Heresy 170

[Mojo's Cat]

You guys don't think Mel will raise Jon? I found there was a precedent that's been set already w/Dondarrion & UnCat?? What is the alternate idea, that Jon is only gravely wounded? Because it seems quite convenient to have this backstory of instances where the lord of light can empower priests to resurrect the dead, and have Mel on standby while Jon gets attacked.

Of course, Jon needs to be alive, otherwise his parentage is irrelevant. I'm not convinced Mel is going to burn Shireen. I thought Shireen was still in Dragonstone, anyway?

[Mojo's Cat]

Wait--you mean Howland as the father of Lyanna's child? I hadn't heard that one. I think I like that . . . Yes! That has possibilities.

Or am I misreading you again? (they need a sheepish emoji).

Oh no! I was thinking Howland is KotLT. That was my first impression. I've heard convincing arguments for Howland+Lyanna, but I haven't made up my mind yet officially. I recently started a reread with "fresh eyes" and have been gathering canonical evidence forensically to look into it. Midway through book 1, I went from being an RLJ fence sitter to not believing anymore.

I am leaning toward Ned + Ashara or Willa, but by no means do I claim to have solved the mystery. I just felt differently about it this time around after a break for a couple years.

[TheMiddleHero]

double post.

[TheMiddleHero]

Been doing a complete reread again, and am currently reading the chapter where Dany is heading in Vaes Dothrak, and when she speaks of Kal Drogo's bloodriders, some it strikes a ToJ tone. Feel like I am so far behind on these threads so if has been handled let me know.

Every khal had his bloodriders. At first Dany had thought of them as a kind of Dothraki
Kingsguard, sworn to protect their lord, but it went further than that. Jhiqui had taught
her that a bloodrider was more than a guard; they were the khal’s brothers, his shadows

his fiercest friends. “Blood of my blood,” Drogo called them, and so it was; they shared a
single life. The ancient traditions of the horselords demanded that when the khal died,
his bloodriders died with him, to ride at his side in the night lands. If the khal died at the
hands of some enemy, they lived only long enough to avenge him, and then followed him
joyfully into the grave.

Sound a bit like the KG at the ToJ? Maybe Dayne and company had a similar bond like this to Rhaegar?

[Sly Wren]

You guys don't think Mel will raise Jon? I found there was a precedent that's been set already w/Dondarrion & UnCat?? What is the alternate idea, that Jon is only gravely wounded? Because it seems quite convenient to have this backstory of instances where the lord of light can empower priests to resurrect the dead, and have Mel on standby while Jon gets attacked.

Of course, Jon needs to be alive, otherwise his parentage is irrelevant. I'm not convinced Mel is going to burn Shireen. I thought Shireen was still in Dragonstone, anyway?

To be perfectly honest, I'm in denial about the whole thing. I REALLY don't want him to need raising of any sort. Like you said--the precedents for a Mel-related raising are Beric and UnCat. A one-time raising like Beric might not be too bad--but I am hoping not (key word=hope--with Mel at the Wall, she seems a device waiting to be used).

If it is Mel--am less convinced that she'd do it on purpose--seems more likely that she'd do something inadvertently (like Thoros and Beric). Shireen is at the Wall--hang it all. With no one but Mel and Mother-of the Year Selyse to save her. Am very worried about that (I need to disengage from the lives of fictional children).

And a cold gods raising is right there as well as a device--that seems unlikely to be pretty either.

Had not thought of her being be connected to the attack--are you assuming she may have realized what seeing "Snow" in her visions might mean? Maybe. But last we see of her, she still seems pretty Stannis-focused . . . If she turned already--that would be interesting.

[Sly Wren]

Oh no! I was thinking Howland is KotLT. That was my first impression. I've heard convincing arguments for Howland+Lyanna, but I haven't made up my mind yet officially. I recently started a reread with "fresh eyes" and have been gathering canonical evidence forensically to look into it. Midway through book 1, I went from being an RLJ fence sitter to not believing anymore.

