Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Nissa and the Amethyst Empress are absolutely the same person. Nissa was killed to begin, not end the LN. The pattern is sun kills moon, both in the sky and on the ground. It all matches, or none of it does. If AA = BSE, then NN = Am Em. Nissa means "grandmother moon" - Nissa represents the moon, which was destroyed to cause, not end, the LN.

Heh, I guess this is the part where I back out of your thread again. :-)

[LmL]

Well, BSE=AA and Am Em = NN is one of the central pillars of the entire theory. I've laid out evidence for it throughout all of my essays. If you want propose a different scenario, feel free, but of course you're gonna need to provide some evidence and deal with the evidence I have presented. You don't have to back away, but please do support your ideas with evidence. The astronomy layer dictates that the sun killing the moon with his fiery sword comet is the pattern of the LN-causing events. Thus, AA killing Nissa Nissa is part of the cause of the LN, or else my entire theory is totally wrong.

[Alequo Adarys]

So would the Last Hero be different from AA in your theory? As far as I can tell the Last Hero is strictly fighting off winter with little room for other interpretation

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I don't think your astronomy theory is all or nothing.

I think AA=BSE works from lots of directions, even my gemstone stuff supports it. Moon explosion causing the long night makes sense. Nissa Nissa as the moon makes sense. I just don't see AE as Nissa Nissa, due to the very strong amethyst/poison connection.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Perhaps this is where the dragonbinding horns come into play? Maybe that's what they used originally - only making a certain number of magical horns keeps down the number of people who could use it. We've all been assuming (or, that's how I feel reading these threads, but I may have missed something ;)) that the horns are the unnatural way to bind a dragon, but what if they were the original magic used to control dragons, then BSE comes along and mates the AE with a dragon to create the human/dragon hybrid?

Then those of us who like the rough timeline we do have could still attribute the Five Forts to a dragon riding/controlling GEoTD emperor before the LN, but still have a rather brutal "blood betrayal" causing the LN as well.

And for those that don't like the rough timeline we have, you can alter as you see fit ;)

Heh I edited my post before I saw your reply - yes I think the dragon horn might have something to do with GEotD.

If we take the simplest possible explanation, the Valyrian dragonlords didn't NEED the dragon horn (or any other magical way to bind dragons) because they were born with a natural ability to bond with them. There are other possibilities, like maybe the Targs rediscovered natural dragon bonding from some books at the Citadel, once they conquered Westeros - but that's a more complicated explanation, so I set it aside for now.

i later thought that the Vals had the horns as "back up", in case one of them is born without being able to bond with a dragon. But now I'm not sure: just having the horn around is such a vulnerability. If someone stole it, you're potentially screwed.

I know the horn seems like it would have been a common implement in Valyria, because it's presented as being used by "the dragonlords of old" - but if you think about it, it's almost suicidal to have magical items around that can bind your dragons to people, if you already have a much safer method: through your children.

None of this is definitive, but it might point to the dragon horn predating Valyria, and being how the GeoDawnians controlled dragons.

Valyrian glyphs that are found on the horn might thus be GeoDawnian script.

[LmL]

My general thinking along these lines is that the original dragon bond must have been more like a skinchanger bond. The use of a binding horn represent psychic rape and enslavement - and the Bloodstone Emperor enslaved his people, so it fits his m.o.

[LmL]

Given that meteorites and comets have reached the Earth since it formed, it has been proposed that the exogenous influx from these bodies provided the organic inventories necessary for the emergence of life…an abundant exogenous delivery of ammonia, therefore, might have been significant in aiding early Earth’s molecular evolution toward prebiotic syntheses and the data in this study, showing the capability of some asteroidal bodies to provide it, would make a reasonable case for exobiology.

Just in case anyone was curious how actual scientists say "The building blocks for the first chemical reactions of life may well have come from comets."

