"... and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

[Dorian Martell]

Howland's people fought with nets, poisoned arrows and darts and spears. That probably had something to do with it.

[Lost Umber]

"... and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed..."

... getting Dayne's sword stuck in his leg. Pity Ol' Reedsy can't travel much anymore. Then Ned grew sad.

[three-eyed monkey]

I think Howland saw the child's future. Something important enough for Arthur Dayne, Ned and Howland to conspire to hide the child's identity. It is a lot of speculation but most theories are: Dawn being Lightbringer and the Daynes being the guardians of it; Howland Reed is a greenseer and knows how important the child is, possibly TPTWP/AA. Ned bringing Dawn to Ashara to further their plot. The ToJ being torn down and graves built to also further the plot.

I tend to agree, even if most readers consider this crackpot. I think it is very plausible. There is no confirmation that Dayne died that day. The language is very ambiguous, and probably so by design.

The strongest suggestion we have that Ser Arthur died comes from Ned who remembers that "they were seven against three" and two survived. Is that two of the seven, or two of the total ten? From Ned's point of view they were seven, he and his Northmen, and two survived. It's like saying "they were three hundred against one hundred thousand Persians, and one survived." One Spartan that is, not one in total.

Ned did build eight cairns, but we don't know that there is a corpse in all eight. What I find strange is that Ned never organised to have his fallen comrades bones returned to their houses in the north, but then again he couldn't if he wanted to keep the corpseless eighth cairn a secret.

Ned did return Dawn to Starfall, but if Dayne was going to fake his death, with Ned and Howland's compliance, then he would have to give up the famous sword.

So there is a lot of suggestion in the text that Ser Arthur died, but nothing concrete as such.

If he did survive, then the first question is why? The answer to that has to be Howland's Reed. Howland visited the Green Men on the Isle of Faces before going to Harrenhal. Howland is connected to the KotLT, which seems central to the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Howland sent his kids to help Bran find the TEC. Rhaegar was driven by the prophecy of TPwwP, a prophecy that came from a woods witch. Howland and Rhaegar could easily have found common ground. They may have even met at Harrenhal. For all we know Howland, or possibly the Green Men via Howland, was/were a major influence in kindling Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, as symbolised by the KotLT's weirwood device on his shield. And Arthur, as Rhaegar's closest friend, could easily have shared those prophetic beliefs. If Howland and Arthur believed that Jon was TPwwP, then they shared a mutual interest in putting the child, and the realm of men, ahead of the game of thrones in which they were embroiled.

But then the big question is who? The only theory I've seen make a mildly plausible attempt to answer that is the crackpot, AD=QH.

[Lord Lannister]

Bless you for keeping the joke alive!

What is dead may never die, but hops up slimier and wartier.

[BronnBlackwater]

I always imagined in my mind that Howland had some sort of dream/vision of the battle and told the Ned how it went down in effect saving his life. That makes sense to me in that it doesn't require Howland to be tricksy.

[Astromech]

I tend to agree, even if most readers consider this crackpot. I think it is very plausible. There is no confirmation that Dayne died that day. The language is very ambiguous, and probably so by design.

But then the big question is who? The only theory I've seen make a mildly plausible attempt to answer that is the crackpot, AD=QH.

Arthur Dayne doesn't necessarily have to be anyone else in the books . Of course, guessing is more fun. I tend to think of Arthur Dayne as the Obi Wan or Lancelot of ASOIAF, just will return when needed or Jon needs Dawn. Maybe he is in seclusion at Starfall with Ashara Dayne, who I don't believe is dead either.

[Ygrain]

What is dead may never die, but hops up slimier and wartier.

If Rhaegar married Cersei... he would have whispered "Lyanna" on their wedding night. (credits to the author whom I, sadly, do not recall)

- Sorry for the OT :-)

[Rupes]

I'm of the opinion that Arthur is alive.

Ned didn't kill him; Arthur was winning the fight and "would have killed Ned but" - Howland persuaded them to a deal

Ned lives

He swears to protect Jon

Arthur accepts this as the best (only!) way to protect Jon == fulfill his oath

No nets, no poison - something far cleverer, that fits the evidence better

I'd like to expand, but the "Atthur Dayne did not die" thread is locked...

[Lady of Butterflies]

It's acept that Howland has some magic power?

[Lady Blackmont]

His son is a greenseer...

[Ser Greenseer]

^^^That's not true^^^

[Lady Blackmont]

His son has Green Dreams.

Big fucking difference. Still magical.

[The Man from Nowhere]

Arthur was by all descriptions an honourable and loyal man and in these books people like that are not long for the world. I don't think that after watching his other brothers being killed that he would have give over to any explanations or logic. His honor would have dictated he die with them. In the casting description he is described as the absolute pinnacle of chivalry and I can't see that person hiding out secretly anywhere for 15 or so years. I think this is more of a sacrificial jump in front of a bullet moment for ned situation allowing ned to strike the killing blow.

