The battle of the Trident

[Lord Giggles]

I've always wanted to know more about the battle of the Trident. The reason for this is that it's such a big event in the history of Westeros ad yet we know relatively little about it. So, using what little information there is available about it, I made a theory about how the battle played out, how the armies were deployed etc. Once I'd finished, I decided to post it up here for you guys to pick holes in or just read, as you wish. Enjoy!

ARMIES

As the armies line up for battle, we are told that the Targaryens had 40,000 troops, the rebells 35,000. For the Targaryen army, we know that 10,000 of those men were Dornish and that the entire strength of the Crownlands was present. We know that the Crownlands can muster perhaps 15,000 men at best, so at least 15,000,possibly more, of Rhaegars men were Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale Targaryen loyalists. By comparison, we can't say that much about the rebell army, only that relatively few of the men in it were Stormlanders. For this reason I'm just going to say that there were 10,000 Riverlanders, 10,000 men of the Vale, 10,000 Northmen and 5000 Stormlanders.

DEPLOYMENT

Obviously, the way an army deploys is going to be important to the way the battle plays out. To understand the way I've guessed the armies at the Trident deployed, you need to understand a few things about the battle of Trident and medieval warfare in general. The battle of the Trident is a battle for the crown. The rebells are fighting to get through the Kings Landing and, by extension, the crown while the Royalist army is trying to prevent that, meaning that they're probably going to fight more defensively. Another thing is, Rhaegar, or any medieval commander, is, to your ordinary soldier, the personification of why they're on the battlefield. If they can no longer see Rhaegar or their commander then they no longer have any reason to be on the battlefield.

As far as what we know is concerned, we know that Lyn Corbray slew Prince Lewyn Martell and then led a charge that routed the Dornish. We also know that the Dornish were oppossite to the rebell left, which, seeing as house Corbray was there, I'm guessing was held by Jon Arryn and the men of the Vale. We also know that one of the Mallisters slew several of Rhaegars bannermen, which I'm taking as meaning crownlords. I'm guessing that Rhaegar probably placed his most experienced men in the centre and held his knights(of whom we know he had 4000) in reserve to counter attack once the impetus of the rebells charge had been worn out charging his infantry.

For the rebells, as I've already said, I think that the men of the Vale were on the left. I think that Robert would probably want to slay Rhaegar himself, so he would go in the centre with his Stormlords and the Northmen, as he likely trusts Ned more than Hoster Tully. This leaves just one place for Hoster to go, the right, facing off against the Crownlanders.

THE BATTLE

The battle probably began with a rebel charge across the Ruby Ford. During this time, the Royalists infantry probably formed up into a shieldwall and their archers probably fired a few volleys into the rebells. Then the rebells would have hit home, their knights and heavy cavalrymen slamming into the rebel infantry. Most likely many of the rebel horsemens horses were killed on this first charge and they were forced to fight on foot for the remainder of the battle. This heavy cavalry charge would then be followed up by the rebel infantry charging into any gaps made in the royalist line by the rebel cavalry.

After this charge the battle would have raged on and off for a few hours, with the lines breaking apart every few minutes or every hour and the rebels charging again. Eventually, the rebels would have tired and begun to charge less. Also, the royalist advantage in numbers and them probably having a better position would have begun to tell as the rebels would have forced to fight up the muddy riverbank against a force who outnumbered them. After an hour or two, Rhaegar probably would have felt the time was right for a counter attack. At this point him and his reserve of knights come charging in and begin to push the rebels back into the river. The royal troops would likely have been re energized by the sight of their Prince and may have followed the knights in charging into the Ruby Ford after the rebels. At this point, Rhaegar Targaryen and Lewyn Martell are killed. For the Royalist troops, their reason for being on the battlefield was just killed and the rebel troops who witnessed Robert killing Rhaegar probably felt the battle was theirs and were re energized as Rhaegars men had been when he counter attacked. From that point on it would just have been a question of the fleeing royalists being speared in the back or captured.

Thoughts?

[Shostak]

In my mind I had always pictured Robert breaking the Royalist Centre, and Rhaegar leading his reserve to meet him, provoking that final clash, but I don't think that there's anything textual to support it. Although isn't there a quote somewhere in Feast that implies that when Corbray fought Prince Lewyn the prince was already wounded, whereas Lyn was fresh(er) to the fight, which could indicate that the Valemen were held in reserve.

Edit. Just found and reread that passage, while Prince Lewyn was apparently already 'sorely wounded' when he and Corbray fought, this does no necessarily indicate that the Valemen were in reserve. However we are told that Lyn 'led his charge against the Dornishmen threatening Robert's left, broke their line to pieces and slew Lewyn Martell.' Whether this indicates that the Vakemen were a reserve, or just in retreat before rallying is unclear, but it does suggest that the Royalists were gaining an advantage, at least on their right.

Edit number 2. I took a look at the passage where Brienne discusses the Trident with the Elder Brother, as that was one of the more lengthy references to the battle that I can remember. It doesn't say much though, besides implying that things were pretty chaotic, and that men lost there horses. Although he does talk about being ridden down by a horsemen later in the battle, (or at least a horsemen is present, behind him, he begins to turn but is then felled by a blow that he can't see), but with no mention to having broken and ran before that, which does perhaps debunk your idea that the rebels spent much of the battle on foot.

