AFFC Reread Project - Samwell (+Prologue)

[rpthomps]

I think it may be the AA legend. In Davos's first chapter in ACOK Mel says "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after the long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world...." (ACOK US ed. pg. 111)

Is there something significant to the fact that there are nearly 1000 lord commanders? Seems like a superstitious number.

Also, what is this quote at the bottom? How did you collect this information?

[Reposado]

Is there something significant to the fact that there are nearly 1000 lord commanders? Seems like a superstitious number.

ive thought that too. if anything it indicates that jon might not be lord commander when the final battle comes. which i'm kinda dissapointed by.

[Elgernon]

p80 AFFC "we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders"

so at best not quite 1000 . . . still being that close does seem to be a bad omen of sorts, but then again its Jon and we all know that GRRM really wants to mess with our heads

This really is a great chapter (even though since Jon is probably my favorite character my impression might be a bit colored by his only appearance). We get a lot of context and build up as well as a bit of recap and conclusion from prior events. On the reread Gilly's sacrifice is incredibly obvious, as is the new distinction between Jon and Lord Snow. Although in both characterizations of Jon we see all the qualities that will/do make him a great leader, the forceful presence and the gentle, caring side, and we know from this that he really is doing what he thinks is best for everyone.

I did love this quote from the great sage and emminent scholar Dolorous Edd on p73 "I never wanted to see half the things I've seen, and I've never seen half the things I wanted to. I don't think wanting comes into it." So true that it almost scary.

Although I HATE all the speculation that someone else might get a dragon I did find one interesting bit of wording from Jon. p79 "King's blood, to wake a dragon. That makes me think that perhaps Melisandre has merely misinterpreted (so shocking) the idea that that spilling king's blood will cause a dragon egg to quicken and instead it will merely raise the ire (ala poor dead Viserys and his threats to Dany) of the dragons (Dany and maybe Jon).

Edited to clear up some wording

[rpthomps]

Although I HATE all the speculation that someone else might get a dragon I did find one interesting bit of wording from Jon. p79 "King's blood, to wake a dragon. That makes me think that perhaps Melisandre has merely misinterpreted (so shocking) the idea that that spilling king's blood will cause a dragon egg to quicken and instead it will merely raise the ire (ala poor dead Viserys and his threats to Dany) of the dragons (Dany and maybe Jon).

Edited to clear up some wording

An interesting idea. "King's blood, to wake a dragon" could be less a formula for hatching a dragon but could be more a prophesy. Tommen's death? is needed in order for the realm to be ruled by the Dragon's again.

[Reposado]

that would be an interesting twist, but hasn't the kingis blood to wake a dragon prophecy already been fulfilled? and as far as we know, melisandre doesn't have any eggs. that's what i've always thought has been slightly humorous about her situation.

[Ashara Stark]

We should push all the events at the Wall back! There's another reason for that: at the last Sam chapter in Feast, it is said something to the extent that there has been only two month turns after the beginning of the Century. (Someone should check the quote, since I don't have the books right now ).

The quote from the last Samwell chapter in Feast is on page 679, UK hardcover edition

"Is he the Seneschal?" said Sam, confused,. "Maester Aemon said his name was Norre"

"Not for the past two turns. There is a new one every year. (...) This year the black stone was drwan by Archmaester Walgrave, but Walgrave's wits are prone to wander, so Theobald stepped up and said he'd serve his term"

I think it means that Sam reaches Oldtown at the end of February or the beginning of March of year 301, not 300, and hence the reference to the new year.

This will mean that AFfC covers a long period of time, close to a year.

[cteresa]

The legends say the Night´s King was the 13th lord commander and his name struck from records and lists - which would make Jon actually the 999th Lord Commander if one counts the Night´s King. And yes, I think it is significative, though nothin seems to hint. But is the wall coming down before it was 1000 lord commanders?

I thought this was a great chapter to reread - I did not caught the baby switch though in retrospect, oh it is fabulously hinted. Gilly was afraid of Ghost when she first saw him and Jon, but it was not Ghost she should have been afraid of. Oh Jon. And fabulous last line

And we find out more about Randyl Tarly "if it chains you want, come with me".

I do wish we will get this chapter from Jon´s PoV!

[Elgernon]

An interesting idea. "King's blood, to wake a dragon" could be less a formula for hatching a dragon but could be more a prophesy. Tommen's death? is needed in order for the realm to be ruled by the Dragon's again.

I was referring more to Visery's endlessly threatingin Dany with "waking" the dragon if she wasn't good. But this theory is good too.

