AFFC Reread Project - Samwell (+Prologue)

[Green Apple Fossoway]

This is just a thin theory, but we know that the children of the forest were quite fond of obsidian. Perhaps that one green candle has some reference to them and their coming role in the battle with the Others? Scetchy at best, I know, but I always assumed that that one was theirs at some point. Also, do the Maesters have any correlation to the Andals? Maybe their mistrust of magic stems from that? It's been way too long since I slept so I'm probably not making very much sense. Just thought I'd throw those out there.

[LadySoftheart]

Very short comments because you all have been so very, very thorough. First of all a HUGE thank you to this board for the Sarella/Alleras connection which I never made at all – it adds a layer to this prologue even beyond all the many interesting things going on here. And there I was feeling proud of myself for making the Jaquen=Alchemist connection!

If Braavos is Venice, Oldtown seems to me more like Paris (circa Abelard) with the Schools and the big important city. I loved seeing it (even though I couldn’t find it at all on the darned map for the longest time) because it was a completely different facet of Westeros (and again I am in absolute awe of how wonderfully detailed and brilliantly constructed this world is – so many different places that are so convincing!)

About the glass candles there are four, not a number which seems significant except they are different, one green, three black.

Green= First Men/Children of the Forest? Jojen’s Green Dreams? Bran’s quest, whatever it is – which I feel like we have a tendency to ignore in favor of Dany & Jon Snow Maybe the dragon has three heads is not a literal thing about who will ride the three dragons but the three pronged defense of Westeros from the Others – Jon heads one side (the Wall); Dany a second (the dragons) and Bran and his quest for the Heart of Winter the third?

Lastly, you are all super smart and I’m nodding my head in agreement…

[Lady of Leaves]

Also I remembered that male sphynxes were called androsphynxes. Andro is the prefix to another word, androgenous which also seems to fit Sarella.

Interesting theories you had there Ned's Head, I especially liked your thoughts on the green candle.

Andro means male - literally (in greek). But this means that sphinx per definition is female - so it just adds to the significance of Alleras being called the Sphinx if that being is in fact female.

[LordNed'sHead]

I was listening to the audiobook on my drive today and in a Cersei chapter Lady Merryweather asked Cersei if she wanted to visit a sorceror in King's Landing who among other things could turn men into women and vice versa. I am probably reading way to much into it. Its likely just Flea Bottom pot shop gossip that he can work magic of that nature. But what if Sarella paid him or a similar mage a visit before her trip to Oldtown?

Do we know for certain wether or not she went with Oberyn to King's Landing?

Its pretty wild speculation, but these boards tend to put me in brainstorming mode.

[Waterdancer]

I think I missed that one LordHed. Can you tell me when they talked about that? I have the e-book and searched on sorcery, sorcerer, magician, and magic and couldn't seem to find it.

[LordNed'sHead]

It was later in the book. after the bedroom scene between Cersei and Merryweather. I think Lady Merryweather is picking up on Cersei's lust for power and secret wish to be more like Jaime or her father. I think it was the chapter that she sent Loras of to storm Dragonstone.

[Velaryon]

Concerning Rosey's father:

Could Rosey be a Tyrell bastard?

She seems to have the Tyrell look, hazel eyes, curly locks... that's how I remember Magaery being described, at least. I could be wrong, though, had not the time to find a description of Magaery yet. The location (Oldtown) and her name (Rosey - Rose - the golden rose of House Tyrell) would fit, too.

Concerning the FM and guilt:

Arya kills Dareon after he deserts the Night's Watch and the FM seems to approve her actions, Jaquen kills Pate after he stole the key... but if FM could only kill people who commited a crime, I don't see how they could work as assasins... we haven't heard that they reject contracts?

[Waterdancer]

Daven Lannister has a pug nose, tangled yellow hair, and hazel eyes.

Hyle Hunt has hazel eyes, but brown hair.

Leo Tyrell has hazel eyes and ash blond hair.

Dareon has hazel eyes and fair hair.

Margaery's hair and eyes are brown. Her hair curls, though.

[Happy Ent]

Timeline

Dating the Wall chapters is terribly difficult. (Arya and Dany will be even harder.) But here goes.

In Storm, Jaime IX we hear from Lord Tywin that Varys' fishermen spies report that Stannis has left Dragonstone. I assume Varys' spies are pretty efficient, so let me venture

Jan 15 300 Stannis leaves Dragonstone

Oberyn just died a few days ago, and Tywin himself has a week (?) left to live, all depending on how long we think Tyrion rots in his cell awaiting execution.

