Heresy 169

[SueStark]

Welcome SueStark to Heresy.

Well there is a difference i would say with outright attacking than developing a war plan that has a bit more finesse or art.The COTF might argue also that they were attacked first.BR or other human Greenseers are probably the closest they've ever come to a Sun Tzu type of thinking with regards to waging war on an enemy.

Thanks a lot!

Now, since it was a really long time ago, I can't say FM were strategical masters in any way and I have no doubt westeros has advanced a lot in ~6000-8000 years but they were at least building ringforts in the time their war went on. I don't think the FM would have considered a pact if they weren't at least tied or maybe even worse off than that.

I am also intrigued by the tales we've heard of cotf actually living south of the wall, can't cite them right now but isn't Maggie the frog supposed to have had a children ancestor or something?

And as other have already pointed out, leaf was walking around, learning stuff as well.

But yes, hearing about things and practicing them are two different things, I think we can agree on that westerosi are probably better at warring.

[Black Crow]

Now, since it was a really long time ago, I can't say FM were strategical masters in any way and I have no doubt westeros has advanced a lot in ~6000-8000 years but they were at least building ringforts in the time their war went on. I don't think the FM would have considered a pact if they weren't at least tied or maybe even worse off than that.

I am also intrigued by the tales we've heard of cotf actually living south of the wall, can't cite them right now but isn't Maggie the frog supposed to have had a children ancestor or something?

And as other have already pointed out, leaf was walking around, learning stuff as well.

Welcome to Heresy.

I think that talk of "strategy" and such isn't particularly helpful. Although there's clearly a distinction between between the two peoples; the children and the First Men, neither were organised, led or fighting as one. The children were formed of tribes and the First men likewise, grouped in a hundred petty kingdoms. There were no war leaders on either side rallying whole peoples together. Rather the hundreds of years of warfare will have been sporadic affairs with peace in one area and red war in another; both children and men engaged in a war of attrition rather than sweeping military campaigns and eventually the Pact came about because the children realised they were losing and quit while they were ahead.

As to the children living south of the Wall, the point there is that they always lived in the south before and after the Pact until it was broken by the coming of the Andals and what is significant about that is that when the Pact was broken they fled beyond the Wall notwithstanding that the North was never conquered or rather taken over by the Andals - and since there's no evidence of pogroms there - beyond the Starks killing both the Warg King and his allies among the children - I'd say that's pretty clear evidence that the children considered the Pact with men broken and drew no distinction between the First Men and the Andals.

True, families such as the Starks continued to worship at the weirwoods but the children were gone, the eyes were closed and the Old Powers sleeping.

[Sly Wren]

I don't know about leverage. I still think that Bran has been enticed into the cave because the children have run out of competent greenseers but because they need a human one in order to move against the realms of Men. Groomed for the task I think that Bran will be a weapon because he thinks its necessary in order to save the children - that thought about how faced with extinction would fight might well turn into I will fight for them - reckless of what it means for men. Though of course the synopsis also suggests that if this is so he will realise in the end what's going on.

@Black Crow

I agree with this (one of the reasons I think the Children are at least on a level with the greenseers if not above them). But then--what does Bran do once he realizes/sees (got an image of his seeing Sansa praying--someone finally hears her)? If the greenseers have the power (hey, Wolfmaid!), then Bran might be able to stop the nuclear winter via whatever knowledge he has. But I think the Singers have the power (sorry, Wolfmaid)--singing the song of the earth--somehow "amplifying" (I can't think of a better verb) it into winter.

If the Singers have that power, Bran will need leverage, no matter what. Even if he wargs into Summer (I'm now in complete speculation land) and kills all of the Children, still wouldn't stop winter without the Children's cooperation. And what's he got to leverage their cooperation? His cooperation. I really don't want this to happen, so why am I making the argument?

ETA: Welcome, SueStark!!!

[Black Crow]

I fear I'm thinking in terms of his pressing the big red self-destruct button

[Sly Wren]

I fear I'm thinking in terms of his pressing the big red self-destruct button

Okay--so it can always be worse. Yay.

In other words, my "Bran uses self as leverage" is a sunny scenario. Lovely.

Still, if the Singers have the power, how would the greenseer's self-destructing undo the magic of winter? I ask this knowing full well we don't know how the Singers bring winter. But it bears asking at least--it seems the Singers do the magic--or have we seen evidence of the greenseers having magic other than sight and interpretation--manipulation through interpretation of visions and information? Can't see how Bran's self-destruction (please, no) would have enough power to stop the Singers.