[Lord Giggles]

True the Valemen might have been in reserve, but if they were then Robert would have been majorly outgunned on one of his flanks or in the centre. If either of his flanks broke then his centre would be open to enveloppement, if his centre broke same things happens to his flanks. I dont think Robert would have taken that risk.

As to wether or not the rebels were on horseback, I though they would be on foot for the majority lf the battle as, while a horse is good in a charge, omce you're in combat a horse becomes more of a hindrance than a help. They could have(as the Yorkists did at Towton) left their horses at the rear and then mounted up again once the royalist army had broken, which it's stated it did after Rhaegar was killed.

[TheNorthRemember]

Good post! Although I would have liked mention to Barristan I also fought and was wounded and later pardoned by Roberto.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

A bit off.

There are two major issues with you proposed battle: Each and every subcommander of Rhaegar was taken out before him, indicating an utter curbstomping. And there are no fords wide enough to accomodate 40,000 men with actual flanks out.

And the third, though it's tied to the second: The rebels didn't need to cross the Trident. They held both sides. The Battle of the Bells was fought hundreds of miles to the south, Riverrun offers another crossing point and half the rebelling Riverlords were from the southern bank anyway.

It's far more likely that both sides met up on the same side of the fords, had a bit of a scuffle where the loyalists got spanked big time, Whent, Martell and Selmy going down, and then Rhaegar tried to retreat across the fords to save what he can, but Robert catches him mid-crossing.

Anyway, Jon Arryn was the supreme commander, not Robert. And I'd be surprised if there were even 1,000 Stormlanders fighting for the rebels, even the scant few Robert managed to gather in the Stormlands were wiped out between Ashford and the Battle of the Bells.

Try 15,000 Northmen, 10,000 Valemen and 10,000 Riverlanders or thereabouts. The North was the only united region and the Riverlanders didn't have to march far.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Try 15,000 Northmen, 10,000 Valemen and 10,000 Riverlanders or thereabouts. The North was the only united region and the Riverlanders didn't have to march far.

It was also winter and the previous winter was only 6 years before. The North would not have been as strong as it was when Robb called his banners and I believe that Ned would have left more in reserve for a possible Ironborn/Wildling attack.

[Lord Giggles]

Brigh Blue Eyes: If this were an early modern battle, I'd agree with you about the Targaryens taking a hammering and then retreating. However, in the medieval period, very few men were killed during the fighting. Most were cut down as they tried to run away, meaning that for many battles it's a bit ridiculous. Abiut the riverbanks, why would Rhaegar fight with a river blocking his retreat when he could fight with the rebels needing to climb up a pribably muddy river bank to get to him, not easy to do in armour?

[Lord Giggles]

Sorry for double posting, I'm on my phone and can't find the edit button. I also wanted to say, good points about Jon Arryn and the Northmen. I hadn't taken those two factors into account.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Brigh Blue Eyes: If this were an early modern battle, I'd agree with you about the Targaryens taking a hammering and then retreating. However, in the medieval period, very few men were killed during the fighting. Most were cut down as they tried to run away, meaning that for many battles it's a bit ridiculous. Abiut the riverbanks, why would Rhaegar fight with a river blocking his retreat when he could fight with the rebels needing to climb up a pribably muddy river bank to get to him, not easy to do in armour?

Yes, and that indicates that it was a hammering - commanders are almost unkillable/unwoundable under these circumstances. But all three died/took several wounds before Robert and Rhaegar had their spat and ended the battle. One is bad luck, all three is a rather clear indication of their commands being curbstomped.

Why should the rebels attack Rhaegar across the river? No need at all. They had held both sides for at least nine months. Look at a map of the Riverlands, most of them are actually south of the Trident.

And Rhaegar is unlikely to have the river blocking his retreat either, at least initially. It's more likely that they both approached the fords on the same side, one from upriver, the other from downriver.

[Lord Giggles]

How are commanders unkilable/unwoundable? They were if anything more vulnerable due to the emphasis placed on leading from the front. In most medieval battles, a fair few of either sides command were normally killed, especially on the losing side. Admittedly, the rebel leaders being virtually unscathed save for Robert is a bit suspicious, but my point still stands that commanders were nowhere near invulnerable.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Armor and bodyguards. It requires great effort to wound an armored man, and the bodyguards will prevent anything more serious. Potshots are rarely serious.

That holds true until the bodyguard (and thus the entire unit) disintegrates in defeat. That's were your "especially on the losing side" ties in. The loyalists lost when the commanders died/were taken prisoner, and that happened before Robert and Rhaegar met.

Apart from the 1:1,000,000 chances that claim a commander's life now and then, but never amount to 100% losses of commanders in a single battle.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Robert always fought his battles on the vanguard, that's why he ended the battle in worse health than Jon, Ned or Hoster...

