Who else broke the guest right?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

That's the one I meant. And:

According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal king, identified either as King Tywell II of the Rock or King Oswell I of the Vale,^[1]

^{with [1] being TWOIAF.}

TWOIAF doesn't back this claim.

Like i said, i don`t have twoiaf yet but take that site as reliable

[Frey Pie]

Did Walder frey break guest rights to the 3500 men that were slaughtered under his tents?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Did Walder frey break guest rights to the 3500 men that were slaughtered under his tents?

That`s a tricky one.

Is it pointed out whether he ever stands in that chapter?

Why? you ask. If i recall he mentions something between his legs that is working. My theory is that he has a sword laid out on his lap, between both legs. Unseen but negating guest right. Akin to when you make a promise but have your fingers crossed behind your back

[bemused]

Nightfort. Sorry, slip of the keyboard. The Rat Cook was just a cook. As such i would expect him to be pretty low on the ladder. I do respect bemused`s opinion that the LC can`t be as culpable unless he gave the order

If they paid they ain`t a guest. Everywhere i`ve paid to stay i`ve considered myself a guest. Westerosi inns are the equivalent of modern day hotels or guest houses. Hotels, hostels and such derive their name from the word hospital, as in hospitality. Guest right is based on hospitium, a word which lends itself to hospitality and by association hotel, hostel and all the way back to the crossroads inn. You may find my opinion nonsensical but i have a right to it

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner, I had some things to take care of..

Of course you have a right to your opinion ( I never suggested you didn't).. but the logic of your argument doesn't follow for me. I didn't mean to insult you, just to say that I fail to see the sense in your position.

First of all, GRRM is translating for us from the common tongue of Westeros. So though he uses a word the origins of which we can trace, we can't always deduce a whole hell of a lot from it (though sometimes we can). In this case, if we take into account what he's written about guest right in various places, including TWoIaF , we ought to have a fairly clear idea of what it means, and it obviously doesn't mean the same thing in an inn as in a lord's holding or even in a person's private quarters. (See Bowen Marsh refusing to accept food or drink in Jon's quarters.)

You may consider yourself a guest whether you pay or not, in our world.. in our modern times.. but it doesn't equate with GRRM's fictional world in medieval times, or even our own world in medieval times.. Do you feel yourself protected by God's law when you stay in a hotel ?

Since you mention the Crossroads Inn , how is it that Masha Heddle did not raise the spectre of guest right when Cat seized Tyrion? Cat and Ser Rodrick arrived first and engaged Masha's last two rooms. They were then her "guests" (in innspeak). When Tyrion arrived, she said she had no room for him, but when be bought another guest's room from him, she didn't object. Further, when Tyrion asked..

“You will be able to manage food, I trust?”

“Anything you like, m’lord, anything at all,” the innkeep promised. (Cat's POV)

.. so from that point on, Tyrion was also a "guest".

From Tyrion's POV when Cat seizes him..

One moment he’d been ordering supper, and an eye blink later he was facing a room of armed men, with Jyck reaching for a sword and the fat innkeep shrieking, “No swords, not here, please, m’lords.”

We might think that Masha's concern here is over guest right, but shortly afterward, we're dissuaded from that notion...

“Kill him,” hissed some drunken slattern from the back, and other voices took up the call, faster than he would have believed. Strangers all, friendly enough only a moment ago, and yet now they cried for his blood like hounds on a trail.

...and Masha ?

Scarlet-tinged spittle flew from the fat innkeep’s mouth as she begged of Catelyn Stark, “Don’t kill him here!”

“Don’t kill him anywhere,” Tyrion urged.

“Take him somewheres else, no blood here, m’lady, I wants no high lordlin’s quarrels.”

Her concern is revealed to be mainly for her premises and avoiding political involvement.. And what of the other guests whose friendliness turns to bloodthirstiness ? None of them show any apprehension of breaking guest right, either...not even Cat herself, who, in ASoS, later shows an acute awareness of it and the expectation that it will be respected.

Guest right may not be held in the same sacredness in the south as in the north, but people still recognize it. The only logical conclusion, IMO, is that it doesn't apply because they're at an inn.

[Rickon will return]

I'm not sure of it counts, but the mutiny at Crasters keep began after Craster attacked a brother of the nights watch, meaning he also broke the guest right...

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner, I had some things to take care of..

Of course you have a right to your opinion ( I never suggested you didn't).. but the logic of your argument doesn't follow for me. I didn't mean to insult you, just to say that I fail to see the sense in your position.

First of all, GRRM is translating for us from the common tongue of Westeros. So though he uses a word the origins of which we can trace, we can't always deduce a whole hell of a lot from it (though sometimes we can). In this case, if we take into account what he's written about guest right in various places, including TWoIaF , we ought to have a fairly clear idea of what it means, and it obviously doesn't mean the same thing in an inn as in a lord's holding or even in a person's private quarters. (See Bowen Marsh refusing to accept food or drink in Jon's quarters.)

