Ashara Stark Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Later on in the chapter, there's the possibility that "dragonsteel=Valyrian Steel" That's what Jon and Sam think, but if I remember correctly the Last Hero lived long before the Valyrian empire was founded, and long before the first Valyrian steel was produced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Sam II I noted in this chapter that Sam has many connections in the Reach. He even knows Ser Hyle for example. Of course, few of these connections are likely to have a very high opinion of him. Maester Aemon is nearing his end. The reminiscencing on his youth is a sign, and his confusion on waking up ("Egg, I dreamed that I was old") is telling, and moving as well. The wreck they see off the coast of Skagos will come into ADwD. Nothing else to say I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Timeline There are 20 days accounted for in this chapter, "then came more storms, worse than before". Three or one, depending on how you count. Let's say another three days at least. And a few days (?) of travel from Castle Black to Eastwatch. In total, the voyage to Bravos takes 30 days, if not more. Next time we will be able to synchronise with anything is when Cat of the Canals Arya Stark of Winterfell kills the singer. This chapter has one of the great lines, programmatic for the entire series: "Sometimes there are no happy choices, only some less grievous than the others." (Quoted from memory.) No trees. But looking at the oars gives Sam solace and makes him feel less greensick. Probably because they are made of wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 We already discussed the baby switch with the first Samwell chapter. Poor Gilly. She starts crying when Daeron sings her a lullaby, the first stanza probably includes some otherwise harmless line about a mother's love for her child. Maybe the lullaby text is hidden in some other chapter? From Sansa's singer we get the text of another song, a mother's lament over her fallen son, but I don't think that is Daeron's lullaby. Lots of other songs are mentioned in this chapter. The Bear and the Maiden Fair makes a welcome return, beloved by the oarsmen. Hairy Bear must have felt right at home. And A Thousand Eyes and One, which brings us to the juiciest morsel of background information in this chapter: Bloodraven was at the Wall, a Lord Commander. Measter Aemon went to the Wall when he was 35 (Maester of the chain when he was 19), which would be around 233 AL. How old is Bloodraven at that time? Hard to say; maybe in his 50s. Could he have been Lord Commander between 235 and 250, just to toss out some numbers? When did Lord Mormont start his term? Before Robert's rebellion? I think we learned the name of his predecessor somewhere, but maybe I'm imagining things... Of course, this has given raise to the wonderful Lord Bloodraven is Coldhands crackpot theory, which I much prefer to Benjen. Jon made a mistake in sending Daeron south as a new recruiter, but we do not know that yet. The only instance I can think of where Jon makes a wrong leadership decision. Still, I feel for the poor man. Being a father of three, I can imagine the constant stink of shit in the cabin. I have been blessed with pretty quiet children, but even they have given me a night or two of constant crying. Enough to drive me half crazy. To imagine being trapped on a rocking boat, in a storm, with a crying baby... terrible. Gilly, of course, endures it all and her grief, and so does Sam. But Daeron is made of weaker stuff. He is somebody who just leaves. The fate of the people of Skane is of course terrible for somebody who (like me) lives in Skåne. I wonder if Ran (who lives a bit North of Skåne and is filled with the same envy as everybody else in Sweden) made GRRM write that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Isn't Skane the bit of Sweden that really ought to be in Denmark instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Alaric Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Jon made a mistake in sending Daeron south as a new recruiter, but we do not know that yet. The only instance I can think of where Jon makes a wrong leadership decision. I don't think it's a bad leadership decision. Most of the Night's Watch are (or started out as) pieces of ****, so it's not like Jon has a lot of options. Yoren was good at emptying prisons, but if ther NW is going to improve, it needs more "real" people, people who choose for reasons other than "or die". Thus, Jon's decision is reasonable. Furthermore, Jon has to let his people do their jobs without micromanagement (or everyone would hate him). After all, what is the purpose of administering an oath if you don't let the person [try to] fulfilll it. So Daeron deserts and lets Jon and the NW down -- it was a reasonable risk for Jon and no real loss to the watch (a 10 year old girl slits his throat), so basically Jon wins because he one less useless mouth to feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashara Stark Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Measter Aemon went to the Wall