"... and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

[Codename: Nymeria]

What's the supposed timeline on the Dayne/Halfhand thing? Is the suggestion that Arthur went straight from the ToJ to the wall and took the black, somehow in anticipation of Jon showing up fifteen years later to join the NW, let alone that he'd be sent north on a ranging mission with Jon? That seems like a whole lot things to figure out beforehand. And what's the payoff of him being Quorin? What would it add to Arthur's character?

A mortally wounded Dayne being persuaded by Howland makes the most sense to me. He still could have killed Ned but then the little king would die in a desert tower.

What gets me about the situation is that 7 northerners were able to find a hideaway tower in a land they had never been before without any kind of guides. In basically a desert, when they're used to always winter. I find it hard to believe that any of them had armor on considering the multiple day journey on one horse apiece with no squires or servants. The KG I could see being armored cause they would have seen them riding up and helped eachother don their armor.

This doesn't seem that strange to me. ToJ was located in Prince's Pass, which the wiki indicates is "one of the principal overland routes from the Reach and the stormlands to Dorne." Makes sense to me that the Northerners would have plenty of reason to believe that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna south (mostly because they controlled pretty much all the land north of it at this point), and so they headed their horses for Dorne and came across a giant tower that was in the middle of the road. It's the safer of the two available routes (the other being the Boneway). Seems like they took a fairly logical route.

[three-eyed monkey]

The only problem I have is AD not being recognized by anyone in the Night's Watch. It isn't unreasonable but it does give me some doubts.

This is the big objection as far as I see it. Dayne was famous throughout the land. A lot of people would have seen him compete at tourneys, etc.

But we should remember that medieval celebrity is not quite the same as our modern equivalent, where images of celebrities are everywhere, and as a result everyone knows what they look like, without ever having met them. The name, Ser Arthur Dayne, would have been far more familiar than the face to most people in Westeros, especially anyone who had been on the Wall a long time.

Everyone knew Barristan Selmy, yet he escaped Kings Landing unrecognised. Everyone knew the Kingslayer, yet he crossed the Riverlands largely unrecognised. Even the Lannister guards at Kings Landing were slow to recognise him when he arrived.

But there would most likely be people on the Wall who knew Dayne better or had seen him more frequently. There would have been a lot of Targ loyalists sent to the Wall after the rebellion, perhaps. Or maybe someone like Donal Noye might have met Arthur at Storms End sometime. If that is the case, it becomes a question of whether anyone that did recognise Dayne would out him. If you're a loyalist, or a fan of the well-loved Rhaegar, then perhaps you don't. I don't know.

I agree that it could be a strike against the theory, but I'm not 100% certain it is.

Edit: Being stationed at the Shadow Tower as opposed to the more central Castle Black would help his cause. As would spending a lot of time ranging beyond the Wall.

[Astromech]

DP.

[Astromech]

This is the big objection as far as I see it. Dayne was famous throughout the land. A lot of people would have seen him compete at tourneys, etc.

But we should remember that medieval celebrity is not quite the same as our modern equivalent, where images of celebrities are everywhere, and as a result everyone knows what they look like, without ever having met them. The name, Ser Arthur Dayne, would have been far more familiar than the face to most people in Westeros, especially anyone who had been on the Wall a long time.

Everyone knew Barristan Selmy, yet he escaped Kings Landing unrecognised. Everyone knew the Kingslayer, yet he crossed the Riverlands largely unrecognised. Even the Lannister guards at Kings Landing were slow to recognise him when he arrived.

But there would most likely be people on the Wall who knew Dayne better or had seen him more frequently. There would have been a lot of Targ loyalists sent to the Wall after the rebellion, perhaps. Or maybe someone like Donal Noye might have met Arthur at Storms End sometime. If that is the case, it becomes a question of whether anyone that did recognise Dayne would out him. If you're a loyalist, or a fan of the well-loved Rhaegar, then perhaps you don't. I don't know.

I agree that it could be a strike against the theory, but I'm not 100% certain it is.

Edit: Being stationed at the Shadow Tower as opposed to the more central Castle Black would help his cause. As would spending a lot of time ranging beyond the Wall.

I agree, the name would've been more well-known than the face. It also helps he wouldn't be carrying Dawn.

I like the theory, whereas I usually roll my eyes at all the secret identity theories. This one actually sounds plausible as opposed to other ones *cough Euron = Daario cough*

Were this to be true, I find it very interesting that Qhorin and Mance Rayder were friends while members of the Night's Watch. Time to speculate about that.

[bemused]

three-eyed monkey..

Once again you make me feel like you could be my long lost secret son .. except.. I have no recollection of ever having had one. :lol:

I can't help but find this Qhorin business more and more compelling.To be honest, it's probably due in part to the fact that it dovetails so nicely with one of my own favourite speculations - that Mance is Qorgyle's bastard .. and, hey presto!.. that could also be a help to your theory.

