Shouldn't others have figured out R+L=J

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Didn't Ned also have the Tower of Joy pulled down? There goes the evidence of where the fighting took place.

I suppose that's part of the problem. How do Ned and Howland tear down a tower by themselves? Others must have been there at least for that.

[Ygrain]

I suppose that's part of the problem. How do Ned and Howland tear down a tower by themselves? Others must have been there at least for that.

If you put a structure to torch, it collapses almost on its own.

[addicted to snow]

If you put a structure to torch, it collapses almost on its own.

I wonder what this tower was made out of in the red mountains of dorn? wood or stone?

[bent branch]

There is at least one person alive who knows about Jon, Wylla. From what Edric said she's still alive. In fact, having recently reread what it is that Ned tells Arya, I am convinced that the elder Daynes (Edric's parents) knew exactly what was going on. It all has to do with Wylla.

Let's assume that what appears to be favorite theory on Wylla in the forums is true. Let's assume that Wylla was loaned to Rhaegar and Lyanna from Starfall. If this is true, the Daynes know perfectly well that she is not Jon's mother with Ned. They know that she spent the war with Lyanna in the ToJ. Therefore, under this scenario the Daynes are knowingly spreading a rumor that is false.

Now let's assume that Wylla didn't come from Starfall. If we assume that Ned just showed up with Wylla and a baby in tow and the Daynes just assumed that Wylla was Jon's mother and Ned Jon's father. Why would they take Wylla in when Ned sent her away? If Wylla came from somewhere else, there would have to have been an agreement between the Daynes and Ned that Wylla could go to them when Ned got Jon another wetnurse. This makes no sense, especially if it was Ned that Ashara was in love with.

So either way, the Daynes must have known about Jon and were willingly covering for Ned.

Given this, they were probably also lying about Ashara. There is no doubt in my mind that Ashara never committed suicide. I think she will turn out to be Lemore, but even if she isn't she will be someone.

Gerold Dayne might be old enough to know this (he would have been about 8). Also, I am sure that Varys knows. He is the best bet for who told Ned where to find Lyanna. There may have been other people who could figure it out if they gave it any real thought, but Ned took Jon north and acknowledged him as his natural son and I don't suppose many people gave it much thought after that.

[MooseHB]

The fact that Ned slew 3 members of the Kingsguard while bringing only his 7 most trusted men should have made Tywin suspicious that they were guarding the rightful heir.

Unless Tywin can read minds, he likely doesn't know this.

[MooseHB]

I think that Ned fell in love with and "dishonored" Ashara Dayne at the Harrenhal tourney leaving her with child. He promises to wed her and speaks to his father who agrees to arrange the marriage (second in line to LoW and the sister of the Lord of Starfall would be a good match). But Rickard and Brandon are both killed and the war gets in the way. Ashara retires from court to serve out her pregnancy at Starfall and gives birth to a stillborn girl. Ned marries Cat (honoring duty to family over duty to his heart and the true love of his life). Lyanna gives birth to Jon but is too ill to nurse him so Wylla comes from Starfall to be nurse maid. Rhaegar is recalled and killed at the Trident. Lyanna becomes very ill and Arthur Dayne directs Wylla to return to Starfall with the boy to keep him safe. Ned arrives at the ToJ. The three Kingsguard allow him to speak with his sister (no reason for them not to). She tells Ned of Jon and makes him promise to raise him as his own son and keep his true lineage secret (she probably gives him Jon's true birth name as well) for fear that otherwise he would be killed. Ned and company leave to retrieve Jon but the KG refuse to allow him to pass as Jon may now be rightful heir and Rhaegar had them swear oaths to protect his son and not surrender him to anyone on the rebel side. Big fight that goes bad for Ned and company. Howland Reed is somehow able to reach Arthur (likely with some sort of Cranog paralytic) and explain the facts - Ned alone can keep Jon safe as the victorious Barratheon's will surely kill him as they did Rhaegars other children. Arthur allows himself to be slain or takes his own life as that is the only way for him to honor his contradictory oaths to Rhaegar by both letter and intent. Ned goes to Starfall. Ashara has adopted Jon who has the Stark look as a way of coping with the death of her stillborn daughter. Ned brings word that Arthur is dead and that he must have the child to be taken back to Winterfell to be raised by his new Tully wife and she would afterward never see either of them again. A despondent Ashara throws herself from the tower. This is the high price Ned paid for all his promises.