I am leaning toward Ned + Ashara or Willa, but by no means do I claim to have solved the mystery. I just felt differently about it this time around after a break for a couple years.

Yeah--RLJ is full of holes. I'll admit I still like it--partly because I don't think it will play out with Jon on Iron Throne.

But so many holes in RLJ narrative that there's little point holding on to it too tightly--plus Ned and Ashara helps bring in the dangling Dayne issues--the sword, Ashara's suicide. Fully agree that's possible.

[Mojo's Cat]

Sly Wren- you're right- I was confusing show world where Shireen is with Stannis, but they actually aren't together right now. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure Mel's as powerful as she claims to be. I thought the death by leeches was a coincidence until she pulled off the glamour stuff with Mance.

I guess I'm not convinced that D&D spoiled anything necessarily about Shireen, and I can't imagine Stannis advocating this to happen. Doesn't he tell his men to make sure Shireen sits the iron throne if he dies? Of course she could do this, I don't see visions in the fire myself, but I think Shireen has a different role to play with her grayscale that Dallah is afraid of.

I just assumed Mel would raise Jon, but I don't feel strongly either way, I just don't think he's (permanently) dead. Also don't think he'll spend extensive time in Ghost and come back, because he'd need his body to stay in good shape ;) I don't think he'll wake up a wight, either, because he died south of the wall. Bodies seem to only become "wightefied" if they die north of the wall.

[Sly Wren]

Been doing a complete reread again, and am currently reading the chapter where Dany is heading in Vaes Dothrak, and when she speaks of Kal Drogo's bloodriders, some it strikes a ToJ tone. Feel like I am so far behind on these threads so if has been handled let me know.

Sound a bit like the KG at the ToJ? Maybe Dayne and company had a similar bond like this to Rhaegar?

It does sound like the KG at the ToJ--but not so much about Rhaegar. They don't mention him in the conversation with Ned in Ned's dream. They speak of Aerys, of killing the Usurper. A brotherhood for Aerys. No mention of Rhaegar. Given the intensity of devotion--could mean they see Aerys as more their leader than Rhaegar, even though both are dead. Maybe.

But I agree on the idealized brotherhood of warriors. Ned talks about how the Kingsguard used to be a "shining example" or something like that. But no more. Jaime bemoans the state of the KG and who Cersei appoints. And, despite Dany's idealization of the bloodriders. they abandon Drogo and her--seems like the ideal of a brotherhood of warriors has fallen in Martin's world. Like the KG at the tower fell.

[Mojo's Cat]

Yeah--RLJ is full of holes. I'll admit I still like it--partly because I don't think it will play out with Jon on Iron Throne.

But so many holes in RLJ narrative that there's little point holding on to it too tightly--plus Ned and Ashara helps bring in the dangling Dayne issues--the sword, Ashara's suicide. Fully agree that's possible.

Kudos to having an open mind! I was under the assumption that you were a strong believer over in RLJ. RLJ would certainly be more romantic, but one of the issues I have w/Lyanna's death is the gore that we already spoke about. I think it was a violent death, not childbirth. For me, it was the Ned chapter in the brothel that convinced me otherwise, and to be honest, I kind of get the impression GRRM is dangling the idea to use as a red herring. When you read/watch mystery novels or shows, this will happen over and over, and then the author pulls the rug out from under our feet.

I would prefer it to be something unexpected, or something that in the end seems so glaringly obvious, you end up face palming yourself!

[Dire Dawg]

Yeah--RLJ is full of holes. I'll admit I still like it--partly because I don't think it will play out with Jon on Iron Throne.

But so many holes in RLJ narrative that there's little point holding on to it too tightly--plus Ned and Ashara helps bring in the dangling Dayne issues--the sword, Ashara's suicide. Fully agree that's possible.

So I have a crazy theory about the whole Dayne/Dawn issue. I don't know if it impacts R+L=J, which I am not 100% sold on at this point.