Qorgyle would have been LC at the time Qhorin/Arthur took the black. So, the one Dornishman could easily provide cover for the other... and it makes it fitting that the comment about knees not bending easily would be spoken by one Dornishman about the other's son.

I always theorised that Mance would have been sent to the Shadow Tower to keep him at arms length and thus keep speculation down.(There may be no shame attached for a Dornishman to have a bastard, but a LC of the NW has to live by a different set of ethics)... I also contend that there are signs Mance was always being groomed for leadership. What better role model than Qhorin , if your supposition is correct ?

I like that while Mormont seems to intuit that there's something special about Jon, Qhorin seems quite sure of it from the outset.

ETA: I wouldn't want to derail this thread, so here's my side trip http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120082-mance-may-be-qorgyles-son/

(which I'll now have to update to include your possibility.)

[three-eyed monkey]

three-eyed monkey..

Once again you make me feel like you could be my long lost secret son .. except.. I have no recollection of ever having had one. :lol:

I can't help but find this Qhorin business more and more compelling.To be honest, it's probably due in part to the fact that it dovetails so nicely with one of my own favourite speculations - that Mance is Qorgyle's bastard .. and, hey presto!.. that could also be a help to your theory.

Qorgyle would have been LC at the time Qhorin/Arthur took the black. So, the one Dornishman could easily provide cover for the other... and it makes it fitting that the comment about knees not bending easily would be spoken by one Dornishman about the other's son.

I always theorised that Mance would have been sent to the Shadow Tower to keep him at arms length and thus keep speculation down.(There may be no shame attached for a Dornishman to have a bastard, but a LC of the NW has to live by a different set of ethics)... I also contend that there are signs Mance was always being groomed for leadership. What better role model than Qhorin , if your supposition is correct ?

I like that while Mormont seems to intuit that there's something special about Jon, Qhorin seems quite sure of it from the outset.

ETA: I wouldn't want to derail this thread, so here's my side trip http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120082-mance-may-be-qorgyles-son/

(which I'll now have to update to include your possibility.)

Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Bemused?

QH=AD is not my theory, to be fair. I first saw it as a one-liner on a "What's your favourite crackpot" thread a few years back, but I have expanded on it from both the ToJ and Wall end, as the account of Daynes' death having always left me suspicious, not to mention Qhorin's wafer-thin backstory. I'll have to check out your Qorgyle thread before I get back to you.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

One thing that gives me pause here is that Qhorin said something about how Rickard Stark was a good friend of the Night's Watch, implying that Qhorin was a member of the Night's Watch in Rickard's time. I can't find the quote at the moment...

[bemused]

One thing that gives me pause here is that Qhorin said something about how Rickard Stark was a good friend of the Night's Watch, implying that Qhorin was a member of the Night's Watch in Rickard's time. I can't find the quote at the moment...

This must be it..

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. “You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.”

“Did you know him, my lord?”

“I am no lordling. Only a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knew Lord Eddard, yes. And his father before him.”

Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin’s long strides. “Lord Rickard died before I was born.”

“He was a friend to the Watch.” Qhorin glanced behind. “It is said that a direwolf runs with you.”

Yes, this might present a problem, but not necessarily. Dayne could well have met Lord Rickard before taking the black, and even come to know he was a friend to the Watch afterward. I'm keeping an open mind...

Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Bemused?

QH=AD is not my theory, to be fair. I first saw it as a one-liner on a "What's your favourite crackpot" thread a few years back, but I have expanded on it from both the ToJ and Wall end, as the account of Daynes' death having always left me suspicious, not to mention Qhorin's wafer-thin backstory. I'll have to check out your Qorgyle thread before I get back to you.

Son ?? ..“I have no magic, child." ..and apparently, no memory, either. I must have been drunk at the time. :cheers:

As to the second bit in bold - me,too , but I'd never connected the two characters in my mind. With Arthur, you know all along that something more will have to be revealed, but we never really meet him. Qhorin actually speaks to us through Jon, and with Jon, we witness his wisdom and heroism first hand.

I've cursed GRRM (but gently) for giving us such a compelling character and then snatching him away before we can truly get to know him. Now, hope may be stirring.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Bless you for keeping the joke alive!

He's good at that! :)

[A Bastard Snow]

We know he doesn't have green dreams:

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. Did he have green dreams like Jojen?

No, said Meera, but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

My guess is Arthur was about to strike Ned, but Howland put himself between them and said, "Kill me and you'll leave your nephew fatherless", and then Arthur was like, "WTF?", and he let his guard down, and bam!, Willem Dustin or one of the others stab in the neck from behind or something

If I were to go crackpot, I'd say he "turned earth into water", meaning he asked the Children to brought down a mini Hammer of the Waters that was so strong it smashed Ned's peeps too and collapsed the tower. That's why Ned couldn't bring back the bones of the guys, because they ended up in some weird lake. But truly, I think he "weaved words", and the words were, "I banged your sister"

"I'm large where it counts"

[three-eyed monkey]

One thing that gives me pause here is that Qhorin said something about how Rickard Stark was a good friend of the Night's Watch, implying that Qhorin was a member of the Night's Watch in Rickard's time. I can't find the quote at the moment...

