Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The woman with the monkey tail bugs me so much. There's gotta be more there, it feels so random.

I've discussed this elsewhere, but I think there's a couple of points in the worldbook where GRRM intentionally creates confusion / obfuscates the story, by using literal translation from a language Yandel presumably doesn't know. This was a common source of problems in translations in the real world, where the initial translator isn't familiar with colloquial expressions and translates them literally, and subsequent interpreters then pass them on as literal.

I think the BSE taking a "tiger woman" to wife is an example. Yi Ti is full of fearsome tigers, so I suppose they'd think of them in similar terms as Westerosi think of wolves or other dangerous animals. They're not exotic, they're a threat. A "she wolf" in Westerosi would have a very specific non-literal meaning; in England, Isabella of France was known as the She-Wolf of France (which is also the name of one of the books from the Accursed Kings series, which GRRM raves about as an inspiration for ASOIAF).

I think a "tiger woman" in Yi Ti means the same as a "she wolf" in Westeros; this was a dangerous (perhaps foreign) woman, but not actually a literal "tiger" woman.

So I wonder if the problem of literal translation could also be applied to the woman with a monkey tail? Are monkeys considered good luck in Yi Ti, or somehow connected with the gods? Is "having a monkey tail" an expression for being somehow marked/chosen by the gods (like when the CotF say "you have the greensignt" - if you didn't know what that was, you'd think they just saw green).

I'm increasingly of the opinion that when a human with a physical animal trait is mentioned, the most likely explanation is a skinchanger. (Unless it's specifically in a former Valyrian area known for hybrids.)

I'm actually not convinced that GEotD created hybrids in the same way the Valryian's did. Dragons might well be wyvern/something else hybrids, but I don't think they did human/animal hybrids like the brindled men. I think the woman with the monkey's tail and the tiger woman bride were both skinchangers. Valyrians might have been making clumsy attempts to do what the GEotD did in a much more sophisticated way.

I love what you said about she-wolves; I think there's definitely a lot through the novels linking animals to humans in a purely metaphorical way as well as a more mystical way. But of course in AWOIAF, she-wolf also means a woman connected to a family that carries warging ability in their blood. And that warg trait seems to affect the human personality as well, so it all kind of links up.

[LmL]

To be clear, it is definitely not proven or even claimed that the GEotD or the Bloodstone Emperor created hybrids. There are clues about it, but I am certainly not claiming that as a strongly supported hypothesis. I think the strongest clue is that the Valyrians did it (similar sorcery to GEotD), and they did it right near some greasy black stone.

We do know hybrids were created all over the place somehow. Winged men, eyeless men, fishy men, and maybe brindled men are all hybrids. The Umbers certainly have giants' blood in them, Garth is said to have fathered children on a giantess, and Osha knows of wildlings men who have sired children in giantess women. The crannogs are clearly part cotf, and all FM who can skinchange may be as well. the Lengi, with their golden eyes, most likely interbred with the "Old Ones," whoever they are.

It's all but proven fact that dragons existed prior to the Bloodstone Emperor, so I think we can rule out the idea that he created dragons through crossing wyverns and firewyrms. In fact, I don't think dragons were created this way at all. Wyverns have beaks, not jaws - they are terradactyls. Just as we have velociraptors in Sothoryos, it seems we have terradactyls. We don't even know what firewyrms look like, or if they can be tamed or skinchanged in any way. Leaf or BR tell Bran that animals which are closer to humans are easier to warg - that's why wolves are the best. A firewyrm lives underground, and is probably blind. I just don't see it... But who knows. The Others came during the LN, the dragons existed prior to the LN. Dragons may be a "natural" creature of Planetos.

[Mithras]

Dragons may be a "natural" creature of Planetos.

Maybe the natural dragons were wiped out and all we got are these hybrid, unnatural monsters. Maybe those huge bat skeletons Bran saw were actually the bones of the natural dragons.

Imagine that the LN hits the humans hard and the only surviving humans happen to be those fishlike folk with webbed fingers. If we live at such a time, should we equate them to natural humans and reject all the other types of humans that might have existed?

[LmL]

That's why I tend to use the term "aquatic humanoids" sometimes, because we don't really know what "human" means, exactly, when we have all these hybrid populations.

[Durran Durrandon]

I think it might be necessary to make a distinction between GEotD and post-BSE GEotD, when it comes to what magic was performed.

[Mithras]

I think it might be necessary to make a distinction between GEotD and post-BSE GEotD, when it comes to what magic was performed.