You may consider yourself a guest whether you pay or not, in our world.. in our modern times.. but it doesn't equate with GRRM's fictional world in medieval times, or even our own world in medieval times.. Do you feel yourself protected by God's law when you stay in a hotel ?

Since you mention the Crossroads Inn , how is it that Masha Heddle did not raise the spectre of guest right when Cat seized Tyrion? Cat and Ser Rodrick arrived first and engaged Masha's last two rooms. They were then her "guests" (in innspeak). When Tyrion arrived, she said she had no room for him, but when be bought another guest's room from him, she didn't object. Further, when Tyrion asked..

“You will be able to manage food, I trust?”

“Anything you like, m’lord, anything at all,” the innkeep promised. (Cat's POV)

.. so from that point on, Tyrion was also a "guest".

From Tyrion's POV when Cat seizes him..

One moment he’d been ordering supper, and an eye blink later he was facing a room of armed men, with Jyck reaching for a sword and the fat innkeep shrieking, “No swords, not here, please, m’lords.”

We might think that Masha's concern here is over guest right, but shortly afterward, we're dissuaded from that notion...

“Kill him,” hissed some drunken slattern from the back, and other voices took up the call, faster than he would have believed. Strangers all, friendly enough only a moment ago, and yet now they cried for his blood like hounds on a trail.

...and Masha ?

Scarlet-tinged spittle flew from the fat innkeep’s mouth as she begged of Catelyn Stark, “Don’t kill him here!”

“Don’t kill him anywhere,” Tyrion urged.

“Take him somewheres else, no blood here, m’lady, I wants no high lordlin’s quarrels.”

Her concern is revealed to be mainly for her premises and avoiding political involvement.. And what of the other guests whose friendliness turns to bloodthirstiness ? None of them show any apprehension of breaking guest right, either...not even Cat herself, who, in ASoS, later shows an acute awareness of it and the expectation that it will be respected.

Guest right may not be held in the same sacredness in the south as in the north, but people still recognize it. The only logical conclusion, IMO, is that it doesn't apply because they're at an inn.

Good points raised and there`s no quotes to back up my opinion. Also no definitive quotes to condemn it. And lets face it. If the gods punished innkeeps for every brawl or wrongdoing by their customers{guests} there would be no innkeeps. One final thought though. Since that incident Masha and her nephew have both died. Coincidence?

[bemused]

Did Walder frey break guest rights to the 3500 men that were slaughtered under his tents?

I'd say yes. He set up the tents and sent them food and drink.

[bemused]

Good points raised and there`s no quotes to back up my opinion. Also no definitive quotes to condemn it. And lets face it. If the gods punished innkeeps for every brawl or wrongdoing by their customers{guests} there would be no innkeeps. One final thought though. Since that incident Masha and her nephew have both died. Coincidence?

Not coincidence..and not the gods (unless you consider Tywin a god). ;) (some do)

Returning from the Eyrie, Tyrion finds Tywin's army at the crossroads.. the inn is still standing,but the village has been burned..

A gibbet had been erected in the yard, and the body that swung there was covered with ravens. At Tyrion’s approach they took to the air, squawking and flapping their black wings. He dismounted and glanced up at what remained of the corpse. The birds had eaten her lips and eyes and most of her cheeks, baring her stained red teeth in a hideous smile. “A room, a meal, and a flagon of wine, that was all I asked,” he reminded her with a sigh of reproach.

It's true, I wouldn't rule out a Bloodraven watcher or two among those ravens, but they could hardly accomplish all that by themselves. It's Tywin's payment for Masha and the villagers not trying to stop Cat from abducting a member of his family - even though Tyrion is his least regarded offspring.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Not coincidence..and not the gods (unless you consider Tywin a god). ;) (some do)

Returning from the Eyrie, Tyrion finds Tywin's army at the crossroads.. the inn is still standing,but the village has been burned..

A gibbet had been erected in the yard, and the body that swung there was covered with ravens. At Tyrion’s approach they took to the air, squawking and flapping their black wings. He dismounted and glanced up at what remained of the corpse. The birds had eaten her lips and eyes and most of her cheeks, baring her stained red teeth in a hideous smile. “A room, a meal, and a flagon of wine, that was all I asked,” he reminded her with a sigh of reproach.

It's true, I wouldn't rule out a Bloodraven watcher or two among those ravens, but they could hardly accomplish all that by themselves. It's Tywin's payment for Masha and the villagers not trying to stop Cat from abducting a member of his family - even if Tyrion is his least regarded offspring.

