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ErasmusF

Soooo... the whole Sansa marriage thing

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And if you want logic...how did The Lannister kids Myrcella & Tommen grow ten years while Gilly's baby is still a baby! lol!

Talk about cold preserving.

I noticed that :D Time is relative to location in the GoTs universe :D

What season was Gilly's baby born in? 3 wasn't it? So it should be like a 2 year old now. It's not just the Lannister kids growing up - the Stark kids have also, and Sweet Robin - thay all outgrow little Sam massively. But then, Sam is like Hurley from lost, the eternal fatty, no matter how much energy he must use to keep up with everyone else in the cold, so it kind of makes sense that his adopted son is an eternal baby :D

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And if you want logic...how did The Lannister kids Myrcella & Tommen grow ten years while Gilly's baby is still a baby! lol!

Talk about cold preserving.

Hahaha and Shireen is about same age too.

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Not exactly. Stannis is not likely to look favorably on "Lady Bolton" is he? Maybe he needs her claim, but that in no way translates to either her or LF having any control whatsoever over the North.

Also, the total lack of Northern Lords shown on screen really makes me doubt if Stannis needs a Stark after all. The Bolton's were skinning Lords with impunity prior to Ramsay's wedding with Sansa, so why a more moderate Stannis would need Sansa to control the North is a mystery to me.

Because her last name is STARK.

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Because her last name is STARK.

You missed my point - Sansa's value as a bride is tied directly to her ability to pacify the North. (A quasi mystical claim that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell means practically nothing - Winterfell has lain empty for the entirity of season 4 and nothing came of it) What the show showed us was that the Bolton's had already pacified the North. In ep 3, Ramsay kills Northern lords in their own castles. No northern lords attend Sansa's wedding. There is no dangerous contingent of "true northmen" in winterfell who Roose has to keep appeased. So in the show, Sansa's value stretches no further than her ability to have babies.

For all intents and purposes the Boltons have won - if Stannis can defeat them, he has won. He doesn't need Sansa Stark in Winterfell, because the Bolton's didn't need her either.

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The show has a wierd way of doing things because of time expediency. and in regards to Gilly's baby. It was meant to be sacraficed to the Others. In the books, Val calls it a monster and wants it no where near her. Maybe that baby, on the show too, is some sort of catalyst / key for the others to cross the wall as it was somewhat promissed/bound to them by Craster etc.. That is just a thought.



In regards to Sansa, I think on the show, Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog are hiding with the Umbers and some of the known Stark loyal lords are biding their time, offscreen mind you, for when he is old enough to make a move. They probably do not know about Sansa because there is no mention of it. However, in the wedding scene, there are nameless northern lords in the background when Theon/Reek walks with Sansa to the tree.



The Boltons know that any child by Sansa and Ramsay will have the validity to hold the North but they are unsure if Locke succeeded or not in getting the boys. They have heard nothing of him on screen so that is open ended.


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You missed my point - Sansa's value as a bride is tied directly to her ability to pacify the North. (A quasi mystical claim that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell means practically nothing - Winterfell has lain empty for the entirity of season 4 and nothing came of it) What the show showed us was that the Bolton's had already pacified the North. In ep 3, Ramsay kills Northern lords in their own castles. No northern lords attend Sansa's wedding. There is no dangerous contingent of "true northmen" in winterfell who Roose has to keep appeased. So in the show, Sansa's value stretches no further than her ability to have babies.

For all intents and purposes the Boltons have won - if Stannis can defeat them, he has won. He doesn't need Sansa Stark in Winterfell, because the Bolton's didn't need her either.

That's not true. Roose explicitly states that they need Sansa to keep the Northern houses in line. The show just isn't showing them.

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That's not true. Roose explicitly states that they need Sansa to keep the Northern houses in line. The show just isn't showing them.

I agree with you on this point.

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You missed my point - Sansa's value as a bride is tied directly to her ability to pacify the North. (A quasi mystical claim that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell means practically nothing - Winterfell has lain empty for the entirity of season 4 and nothing came of it) What the show showed us was that the Bolton's had already pacified the North. In ep 3, Ramsay kills Northern lords in their own castles. No northern lords attend Sansa's wedding. There is no dangerous contingent of "true northmen" in winterfell who Roose has to keep appeased. So in the show, Sansa's value stretches no further than her ability to have babies.

For all intents and purposes the Boltons have won - if Stannis can defeat them, he has won. He doesn't need Sansa Stark in Winterfell, because the Bolton's didn't need her either.

So why the urgency to marry her at all?

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So why the urgency to marry her at all?

To get an heir sired on her ASAP, which is why there is pregnancy anxiety amongst some of us fans because we do not know if they would make "show" Sansa stupid enough to want to keep it. Actually, they would if they thought it would create more interest as a cliffhanger.

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There's no getting around it - Roose Bolton isn't stupid, so unless he's had a lobotomy, a consummated marriage between Ramsay and Sansa is legit.

