Military Training

[Ramsay's Penguins]

He almost certainly was. Even if soldiers as worthless as him existed, they wouldn't be sent to fight a war on another continent. He was just some asshole who followed the elite host looking for plunder. This also explains why his group of five only had one noted weapon between them.

I'm doubt that the lord goes through everyman and says nope, you can stay home, you can come etc. So you can't determine which would be sent to fight. Plus, how does a peasant get to the Stepstones? I don't think he's just some random, he was probably there for a reason.

While it is likely that he could be a camp follower, it is no proof that all soldiers aren't peasants and no proof that all soldiers are either.

The Frey's use peasants. They are part of Roose's host going north. There is untrained farm boys in the Lannister army at the Green Fork, and they use them again at Oxcross (pot boys from Lannisport or something). They were training them, so they were untrained before.

While the majority is certainly professional or at least trained, some are just peasants.

[Universal Sword Donor]

You can see dozens of people on here argue that the troops are well trained, and well armed. They'll bring up dozens of quotes, and mention formations, armour and weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sjZHxEZnmE

Listen to that, he isn't talking about Camp Followers. Were getting direct tstimony, which can't be argured with.

First off, I'm not going to listen for 5 minutes to something that I've read half a dozen times. What he is saying is directly contradicted by the text, you know when we see the actual soldiers march and fight. We don't get a description of the Oxcross gentlemen, but we do of Tyrion's van and the Frey peasants:

the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

So minus the freeriders and sellswords, the men seem to be ill-equipped but they do have weapons of war and horses!

peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks,

Okay the sharped sticks aren't great but they still all have weapons of a sort.

Then Meribald and his buddies have: 1 knife his older brother stole from the inn

So how again is it clear that Meribald was a soldier? I mean the host that went to the stepstones was led the Lord Baratheon, had the White Bull, Ser Barristan, and the crown prince in addition to Tywin, Brynden, Tyg, and Steffon. They were fighting the most feared and respected mercenary company as well as the powers of some captured Free Cities. They'd not have brought along trash soldiers like that for a serious threat to the realm.

I'm doubt that the lord goes through everyman and says nope, you can stay home, you can come etc. So you can't determine which would be sent to fight. Plus, how does a peasant get to the Stepstones? I don't think he's just some random, he was probably there for a reason.

While it is likely that he could be a camp follower, it is no proof that all soldiers aren't peasants and no proof that all soldiers are either.

The Frey's use peasants. They are part of Roose's host going north. There is untrained farm boys in the Lannister army at the Green Fork, and they use them again at Oxcross (pot boys from Lannisport or something). They were training them, so they were untrained before.

While the majority is certainly professional or at least trained, some are just peasants.

1) The Freys are being told to project force they can't afford 1000 miles away from their lands in late autumn in a part of the continent that gets dozens of feet of snow every winter. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Note that none of those peasants were there when Walder massed his forces before letting Robb cross.

2) The Lannister "half-trained" peasants were part of a deliberate trap.

3) The oxcross host was either 2nd or 3rd wave of recruitment. Once again the cream was largely gone, so yeah they'd need to be trained.

Meribald was part of the first wave of troops. He would have been well armed, trained, and armored if he were an actual soldier instead of following the camps.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So how again is it clear that Meribald was a soldier? I mean the host that went to the stepstones was led the Lord Baratheon, had the White Bull, Ser Barristan, and the crown prince in addition to Tywin, Brynden, Tyg, and Steffon. They were fighting the most feared and respected mercenary company as well as the powers of some captured Free Cities. They'd not have brought along trash soldiers like that for a serious threat to the realm.

You've forgotten Hoster and Brynden Tully as well as Jon Arryn. And probably Rickard Stark as well. And Lord Dustin's uncle.

[Universal Sword Donor]

You've forgotten Hoster and Brynden Tully as well as Jon Arryn. And probably Rickard Stark as well. And Lord Dustin's uncle.

Didn't forget Brynden ;). Did forget the others and left out others for brevity/laziness.

[James Arryn]

We know. We know that his entire band had one single, stolen kitchen knife between them. We know that they weren't called upon by their Lord but marched for glory and plunder.

They were camp followers, as much as Shae was. That Septon Merribald polishes the truth is understandable.

This is circular reasoning, though. In the question of how well trained/armed soldiers were, you are concluding he was no soldier because he wasn't well trained/armed.