[Poor Fellow]

So we find out in this chapter that (presumably, although he is not named) Arnolf Karstark, castellan of Karhold, has thrown in his lot with Stannis. What are the implications of that? The Karstark host is wandering around south of the Neck somewhere, right? They can't have passed Moat Cailin and it seems doubtful they would have found sea passage. So where they hell are they, what are they doing, and what good are they to Stannis? Plus the Karstark heir is captive (whose?) at Maidenpool. Is this a play by some collateral line (not Rickard's) to seize power, hoping that the hostage will be put to death when news reaches the KL cabal?

This will be worth revisiting when we come to the cryptic tidings from White Harbor in later KL chapters. Strange things are afoot in the North.

A Poor Fellow

[Lupigis]

Plus the Karstark heir is captive (whose?) at Maidenpool. Is this a play by some collateral line (not Rickard's) to seize power, hoping that the hostage will be put to death when news reaches the KL cabal?

I believe that others have speculated along these lines in the main AFFC forum.

Catching up on the re read I noticed one thing that hasn't been mentioned here. When Sam goes to see Jon he is carrying a number of books, but we are only told the titles of two. One is the Jade Compendium, that Aemon asks Jon to read a passage in. The other is Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons by Maester Thomax. This title shows us that at least one maester actively studied the death of dragons. Considering what Marwyn tells Sam in the last chaper (and even though I don't trust Marwyn very much), this could be a hint that Marwyn's telling the truth.

[Kingslayer]

The Karstark host is wandering around south of the Neck somewhere, right? They can't have passed Moat Cailin and it seems doubtful they would have found sea passage. So where they hell are they, what are they doing, and what good are they to Stannis? Plus the Karstark heir is captive (whose?) at Maidenpool.

An unknown number of Karstarks are with Roose Bolton, and the rest are scattered across the riverlands in small bands. Presumably, they're now outlaws.

Lord Harrion will cast his lot with Bolton and the Lannisters when he learns of Arnolf's scheming, IMO.

[wfzimmerman]

Is there something significant to the fact that there are nearly 1000 lord commanders? Seems like a superstitious number.

Personally, I think GRRM has introduced enough fuzziness that it's clear that 1000 is not a special number in the plot. We have seen no "numerology" magic anywhere in the series, have we?

[wfzimmerman]

Catching up on the re read I noticed one thing that hasn't been mentioned here. When Sam goes to see Jon he is carrying a number of books, but we are only told the titles of two. One is the Jade Compendium, that Aemon asks Jon to read a passage in. The other is Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons by Maester Thomax. This title shows us that at least one maester actively studied the death of dragons. Considering what Marwyn tells Sam in the last chaper (and even though I don't trust Marwyn very much), this could be a hint that Marwyn's telling the truth.

My view is that the Jade Compendium is probably the important one because it may allow GRRM to introduce important plot information at a timely moment. The book about Dragonkin seems less relevant because by necessity Daenerys is wind up to be the world's leading expert on dragons and Targaryens. That's certainly arguable, I could be wrong, but my money is on Colloquo Votar.

[Jon Targaryen]

My view is that the Jade Compendium is probably the important one because it may allow GRRM to introduce important plot information at a timely moment. The book about Dragonkin seems less relevant because by necessity Daenerys is wind up to be the world's leading expert on dragons and Targaryens. That's certainly arguable, I could be wrong, but my money is on Colloquo Votar.

I eagerly look forward to Jon reading that book in ADWD.

[LadySoftheart]

Having been sidetracked by the holiday festivities (although I introduced a note of Martin by giving the books both to my father and to a very good friend of mine with instructions to report back when read), I am now shockingly, shockingly late in my observations here. But at any rate, and for what it's worth, here they are ...

As HappyEnt said above, making Sam such an avid reader is sure to appeal to Martin's audience (no doubt all avid readers!) - I also empathize with him for being allergic to the dust as I once had a very disastrous encounter with some old newsprint in a hushed archive (followed by lots of sneezing and even more dirty looks!) Also "one more book ... one more page ..." - how many of us have not felt the same.

Another mention of Queen Alysanne and Jaehaerys (this is Egg's grandfather, right? Or even older? I'm getting a wee bit confused by the timelines!) but clearly Alysanne is someone important in her own right a bit, what with the flying around on dragons by herself. I'd like to know more.

Jon's apparently instituted a daily archery drill, though he himself is training with his Valyrian steel sword (like Brienne, he apparently feels the need to make himself worthy of the sword he bears!) Later on in the chapter, there's the possibility that "dragonsteel=Valyrian Steel" - we haven't seen anyone meet the Others with a Valyrian steel sword yet, right?