He's a Greenseer so I think we may have some interaction between him and Bran.

Edit: it is known that after the TOJ incident Howland has never left the neck. Why that is is a very interesting question?

[Winter Blues]

All you people are wrong! Wrong, I tell ya! Set Authur is the Hooded Man at Winterfell, kicking a little ass on his way to deliver Dawn to Jon at the Wall. Duh.

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

I do believe, however, that he is dead, because I can't imagine him parting with Dawn for any reason, and I don't think Ned knew anything about any prophecy, if he did, he wouldn't believe it. To him, the promise was to protect his sister's son, not some promised prince.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

could be as simple as Howland pushing Ned out of the way of a killing blow, or tackling Dayne as he was about to strike Ned, or stabbing Dayne after Ned had fallen, could be anything.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It's acept that Howland has some magic power?

We know he doesn't have green dreams:

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. Did he have green dreams like Jojen?

No, said Meera, but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

My guess is Arthur was about to strike Ned, but Howland put himself between them and said, "Kill me and you'll leave your nephew fatherless", and then Arthur was like, "WTF?", and he let his guard down, and bam!, Willem Dustin or one of the others stab in the neck from behind or something

If I were to go crackpot, I'd say he "turned earth into water", meaning he asked the Children to brought down a mini Hammer of the Waters that was so strong it smashed Ned's peeps too and collapsed the tower. That's why Ned couldn't bring back the bones of the guys, because they ended up in some weird lake. But truly, I think he "weaved words", and the words were, "I banged your sister"

[bemused]

three-eyed monkey..

Nice post (again). Gradually,I've become quite persuaded that Dayne survived..I do like the idea of AD=QH..but agree with Inle-rah that he may not need to be a figure we can as yet identify. I'm sure if he's around he will eventually be revealed, though.

I don't know where Howland fits on the Green man, greenseer, greendreamer, skinchanger scale, or if the green men are something entirely different, rather than an elevated example of the same ability (as the rest seem to be).

ETA: I do get very weary of the arguments that abound stating .. Dayne would never break his oath, Benjen would never break his oath, Jon did break his oath, etc. etc. None of these arguments take into account things like - the wisdom of Qhorin's lesson to Jon, or that an oath is often subject to the person's understanding of it, that an oath itself can be corrupted over time, or that the figure that the oath is sworn to may abuse the honour of those who swore it.

We're given an easy example in the snare Jamie found himself caught in.. but because his family benefitted and we don't quite approve of his incest anyway (do we?) it's easy to let the fact of the lives he saved slide by.. If Arthur Dayne was/is the great man he's reputed to be, and not just a badass fightin' machine, of course his thinking would be more sophisticated than blindly following words by rote. Of course he would put what he saw as the greater good first.

ETA again: I do hope someone is looking out for young Ned.

[Poppa Chase]

A mortally wounded Dayne being persuaded by Howland makes the most sense to me. He still could have killed Ned but then the little king would die in a desert tower.

What gets me about the situation is that 7 northerners were able to find a hideaway tower in a land they had never been before without any kind of guides. In basically a desert, when they're used to always winter. I find it hard to believe that any of them had armor on considering the multiple day journey on one horse apiece with no squires or servants. The KG I could see being armored cause they would have seen them riding up and helped eachother don their armor.

[three-eyed monkey]

three-eyed monkey..

Nice post (again). Gradually,I've become quite persuaded that Dayne survived..I do like the idea of AD=QH..but agree with Inle-rah that he may not need to be a figure we can as yet identify. I'm sure if he's around he will eventually be revealed, though.

I don't know where Howland fits on the Green man, greenseer, greendreamer, skinchanger scale, or if the green men are something entirely different, rather than an elevated example of the same ability (as the rest seem to be).

ETA: I do get very weary of the arguments that abound stating .. Dayne would never break his oath, Benjen would never break his oath, Jon did break his oath, etc. etc. None of these arguments take into account things like - the wisdom of Qhorin's lesson to Jon, or that an oath is often subject to the person's understanding of it, that an oath itself can be corrupted over time, or that the figure that the oath is sworn to may abuse the honour of those who swore it.

We're given an easy example in the snare Jamie found himself caught in.. but because his family benefitted and we don't quite approve of his incest anyway (do we?) it's easy to let the fact of the lives he saved slide by.. If Arthur Dayne was/is the great man he's reputed to be, and not just a badass fightin' machine, of course his thinking would be more sophisticated than blindly following words by rote. Of course he would put what he saw as the greater good first.

ETA again: I do hope someone is looking out for young Ned.

Thanks Bemused, you know I love you.

