Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

It so easy to get confused. I don't think AE was literally Nissa Nissa, because the latter is already a personification of the Moon. They're both expressions of the same archetype. Each expression, each story, gives us hints as to what the archetype is: Nissa Nissa, that she was a wife; AE, that she was not willingly sacrificed (thus explaining a point in the Nissa Nissa story that is highlighted IN TEXT as being "unknown", as to why she would sacrifice herself).

We don't know how AE was "sacrificed", but poison may have figured in her version of the archetypal story, or a figurative poison (as a metaphor for the corruption of the realm).

It feels like we're debating religious doctrine by the way.

[Nozlym]

i might be off track here but i thought that after BSE usurped AE she either ran away/escaped or after the long night with the destruction of their home in away, went to in start the foundation of Valyria.

[LmL]

I myself am very firmly of the opinion that "the Bloodstone Emperor" 'is just another name for the person we've always known as Azor Ahai. The black stone he worshipped was the one used to make Lightbringer. Likewise, "the Amethyst Empress" is merely another name or title for the person we've always known as Nissa Nissa.

By telling us slightly different versions of the story with different names, he's made a nice little puzzle for us. But in both versions of the story, the killing of the women was the trigger for the LN, terrestrially, and was mirrored by the moon's destruction at the hands of the comet. That's because they are the same woman. We needed the story of the BSE and AE to understand the real truth behind AA and NN.

Some of the other legends of people stealing goddesses may be parallel manifestations or whatever, but I feel pretty good about AA / NN = BSE / AE.

Daenerys ties up the NN / AE connections pretty tight. She's the moon of Drogo's life who burns herself to birth three dragons. That's easy to correlate to Nissa Nissa, "grandmother moon," who burned and birthed three dragons. The Amethyst Empress of course matches Dany's Amethyst Eyes, and in the dream the Amethyst-eyed kingly ghost had silver gold hair. It seems clear that the Valyrians descended in some way from the amethyst-eyed people of the GEotD.

The GEotD is the ancient race of dragonlords, and Azor Ahai means fire dragon. The fire dragon comet turned out the light by killing the moon; the fire dragon person turned out the lights by killing his wife and sister, the Amethyst Empress, Nissa Nissa.

Azor Ahai, the fire dragon, can only be from the empire of the ancient dragonlords. Since the astronomy says that AA caused the LN, it makes sense to find an emperor of the ancient dragonlords who is blamed for the long night... who killed a maiden to gain his power.

[Nozlym]

i always saw it as when the BSE usurped AE, at the same time or near enough, we get the destruction of the moon, which causes the long night.

the BSE didnt deliberately cause the long night with spells or anything, it just happened at the same time as he took over. so people just linked him to it.

[LmL]

Hey everybody...

BOO-YAH!!

[Jak Scaletongue]

Heh I edited my post before I saw your reply - yes I think the dragon horn might have something to do with GEotD.

If we take the simplest possible explanation, the Valyrian dragonlords didn't NEED the dragon horn (or any other magical way to bind dragons) because they were born with a natural ability to bond with them. There are other possibilities, like maybe the Targs rediscovered natural dragon bonding from some books at the Citadel, once they conquered Westeros - but that's a more complicated explanation, so I set it aside for now.

i later thought that the Vals had the horns as "back up", in case one of them is born without being able to bond with a dragon. But now I'm not sure: just having the horn around is such a vulnerability. If someone stole it, you're potentially screwed.

I know the horn seems like it would have been a common implement in Valyria, because it's presented as being used by "the dragonlords of old" - but if you think about it, it's almost suicidal to have magical items around that can bind your dragons to people, if you already have a much safer method: through your children.

None of this is definitive, but it might point to the dragon horn predating Valyria, and being how the GeoDawnians controlled dragons.

Valyrian glyphs that are found on the horn might thus be GeoDawnian script.

All the horns seem to come from pre-LN - but that just might be the stories we're told. The Horn of Joramun's gotta be right around the LN - he was the one that helped the Stark defeat the NK, right? So that one's pretty ancient - and that's assuming Joramun made it himself. It might be older yet and just named after the last person known to have it. I don't know much about the horns we've seen, but they're all described as pre-Andal, right? Or implied? (note on NK: I tend to place him closer to the LN than some other theories I've seen, mostly because in and around the LN, LC's were probably dropping like flies - but we've got anywhere from an average of 1 year per LC up to 10 years per LC and that gets you anywhere from ~13 years after LN to ~130 years after LN. I generally assume somewhere in the middle, ~5 years per LC but that's more on the high end of my assumption - and it's just that, assumption, based on my RL habit of assuming the truth is usually in the middle!)

But yeah, it's seems a bit of a liability having these dragon horns lying around when, theoretically, the Valyrians didn't need them cause they had "blood" bonds, or whatever.

Which means, if the dragon binding horn was GE, then it's possible the Kraken horn and the horn of Joramun are GE tech as well - which means it's *possible* that each GE Emperor could control dragons, krakens AND giants. After writing that sentence - maybe it was a BSE thing...

It could go either way - the GE was declining into "sin," maybe that's where the "mating" to dragons happened and the BSE made horns to countermand other peoples "blood bond" with their dragons? OR the GE made the horns as part of the descent into "sin" and the BSE did the "mating"?