This story is known by some. Meera and Jojen know some. Edric Dayne seems to know it all but stops talking when Arya becomes upset expressing surprise that her father never told the tale with Edric having learned it from his aunt. He figures it isn't his place to speak if Ned chose to keep it a secret. And, again, Arya doesn't want to hear that her father ever loved any woman other than her mother.

Others may suspect but the only ones with true knowledge would never divulge it. The smart ones (Tywin, LF, et al) would never want to antagonize one of the most powerful houses in Westeros to chase down gossip that at best would reveal that there was yet another Targaryen bastard in the world. Not to mention that Robert would likely take the head of anyone who would even suggest a slander against the memory of Lyanna. So they simply choose not to pull on a thread that can yield no conceivable benefit for taking such an extraordinary risk. So suspicions but little else.

Excellent posit, Minuteman.

Mine would be quite similar, but without Ashara and Ned bumping at Harrenhal. I think they fell in love, but wanted to marry honorably. Tough to hold back the hormones, but possible, with a sense of honor as big as Ned's. If he chains himself to it, he's rooted to the spot. The stillborn was Wylla's (as a wet nurse, she'd have a young child, but she doesn't), and Ashara autodefenestrated because her true love killed her brother, and married another out of duty (if she jumped at all).

[Balerion's Whiskers]

How did Ned and Co. know where to find the TOJ? It isn't like Lyanna picked up her iPhone and sent him the GPS co-ordinates.

How did they even know that she was in Dorne?

"Someone told...someone always tells..."

[Lord_Tyrell]

Unless Tywin can read minds, he likely doesn't know this.

Why is that? It's known that Ned slew Arthur Dayne, and that the only lord to return with Ned was Howland Reed. Don't think it's open knowledge that Ned left Lord Dustin there dead and took his horse? Think the Glovers were cool with their son not coming home? No way this can't go unreported with the high profile body count.

[A_Prince_of_Dorne]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but Ned Stark was known to be an honorable person. True, not the kind of guy who would father a bastard child but also not the kind of guy who would lie about fathering a bastard. Let's also remember that Jon is the child that looks most like Ned. In real life, people don't dispute the parentage of a kid that looks exactly like his"father." So, it makes perfect sense that no one in the series has figured out R+L=J.

[Buried Treasure]

People in Westeros seem distracted by the dramatic events with Ashara, it's a nice scandalous story in itself.

If Ashara had not existed, and Ned had just alluded to a serving woman possibly named Walla then people would have thought there was more to the story and maybe got to R+L. As it was people saw through Ned's retinance to the juicy gossip surrounding Ashara's death.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

. Lyanna becomes very ill and Arthur Dayne directs Wylla to return to Starfall with the boy to keep him safe. Ned arrives at the ToJ. The three Kingsguard allow him to speak with his sister (no reason for them not to). She tells Ned of Jon and makes him promise to raise him as his own son and keep his true lineage secret (she probably gives him Jon's true birth name as well) for fear that otherwise he would be killed. Ned and company leave to retrieve Jon but the KG refuse to allow him to pass as Jon may now be rightful heir and Rhaegar had them swear oaths to protect his son and not surrender him to anyone on the rebel side.

But why would the 3 KG be at the ToJ of Jon wasn't there anymore? Under any circumstances, at least one, if not two or all three, would go with Jon to Starfall. I guess if they had decided to hide him, they may agree not to follow because it would be a giveaway - but that seems so unlikely; Arthur Dayne, at least, had a legitimate for being at Starfall, as it was his home.

Also, if the 3 KG had decided that hiding Jon was preferable to guarding him physically, then why stay at the ToJ and not cross the Narrow Sea to Braavos? If Jon is in hiding, then the KG should be protecting Viserys and Dany, before Lyanna; and that would also be the best way to deflect attention from the hidden Jon, because the KG would seem to be declaring to the world that Viserys is the king (in the KG's minds).