Yeah, I really have a hunch Dayne survived, based on the ambiguous language, and probably little else to be honest. The way I see it is that Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent (not sure about Hightower) were putting the game of thrones and all it entails, including vows, aside for the more pressing and indeed honourable task of saving the realm of men. So let's say for the sake of argument that hey were there to guard TPwwP and not the heir to the IT, as everyone assumes. The Old Bear said it best when he asked Jon if he thinks it will matter who sits on the throne when the Others come. I'm only suggesting that Rhaegar and the KG were of similar mind to Mormont. It is not that big a stretch.

Now, Howland Reed is very closely connected to the Ice and Fire theme. House Reed swear their oath to the Starks by ice and fire. The Reed kids tie into Bran and Bloodraven's strand. The Green Man motif is universally symbolic of Spring, and given the name of the final book, and the fact that GRRM said the Green Men would become prominent in later books, it's not hard to see how they will tie into the overall story, whoever or whatever they are. But Spring can't come until Winter is defeated, and it is TPwwP who will defeat Winter, so the Green Men have reason to be interested in Jon. Howland spent a whole winter on the Isle of Faces, then returned to the world and sparked the KotLT incident, which seems to have been the seed of the whole R+L saga. Then he's at the ToJ two years later when that seed eventually bore fruit and TPwwP was born. There is a clear arc here.

As for Qhorin Halfhand? There are some perceived problems with the theory but at the same time it is very intriguing. I haven't debated it in a while so I'm a bit rusty, and I'm not in a position to cite the text at the moment, but a few things off the top of my head, just for kicks.

Qhorin was a legendary fighter, like Dayne.

Qhorin was interested in Jon from the moment they met on the Fist, and hand picked him for the mission to the frostfangs. He also told Jon he knew Lord Eddard, and Lord Rickard before him.

He tested Jon's character when he left him to kill Ygritte. Perhaps it was his first chance to gauge if Rhaegar was right?

We have no solid confirmation of Qhorin's background, only a legendary tale Jon heard.

Dayne says to Ned, "Our knees do not bend easily." Qhorin says to Jon of Mance, "He is not the type of man whose knees bend easily."

Qhorin is truly dedicated to the defence of the Realm, unlike many of the Night's Watch, as we might expect if he is one of the truest knights in the realm.

Qhorin retrained himself to fight left-handed, which parallels Jaime, the boy who wanted to be Arthur Dayne.

In ACoK, Jon is star gazing one evening and names four stars, or constellations, as old friends. The ice dragon, Aemon. The Stranger, Arya. The Moonmaid, Ygritte. And the Sword of the Morning, Qhorin Halfhand?

Qhorin gave his life to save Jon, maybe because of that vow he swore to Rhaegar?

And finally, to connect with your point about vows and honour, a theme that runs through the series, Qhorin tells Jon that their honour is worth less than their lives in defence of the realm.

[Astromech]

As for Qhorin Halfhand? There are some perceived problems with the theory but at the same time it is very intriguing. I haven't debated it in a while so I'm a bit rusty, and I'm not in a position to cite the text at the moment, but a few things off the top of my head, just for kicks.

Qhorin was a legendary fighter, like Dayne.

Qhorin was interested in Jon from the moment they met on the Fist, and hand picked him for the mission to the frostfangs. He also told Jon he knew Lord Eddard, and Lord Rickard before him.

He tested Jon's character when he left him to kill Ygritte. Perhaps it was his first chance to gauge if Rhaegar was right?

We have no solid confirmation of Qhorin's background, only a legendary tale Jon heard.

Dayne says to Ned, "Our knees do not bend easily." Qhorin says to Jon of Mance, "He is not the type of man whose knees bend easily."

Qhorin is truly dedicated to the defence of the Realm, unlike many of the Night's Watch, as we might expect if he is one of the truest knights in the realm.

Qhorin retrained himself to fight left-handed, which parallels Jaime, the boy who wanted to be Arthur Dayne.

In ACoK, Jon is star gazing one evening and names four stars, or constellations, as old friends. The ice dragon, Aemon. The Stranger, Arya. The Moonmaid, Ygritte. And the Sword of the Morning, Qhorin Halfhand?

Qhorin gave his life to save Jon, maybe because of that vow he swore to Rhaegar?

And finally, to connect with your point about vows and honour, a theme that runs through the series, Qhorin tells Jon that their honour is worth less than their lives in defence of the realm.

Those are very interesting clues about Qhorin Halfhand. I'm due for a re-read and will have to pay closer attention to him this time.

There is also Jaime's quote about AD "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with his right." Perhaps AD was ambidextrous. If QH is AD, then losing 3 of his fingers on his right hand wouldn't be such a loss. He could've simply pretended to be right-handed while with the Kingsguard.

The only problem I have is AD not being recognized by anyone in the Night's Watch. It isn't unreasonable but it does give me some doubts.