, *maybe* 2 chapters of him in Ghost before Melisandre (more than likely as she's the only other POV at the wall) heals Jons body and brings him back.

After that, who knows. Either Jon will fully abandon the NW after he wakes, or the NW will turn loyal to him since he "resurrected".

Another possibility is that Jon's own magic heals him. I think that is more likely than Mel doing it.