The problems with the plan are manifold, with Sansa agreeing to go along with it being one and LF's lack of intelligence on Ramsay being another, and Roose's trust in LF being possibly the most egregious of all. But Cersei's involvement takes the cake.

1. It is agreed upon by Roose and LF that Cersei lacks the strength to send an army North. Therefore Roose can marry Ramsay to Sansa without reprisal. However, it also means that Cersei can't send an army North if LF takes over either, so why bother asking her? He also would have to have had a contingency plan if she had said no, which we don't see.

2. Cersei immediately believes LF when he explains Sansa's involvement with the Boltons. She does not ask for evidence and gives up the Bolton's on no more than LF's word. Why Sansa actually needed to marry Ramsay (if the point was to drive a wedge between them and Cersei) is unclear. Evidence of a betrothal would seemingly have accomplished the same.

3.As revealed in this episode, LF is helping Ollenna Tyrell take down Cersei. But if Cersei is imprisoned as a direct result of his machinations, he didn't need to treat with her at all. She couldn't send troops North in all her power - she definitely won't whilst in a jail cell.

Well, he gets some important pieces of paper that way. Which might be of use back in the vale. We do not know, if he gets some supplies or something else.

It is not that stupid to have all your positions covered.

Cersei might stay imprisoned or get freed. The Tyrell might really break with everything and rat him out or not. Most of those things are not really safe bets. What if the Tyrell Lanister alliance gets stronger (despide all the problems). If the faith is put back in his place. LF would still be kind of good in everyones book.

Until he can make his play.

His game probably does not end with beeing warden of the north. He will wait until the IT is weak enough and try to take it.

So I think the things he does make kind of sense, if you do not mind leaving people you pretend to care about to be raped multible times by one of the worst pschos of the realm... Yeah, if you are that kind of guy.

Still, which for the knights of the Vale to take WF and Sansa ordering the knights to kill LF. That would be fun.

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You missed my point - Sansa's value as a bride is tied directly to her ability to pacify the North. (A quasi mystical claim that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell means practically nothing - Winterfell has lain empty for the entirity of season 4 and nothing came of it) What the show showed us was that the Bolton's had already pacified the North. In ep 3, Ramsay kills Northern lords in their own castles. No northern lords attend Sansa's wedding. There is no dangerous contingent of "true northmen" in winterfell who Roose has to keep appeased. So in the show, Sansa's value stretches no further than her ability to have babies.

For all intents and purposes the Boltons have won - if Stannis can defeat them, he has won. He doesn't need Sansa Stark in Winterfell, because the Bolton's didn't need her either.

That's almost true. But the letter Stannis received at the Wall, and shared with Jon, read "The North knows know King but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." The writers haven't done a great job of it, but they have hinted around at the fact that there are Northern leaders who will only follow the Stark name. I hope to see more of them in the next three episodes.

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Well, he gets some important pieces of paper that way. Which might be of use back in the vale. We do not know, if he gets some supplies or something else.

It is not that stupid to have all your positions covered.

Cersei might stay imprisoned or get freed. The Tyrell might really break with everything and rat him out or not. Most of those things are not really safe bets. What if the Tyrell Lanister alliance gets stronger (despide all the problems). If the faith is put back in his place. LF would still be kind of good in everyones book.

Until he can make his play.

His game probably does not end with beeing warden of the north. He will wait until the IT is weak enough and try to take it.

So I think the things he does make kind of sense, if you do not mind leaving people you pretend to care about to be raped multible times by one of the worst pschos of the realm... Yeah, if you are that kind of guy.

Still, which for the knights of the Vale to take WF and Sansa ordering the knights to kill LF. That would be fun.

The Vale is a sticking point; I don't really understand how LF commands their loyalties if he's given up Robin Arryn, nor how he hopes to explain to them that Sansa Stark, once safely in his company, is now being raped nightly by the Boltons. It's not as if the Vale won't want to rescue her, but why on earth would LF have any say in how they go about it, or the fallout afterwards?

Also, if Sansa remaining loyal to LF is central to his plans (and I don't see how it couldn't be) then finding out the character of the man you are preparing to wed her to would be a top priority. And obviously I don't mean just asking the guy, like LF does. It's a plot hole that cannot be surmounted.

That's almost true. But the letter Stannis received at the Wall, and shared with Jon, read "The North knows know King but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." The writers haven't done a great job of it, but they have hinted around at the fact that there are Northern leaders who will only follow the Stark name. I hope to see more of them in the next three episodes.

Fair enough, but Roose says they need Sansa before the wedding, and afterwards, nothing changes. It's one thing for Roose to say that Sansa is needed, but when his position seems neither more nor less secure than it was before, how else are we to take what we are seeing as read? Why would Stannis holding Sansa gain anything from the North when the Bolton's don't right now with the same bargaining chip?

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