I think even that might be misleading. Consider the reign of the last three dynasties (Targaryen >> Baratheon >> Lannister) in Westeros. It matches the ever growing shorter and more troubled reigns of the gemstone emperors. But we know that the last Targaryen King had it coming. He deserved to be overthrown by the Usurper.

So, perhaps the gemstone emperors were not crown jewels of benevolence and ruling. Perhaps there were good ones and bad ones among them. Perhaps some gemstone emperors were overthrown by the succeeding gemstone emperors.

[LmL]

Mithras is right, even though our attention is drawn to the Blood Betrayal, there is a long, slow decline. And it wasn't just the renegade, occult emperor: the people are committing theses seven deadly sins:

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the pearl Emperor and ruled for 1000 years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries... Yet every rain was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild man and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror.

[Durran Durrandon]

Yet we are given a whole new list of sins for the BSE. The list of sins attributed to the people prior to the BSE are fairly mundane. After the BSE comes in with his new cult, things seem to get very bad much worse, with the suggestion of taboos being broken. It makes sense that the casting down of the old gods and the start of new religious cult would mark the breakdown of magical taboos as well.

[LmL]

Durran, I will say that I usually do differentiate between GEotD and BSE as far as magic goes, because it does seem like he corrupted their magics. Pale fire swords became a red (or red and black) fire sword. Long slow decline, yes, but then BSE did something dramatic, no doubt.

I wonder also about the nature of dragonbonding. The Targs do it more like a skinchanger bond - placing a young animal in close proximitety to a child and let them grow up together. But what's up with this dragon binder horn which requires blood sacrifice and can presumably bind a dragon against its will? That sounds much darker. Are these two kinds of dragon binding here? If so, it's easy to suspect that the former, more skinchanger-like consensual bonding technique which the Targaryens use is actually the original technique used by the GEotD, and the blood sacrifice horns which amount to psychic rape were created by the BSE and passed to the Valyrians. The Targs seem to have left many Valyrian technologies behind - this may have been a choice.

Andconsider that the Targs hatched only a couple of dragons in 100 years on Dragonstone, but after coming to Westeros, hatched 25 in the next 100 years. Did they rediscover some lost knowledge? Aegon DID go the Citadel before invading...

There is talk about the Targaryen dragons being bred for war, also, which implies they can be bred for other things. Did the GEotD have the "wise old dragons that lived for a thousand years?"

Maybe the gemstone emperors were literally dragons, like Smaug. heh. /crackpot

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

(1) To be clear, it is definitely not proven or even claimed that the GEotD or the Bloodstone Emperor created hybrids. There are clues about it, but I am certainly not claiming that as a strongly supported hypothesis. I think the strongest clue is that the Valyrians did it (similar sorcery to GEotD), and they did it right near some greasy black stone.

(2) We do know hybrids were created all over the place somehow. Winged men, eyeless men, fishy men, and maybe brindled men are all hybrids. The Umbers certainly have giants' blood in them, Garth is said to have fathered children on a giantess, and Osha knows of wildlings men who have sired children in giantess women. The crannogs are clearly part cotf, and all FM who can skinchange may be as well. the Lengi, with their golden eyes, most likely interbred with the "Old Ones," whoever they are.

(3) It's all but proven fact that dragons existed prior to the Bloodstone Emperor, so I think we can rule out the idea that he created dragons through crossing wyverns and firewyrms. In fact, I don't think dragons were created this way at all. Wyverns have beaks, not jaws - they are terradactyls. Just as we have velociraptors in Sothoryos, it seems we have terradactyls. We don't even know what firewyrms look like, or if they can be tamed or skinchanged in any way. Leaf or BR tell Bran that animals which are closer to humans are easier to warg - that's why wolves are the best. A firewyrm lives underground, and is probably blind. I just don't see it... But who knows. The Others came during the LN, the dragons existed prior to the LN. Dragons may be a "natural" creature of Planetos.

1 - Yeah, it's pretty up in the air. I tend to think the Valyrians tried a lot more GEotD magic than they succeeded at. Greasy black stone is certainly relevant, and powerful. I think the BSE made more sophisticated use of it than the Valyrians, though.

2 - Absolutely. But I draw a mental distinction between the winged/brindled/eyeless men, who hang out around greasy stone and appear to be products of spells and blood magic, versus the giant/human and CotF/human interbreeding, which seems to be more natural. I.e. Tormund-esque one night stands were had with giantesses or humans intermarried with CotF, and out came Umbers and Reeds, no creepy blood magic required. That's the impression I get, anyway. Both kinds definitely go back a long way, but I think the "natural" kind probably goes back a lot farther, while brindled men etc. likely were made during the time of Valyria.