[Sly Wren]

I am also intrigued by the tales we've heard of cotf actually living south of the wall, can't cite them right now but isn't Maggie the frog supposed to have had a children ancestor or something?

And as other have already pointed out, leaf was walking around, learning stuff as well.

But yes, hearing about things and practicing them are two different things, I think we can agree on that westerosi are probably better at warring.

Again--welcome!

I think you are referring to the Ghost of Hight Heart, maybe? She seems to perhaps have been a cotf. But Maggy the Frog is referenced as "Maegi"--from Essos (which city now escapes me). Blood magic and all that--and I can't think of any reference that puts the Children outside of Westeros. . .

Either way, I'm a bit on the fence about the abilities of the Children vs. the humans--the Children in the cave with Bran seem very unsettling to me. No sign that they don't understand what's going on. And they have been watching for a VERY long time--their warfare may be different. The Children may be short on numbers and fertility. But they still seem very dangerous.

ETA: So, room for lots of opinions, lots of ways Martin could play this out. But as you said earlier--the Children have been at all this for a long time--not babes in the woods.

[Sly Wren]

Thanks BC that's the one. Ha! I got it Gendel and Gorne were Jedi

Well, Jedi would mix things up even more. But back to the story--still can't see how it necessarily means the Children aren't equipped to deal with humans. Anyone can be duped. Plus, story has so few details--who knows what actually happened? I think I'm still sticking with Children run the show with help from greenseers--if I have to pick a hierarchy.

ETA: My sympathies for your frustrations with the cat.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Again--welcome!

I think you are referring to the Ghost of Hight Heart, maybe? She seems to perhaps have been a cotf. But Maggy the Frog is referenced as "Maegi"--from Essos (which city now escapes me). Blood magic and all that--and I can't think of any reference that puts the Children outside of Westeros. . .

Either way, I'm a bit on the fence about the abilities of the Children vs. the humans--the Children in the cave with Bran seem very unsettling to me. No sign that they don't understand what's going on. And they have been watching for a VERY long time--their warfare may be different. The Children may be short on numbers and fertility. But they still seem very dangerous.

ETA: So, room for lots of opinions, lots of ways Martin could play this out. But as you said earlier--the Children have been at all this for a long time--not babes in the woods.

Could she be a cotf in glamour? I would think Leaf was under glamour when she travelled the realms of Men. Learn their songs to learn their ways. Wood walkers?

Well, Jedi would mix things up even more. But back to the story--still can't see how it necessarily means the Children aren't equipped to deal with humans. Anyone can be duped. Plus, story has so few details--who knows what actually happened? I think I'm still sticking with Children run the show with help from greenseers--if I have to pick a hierarchy.

I wonder why the Children never learnt to forge or cast metals, during the peace with FM. I know they believe their gods provide all but knowledge to defend themselves is not a bad thing, even if it is only knowledge. They had enough contact to learn agriculture and metalworking. The clan of children with Bran already know about animal husbandry. And they do have the metal capacity to use them, unlike giants.

They wouldn't be so near extinction if they could simply use the knowledge. Or maybe they do know how to forge or cast... using the power of weirwood, power strong as fire. Ice.

[Sly Wren]

Could she be a cotf in glamour? I would think Leaf was under glamour when she travelled the realms of Men. Learn their songs to learn their ways. Wood walkers?

I wonder why the Children never learnt to forge or cast metals, during the peace with FM. I know they believe their gods provide all but knowledge to defend themselves is not a bad thing, even if it is only knowledge. They had enough contact to learn agriculture and metalworking. The clan of children with Bran already know about animal husbandry. And they do have the metal capacity to use them, unlike giants.

They wouldn't be so near extinction if they could simply use the knowledge. Or maybe they do know how to forge or cast... using the power of weirwood, power strong as fire. Ice.

I can't think of anything that says the Children use glamours. They do have their "armor"--blending in. Which seems to be earth magic. The previous heresy threads put glamours with worked magic--which I agree with. Glamours and worked magic in general seem to cost Mel a lot. And the children do have ice magic--so I guess they probably could use glamours--but I can't think of an incident where they do. Nor can I really see why they'd need them if they can hide with camouflage--that doesn't cost anything like Mel's glamours do. Happy to be proved wrong.

As for the Ghost--Child or no Child, she seems fairly miserable. Can't see why she'd bother much with disguise. She mostly just hides. And I'm pretty sure Maggy is from Essos--what Cersei's maid says, plus the blood magic . . .