Battlefield archeology from the Wars of the Roses period paint a much less uniform picture. Some men were clearly veterans with prior wounds and decent equipment, but there were also a large amount of quite young boys lacking much protection. Generally the core of your army are veterans, the rest closer to a levy. Tyrion's views might be much more descriptive of the front line troops he could see; front liners generally being your best troops at least until cannon became widely used.

The economics of Westeros don't seem to afford enough regular combat to maintain full time soldiers at too great a rate, that I can see. Just not enough warring going on in general.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Considering I use the descriptions of actual, observed soldiers as anchor, it's anything but circular reasoning.

I do not use Septon Merribald to confirm anything at all. I poke holes in his story.

[Universal Sword Donor]

This is circular reasoning, though. In the question of how well trained/armed soldiers were, you are concluding he was no soldier because he wasn't well trained/armed.

Battlefield archeology from the Wars of the Roses period paint a much less uniform picture. Some men were clearly veterans with prior wounds and decent equipment, but there were also a large amount of quite young boys lacking much protection. Generally the core of your army are veterans, the rest closer to a levy. Tyrion's views might be much more descriptive of the front line troops he could see; front liners generally being your best troops at least until cannon became widely used.

The economics of Westeros don't seem to afford enough regular combat to maintain full time soldiers at too great a rate, that I can see. Just not enough warring going on in general.

Even the shittiest levies we see were far and away better armed than 1 in 5 with a stolen kitchen knife. And Meribald himself calls everyone "boys". They likely ran off to find "adventure" and found that "Holy shit war is awful, even for people who are prepared for it."

[James Arryn]

Considering I use the descriptions of actual, observed soldiers as anchor, it's anything but circular reasoning.

I do not use Septon Merribald to confirm anything at all. I poke holes in his story.

You're still assuming the 'actual, observed soldier' is the norm, though. You can't ague that without starting with a conclusion.

[James Arryn]

Even the shittiest levies we see were far and away better armed than 1 in 5 with a stolen kitchen knife. And Meribald himself calls everyone "boys". They likely ran off to find "adventure" and found that "Holy shit war is awful, even for people who are prepared for it."

I don't see the inconsistency. Boys is very often a generalized term for soldiers. In American Civil war correspondence, for example, it is probably the most universally applied term to describe soldiers of any age or experience. The Red Badge of Courage describes the exact same experience of adventure and disillusionment Meribald cites. It's pretty common.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I don't see the inconsistency. Boys is very often a generalized term for soldiers. In American Civil war correspondence, for example, it is probably the most universally applied term to describe soldiers of any age or experience. The Red Badge of Courage describes the exact same experience of adventure and disillusionment Meribald cites. It's pretty common.

More specifically, he called himself too young. Either way, the age is the lesser part of the argument. They clearly were not expected to go to war as soldiers. If they were, they'd have had more than a kitchen knife. Osgrey's men were given sharpened sticks and wicker shields (or made them). Frey peasants have scythes and pitchforks. The Lannister contingent had horses, scythes, and poor quality swords.

If someone in power had expected them to fight, they'd at least have made them bring weapons.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

This is circular reasoning, though. In the question of how well trained/armed soldiers were, you are concluding he was no soldier because he wasn't well trained/armed.

Battlefield archeology from the Wars of the Roses period paint a much less uniform picture. Some men were clearly veterans with prior wounds and decent equipment, but there were also a large amount of quite young boys lacking much protection. Generally the core of your army are veterans, the rest closer to a levy. Tyrion's views might be much more descriptive of the front line troops he could see; front liners generally being your best troops at least until cannon became widely used.

The economics of Westeros don't seem to afford enough regular combat to maintain full time soldiers at too great a rate, that I can see. Just not enough warring going on in general.

I wonder if one should be so quick to assume that experience is necessary for quality though.

Nowadays the vast majority of military personnel in the world, including even elite units, have never fought in any battles. Much less been wounded in them. This does not mean that they are crappy, or even necessarily any worse than soldiers who have fought in wars (compare videos of Syrian soldiers who have been fighting for several years now vs. any regular Western infantry...) As long as you are well trained and organized you can be a good soldier anyway.

I don't see why things would be so different in medieval style warfare?

[Nihlus]

I wonder if one should be so quick to assume that experience is necessary for quality though.