Uncat and Wylam aren`t gods, but taking care of 5 Freys for their vengeance will have the smallfolk telling tales of the gods wrath

[bemused]

Uncat and Wylam aren`t gods, but taking care of 5 Freys for their vengeance will have the smallfolk telling tales of the gods wrath

Very true, but I think the smallfolk might have a bit more sympathy for Masha, since they often pay the price for "lordlin's quarrels" , themselves... just as she did.

Jak Scaletongue... I notice you saw my :ninja: and raised me one on the last page..;)

[TimJames]

Bloodraven - Invited a blackfyre to Kings Landing to peacefully participate in a Great Council (where the nobility of Westeros elect a King), and had him executed as soon as he arrived. Despite the fact that he promised him safety.

Craster - Invited a Night's Watch expedition into his home and let some of their wounded starve of neglect. When one of them complained, faster tried to murder him with an axe. Another one slit the old pervert's throat open with a dagger.

Daenarys - She was a guest in Astapor, and slept within the city limit. Yet despite this, she ordered her newly aquired Unsullied to murder every non-slave adult over the age of thirteen. Then, despite agreeing to a three day ceasefire with Yunkai, she attacked them anyway. So Daenarys is without a doubt an oathbreaker.

Eurion - Declared himself king and murdered Tristifer Botley's dad for saying that Asha should inherit before him. Then after the Kingsmoot, Eurion murdered one IronBorn Nobleman who didn't think Eurion would make a good king (remember, Kingsmoots and Great Councils are supposed to be peaceful affairs).

[Fire Eater]

Don't forget Olenna, she was a guest in Joffrey's castle when she killed her host.

Osha broke it when she killed theons guards. She assuredly ate his bread and salt. And he payed the iron price for that bread and salt so it's his by right.

Theon and his men didn't own Winterfell, and it wasn't their bread and salt or hospitality to begin with. Osha had been occupying it before they took it as well so there is no broken guest right.

[Ruby Fforde]

Daenarys - She was a guest in Astapor, and slept within the city limit. Yet despite this, she ordered her newly aquired Unsullied to murder every non-slave adult over the age of thirteen. Then, despite agreeing to a three day ceasefire with Yunkai, she attacked them anyway. So Daenarys is without a doubt an oathbreaker.

Does it apply to whole cities, or just people's homes?

[Frey Pie]

I'd say yes. He set up the tents and sent them food and drink.

This is my assumption also.

Otherwise there is a huge loop hole. I've heard it said that only within the confines of your direct castle does the guest right hold. This would mean that any temporary shelter which your welcomed into would be fair game for murder which seems wrong to me

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I`m surprised that, for all his crimes Ramsay Bolton hasn`t broken guest right yet

Quick question. Does a parley hold some religious curse if you kill during one? Or is it just observed peacefully because it`s in the best iterests of both parties to thrash out terms.

[averde]

My interpretation is that the guest right constrains the HOST from harming the guest, not really the other way around.

ASOS Jon I

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. (Mance to Jon)

I've never seen it used the other way around, but maybe you guys can find an instance that its mentioned that way.

I would assume it's implied the guest can't do anything either, but the host is the one accepting the guest into his home, offering protection from the outdoors, so it's a bigger deal on that end.

[averde]

I`m surprised that, for all his crimes Ramsay Bolton hasn`t broken guest right yet

Quick question. Does a parley hold some religious curse if you kill during one? Or is it just observed peacefully because it`s in the best iterests of both parties to thrash out terms.

Tried to do a little Google research on your parley question, couldn't really find an answer.

Since it was used between a variety of groups I would guess the punishment for breaking parley would just be a negative mark on your chivalry, considered a nefarious sinner in whatever religion you happen to follow. That sort of thing.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Like i said, i don`t have twoiaf yet but take that site as reliable

Don't. The wiki is written by fans, with no more knowledge than any of us, and not up to scientific standards. Too many write their pet theories as truth. There are errors all over.

Did Walder frey break guest rights to the 3500 men that were slaughtered under his tents?

Yes, they were part of Robb's party, whom he greeted as a guest.

[Frey Pie]

Don't. The wiki is written by fans, with no more knowledge than any of us, and not up to scientific standards. Too many write their pet theories as truth. There are errors all over.

Yes, they were part of Robb's party, whom he greeted as a guest.

Just as I thought. To be honest I took it for granted that Walder had broken guest right to all the men that were with robb but another poster questioned it with some technical arguments

As for the parley tent I would say it's extremely badly frowned upon but I don't know of any religious reasons for it

[ebourget]

I'm starting to think this was the entire point of the Dornish subplot. To show them breaking guest right in failing to protect Myrcella. Whoever's fault it is makes no matter, but that she was a guest in their domain, under their protection. Not like anything else but a touch of Dany intrigue happened...

Starting think the real question is who HASNT broken guest right? Answer: Starks. Maybe BwB.