Now what? Stannis' entire fleet travels to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and from there to Castle Black. How long does that take? I have no idea. Sam's own voyage from EbtS to Bravos takes weeks. But... (interesting tidbit follows)

Stannis' fleet had favourable winds, rumour has it that Mel has burned a man on Dragonstone for that. This sounds a lot like the voyage of the Iron Fleet to the Shield Isles, also facilitated by some unspecified sorcery. I guess it's the same spell, Euron has a firemage from Asshai of similar power as Melisandre. Both cast Wind Control +4, level 5.

So I will allow two weeks from Dragonstone until Stannis' forces arrive at Castle Black, in one of the finest moments of the books. That's still super-fast.

Feb 1 300 Stannis defeats Mance Rayder

From there we have 10 days of politicking until Jon Snow is elected. Let's assume the Black Brothers needed two days after the battle to get themselves organised

Feb 13 300 Jon Snow elected Lord Commander

This is three weeks after the first Brienne and Cersei chapters. So for how long has Jon been Lord Commander when Sam I finally starts? A fortnight? Actually, I have the feeling it's less than that, but until we find textual confirmation I will put:

Feb 27-28 Sam I

Edit to add:

Well, on second thoughts, this doesn't work at all, because Jon writes a letter to Lord Tywin in Sam I. There is no reason to assume that Castle Black should be left in the dark about Lord Tywin's death, and there is no shortage of unreturned ravens at King's Landing. So Sam I plays no later than 2 days after Lord Tywin's death.

This destroys my entire reasoning so far, of course. I guess Tyrion will have to spend weeks in the black cell, awaiting his execution. Poor Tyrion.

[Urri]

Well, on second thoughts, this doesn't work at all, because Jon writes a letter to Lord Tywin in Sam I. There is no reason to assume that Castle Black should be left in the dark about Lord Tywin's death, and there is no shortage of unreturned ravens at King's Landing. So Sam I plays no later than 2 days after Lord Tywin's death.

That might depend on whether the news of Stanis' landing at the Wall has reached Kings's Landing at that point. In that case it might well be that no one sends a raven to the Wall, as this would inform Stannis, too.

And I think two weeks for the journey from Dragonstone to Castle Black is far to optimistic: maybe the sea journey could be done in that time (with very favourable winds) but I'd add the best part of another week to that for unloading at Eastwatch, getting the army into a marching state and the actual way from Eastwatch to Castle Black. I don't recall whether all Stanis' men and the accompanying men of the Watch were mounted, but even if they were the ride from Eastwatch to Castle Black (~ 100 miles ?) should have lasted at least 2 days, as they had to use "rangers' ways" north of the wall.

So I'd rather add another week to your count and conclude from John's letter that indeed for some reason no word of Tywin's death has yet reached the wall.

[Maia]

I'd also think that not even a raven could cross such a huge distance in just 2 days. A week is more likely, IMHO. Also, why would anybody in KL hasten to infrom the NW or anybody in the North for that matter, of Tywin's death? IMHO, much more likely the news had to to be carried by word-of-mouth to some North sympathizer in the Riverlands, then sent by raven to a Northern Lord... who at some point decided to drop the newsbit to guys at the Wall. It could have taken several weeks for news to reach NW in such fashion.

Similar, but less extreme considerations apply to the Dornish timeline too, IMHO.

[The hairy bear]

About the timeline:

If Tywin's death is discovered on the 22nd Jan, his death should be well known at the Wall (specially with Stannis court there) far before than the 27th Feb.

We should push all the events at the Wall back! There's another reason for that: at the last Sam chapter in Feast, it is said something to the extent that there has been only two month turns after the beginning of the Century. (Someone should check the quote, since I don't have the books right now ).

So perhaps we should:

-Assume that Stannis departs Dragonstone a couple of days before.

-Assume that the trip to the wall was faster. Would a length of 4 or 5 days be belivable?

-Assume that the black brothers didn't waste a single day recovering for the battle, and they started choosing the next LC that first night? (perhaps not too unlikely).

-Assume that just a couple of days take place between Jon's election and Sam I.

That would put Sam I around the 31st of Jannuary... Just a week after Tywin's death...

Wow, it's hard to make it work

[sh_wulff]

drive by to say I really enjoy reading the calculations of the story's time lines

it's obvious a great deal of thought goes into them

[Happy Ent]

HB, thank you for the input. I can push Sam I back to Feb 1, assuming some really slow Varys spies (that would even make sense!) and super-magical sea voyage from Dragonstone to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.

There's another reason for that: at the last Sam chapter in Feast, it is said something to the extent that there has been only two month turns after the beginning of the Century. (Someone should check the quote, since I don't have the books right now ).