The question on the agriculture and bronze--I'm thinking of the stories of the Children laughing at the idea of tilling the earth. Stories portray them as unwilling to cut into mother earth. Why no bronze--I'm not sure (can't think of anything specific). But I suspect your idea could be right--they just skipped metallurgy and went with magic--breaking the Arm of Dorne, etc. The Long Night. The wierwoods. These are weapons no metallurgy can compete with--given their low numbers--makes sense to give up on direct conflict and unleash the magics. Again--happy to be proven wrong on any of this.

Bottom line--metal or no metal, they seem to know how to use what they do have very effectively. . .

[Yield.]

Given all this, I'm left with a horrible thought--is the human leverage against the Children, human ability to end winter, tied to Bran? Is he the leverage?

Children need a greenseer, think they can use Bran not only as "last" but as their own savior. A manipulated savior, given Leaf's "dwindling" speech, but he's both weapon and savior (back to cold war analogy). But that would mean Bran and his greenseeing ability=bargaining chip. "Stop the winter," says Bran, "and I stay here."

I don't like this at all. Is that Bran's part? Leverage and weapon? I really, really hate this. Which means it might be right. NO!!!!

That is a possibility. I don't love the idea either, btw, but why else would they have watched the Starks for generations? Is there no other family in all of the First Men that has the ability to skinchange? I think not. And clearly they know this because Bloodraven is bastard Blackwood.

1. On the part of the singers having strategic minds i tend to believe its all because they have a human greenseer,the best in the game.I'm not disagreeing with anything concerning the singers except they are who they are now only because they have human greenseers and because of that they indirectly have insight into the world of men....Not because of themselves but because they have a human greenseer,this is what i'm getting at.Insight into the world of men in this case means they way men think,how they plan,the guile,the cunning all of which comes via "The man in the machine in this tree"

2.On Gendel and Gorne dupping a clan of Children,yeah that's in the WB,I'm not home so i don't have my book.But they were called to mediate between a clan of Children and a family of giants about a cave and Gendel and Gorne swindle both parties out of it because they needed it more.

3.I think the Greenseers/COTF are patient and for creatures whose life span number in the hundreds what is 60/80yrs to wait. I think they stirred because the signs they've read in their planetary tea leaves said it was time.But all the time they've watched who needed watching,learned what needed to be learned.Its a toss up on if they need or revere the Greenseers either or can inspire devotion sometimes even blind devotion.

ETA.Finish thought ! danm cat wanted to go outside.Can't leave her home for nothing.

1. Ok I can see that. BR has been with for years and years and he is an exception strategist so yeah he probably does take the lead on this. But Leaf is not the first to have been in the world of men and as our new comer points out they had quite a long relationship, albeit a bad one, with men for a long time. So I don't think it solely rests on the human greenseer.

2. I don't have the WB so that explains why I don't know that little tidbit. Thank you both :)

3. Like I just said, it seems a strategic watch though doesn't it. BR didn't say I watched the children of my brothers and sisters to see if they too inherited my abilities or even his bastards (if he had any.) Despite his having confessed to watching them in the past. It's a Stark they need, not a Karstark, whom you would think would also have the propensity to have the skincharger/warg ability in them seeing as they are related.

Damned cats! As my vet always says about mine, they are saying Waitress you are not giving me the service I expect in this restaurant!

I don't know about leverage. I still think that Bran has been enticed into the cave because the children have run out of competent greenseers but because they need a human one in order to move against the realms of Men. Groomed for the task I think that Bran will be a weapon because he thinks its necessary in order to save the children - that thought about how faced with extinction would fight might well turn into I will fight for them - reckless of what it means for men. Though of course the synopsis also suggests that if this is so he will realise in the end what's going on.

Are you thinking those other eyes that followed BraninHodor as being Singer greenseers? If they are then yes I would agree with you that they need Bran not only because he is human but he is the right human.

Hey. I finally caught up as well. First post!

I just had to object to cotf not being able to think strategically. From the WB:

I mean, hundreds on years of war? Gotta have some sense of strategy...

Love this thread by the way, seems like the most grounded and at the same time out of the box there is around here. :)

Welcome to Heresy! Pull up a chair and enjoy the conversation :cheers:

[wolfmaid7]

That is a possibility. I don't love the idea either, btw, but why else would they have watched the Starks for generations? Is there no other family in all of the First Men that has the ability to skinchange? I think not. And clearly they know this because Bloodraven is bastard Blackwood.

1. Ok I can see that. BR has been with for years and years and he is an exception strategist so yeah he probably does take the lead on this. But Leaf is not the first to have been in the world of men and as our new comer points out they had quite a long relationship, albeit a bad one, with men for a long time. So I don't think it solely rests on the human greenseer.