In other words, WE might be the aliens.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

My general thinking along these lines is that the original dragon bond must have been more like a skinchanger bond. The use of a binding horn represent psychic rape and enslavement - and the Bloodstone Emperor enslaved his people, so it fits his m.o.

Same could be said of his people if he bred them as dragonrider slaves.

I see the appeal of thinking about it as skinchanging because it reduces the number of "original" magics, and makes it neater. A big proviso is that dragons aren't like other animals - they're clearly magical (what with their inexhaustible flame) so I'm not sure if it worked the same as with other animals.

[The Mother of The Others]

ugh, I'm so backed up! Straining so hard at cubicle. forced to skim the esoteric, which only enhances the mystery really.

--The Targs seem to have left many Valyrian technologies behind - this may have been a choice.

--Maybe the gemstone emperors were literally dragons, like Smaug. heh. /crackpot

-- and this horse-whisperer style dragon-bonding family were the ones spared from the fate of the rest of Valyria, like the bible story of the one family who deserved to be led out of harm's way before the town got God-stomped. The cruel Las Vegas lion-whipper society of Valyria burns, these guys don't. But then over time their... deservedness.... appears to evaporate away, squandered. Crazy targs held on too tight to the hiltless sword? The uptick in dragon breeding success may actually represent the decline of their moral standing as dragon owners/operators. They compromised their ethic, they infought, they rotted from the deadly sins of envy, they coveted what should have been the wife of another (incest), they killed the golden goose and this manifested in the wasting away of their dragons into deformity and extinction.

--this is incredibly sensual, and dovetails nicely with the human-to-dragon transformation I have planned for when Cersei immolates, to proove the source of dragons is similar to the sourcing of Others. They are us, we are them. The dragonbond and dragonblood connections are thus explained eloquently and with much bang. And Cersie is on schedule for crazy targ fire death as of press time today!!!!! If dragons were ex-humans, this would also neatly explain why the Targ dragons' health slid downhill as the Targ family lost its mind and degenerated into hatred that tore apart all their human bonds.... might not this have had a degenerative effect on their dragon bonds??? Think umbilical connection. Blood of the dragon. Extended family. You usually try not to drink so the umbilical connection doesn't shunt that poison into the baby. They let themselves implode as a family and got drunk on petty hate.... through the magical bond their dragons received the message to disintegrate.

My golden rule is that magic is always dark and evil.

That's the kind of thinking that got witches ganked real hard for daring to practice miracles based in human effort, because human efforts weren't supposed to outperform the religion's miracles. Any source of magic was an enemy then. There's something clean to that notion, obviously, since they were trying to clean up the world for their deity to remain the only source of supernatural power. Clean as in easy to grasp, and you can feel the gothic heaviness of it fascinating you when you say something as definitive as, "We're not supposed to have access to magic, period. So all instances of it are going to end badly and undermine our species somehow, because we're not made to handle it and can only mishandle it."

I like to think of the angelic magic as the original name brand of power that's hardwired into the cosmos but has since been painted over by the abominable magics of chaos and evil that have come to dominate all of creation. Meaning there is magic out there that can potentially be a plus without costing anyone their soul. It's just tough to access because evil created thievery for the chief purpose of stealing magic so they could invert and besmirch it and render foul any magic we lowly fuckers might conceivably get our hands on. That's where the perception comes from that magic only works against us in the way Faustus learned not to trust the devil because the devil always betrays you and always wins. We're blunt creatures compared to magic which would dance around us in a circle of nuance we couldn't comprehend. So, like Martin's hilt-less sword, it'd be beyond out ability to truly control, and would seem to inherently be bent on working against the original creation, as if its mission was to alter (disrespect) the cosmos the angels built. But that's just the low-hanging fruit of the magic world. The original magic would have been used to construct the cosmos, not to subvert it as devils are wont to do. If we acquired a bit of that first magic it would also appear to undo the world that is-----but it'd be changing things in the opposite direction from how evil magic changes the world: the proper magic would roll back the corruption of the universe and recreate the world as it was intended to be so long ago in the garden before all went awry. Its use would be like scratching away the dirt and dust layers to bring back the shine and luster of the wooden furniture that time had gunked up. That's right, proper magic would operate like cosmic Pine Sol, it'd clear away the haze and confusion and chaos of the modern reality to give us a glimpse of the unfucked reality that's always been there underneath, the original design "magically" restored.