Poor Sam remembers his oath to Coldhands not to say where Bran went; I still think it was a little bit low of CH not to let him tell JON. It's not like Jon would've broadcast the news to all and sundry.

It seems the Northmen are not flocking to Stannis Baratheon - he's got some Karstarks in his following and that seems about it. I wonder if Asha Greyjoy will end up with Stannis herself? That'd be an interesting possibility, wouldn't it?

They haven't had news of Tywin's death yet.

Jon orders Sam to hide his fears; by feigning courage, he may yet have it. Poor Gilly is rightfully upset with Jon - I hope he reveals the deception before Melisandre decides to burn Gilly's kid! It's kind of touching that Aemon drank at the same tavern we saw in the prologue.

I'm deeply curious to know what's in the Jade Compendium - I have the oddest feeling it might be something about dragons in Asshai! Even though Aemon doesn't know about Dany yet, still ...

And lastly, poor Jon's lost his only true friend - the others like him (though perhaps they resent his meteoric rise to power) but Sam was truly his friend and now he's had to send him away.

[Jaehaerys]

Lady Softheart,

Another mention of Queen Alysanne and Jaehaerys (this is Egg's grandfather, right? Or even older? I'm getting a wee bit confused by the timelines!) but clearly Alysanne is someone important in her own right a bit, what with the flying around on dragons by herself. I'd like to know more.

This refers to Jaehaerys I (aka the Old King, the Concilitor) who ruled more than 200 years ago. Him and his wife (Good Queen Alysanne)'s story is told by Jon and Bran when they describe the history of Queenscrown in ASOS.

Jaehaerys II was the 2nd son of Egg (aka Aegon the Unlikely) and father of Aerys the Mad King.

Hope that helps.

[Geoff]

Poor Sam remembers his oath to Coldhands not to say where Bran went; I still think it was a little bit low of CH not to let him tell JON. It's not like Jon would've broadcast the news to all and sundry.

I don't think that, in Jon's case, the problem is broadcasting the news, but rather that he may be tempted to go after Bran, thinking him to be the only surviving Stark.

It seems the Northmen are not flocking to Stannis Baratheon - he's got some Karstarks in his following and that seems about it. I wonder if Asha Greyjoy will end up with Stannis herself? That'd be an interesting possibility, wouldn't it?

I really like Asha, and hope (and expect) she will play a large part in books to come.

Geoff

[LadySoftheart]

I don't think that, in Jon's case, the problem is broadcasting the news, but rather that he may be tempted to go after Bran, thinking him to be the only surviving Stark.

True; I think that is likely the reason why Sam can't tell him. I just wish he knew that Bran wasn't really dead - it might ease his heart a little bit knowing that (although of course his rejection of Stannis's offer of Winterfell would have been easier if he'd known Bran was alive...) It just ... well, a little bit it smacks of the kind of plot device that Martin rarely uses - the one I have dubbed "if only these people would just talk to each other." But there are good reasons, as you say, for Sam's saying nothing.

I like Asha too; I feel like all the speculation has been about her joining Dany, but what if she goes instead to the Northmen? (She seemed to have an understanding, at any rate, with the Glovers and a desire to make peace not shared by the other Iron Islanders!)

[Geoff]

I like Asha too; I feel like all the speculation has been about her joining Dany, but what if she goes instead to the Northmen? (She seemed to have an understanding, at any rate, with the Glovers and a desire to make peace not shared by the other Iron Islanders!)

Well, if she gets together with Stannis, she better be prepared to be a pariah among her own people, unless she has a very good reason--like information about the Others and what needs to be done to combat them. I expect that a war with the Others may require all the peoples of Westeros to come together and set aside local quabbles for the sake of survival.

[LadySoftheart]

Well, if she gets together with Stannis, she better be prepared to be a pariah among her own people, unless she has a very good reason--like information about the Others and what needs to be done to combat them.

Oh, I didn't mean she would join forces with Stannis necessarily - it sounds as if most of the Northmen haven't done that either. Just that she might provide some counterweight to him or something.

I expect that a war with the Others may require all the peoples of Westeros to come together and set aside local quabbles for the sake of survival.

I could not agree more; I think this is the one area in which Stannis has shown himself worthy to be king of Westeros because he was the only one who actually thought to act for the realm when the Night's Watch called for help. Of course, he was also the only one who didn't have much to lose by heading north anyway. But yes, I think in the end, it will come down to "Humans vs. Others" and whether they are Starks, Lannisters, Greyjoys, Tullys, Tyrells or whathaveyou, they will need to put aside all their difference and fight for everyone's lives.