That's a good point, Mitbert. Certainly gives me pause too. I think the explanation offered by Bemused is pretty reasonable though. Dunno?

[AerionBrightflameII]

Half hand was a legend in the watch, he has been there a while.

Rickard Stark was Lord of Winterfel until he died in 282, that was only 18 years ago.

I don't think Halfhand was Dayne though. I think the only Daynes we have met or heard of had blue or violet eyes besides and he had grey.

I think it is more likely halfhand was a Northerner who has been with the watch most of his life, since the watch and the starks have a good relationship i think they simply met during a trip to Winterfel or vice versa.

[bemused]

^^

Benjen was at least well on his way to becoming legendary in the Watch, and he may have only been at the wall for 9 or 10 years when he disappeared .. not more than 13 -14 at the outside.(My vote is for the shorter period) Time is not always a factor in creating legends .

Maybe he's not Dayne.. but Qhorin doesn't seem to fit with most northern names, so I think there's something unusual about him. His habit of shaving doesn't seem very common in the north either.

ETA: Just thinking about it.. beards are pretty common everywhere but less so in warmer climates and (if you want to go that far ) a man who spent a good deal of his time wearing a full helm might well get in the habit of shaving. ( I'm playing..but still...)

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

This must be it..

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. “You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.”

“Did you know him, my lord?”

“I am no lordling. Only a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knew Lord Eddard, yes. And his father before him.”

Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin’s long strides. “Lord Rickard died before I was born.”

“He was a friend to the Watch.” Qhorin glanced behind. “It is said that a direwolf runs with you.”

Yes, this might present a problem, but not necessarily. Dayne could well have met Lord Rickard before taking the black, and even come to know he was a friend to the Watch afterward. I'm keeping an open mind...

That's the one. Yes, I don't view it as conclusive one way or another, but it's one of several things that don't quite fit.

I do agree, however, that there is something up with Qhorin. But I can't quite pin it down.

[three-eyed monkey]

Someone of Dayne's ability would carve out a name for himself in eighteen years, surely.

Daynes do descend from First Men, so eye colour is not really definitive, even by ASoIaF standards. Jon, who is also a mix of Valyrian and First Men blood, also has grey eyes. (Huh, QH=AD=J's D? Nah, just kidding.)

Qhorin sounds like an Ironborn name to me, for some reason that escapes me. Maybe Dornish? But yeah, the clean-shaven thing stood out to me. I don't know why. I took it as a sign of a disciplined mind, but if it takes one to know one then I'm probably wrong. Also, sitting with his back "straight as a spear" suggests a man of pride and confidence, not to mention the spear being reminiscent of Dorne.

[StuSeaworth]

If someone hides in the bushes, just to throw a net on someone near the end, I doubt I would be very pleased.

More likely I would be infuriated because five of my other friends died while he hid, his valor might have changed the course of battle.

One of the few things we know with certainty about the ToJ is that Howland DID change the course of the battle.

Is there anything from the book that incinuates Howland acted cowardly?

[Ygrain]

Is there anything from the book that incinuates Howland acted cowardly?

Nope, rather the contrary - Ned wouldn't have thought fondly of a coward.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Someone of Dayne's ability would carve out a name for himself in eighteen years, surely.

Daynes do descend from First Men, so eye colour is not really definitive, even by ASoIaF standards. Jon, who is also a mix of Valyrian and First Men blood, also has grey eyes. (Huh, QH=AD=J's D? Nah, just kidding.)

Qhorin sounds like an Ironborn name to me, for some reason that escapes me. Maybe Dornish? But yeah, the clean-shaven thing stood out to me. I don't know why. I took it as a sign of a disciplined mind, but if it takes one to know one then I'm probably wrong. Also, sitting with his back "straight as a spear" suggests a man of pride and confidence, not to mention the spear being reminiscent of Dorne.

Good call with the Iron Islands.

Historical members of House Hoare include Qhored Hoare and Qhorwyn Hoare. And there was a Qhorin Volmak, who was a claimant to House Hoare.

House Volmark still lives. Hoare blood flows through them through the female line. As a lover of all things Harrenhal, I'm salivating at the prospect of a Qhorin Halfhand/House Hoare (or Volmark) theory.

[melx]

Howland used some sort of Crannog magic to either distract or injure Arthur Dayne prior to Ned finishing him off?

magic called: sneaky attack from behind :stillsick:

[bemused]

Good call with the Iron Islands.

Historical members of House Hoare include Qhored Hoare and Qhorwyn Hoare. And there was a Qhorin Volmak, who was a claimant to House Hoare.

House Volmark still lives. Hoare blood flows through them through the female line. As a lover of all things Harrenhal, I'm salivating at the prospect of a Qhorin Halfhand/House Hoare (or Volmark) theory.

Hmmmm..this is pretty intriguing, too...OTOH, love the Dornish spear hint , And speaking selfishly, neither option would interfere with my Mance musings.