Dawn was the sword that was used to defeat the Others in the LN and was the original Ice which was wielded by a Dayne. The Daynes then took the sword as far south in Westeros as possible so the Starks can't the LN by having a NK being reborn and another LN being started or be able to stop the others.

When Ned kills Arthur he gets Dawn and is tempted to keep what he believes is his house's ancestral sword, but Lyanna (tipped off by Rheagar) knows about this and makes Ned promise to return Dawn to the Daynes. However, a Stark just possessing Dawn for the short amount of time during the trip from the ToJ to Starfell somehow awakens the Others as they take it as a sign that the NK has returned.

As far as I have been able to determine there has never been a Stark-Dayne marriage. Maybe there is some rule about the Starks not being allowed to marry Daynes. This prevents Dawn from ever being in the hands of a Stark so when the next LN comes the Daynes can once again use Dawn to defeat the Others. Maybe Ned didn't know about this pact since his hot-headed brother and father died unexpectedly and he never got told about this pact, or maybe only the Daynes knew about it. Arthur could have told him before dying. Ned breaks the bad news to Ashara who is in love with him and she commits suicide knowing that she will never have the love of her life? I know at this point Ned is already married to Cat, so maybe one of his broken promises is one to Ashara?

Who knows I really haven't worked out all the details but it's interesting to me :)

[Voice]

I'm not entirely sure I follow you here. Lyanna was sexually active with multiple partner? I guess I can see how that's possible. She is certainly never portrayed as a saint.

I'm not saying she was the village bicycle, but I am saying I can imagine Lyanna being abducted and raped about as easily as I can imagine Arya being abducted and raped. (Calm down BC, Arya's still a virgin.)

But yes, exactly, she's another she-wolf, like Arya... rather than a lady-wolf, like Sansa. I think it far more likely Lyanna was a dominant participant in whatever relationship(s) she was in, rather than a submissive little bird to be caged.

But how exactly is Jon Dornish?

He was born in Dorne, so that makes him Dornish ;)

Because he's darker than Robb?

There's that.

Or because you believe Wylla was Dornish?

And that.

Or that his mum is Ashara?

I would prefer his mum be Ashara, but I'm far from certain she is. There is also the possibility of AD+Wylla=J.

But mostly I like Dayne+Stark=Jon of Starfall, raised at Winterfell, to become a man-grown on the Wall.

Ya lost me...

You sure about that? You seemed to take my meaning pretty well for someone who's lost. :)

[Phillip Frye]

I too believe that cold hands is & will always remain an enigma. However, I think he is best though of as Tolken's Tom Bombadil...

Exactly! How have I missed this?

Old Coldhands is a merry fellow;

Tattered black his jacket is, and his eyes are mellow.

Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!

Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the weirwood!

Kill some mutineers and butcher them good!

Tell you it's pork and scarf it down you would!

Hop along, my little friends, up the big hill.

Coldlhand's going on ahead wights for to kill.

Down west sinks the Sun: soon you will be stabbing.

When the night-shadows fall, then the Damned come a-grabbing,

Out of the cave mouth light will twinkle pleasing.

Fear no ironwood! Heed no bleeding weirwood!

Fear neither root nor bough! Coldhands goes on before you.

Hey now! merry dol! The Damned will be shambling towards you!

I can just imagine Coldhands skipping through the Haunted Forest ahead of his elk.

It all makes sense now.

[Mojo's Cat]

Voice of the First Men just wrote up some theory about Dawn, it's in his signature. I think the reason for the lack of Stark-Dayne marriages is more geographical. Recall the Starks stayed close to home, and if the World Book is to be believed, they seem to be marrying a lot of relatives (irrc). It was Lord Rickard, with his "Southron ambitions" that changed that tradition.

[Mojo's Cat]

So I have a crazy theory about the whole Dayne/Dawn issue. I don't know if it impacts R+L=J, which I am not 100% sold on at this point.