when he was 35 (Maester of the chain when he was 19), which would be around 233 AL. How old is Bloodraven at that time? Hard to say; maybe in his 50s. Could he have been Lord Commander between 235 and 250, just to toss out some numbers? When did Lord Mormont start his term? Before Robert's rebellion? I think we learned the name of his predecessor somewhere, but maybe I'm imagining things... Randon221B wrote on this board some time ago that GRRM told him that Martin has said that at the time of Redgrass field, Daemon was 26, Bittersteel was 24, and Bloodraven was 21. That means they were born in 170, 172, and 175 respectively. So, Bloodraven was 58 in 233 when sent to the Wall. In one of the books (I think it is in ASoS) Mance mentions Lord Commander Qorgyle as Mormont predecessor. Mance says he went to Winterfell with Qorgyle and then he saw Jon for the first time. Sam says that in Braavos "mummers play written stories" as opossed to what they do in Westeros. That reinforces the image of Braavos as a kind of greek polis. From previous books it seemed that Aemon went to the Wall because he didn't want to put Egg in trouble but that Egg did nothing to keep him by his side. But now he confirms that Egg wanted Aemon to be part of his small council, which, at least for me, are really good news. I look forward to reading about Aemon's going to the Wall with Dunk and Bloodraven in one of the future Dunk&Egg stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpthomps Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 From previous books it seemed that Aemon went to the Wall because he didn't want to put Egg in trouble but that Egg did nothing to keep him by his side. But now he confirms that Egg wanted Aemon to be part of his small council, which, at least for me, are really good news. I look forward to reading about Aemon's going to the Wall with Dunk and Bloodraven in one of the future Dunk&Egg stories. Where can you read about Dunk and Egg? One of the things that I was researching during the last Arya chapter was the height of the titan. I was trying to gauge it using the height of the statue of Baelor the Blessed in King's Landing but Samwell says it is hundreds of feet high here. (pg 217) Also, Aemon's "gaze" seems pulled to the East. Can he sense Dany's dragons? and if so, why hasn't he sensed them before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Where can you read about Dunk and Egg? In the Legends anthologies edited by Robert Silverberg. Here's a link to the first one in hardcover: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312867875/ It contains the short story The Hedge Knight, as well as other short stories by other authors. There is also a Legends II, containing The Sworn Sword. The books were split into 2-3 parts when released as paperback, so make sure you get the right part if you decide to buy paperback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Godsgrace Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Not much happens in this chapter. Maester Aemon gets sick. We hear that Gilly has Mance's child, but some people on this board guessed it after first sam chapter was read at the convention. I agree that dareon was poor choice, but NW doesn't have all that much trustworthy people these days and Jon must make do with what he has. One nitpicking point: we hear that mummers in Westeros know only improvised farces, not written dramas. This certainly is too primitive? Drama is a cultural development known in many pre-medieval societies, not only by Greeks and Romans, but also in India and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I'm late to this chapter. I liked it a lot, but much of my liking stems from the fact that I have read and liked the Dunk and Egg stories. The line "Egg, I dreamed that I was old" made my hair stand out! Apart from that, not much happens, except that we begin to see some of Daerons unsympathetic traits (and of course the baby switch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but something struck me as strange in the prologue when Mollander makes his toast to Daenerys. Armen replies to him that, "The Spider has ears everywhere." Now from this statement we can surmise that Tywin is indeed still alive (which just adds to the evidence when the idea of Stannis' head being on a stake is mentioned), but it also points to either how wide of a net Varys has and also that Armen is probably from the King's Landing area (or that Varys guise as the Spider is well enough known to keep everyone quiet). Again, sorry for the late addition to discussion and feel free to move it earlier into the thread to keep a nice flow to the thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpthomps Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but something struck me as strange in the prologue when Mollander makes his toast to Daenerys. Armen replies to him that, "The Spider has ears everywhere." Now from this statement we can surmise that Tywin is indeed still alive (which just adds to the evidence when the idea of Stannis' head being on a stake is mentioned), but it also points to either how wide of