Finally, if they are guarding Lyanna too, they wouldn't let Ned near her. You say there's no reason not to let them talk - but what else were they going to talk about than Jon?

[Minuteman]

I don't think the KG were there to keep Jon's existence a secret. That would not have been Rhaegar's order as the war was far from lost when he left for the Trident. Rhaegar would have commanded them simply to protect both Lyanna and Jon with their lives. The ToJ was indefensible but Starfall has a strong defense. Evacuating Jon to Starfall would be sensible after the Targaryan dynasty collapsed but Lyanna was far too ill to move. So they remained until she either died or was recovered sufficient to travel. There would have been no need to keep Ned from speaking to Lyanna as he would certainly have no intent to bring her harm but rather comfort in her final moments. So Lyanna dies and Ned makes a promise to keep Jon safe in Winterfell and his identity secret thus avoiding a vengeful Robert killing him. But the remaining KG would take a dim view of permitting Ned to go to Starfall and abduct Jon back. So the self contradictory order that Arthur Dayne faces is that the best way to protect Jon's life would be to give him to Ned but that would violate the oath to Rhaegar to guard him unto death. This is what I think Howland Reed helped get across to Arthur.

[Minuteman]

One other minor point in support of the idea that Arthur Dayne allowed himself to be killed or killed himself directly to honor his oath to Rhaegar in both word and intent. Jaime's seemingly prophetic dream has Brienne say "I swore an oath. A holy oath." to which Arthur responds "We all swore oaths" before rushing Jaime. Jaime broke his oath be killing Aerys. With good reason but still an oathbreaker. Once the pyromancer Hand was killed there was no reason for him to have killed Aerys himself. Lannisters were breaking into the throne room when he did this. The honorable route would have been token defense allowing himself to be killed (or suicide) as the men broke in. This still results in Aerys' death without tarnishing Jaime's honor. But he was a "false brother" who chose life and infamy over his honor. The true KG "never run" so chose death at the ToJ.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

That still doesn't really address why the last 3 loyal KG would let their infant king be carried away somewhere, while all 3 of them guarded his mother. The idea of the defenceless king being moved during war without the KG is hard to reconcile with what we know, especially of those 3 particular KG.

As for letting Ned speak to Lyanna: again, why let him comfort her, if you know (and they must have known) that she will tell him about Jon. She's dying, he's her brother. And if she believed the KG plan to hide Jon at Starfall would work, why tell Ned? It just doesn't stack up that the KG would let Ned see Lyanna, because that was certain to result in him finding out about Jon. And once Lyanna dies, was Ned ever likely to just leave Jon at Starfall?

Finally, there's no necessary conflict in any oath given by Arthur in the circumstances you describe, if he came to believe that Jon would be safest hidden with Ned. Protecting Jon was his number 1 priority, after all.

From what we know from Ned's fever dream in Game, the 3 KG stopped him from going into the ToJ. The dream is likely a stylised version of what happened (given how formulaic and poetic their conversations are in the dream), but the core structure is likely true. Ned arrives, the KG are making their last stand, protecting their king - after all, they see Ned and his men, seemingly sent there by Robert, who had just had Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia murdered. The most likely explanation was that the KG didn't trust Ned, wouldn't let him through, Lyanna intervened too late (if at all, given she was sick/dying) to stop the fight, and everyone except Ned and Howland died. Ned then finds Lyanna.

It's likely that she only just had Jon - as Ned thinks of her "bed of blood", which suggests dying in childbirth, rather than later from a fever or something.

[Minuteman]

Jon wasn't king, Viserys was. Jon is likely a bastard. It's slow riding for children and, as mentioned, Jon would be well protected at Starfall whereas Lyanna was not at the ToJ. So they all plan to remain there until she dies and then ride for Starfall. Perhaps one or two accompanied Jon and return to the ToJ once he was safe at Starfall. The ToJ is alot closer to Starfall than it is to KL so the timeline isn't particularly troubling. Point is that there would have been no reason to keep a KG guard on Jon at Starfall and dilute their force at the unprotected ToJ.