*snip*

Who knows I really haven't worked out all the details but it's interesting to me :)

Ok, I got ninja'd by Voice & P.Frye when I was trying to respond, but at least you have his link handy now on the same page :)

[Voice]

You guys don't think Mel will raise Jon? I found there was a precedent that's been set already w/Dondarrion & UnCat?? What is the alternate idea, that Jon is only gravely wounded? Because it seems quite convenient to have this backstory of instances where the lord of light can empower priests to resurrect the dead, and have Mel on standby while Jon gets attacked.

Of course, Jon needs to be alive, otherwise his parentage is irrelevant. I'm not convinced Mel is going to burn Shireen. I thought Shireen was still in Dragonstone, anyway?

Shireen is dead already, but I don't think Jon is. :)

Oh no! I was thinking Howland is KotLT. That was my first impression. I've heard convincing arguments for Howland+Lyanna, but I haven't made up my mind yet officially. I recently started a reread with "fresh eyes" and have been gathering canonical evidence forensically to look into it. Midway through book 1, I went from being an RLJ fence sitter to not believing anymore.

I am leaning toward Ned + Ashara or Willa, but by no means do I claim to have solved the mystery. I just felt differently about it this time around after a break for a couple years.

Yup, Howland is a favorite of mine. But only if he skinchanged Rhaegar to seduce Lyanna into a three-way on the Isle of Faces. Otherwise, nah... LOL

Been doing a complete reread again, and am currently reading the chapter where Dany is heading in Vaes Dothrak, and when she speaks of Kal Drogo's bloodriders, some it strikes a ToJ tone. Feel like I am so far behind on these threads so if has been handled let me know.

Sound a bit like the KG at the ToJ? Maybe Dayne and company had a similar bond like this to Rhaegar?

Nice catch, but I've seen it before in RLJ...

To be perfectly honest, I'm in denial about the whole thing. I REALLY don't want him to need raising of any sort. Like you said--the precedents for a Mel-related raising are Beric and UnCat. A one-time raising like Beric might not be too bad--but I am hoping not (key word=hope--with Mel at the Wall, she seems a device waiting to be used).

If it is Mel--am less convinced that she'd do it on purpose--seems more likely that she'd do something inadvertently (like Thoros and Beric). Shireen is at the Wall--hang it all. With no one but Mel and Mother-of the Year Selyse to save her. Am very worried about that (I need to disengage from the lives of fictional children).

And a cold gods raising is right there as well as a device--that seems unlikely to be pretty either.

Had not thought of her being be connected to the attack--are you assuming she may have realized what seeing "Snow" in her visions might mean? Maybe. But last we see of her, she still seems pretty Stannis-focused . . . If she turned already--that would be interesting.

Shireen=the dead girl.

Whether or not she's burned, she's already dead. Shed no tears for her. She is an abomination. A sweet, kind abomination, but an abomination nonetheless.

Yeah--RLJ is full of holes. I'll admit I still like it--partly because I don't think it will play out with Jon on Iron Throne.

But so many holes in RLJ narrative that there's little point holding on to it too tightly--plus Ned and Ashara helps bring in the dangling Dayne issues--the sword, Ashara's suicide. Fully agree that's possible.

Ashara is the Nissa Nissa of the Palestone Sword...

So I have a crazy theory about the whole Dayne/Dawn issue. I don't know if it impacts R+L=J, which I am not 100% sold on at this point.

Dawn was the sword that was used to defeat the Others in the LN and was the original Ice which was wielded by a Dayne. The Daynes then took the sword as far south in Westeros as possible so the Starks can't the LN by having a NK being reborn and another LN being started or be able to stop the others.

When Ned kills Arthur he gets Dawn and is tempted to keep what he believes is his house's ancestral sword, but Lyanna (tipped off by Rheagar) knows about this and makes Ned promise to return Dawn to the Daynes. However, a Stark just possessing Dawn for the short amount of time during the trip from the ToJ to Starfell somehow awakens the Others as they take it as a sign that the NK has returned.