2. I don't have the WB so that explains why I don't know that little tidbit. Thank you both :)

3. Like I just said, it seems a strategic watch though doesn't it. BR didn't say I watched the children of my brothers and sisters to see if they too inherited my abilities or even his bastards (if he had any.) Despite his having confessed to watching them in the past. It's a Stark they need, not a Karstark, whom you would think would also have the propensity to have the skincharger/warg ability in them seeing as they are related.

Damned cats! As my vet always says about mine, they are saying Waitress you are not giving me the service I expect in this restaurant!

Are you thinking those other eyes that followed BraninHodor as being Singer greenseers? If they are then yes I would agree with you that they need Bran not only because he is human but he is the right human.

Welcome to Heresy! Pull up a chair and enjoy the conversation :cheers:

Man i used to love cats,still do but Pepper is upsetting my calm...lol

I think it's more than just watching its about discerning the future glimpses seeing how they fit ,make sense of them and that takes time.If it was all about just looking and not "seeing" then the trees wouldn't have to teach him anything.I'm reminded of the teachings of the Faceless man " a girl looks but she does not see."There is an art to it and once you discern what you see then you can decide what to do with it.

Had anyone discernment Jojen's vision of "the sea coming to Winterfell" might have turned out differently.Same thing forsight and then stratergic planning.

Yep bingo!

[Matthew.]

I've posted this elsewhere, and I guess I'll post it here, since I think it is fundamentally related to things that lay at the core of Heresy's discussions, but spoiler tags because it's also related to the show (s05e09):

The scene at the beginning of the episode where Jon is walking up to the Wall, where it begins at his boots and pans upward, is nearly identical to the shot last week when the Night's King is walking on the docks at Hardhome.

Possibly foreshadowing Jon's future, or the NK's past? Or both?

[wolfmaid7]

I've posted this elsewhere, and I guess I'll post it here, since I think it is fundamentally related to things that lay at the core of Heresy's discussions, but spoiler tags because it's also related to the show (s05e09):

The scene at the beginning of the episode where Jon is walking up to the Wall, where it begins at his boots and pans upward, is nearly identical to the shot last week when the Night's King is walking on the docks at Hardhome.

Possibly foreshadowing Jon's future, or the NK's past? Or both?

Yeah for a split second i was thinking it was

The NK

I don't know how it will be done on the mummer's show.But for me there's foreshadowing in the books that's where Jon is heading.It can be see as both i think because it was the NK past for sure...LC.Will his present be Jon's future?

Dun dun dun dun.

[Black Crow]

Bottom line--metal or no metal, they seem to know how to use what they do have very effectively. . .

A good [and very conscious] parallel I think are the Native Americans and in particular the Woodland ones. Essentially, like the children they were a stone-age culture when Europeans tooled up, started clearing the forests, building forts and settlements and burning the weirwoods. Over time they and in fact pretty quickly they adopted metal weapons [including firearms] traded or otherwise taken from the Europeans, but they never mined or worked metals themselves.

[Black Crow]

Either way, I'm a bit on the fence about the abilities of the Children vs. the humans--the Children in the cave with Bran seem very unsettling to me. No sign that they don't understand what's going on. And they have been watching for a VERY long time--their warfare may be different. The Children may be short on numbers and fertility. But they still seem very dangerous.

And thus far of course not a whisper about the need to unite with men and fight the good fight against the horror from the North.

[TheSmallOther]

Just for information, I will add Bloodraven. And his relationship with the Norse god Odin. Well, it is hard to think in Bloodraven as not in sorts inspired by the character Odin. After the basics (blind of one eye, crows and, of course, dabbling in magic), to list a few, basic ones: god of rulers (Bloodraven was Hand) and outcasts (ruler, LC of NW, outcasts), disdain of justice, laws, etc (Bloodraven tricked the Blackfyre pretender, killing him). The long search for knowledge, and the obvious and blatant shamanistic both have. And with his shamanism they have familiars, as skinchangers have their thrall, Odin, in special, have his ravens and his wolves.

And, of course, Odin's relationship with the dead. Odin was a necromancer, as we see in the Ynglinga Saga 7, and the reason is simply: Odin wants to raise his army of soldiers.

Of course, there are much more.

Back to the subject, I can't see the Seven as Temperance. While they aren't very... interesting when you have the animistic/shamanistic old gods, the fiery lord of light or the god of death, the Faith is the religion we know more about: their illumination is very dim, as Baelor can attest, and it is literally based only faith, it doesn't grant powers or even counsel.