a net Varys has and also that Armen is probably from the King's Landing area (or that Varys guise as the Spider is well enough known to keep everyone quiet). Again, sorry for the late addition to discussion and feel free to move it earlier into the thread to keep a nice flow to the thread). How can we surmise Tywin is alive from this statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 How can we surmise Tywin is alive from this statement? The spider = Varys, who dissapeard without a trace the night Tywin was killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpthomps Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 The spider = Varys, who dissapeard without a trace the night Tywin was killed. I agree that the Spider is Varys but I still don't see the connection between Tywin being alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sweetling Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I agree that the Spider is Varys but I still don't see the connection between Tywin being alive. Because most likely the news that Varys (one of the most famous political figures of the seven Kingdoms) disappeared on the night of Tywin's death should travel as fast as the news of Tywin's death itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Zog Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Because most likely the news that Varys disappeared [...] should travel as fast as the news of Tywin's death itself. I disagree. Tywin's death is a major political event, and will be on the lips of every sailor that passes through King's Landing. Varys's disappearance is only significant insofar as it implicates Varys in Tywin's death. Most common folk won't make this connection unless Cersei makes it for them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 It seems ominous that Aemon and Daeron didn’t get the happy ending that Sam thought they would get. Gilly is the other one he thinks of. What ending will she get? Aemon was 35 when he took the black. So it seems definite that the middle temptation was the one to become king. There must have been six kings in Dorne before Nymeria, maybe seven if you count Martell. Horas and Hobber sound like jerks. Now I don’t feel so bad for them being hostages. Sam looks forward to seeing Dickon too. It sounds like Dickon is a good kid. Overall, a very sad chapter. There are no happy endings. Very Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Samwell II AFFC has disturbing parts and elegaic, bittersweet parts (it's a whole emotional rainbow, see), and I find the latter much more affecting. This chapter in particular is one of my favorites, in the book and possibly the series. Not much happens, arguably, but it says so much about the series. More specfically: - I agree that the Redwynes sound like pricks; although given Westerosi culture, I don't know that they are _particularly_ bad people. Even Jon is a little condescending to Sam, although he's smart enough to realize his worth also. - Another person who doesn't show herself well is Lady Tarly. Is there any particular reason why, after your son has been humiliated repeatedly by all and sundry at the Redwyne court, you would emphasize that he scared off the possibility of a marriage to boot? I suspect that Sam's mother was frequently (if indirectly) emphasizing his failures just so that she could comfort him. Sam always thinks back fondly to his mother and sisters, but this is the sort of thing that he wouldn't necessarily recognize. - And how about that Randyll, while we're in the business of criticizing Tarlys? Wants to teach his son how to swim, so he throws him into a lake. Bully for you, my lord. - There's something a little odd about Sam's assumption that Jon would let Gilly's son die at Stannis' hands. Presumably, the reason he would send Dalla's son off is to save _both_ their lives: that is, not because he's worried about dragons waking from the fire but because he's worried about the murder of children. - Also, as a final note, I'm pretty sure that GRRM has done the "as rain streamed down his cheeks" trick more than once, in this case when Aemon says, "Egg, I dreamed I was old." Not that I'm complaining, since it works, it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 I'm kinda late on this all re-read project, so there is little to add to this chapter. But I did noticed by the end of the chapter: “Slayer.†Dareon appeared beside him, oblivious to Sam’s pain. “A sweet night, for once. Look, the stars are coming out. We might even get a bit of moon. Might be the worst is done.†“No.†Sam wiped his nose, and pointed south with a fat finger, toward the gathering darkness. “There,†he said. No sooner had he spoken than lightning flashed, sudden and silent and blinding bright. The distant clouds glowed for half a heartbeat, mountains heaped on mountains, purple and red and yellow, taller than the world. “The worst isn’t done. The worst is just beginning, and there are no happy endings.†Could this be foreshadowing for the night watch, or entire westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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