Nowadays the vast majority of military personnel in the world, including even elite units, have never fought in any battles. Much less been wounded in them. This does not mean that they are crappy, or even necessarily any worse than soldiers who have fought in wars (compare videos of Syrian soldiers who have been fighting for several years now vs. any regular Western infantry...) As long as you are well trained and organized you can be a good soldier anyway.

I don't see why things would be so different in medieval style warfare?

To be completely fair, almost any soldiers would look like crack commandos compared to the pure suck and fail that is the Arab armies. Especially Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

I'm doubt that the lord goes through everyman and says nope, you can stay home, you can come etc. So you can't determine which would be sent to fight. Plus, how does a peasant get to the Stepstones? I don't think he's just some random, he was probably there for a reason.

While it is likely that he could be a camp follower, it is no proof that all soldiers aren't peasants and no proof that all soldiers are either.

The Frey's use peasants. They are part of Roose's host going north. There is untrained farm boys in the Lannister army at the Green Fork, and they use them again at Oxcross (pot boys from Lannisport or something). They were training them, so they were untrained before.

While the majority is certainly professional or at least trained, some are just peasants.

Just follow the army. On that note, why would someone as shitty as him get sent on the first wave?

The Frey peasants should just be there to dig ditches. It's the Knights, men-at-arms, pikemen, bowmen, horse archers, and light cavalry described in the same host that do the fighting. They're camp followers. If Tywin's army is be taken as an example, only ~1-2% of troops would be "peasants with sharpened sticks", and that's assuming that THOSE guys weren't just pressed camp followers too.

Tywin's vanguard, consisting of 1,000 men meant to trick Roose, are described as: a handful of Knights, a "swarming mass" of mercenaries, some freeriders in boiled leather/padded armor on horses with swords and the occasional scythe, mountain clansmen in mail wielding steel spears and axes, and some "half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport". Note that only the minority of this tiny part of the army are described as being bad; that "swarming mass" of mercenaries + Tyrion's 300 clansmen + Gregor's handful of Knights should account for the majority of the vanguard, at least by a bit. And even then, the worst soldiers of the worst component of the army are only "half-trained" rather than untrained, and wielding what Tyrion thinks are rusty swords rather than kitchen knives and sticks.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

To be completely fair, almost any soldiers would look like crack commandos compared to the pure suck and fail that is the Arab armies. Especially Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

Indeed. But it goes to show that they haven't improved much by getting experience.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Overall the bulk of them will be professionals or semi pros , rich lords could of course arm extra barely trained peasants to add numbers (freys, lannisters etc ) but most in the feudal armies will have trained in arms to some degree.

Id imagine given the frequency of warefare in westeros most lords will insist on some drills every so often to keep their own levies battle ready and the men themselves will train with their arms almost daily (we even see some common troops asking jamie on tips on fighting on his 2nd riverrun campaign)

[Ramsay's Penguins]

snip

1) The Freys are being told to project force they can't afford 1000 miles away from their lands in late autumn in a part of the continent that gets dozens of feet of snow every winter. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Note that none of those peasants were there when Walder massed his forces before letting Robb cross.

2) The Lannister "half-trained" peasants were part of a deliberate trap.

3) The oxcross host was either 2nd or 3rd wave of recruitment. Once again the cream was largely gone, so yeah they'd need to be trained.

Meribald was part of the first wave of troops. He would have been well armed, trained, and armored if he were an actual soldier instead of following the camps.

1. Scraping the bottom of the barrel is still using peasants. When it is absolutely necessary peasants are obviously used.

2. They were still part of the army. Even if they are in the minority they are still there.

3. So they are untrained peasants!

4. Irregardless of whether Meribald is a camp follower there is peasants fighting.

I know you people love the E-Ro thing, but they are not all 100% trained troops. Some Westerosi lords skimp and bring along any man they can.

Osgrey comes to mind. Just a landed knights, but he's training peasants, so soldiers have to start somewhere.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1. Scraping the bottom of the barrel is still using peasants. When it is absolutely necessary peasants are obviously used.

2. They were still part of the army. Even if they are in the minority they are still there.

3. So they are untrained peasants!

4. Irregardless of whether Meribald is a camp follower there is peasants fighting.

I know you people love the E-Ro thing, but they are not all 100% trained troops. Some Westerosi lords skimp and bring along any man they can.

Osgrey comes to mind. Just a landed knights, but he's training peasants, so soldiers have to start somewhere.