Sorry, I should probably do some actual work while I'm at work (I'm a little behind ;)), so this is all rough ideas and I'm going to stop thinking and finish up my work so I can come back and maybe you lovely people will have torn it apart and made something new :D

[LmL]

The Celtigars also have a kraken-summoning horn. This is interesting, because in the mythology of cancer, the crab is pitted against the vampire squid and aids the leviathan (the seven headed sea dragon). We see this relationship manifest in the story, where the Celtigars are one of only three Valyrian-descended families in Westeros. The crab fights with the dragon, and the dragon certainly fought the squid during the conquest.

Point being, the enemy of the krakens has the horn to summon krakens. Both the Joramun horn and the dragonbinder horn sound like they can compel obedience from their intended target, who may be thier enemy. We should consider this line of thinking in regards to the dragonbinder horn. It could be a tool of those who want to bring down dragonlords.

[Durran Durrandon]

Squishers!

[LmL]

Can those flappy fish gums even blow a horn? Seems like it would just make a wet farting sound... Thppppttt. The horn that wakes the raspberries, how ferocious.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Can those flappy fish gums even blow a horn? Seems like it would just make a wet farting sound... Thppppttt. The horn that wakes the raspberries, how ferocious.

Well, their enemies would be too busy giggling to do much fighting...

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Hey everybody...

BOO-YAH!!

Yay!

You're going to run out of room in your signature before long... :-P

[LmL]

Yay!

You're going to run out of room in your signature before long... :-P

Have you seen Mithras' signature? Hah!

I will probably just shorten the titles to make it more compact. "astronomy 1, 2, and 3" or whatever. :)

I seriously have a lot more material to get through... My ebooks are highlighted like a preacher's Bible. With all the talk about dragonsteel and magic swords because of the show, I'm going to try to work on my swords essay next, perhaps before the next CotD essay. That one is going to be a monster. :devil:

[hiraeth]

Sorry if this was already mentioned somewhere - has anyone thought about the precession of equinoxes as the cause for the LN, I don't know, I've thought of it because of the GRRM's insistence on the South - shadow and North - ice, it's an axis, and things are definately cooking on these two polar opposites. As far as the planet Earth is concerned, precession is a periodical thing, influenced by the gravitation of the Sun, the Moon and even some planets. And, according to Milankovic theory, variations in eccentricity, axial tilt and precession of the Earth's orbit determined climatic patterns on Earth - maybe something similar takes place on the Planetos, but in a different pattern. That would not exclude any other astronomical phenomena this thread emphasises, but gravitational forces could be at work on many levels.

http://www.climatedata.info/Forcing/Forcing/milankovitchcycles.html

[Durran Durrandon]

Can those flappy fish gums even blow a horn? Seems like it would just make a wet farting sound... Thppppttt. The horn that wakes the raspberries, how ferocious.

Patchface says you are wrong, " Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

Do you dare challenge Patchface!

Um, Squishers!

[LmL]

And what dfo you think those seashells sound like underwater? Raspberries, I maintain. Although, perhaps it's more like whale calls or something.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think there is significant relation between Tywin Lannister and the Bloodstone Emperor. Heliotrope is green with yellow/red spots. This is strikingly similar to "..green with flecks of gold" for the description of Tywin's eyes.

The only other relations I can think of apply to the Lannisters slaying the ruling Targs. That lines up for the succession of Amethysts>Bloodstone.

What do you guys think? Coincidence?

I think the story of the Bloodstone Betrayal is at least loosely modeled on Robert's Rebellion, with Tywin being the Lion of Night who, "came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men." Think of the Sack of KL and the murders of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Of course in Tywin's case he wasn't so much punishing the wickedness of men, as the slights against him.

As you noted, bloodstone is or can be green spotted with red, which reminds me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident. And this fits with the fact that Robert is called the Usurper dozens of times in the series. Robert's Rebellion is even alternately known as the War of the Usurper.

I've definitely thought about this. Lann comes from the east according to some tales, and the Valyrians had hair of gold and silver and platinum - and the Lannisters always have gold hair, never blond. Not much else to go on, but I do see the symbolic parallels you're pointing at.

The Lannister House colors are red and gold, but their eyes are typically green. As you pointed out to me in PM a while back, Lann usurped Casterly Rock from the Casterlys. So the colors the Lannisters are most strongly associated with are red, green and gold. If you take out the gold, which Lann is said to have stolen from the sun, you're left with green and red, the color of bloodstone. Alternately, you could include the gold as a substitute for yellow, and then all three are the colors of bloodstone.

[LmL]

Those are also the eye colors of the cotf - gold for most of them, and red or green for greenseers.

[J. Stargaryen]

Those are also the eye colors of the cotf - gold for most of them, and red or green for greenseers.

That's right. And it was supposedly the greenseers of the CotF who called down the Hammer of the Waters that destroyed the land bridge between Essos and Westeros known as the (Broken) Arm of Dorne, splitting the land in two. Coincidentally ... or not ... the biggest island in the Stepstones is named Bloodstone.

[Durran Durrandon]

i might be off track here but i thought that after BSE usurped AE she either ran away/escaped or after the long night with the destruction of their home in away, went to in start the foundation of Valyria.

I generally run two theories in my head at the same time. Either AA=BSE and NN=AE in which case, a child of or other close descent of the AE escaped and the line of of that descendant became the Valyrians. Or BSE !=AA and AE !=NN in which case AA is actually a child of or other close descendant of the the AE, The sacrifice of NN by AA was an echo of the original sin it corrected. The AA's descendants became the Valyrians. Either way the Valyrians trace their ancestry back to the AE, but the AE was necessarily killed by the BSE, because kin slaying is necessary to make this an act that truly offends the gods.

[LmL]

J Stargar I'd love to get your thoughts on the Children Part 2...