As far as I have been able to determine there has never been a Stark-Dayne marriage. Maybe there is some rule about the Starks not being allowed to marry Daynes. This prevents Dawn from ever being in the hands of a Stark so when the next LN comes the Daynes can once again use Dawn to defeat the Others. Maybe Ned didn't know about this pact since his hot-headed brother and father died unexpectedly and he never got told about this pact, or maybe only the Daynes knew about it. Arthur could have told him before dying. Ned breaks the bad news to Ashara who is in love with him and she commits suicide knowing that she will never have the love of her life? I know at this point Ned is already married to Cat, so maybe one of his broken promises is one to Ashara?

Who knows I really haven't worked out all the details but it's interesting to me :)

Well, Jon was born at Starfall. And Lyanna was at Starfall when Ned found her... but the rest is plausible. :)

[Voice]

Voice of the First Men just wrote up some theory about Dawn, it's in his signature. I think the reason for the lack of Stark-Dayne marriages is more geographical. Recall the Starks stayed close to home, and if the World Book is to be believed, they seem to be marrying a lot of relatives (irrc). It was Lord Rickard, with his "Southron ambitions" that changed that tradition.

Thanks for the bump! :cheers:

And yeah, those southron ambitions were marriages...

[Dire Dawg]

Voice of the First Men just wrote up some theory about Dawn, it's in his signature. I think the reason for the lack of Stark-Dayne marriages is more geographical. Recall the Starks stayed close to home, and if the World Book is to be believed, they seem to be marrying a lot of relatives (irrc). It was Lord Rickard, with his "Southron ambitions" that changed that tradition.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that my theory about Dawn was definitely inspired by VotFM, and his theory about Ice=Dawn, which I really like. My only excuse is that I have been drinking.

[Black Crow]

Been doing a complete reread again, and am currently reading the chapter where Dany is heading in Vaes Dothrak, and when she speaks of Kal Drogo's bloodriders, some it strikes a ToJ tone. Feel like I am so far behind on these threads so if has been handled let me know.

Sound a bit like the KG at the ToJ? Maybe Dayne and company had a similar bond like this to Rhaegar?

It has that resonance and I've done a lengthy essay on it. I'd only disagree in that they make it very clear in the speech that they are Aerys' bloodriders.

[Black Crow]

The fact that raising the dead is not in the Red Priest codex, makes me doubt she would.

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

My emphasis

[TheSmallOther]

So I have a crazy theory about the whole Dayne/Dawn issue. I don't know if it impacts R+L=J, which I am not 100% sold on at this point.

Dawn was the sword that was used to defeat the Others in the LN and was the original Ice which was wielded by a Dayne. The Daynes then took the sword as far south in Westeros as possible so the Starks can't the LN by having a NK being reborn and another LN being started or be able to stop the others.

When Ned kills Arthur he gets Dawn and is tempted to keep what he believes is his house's ancestral sword, but Lyanna (tipped off by Rheagar) knows about this and makes Ned promise to return Dawn to the Daynes. However, a Stark just possessing Dawn for the short amount of time during the trip from the ToJ to Starfell somehow awakens the Others as they take it as a sign that the NK has returned.

As far as I have been able to determine there has never been a Stark-Dayne marriage. Maybe there is some rule about the Starks not being allowed to marry Daynes. This prevents Dawn from ever being in the hands of a Stark so when the next LN comes the Daynes can once again use Dawn to defeat the Others. Maybe Ned didn't know about this pact since his hot-headed brother and father died unexpectedly and he never got told about this pact, or maybe only the Daynes knew about it. Arthur could have told him before dying. Ned breaks the bad news to Ashara who is in love with him and she commits suicide knowing that she will never have the love of her life? I know at this point Ned is already married to Cat, so maybe one of his broken promises is one to Ashara?

Who knows I really haven't worked out all the details but it's interesting to me :)

It's always interesting to read alternative theories. I have one "but" for yours. It may be Lyanna asked Ned something sword related. But, as Ned recalls:

He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

What would be the price he had to pay for sword's return? At the moment there is no internal or external threat, no need for the sword.