I can't believe that. Please somebody check it.

[the sweetling]

Sorry Hairy Bear, didn't find any "2 months" quote in Sam's last chapter...

[Jon Targaryen]

We get confirmation that Jaehaerys came on a dragon of his own.

One of my new favorite quotes: We all shed our blood for the Watch.

“Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own.†Heh.

The First Men didn’t write.

The last hero slayed Others with a blade of dragonsteel.

Lord Snow reminds me most of Tywin Lannister. Jon has become a lord in truth.

Is the inn Aemon refers to the one we saw in the Prologue?

[Happy Ent]

Random tidbits for Sam I.

I liked Sam reading. It's an easy trick for an author to make characters likeable by giving them the same traits as the reader probably has, but it still works. Sam is a book geek. More power to him, and death to that pesky rodent. "No mouse is a match for Septon Meribald."

I wonder what is in the Jade Compendium.

I observed this in another thread already: when Jon sees that Sam cannot go to Oldtown because he is haunted by his father, he becomes Lord Snow instead, "putting on his Lord's face", and plainly orders Sam to obey. Very sharp, very cold, without a shred of empathy. And it works, of course. Jon is a good judge of character and a very good leader. He knows which buttons to press.

The baby-switch I saw immediately. Gilly almost slips when she asks Jon to "take care of t'other, I mean Dalla's boy, I mean the little prince" or something like that. She then tells Jon, angrily, that she is no lady but a mother. It's all very heart-breaking and terrible, of course. What a terrible thing to do, and what a terrible decision for Jon and Maester Aemon. Gilly is defeated, parting with her boy (whose survival has been a cause of much action before) to save Aemon "Battleborn" Steelsong. (Not that's a name, Darkstar!)

And just when Jon could get any more cold and grim and "Lord Commander"-ly, the chapter ends on a painfully beautiful line that turns everything around again. Pull your hood up, Sam. The snowflakes are melting in your hair. It went right past my on my first read, but there have been many mentions of it on other threads since. It is of course the exact same thing that Jon observed when he said is farewell to Robb.

There are no trees mentioned at all in this chapter.

Is the inn Aemon refers to the one we saw in the Prologue?

Certainly. Aemon remembers drinking cider there, though he doesn't call it "fearsomely strong". Maybe Targaryens are immune to cider as well...

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yes, Sam reading was very nice touch. Those Annals of Black Centaur sound like fascinating reading, though .

Jon,s friends clearly resent him somewhat, since he has no time for them, but I don't think it is anything serious. Jon is very diligent about his training, and it does seem likely that he is going to become great swordsman. We got wink about Jon's parentage - Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I am no Valyrian, and then second, when Jon says that Mance isn't any more king's blood than he. Twice in one chapter is perhaps a little bit too much.

Child swap does seem obvious in retrospect. Giilz also mentions that her child doesn't cry while Dalla's boy cries a lot. Sam says that he read somewhere that goat's milk is betterfor a baby than cow's milk - info coming from our own Dalla with Child who was asked by GRRM for advice.

I also wonder what possibly could be in Jade Compendium what would be important to Jon. Nothing ocurs to me, frankly. I am afraid that without Aemon and Sam Jon is left with no brainpower. Nobody is going to dig out any important info for him in the next few years.

I loved Jon's transformation from a youth into a leader. It is written very convincingly, IMHO. Sam finds for him four LCs who were younger than he - he obviously had to voice misgivings about his young age.

I also loved that we are told that legends from old ages are extremely unreliable - something Rodrik the Reader also admits. Soe people on the board complained that Westerosi culture appears unchanged through eight thousand years, but now Martin says us that it is mainly effcto of retrofitting of old legends who have knights going to battle a thousand years before there were any knights etc. Very nice touch!

[Urri]

One other IMO very interesting thing we learn about the history of Westeros and the Watch comes from Sam's observation that the oldest list of Lord Commanders he has found counts roughly 650 names. Compared to the ~1000 commanders the Watch has had in its 8000 years history(*) that means that list is ~2500 years old. That no older lists exists might simply be due to the long time, but it also leaves the possibility open that the Watch (and thereby the last appearance of the "long night") might be far younger than legend has it, maybe even as "recent" as 3000-4000 years.

(*) 1000 commanders in 8000 years seems actually quite reasonable, it is e.g. comparable to the 265 popes in 2000 years of christian history. So if the older lists are "heroic forgeries" the authors did at least a good job.

[Jaehaerys]

I wonder what is in the Jade Compendium.

I think it may be the AA legend. In Davos's first chapter in ACOK Mel says "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after the long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world...." (ACOK US ed. pg. 111)