If Rhaegar gave the order to protect Jon with their lives it does set up the problem that the best way to protect him would be to let Ned take him and disguise him as his bastard. This doesn't well work if the remaining KG are in tow. Of course, as Ned's fever dream mentioned, he was surprised that they would be at the ToJ instead of at Dragonstone with the King Viserys. To which Arthur replied that KG don't run. Run from what? Their oaths to Rhaegar seem natural as they do in fact hold fealty to the new king. Until Viserys tells them otherwise though they remain obedient to Rhaegars final command. So the best way to fulfill their oath was, in fact, with their lives. You don't have to believe it but to me it makes sense.

Also, Ned's fever dream stops at the beginning of the fight. We know that the KG killed all of Ned's men except for Howland Reed who stopped Arthur from killing him.

We also have to explain why Ned made a rushed trip to Starfall to return Dawn. Dawn is just a sword and it cannot be wielded by anyone who doesn't prove themselves as the Sword of the Morning. As there have been no Swords of the Morning since Arthur died there isn't any reason to rush its' return to Starfall. If Ned found Jon at the ToJ then what? He left Jon and rushed to Starfall, picked up Wylla, and rushed back just to return a sword? Or, more likely imho, it was a pretext because Jon was at Starfall with Wylla as wet nurse. He would probably have liked to see Ashara one final time as well. We know from Edric that Wylla was milk mother to both Jon and Edric so somehow the Dayne's wet nurse becomes involved.

[RickonKITN]

I am sure that Varys knows. He is the best bet for who told Ned where to find Lyanna. edged him as his natural son and I don't suppose many

Ned and Varys' relationship - more specifically Neds opinion of Varys - surely rules this out

[bent branch]

Ned and Varys' relationship - more specifically Neds opinion of Varys - surely rules this out

Not if Varys had the information given to Ned anonymously. Notice how Varys sent the message to Kevan to go to Pycelle's. He could have had a child deliver a message to Ned and then just run away.

[Fireandblood94]

There's no proof against Ned's word that's why. Even if Tywin suspected something he can't do anything.

[Connartist92]

There is at least one person alive who knows about Jon, Wylla. From what Edric said she's still alive. In fact, having recently reread what it is that Ned tells Arya, I am convinced that the elder Daynes (Edric's parents) knew exactly what was going on. It all has to do with Wylla.

Let's assume that what appears to be favorite theory on Wylla in the forums is true. Let's assume that Wylla was loaned to Rhaegar and Lyanna from Starfall. If this is true, the Daynes know perfectly well that she is not Jon's mother with Ned. They know that she spent the war with Lyanna in the ToJ. Therefore, under this scenario the Daynes are knowingly spreading a rumor that is false.

Now let's assume that Wylla didn't come from Starfall. If we assume that Ned just showed up with Wylla and a baby in tow and the Daynes just assumed that Wylla was Jon's mother and Ned Jon's father. Why would they take Wylla in when Ned sent her away? If Wylla came from somewhere else, there would have to have been an agreement between the Daynes and Ned that Wylla could go to them when Ned got Jon another wetnurse. This makes no sense, especially if it was Ned that Ashara was in love with.

So either way, the Daynes must have known about Jon and were willingly covering for Ned.

Given this, they were probably also lying about Ashara. There is no doubt in my mind that Ashara never committed suicide. I think she will turn out to be Lemore, but even if she isn't she will be someone.

Gerold Dayne might be old enough to know this (he would have been about 8). Also, I am sure that Varys knows. He is the best bet for who told Ned where to find Lyanna. There may have been other people who could figure it out if they gave it any real thought, but Ned took Jon north and acknowledged him as his natural son and I don't suppose many people gave it much thought after that.

This might sound crazy, but what if Jon and fAegon are twins? (Probably not, I know, but bear with me for a moment.) One went north with Ned, the other across the Narrow Sea with Jon Connington and Ashara Dayne ("Septa Lemore"). fAegon would still be Rhaegar's son, just not the son we thought he was. Twins were fairly common for Targaryens, so keeping them apart would keep them safer? Maybe?

[Arbor Golden]

its about ned's personality. He is a trustworthy square. He made one humanizing mistake which he owned up to. Ned is not a liar. This is peoples perception. Of course nobody discovered r+l=j because not even ned's enemies think he has the capacity to deceive.