I think it's an interesting debate, and one which martin wants to encourage. Is ALL magic bad? Is it a sword without a hilt, no safe way to handle it? Do we need it anyway, hilt or no? Seems like it is meant to be ambiguous. I am not sure myself, although I do think the ending might involve no more magic.

If a sword-without-a-hilt is going to be a factor in who can figure out how to use magic successfully......

notice how Jaime improved his soul by having his hand cut off? As if he's a big step closer to being a worthy AA contender who can supposedly weild magic for the betterment of the world without it turning him into Sauron?

by not having a hand, is it tougher for magic to cut him? It has not hilt, he has no hand with which to grab at magic and abuse it. (I'm talking here about how the A-hole side of his ego seems to have sloughed off along with the sword hand. He seems to be no longer led astray by human failings / temptations / weaknesses. He's a warrior ready for a cosmic level challenge. For such a prepared soul, maybe not all magic ends in evil. Because he can "handle" it, having given up the willful prideful hand that Man would normally abuse power with.

[LmL]

The way that the Targaryens bond with dragons seems a lot like a skinchanger bond, honestly. The dragons share Dany's emotions very much like the wolves do with their humans. The two things needed in both cases to form the bond seems to be blood and proximity.

I suspect the Valyrians used horns and / or blood magic to bond dragons against their will. They were slavelords, so it kind of fits their mentality.

If any of this is true, and there are two different forms, then the Targs would be practicing the older form, as they don't need horns or spells. In this scenario, Westeros itself or magical knowledge from the citadel is a likely suspect. Perhaps Daenys the dreamer figured it out.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Awesome posts. Read them all today. Am completely convinced. But reading Blind Beth's posts on Illyrio i noticed:

The fat mans eyes glittered like the gemstones

I have no theory or anything. Just interesting that with eyes like gems being so associated with the geotd.

Thanks for putting in the time. Great posts

[LmL]

Awesome posts. Read them all today. Am completely convinced. But reading Blind Beth's posts on Illyrio i noticed:

The fat mans eyes glittered like the gemstones

I have no theory or anything. Just interesting that with eyes like gems being so associated with the geotd.

Thanks for putting in the time. Great posts

Terrific! Your welcome kit should arrive in the mail shortly. Remember, the first rule of Starry Wisdom Church: nobody talks about Starry Wisdom Church without doing so in a cryptic fashion. Cheers.

The "Illyrio's glittering eyes" line I take as confirmation to associate his rings with the GEotD in some way. I'm with Beth that he's a revivalist in some fashion... It will be interesting to see how it plays out with him. I do think he's overlooked a bit.

Very glad you enjoyed the read and thanks for saying so. Look forward to your participation in the ongoing discussion... I think I might be able to squeeze out the next Children essay tonight, stay tuned..

Dothraki, Jogos Nhai, Sarnor. Was going to include a couple more but they got cut for length as the Dothraki section really expanded. So many good text quotes about their religion, more than I realized. And of course the moonsingers got my moon-juices flowing, I couldn't resist going into some moon mythology. Woo hoo!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I take umbrage at this line of thinking :P

What a convenient way to buy ones way into the universe's good graces: just kill your wife! As long as you really love her, it's super redemptive for you.

SHE's the dead one!!

Ah but there are fates far worse than death...

Also, he killed Nissa Nissa at the beginning of the LN, just as the BSE killed the Am Empress to cause the LN and just as the sun comet killing the moon caused the LN. If he sacrificed at the end, it would be his own life, seed, or both. This is the AA = NK hypothesis, with the NK being someone who sacrificed his seed to Others to seal a peace pact of some kind. I have always considered this idea highly plausible, myself.