Also, the Seven are very focused on the human aspect (age for young, adult and elder; occupation for ruler, warrior and crafters. And demise). Jojen claims there is power in the woods, as strong as fire. The red priests, also claim power in their fires. The Seven offer no power, their priests claim the power to be in the gods themselves yet the gods only represent the very human nature. The Seven stand in the middle of a battlefield with no way to defend themselves. Are they going to try to Conciliate the extreme sides?

While there is a (serious) point in your post, I couldn't resist to add one more Norse god (not so serious) to the discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r .

[A Loner... A Rebel]

Or how Tyr-ion's (meaning "the road to Tyr") brother will be analogous to Tyr - the one handed god of combat of the Norse pantheon who was famous for binding a young wolf who will dwell in a cave until the battle for the end of the world?

[Sly Wren]

That is a possibility. I don't love the idea either, btw, but why else would they have watched the Starks for generations? Is there no other family in all of the First Men that has the ability to skinchange? I think not. And clearly they know this because Bloodraven is bastard Blackwood.

1. Ok I can see that. BR has been with for years and years and he is an exception strategist so yeah he probably does take the lead on this. But Leaf is not the first to have been in the world of men and as our new comer points out they had quite a long relationship, albeit a bad one, with men for a long time. So I don't think it solely rests on the human greenseer.

3. Like I just said, it seems a strategic watch though doesn't it. BR didn't say I watched the children of my brothers and sisters to see if they too inherited my abilities or even his bastards (if he had any.) Despite his having confessed to watching them in the past. It's a Stark they need, not a Karstark, whom you would think would also have the propensity to have the skincharger/warg ability in them seeing as they are related.

Okay--none of that is remotely comforting. I was really hoping you all would pull apart the "Bran=a new sacrifice of some sort" line that's come up on other threads. And the "Bran as leverage" angle is not an improvement. You are much too logical for my own good.

But your point about the Starks--that seems right. And ties into the history/folklore or Starks and sacrifice. If the Children knew they needed a Stark, if that's why Bloodraven is focusing on them, strongly suggests that they knew what they were doing. Bran isn't just a greenseer. He's the greenseer. As you said. So, the greenseer for what purpose?

And thus far of course not a whisper about the need to unite with men and fight the good fight against the horror from the North.

This really does seem to be the logical conclusion at this point. The Children have scrapped the Pact. It stopped working a long time ago. Leaf is talking about the Children's extinction, not about the need to untie with humans against winter. Somehow, the Starks defeated winter. This isn't a new Pact, it's not balance considering and working with others' needs. The Reed's Oath, the metaphor of the 7, the wolf pack--those are about balance, cooperation and life. This is dominance and war. And Bran is the key weapon.

I go back and forth on just how bad the Children might be for humans. And for Bran--but the more we play with this, the worse it looks . . . .I want Bran out of that cave!

[Sly Wren]

Yeah for a split second i was thinking it was

The NK

I don't know how it will be done on the mummer's show.But for me there's foreshadowing in the books that's where Jon is heading.It can be see as both i think because it was the NK past for sure...LC.Will his present be Jon's future?

Dun dun dun dun.

Oh, yeah--fully agree. The moment you and Matthew. allude to had power.

But the books are setting up some sort of parallel for the NIght's King. The interesting part will be how Jon does it . . . Am not sure if I buy Jon taking down a current Night's King (assuming there is one and assuming that's an "office"--not fully sold on this yet). But the idea that he will break from his office, embrace things the Watch sees as taboo on many levels--that's already happening. Now, how far will Jon go?

[Sly Wren]

Lord Ravenstark, on 06 Jun 2015 - 7:33 PM, said:

Just for information, I will add Bloodraven. And his relationship with the Norse god Odin. Well, it is hard to think in Bloodraven as not in sorts inspired by the character Odin. After the basics (blind of one eye, crows and, of course, dabbling in magic), to list a few, basic ones: god of rulers (Bloodraven was Hand) and outcasts (ruler, LC of NW, outcasts), disdain of justice, laws, etc (Bloodraven tricked the Blackfyre pretender, killing him). The long search for knowledge, and the obvious and blatant shamanistic both have. And with his shamanism they have familiars, as skinchangers have their thrall, Odin, in special, have his ravens and his wolves.

And, of course, Odin's relationship with the dead. Odin was a necromancer, as we see in the Ynglinga Saga 7, and the reason is simply: Odin wants to raise his army of soldiers.

I agree on this--he is "godlike." Which only makes me trust him less. Which only makes me think that he and the Children are not remotely interested in cooperation but dominance. The big scary gods have all the focus and power--but they and their acolytes always use it for dominance. The more we play with the cooperative metaphor of the 7(not necessarily its supernatural power), the more I hope we're right about this. The big, polarizing gods have got to go or all the humans are dead.