3 - I agree the GEotD had dragons prior to BSE. Other than that I don't really have a firm view on how dragons came about. I tend to think either naturally or through a more sophisticated form of fire magic than Valyria ever had. But Valyria-esque hybridization is still on the table, I guess.

I think it might be necessary to make a distinction between GEotD and post-BSE GEotD, when it comes to what magic was performed.

I agree. Though I don't think it was "all good magic" and then suddenly "all dark magic."

[Mithras]

My golden rule is that magic is always dark and evil.

[Durran Durrandon]

My golden rule is that magic is always dark and evil.

Is skin-changing? Is there at least a sliding scale? I think it always has a cost.

[LmL]

I think it's an interesting debate, and one which martin wants to encourage. Is ALL magic bad? Is it a sword without a hilt, no safe way to handle it? Do we need it anyway, holt or no? Seems like it is meant to be ambiguous. I am not sure myself, although I do think the ending might involve no more magic.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I think magic is probably a lot like guns. In an ideal world no one would have them, but in a world where they can exist they will exist, and if one person has one then other people are going to need them---and need to know how to use them well, and as safely as possible. Though once guns/magic enter the picture, "safety" becomes an extremely relative term.

If magic is part and parcel of the world of Planetos--which is seems to be, since even Those Who Sing the Songs of Earth have magic--it may be impossible to get rid of. Kind of like how we on Earth can't change the laws of physics to make gunpowder not work. Humanity may just have to learn how to handle it better.

Ha, maybe the endgame is the United Nations of Planetos passing a comprehensive magic-regulation bill. :-P

*note: this is not intended to start a gun debate. Sub in "nuclear weapons" or whatever you want in the above analogy.*

[Mithras]

Is skin-changing? Is there at least a sliding scale? I think it always has a cost.

Skinchanging might not be entirely magic. But still, you lose a part of your soul. That is the cost.

[LmL]

Beth you had me laughing, nay, guffawing, with your comments there. Love it.

I can hear the chanting:

"Magic safety now! Safety for the Children!

Magic safety now! Wargs out of classrooms!

Magic safety now! No more wighted babies!"

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Beth you had me laughing, nay, guffawing, with your comments there. Love it.

I can hear the chanting:

"Magic safety now! Safety for the Children!

Magic safety now! Wargs out of classrooms!

Magic safety now! No more wighted babies!"

Lol, thanks. Love the chants. :-D

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Skinchanging might not be entirely magic. But still, you lose a part of your soul. That is the cost.

Well if you're thinking about whether it's "evil" or not, it's telegraphed that skinchangin is an abomination when done to a human. Whether or not you think it's also evil when done to an animal is another thing, depending on how differently you think of animals. In all cases, there seems to be an initial "breaking in" of the animal to accustom it to being skinchanged, suggesting struggle and it being unwanted.

It's not exactly like domesticating an animal either... You are literally possessing its body for your purposes.

[LordImp]

I think magic is probably a lot like guns. In an ideal world no one would have them, but in a world where they can exist they will exist, and if one person has one then other people are going to need them---and need to know how to use them well, and as safely as possible. Though once guns/magic enter the picture, "safety" becomes an extremely relative term.

If magic is part and parcel of the world of Planetos--which is seems to be, since even Those Who Sing the Songs of Earth have magic--it may be impossible to get rid of. Kind of like how we on Earth can't change the laws of physics to make gunpowder not work. Humanity may just have to learn how to handle it better.

Ha, maybe the endgame is the United Nations of Planetos passing a comprehensive magic-regulation bill. :-P

The Nights watch can work as United nations thing.

*note: this is not intended to start a gun debate. Sub in "nuclear weapons" or whatever you want in the above analogy.*

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

LmL - on dragonbinding:

The Valyrians themselves may be hybrids created for the purpose of controlling dragons (as the only way to "safely" harness their awesome power). Imagine the destruction BSE could unleash if he cracked that particular problem.

We know not every Targ's egg hatches and not all Targs grow up to be dragonriders. Perhaps the horn and similar objects were only ever used a "backups" in case a family needed them - it eliminates the risk to the family of having members who aren't useful as dragon riders.

I don't see the point of using it on a regular basis, given the nasty cost. "Naturally" bonded dragons can't be "un-bonded" as long as the rider lives (presumably the same as for the horn). Unless it was actually the Targs that rediscovered the long-lost tradition of binding dragons naturally, which the Vals in their might and pride had forgotten?

The Citadel link might be important indeed.