WHOOOOOOSH

Meribald was one of five buddies who were untrained, unarmored, and unequipped to fight in a war. They were not brought along at anyone's behest. They went because they wanted to.

1) So almost never

2) They weren't untrained. They were specifically noted as half-trained and were stilled equipped far beyond what Meribald and his buddies had.

3) They weren't campaigning yet. They were in the process of being trained in their home country in an ostensibly secure location. Literally everyone is technically a peasant except nobility and knights in Westeros. The Lannisport bunch were in the process of becoming trained soldiers.

4) Because no one stopped them from following the soldiers?

5) Osgrey left them behind because they'd be more of a hindrance than a help

Lots of people "love" the E-ro thing because

1) it's textually supported

2) it's pretty accurate to the time period GRRM is basing it on

3) We've never actually seen untrained peasants fight in universe as part of the army

[Ramsay's Penguins]

WHOOOOOOSH

Meribald was one of five buddies who were untrained, unarmored, and unequipped to fight in a war. They were not brought along at anyone's behest. They went because they wanted to.

1) So almost never

2) They weren't untrained. They were specifically noted as half-trained and were stilled equipped far beyond what Meribald and his buddies had.

3) They weren't campaigning yet. They were in the process of being trained in their home country in an ostensibly secure location. Literally everyone is technically a peasant except nobility and knights in Westeros. The Lannisport bunch were in the process of becoming trained soldiers.

4) Because no one stopped them from following the soldiers?

5) Osgrey left them behind because they'd be more of a hindrance than a help

Lots of people "love" the E-ro thing because

1) it's textually supported

2) it's pretty accurate to the time period GRRM is basing it on

3) We've never actually seen untrained peasants fight in universe as part of the army

1. Still sometimes.

2. Half-trained then. I don't give a shit about Meribald! He was (probably) a camp follower. Not all peasants are.

3. Yeah, there were in training. Therefore untrained before. And that means they aren't part of the first levies, but second one. Worser quality troops.

5. Osgrey didn't send them away, Duncan did because he knew that peasants in training would get slaughtered. Osgrey wanted them to go to war.

3. We have seen peasants being trained, which means that untrained peasants are conscripted and then marched off to war (though they are trained), but they are not career soldiers.

Socks these days...

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

Per the traveling septon whose name is failing me, most of them were just swept along, poorly trained and not well armed.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

The idea of sweeping up massive numbers of untrained peasants to form an army is largely fictional. The society of Westeros seems to most closely mirror Europe in the High Middle Ages, but even during the Early Middle Ages, armies were most likely to be made up of a relatively small number of men who were trained and equipped by their lord. The immense cost of transporting and feeding troops during that time meant that you wanted to get the most out of whoever you brought, so bringing thousands of untrained peasants wouldn't have made sense from a strategic standpoint. Nearly all of the troops who crusaded beside Richard the Lionheart in the late 12th century were either knights or professional men-at-arms. Most men-at-arms rode to the battlefield on horseback, and dismounted to fight.

GRRM makes a big deal about describing how poor and under equipped the common soldiers are, but this seems to be his way of distinguishing between the wealthy nobles who see war as sport and the poor peasants who can barely defend themselves.

[The_lost_arryn19]

Extremely good, like 14th or 15th century western European soldiers. This can be seen every time an army is described. The peasants that follow the army aren't meant to fight, but to dig ditches, build fortifications, and help with other manual labor. The actual soldiers, who train part time all year as that's the reason they have their land to begin with, are the ones who fight.

Meribald was just a bullshitter. His friends were camp followers, not soldiers. So was he.

No; just no. First off in the 20k northern army that marched south at least 10k if not way more were just levied peasants. They are barely armed of they are armored at all and have whatever weapon they could steal or make. Knight and men at arms were better equipped and trained but the majority of all westerosi armies are just levies. The levies are used for pushing, building, and digging but they are a VERY important part of the main battle. First every man is a weapon. Secondly the peasants are the ones who form up the spear lines. Third they are arrow fodder and bodies to be slaughtered. Every peasant that is getting slaughtered is a opening for a better trained knight or men at arms to kill.

In all anyone who thinks that the westerosi army is a majority of knights and men at arms and not MOSTLY peasants needs to re-read. Also to deny the battle strategic value of the levied troops shows a real military ignorance.

If I have to go further in defense and or explanation just ask.