He was THE target of the Royal army, despite being the commander with less troops by far on the rebell side, nevertheless he survived fighting on the frontline and killed the main target of the Rebells... which adds another astounding feat to the mountain ones he already had...

[Talleyrand]

I've got to side with BBE here. Its like Hastings, the death of the boss (Rhaegar/Harold) might have put an end to it but its much more the straw that broke the camel's back than some deciding blow where the outcome of the battle was balancing on a knife blade before hand. By that point all his subcommanders (Whent, Martel & Selmy/Gyrth & Leofwine) are dead/out of commission and at least one flank has been sent into retreat.

And compare that to the lack of major casualties on the rebel side kind of suggest this was a bit more of a one sided affair. I mean they couldn't even kill Manderly while the French still managed to get York at Agincourt and that was a horribly one sided affair.

[Tyrus Martell]

It's far more likely that both sides met up on the same side of the fords, had a bit of a scuffle where the loyalists got spanked big time, Whent, Martell and Selmy going down, and then Rhaegar tried to retreat across the fords to save what he can, but Robert catches him mid-crossing.

By that point all his subcommanders (Whent, Martell & Selmy/Gyrth & Leofwine) are dead/out of commission and at least one flank has been sent into retreat.

I think you two mean Jonothor Darry.

Oswell Whent was with Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne in Dorne at the Tower of Joy.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think you two mean Jonothor Darry.

Oswell Whent was with Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne in Dorne at the Tower of Joy.

Indeed, thank you. I always mix those two up.

[Lord Giggles]

The royalists got both lf Mors Umbers sons as well as one of the Mallisters and Lyn Corbrays father. Admittedly none kf them are as majir as Rhaegar and two kingsguard, but it still indicates the Royalists didn't simply crumble as you're suggesting

[jlk7e]

I've always wanted to know more about the battle of the Trident. The reason for this is that it's such a big event in the history of Westeros ad yet we know relatively little about it. So, using what little information there is available about it, I made a theory about how the battle played out, how the armies were deployed etc. Once I'd finished, I decided to post it up here for you guys to pick holes in or just read, as you wish. Enjoy!

ARMIES

As the armies line up for battle, we are told that the Targaryens had 40,000 troops, the rebells 35,000. For the Targaryen army, we know that 10,000 of those men were Dornish and that the entire strength of the Crownlands was present. We know that the Crownlands can muster perhaps 15,000 men at best, so at least 15,000,possibly more, of Rhaegars men were Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale Targaryen loyalists. By comparison, we can't say that much about the rebell army, only that relatively few of the men in it were Stormlanders. For this reason I'm just going to say that there were 10,000 Riverlanders, 10,000 men of the Vale, 10,000 Northmen and 5000 Stormlanders.

[snip]

Thoughts?

The thing I don't get here is that Mace Tyrell has a much larger than necessary Vale army besieging Storm's End. I understand that this is purposeful, arising out of Mace's desire to stay out of the decisive battle, but why isn't Rhaegar requisitioning like half of Mace's army to join him? He should have sent Hightower to Storm's End from the Tower of Joy to get some men from Mace Tyrell to augment his army. Three vs. two Kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is silly to begin with.

I'm also puzzled at who, exactly, these Riverlands, Stormlands, Vale troops of Rhaegar's are. The Vale seems unlikely - the Arryns control the Bloody Gate, so no Vale troops could get to the Riverlands/Crownlands that way, and he also controls Gulltown by this point, so it's hard to see many going by sea. So that leaves us with just Stormlands and Riverlands troops, apparently. We've got a few Riverlands families that definitely side with the Targaryens - Darry, Mooton, Ryger, and Goodbrook. Only the Darrys and perhaps the Mootons seem particularly important, though. Remarkably, the Brackens and Blackwoods both seem to remain loyal to Hoster, the Freys stay out of it, and presumably all the other major families stick to Hoster as well.

We have very few Stormlands families - just the Conningtons are named, so far as I can tell, and they've already been disgraced at this point.

This makes it kind of hard for me to see how we get 15,000 troops from those three kingdoms in Rhaegar's army. Remember that's compared to about 25,000 in the rebel army even after both Jon Arryn and Robert have disposed of most of the dissidents in their own kingdom. It seems like the Riverlanders on Rhaegar's side have to be nearly equal to the Riverlanders on the rebel side, which seems unlikely. And, given the very low number of Vale men, then the Stormlanders would also have to be roughly equal, which likewise seems unlikely.

Don't we kind of have to posit a decent sized Reach force joining Rhaegar as well? 5-10k from the Reach makes the numbers work much more easily.

[Nihlus]

GRRM said that part of Mace's army was at the Trident. So yeah, 10,000 Reach troops seems about right.

[Lord Giggles]

The Reach, Vale&Stormlands are the remnants of Jon Conninton's army at the battle of the Bells and I wasn't sure if any Reach forces were present there, despite it making the most sense to have 10k reachmen there

[jlk7e]

GRRM said that part of Mace's army was at the Trident. So yeah, 10,000 Reach troops seems about right.

That makes sense. So I'd say 10k from the reach, 10k from Connington's army or new Riverlands troops, 10k from the crownlands,10k from Dorne. Roughly.