But...isn't is possible that the events in the sky happened AND the events on Planetos happened? That AA/BSE thought he had caused the LN with his stupid stone worshipping and that he killed AmEm/NN to try and fix the massive problem he'd created?

OR, and this one is potentially better...he was trying to fix things but accidentally ended up making them worse. Which would make the sacrifice of his beloved wife entirely in vain, which in turn makes the story even more tragic. :bawl:

[LmL]

I've been saying the whole time that the events happened in the sky and on the ground. We agree on that.

What I am saying now is about the timing - the wife-stabbing / impregnation seems to be happening at the beginning of the chain of events. The moon destruction is really the most important event - and it's the cause of the Long Night. Celestially or terrestrially... this is the thing that turns out the lights. So whatever was done later to fix things.. it wasn't the wife-stabbing. That's all I am saying.

I am going on record with saying "wife-stabbing is not a solution to anything."

Magic or no magic, I just can't get behind the idea of wife-stabbing to create a weapon for good. No way. I never, ever bought that, from the first time i heard the story. I'm quite frankly excited to discover that it was in fact a horrific act of murder, just as it appears to be.

[Nozlym]

i need my new fix LmL, please!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I am also going to go on record as saying that IRL wife stabbing is not a solution to anything. Nor any other kind of domestic violence. *cough* NFL *cough*

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

i need my new fix LmL, please!

:agree:

I was re-reading one of Dany's Qarth chapters on my commute today and thinking "man I can't wait to see LmL's take on this".

[Durran Durrandon]

Theres a jump there, assuming that we're looking at the god emperors themselves, and then another one, assuming Dany's hair and eyes imply specific descent.

A more general interpretation of the allusion would be that the characters with pale fire swords are a representation of the GEotD in general, and the hair and amethyst eyes connection is there to help us make the link between them and Dany.

If I were the BSE, looking to harness dragons by making a hybrid human population (who would have the blood of the dragon), would I pick some random slaves? Or would I breed a dragon with a member of my own family, creating a link between the dragon and MY bloodline?

Perhaps that was the true Blood Betrayal. An abomination, a betrayal of one's own blood, for dragon power.

This doesn't prevent Dany from playing the role of the Amethyst Empress or AA or any of the other archetypal roles from the original story.

“Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.” GoT 802

They are in the raiment of kings, and they have eyes matching the mythical line of emperors of the GEOTD, they are not meant to be the GEOTD in general they meant to be the emperors and they look like Valyrians.

Now could he have picked members of this family to hybridize? Sure, but that isn't the same as the Valyrians being some hybrid servants, they were part of the royal family. Importantly, it is also speculative, plausible, but speculative, whereas the idea of the Targaryans being descendants of the imperial line has some significant textual basis.

[Durran Durrandon]

I am also going to go on record as saying that IRL wife stabbing is not a solution to anything. Nor any other kind of domestic violence. *cough* NFL *cough*

Indeed.

[Durran Durrandon]

I don't think your astronomy theory is all or nothing.

I think AA=BSE works from lots of directions, even my gemstone stuff supports it. Moon explosion causing the long night makes sense. Nissa Nissa as the moon makes sense. I just don't see AE as Nissa Nissa, due to the very strong amethyst/poison connection.

Heresy! Besides that is just the Asshai black amethyst, not purple amethyst. Seriously though, I do disagree.when I came to all this I was noticing strong structural differences between AA/NN, BSE/AE, Durrandon Godsgrief and his wife whose name I can't remember, and the Grey King and his wife, and the LIghtbringer/Moon connection LML threw out did a lot to bring the similarities together. Does that mean that AA=BSE or NN = AE, no. They might be one and the same, but it could mean they fulfill the same archetypes in different ways, but there is a deep connection to one way or the other.