Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Black Hole Moon

[vuk]

If Dawn is LB, which seems likely, than there's no other sword, as it is not mentioned either. And considering the black stone of the fallen moon, worshiped by BSE, IMO it is resource of the metal later known as the valirian steel. The colour of the VS blades confirms it. So we have something that BSE prayed in every important house of Westeros.

[vuk]

Maybe other larger part of the comet fell in the Lands of Always Winter which would explain swords wielded by Others. Coinsidence with the Dawn was original sword of house Stark?

Anyway, Lightbringer becomes the Lightbringer only AFTER the forging in NN's heart, comet hitting the moon. So all the fallen stone (of the comet and of moon) hitting the Planetos after that symbolic forging in the sky. Fallen part of the comet is the resource for Dawn, the sword LB that ends the Long Night.

[vuk]

Maybe this is the chronology:

1. In the far far past existed GEoTD with the complete story from AWoIaF.

2. When many years after BSE usurped the throne and killed his sister AmEm which caused the Long Night, that resulted with the wrath of Lion of Night (Sun) who simbolicly destroyed the fire moon (his wife). So the Long Night started before the impact? Probably yes, because there's no need for a LB without the LN, so LN happend before the forging, the comet hitting the moon. Maybe this could be understood as a symbol of God's help to humanity which regards in sending the weapon that can defeat the upcoming darkness on Planetos. We also have here a high price that must be paid for a salvation of Life and that is death of the Fire Moon, wife of the Sun. If we talk about Gods that know what must be done for a salvation and a price of that deed, that certainly explains the Wrath of Lion of Night, at least that is how the impact has been understood by men in a regards of a religion - as a Wrath (hint the Tolkien's War of Wrath in Silmarillion, one of the most epic events, which caused falling apart of land mass, drawning of Beleriand, creating of new continents and seas). And ofc there's a willing sacrifice of the moon goddess for a salvation of Life.

3. The part of the comet which will become Dawn falls on Planetos and some time later the sword is forged by AA in NN's heart than used to end the Long Night. So we have a consistency in Lightbringer's purpose - to bring light, to bring morning after the night.

4. At the same time black stone worshiped by BSE as a part of the destroyed moon falls on Planetos. If it is a resource of the later valirian steel, than forging of a VS blades and later house prestige by having one of them simbolize creating and spreading of corruption. So it is likely from this point BSE is not AA, because it is not mentioned anywhere he forged any sword or killed his tiger wife or anything similiar. He did kill AmEm, his sister, which happened before the forging, even before the impact - that caused these events in matter a fact.

[vuk]

It would be interesting if Jamie really kills Cersei (the queen, his sister), the same as BSE did. That could mean the beggining of the second LN. :-) He is BSE reborn than. He dont have to be aware of that, as the BSE wasn't aware I believe, he thought he's doing a right thing. I am not saying Cersei is rightfull, just talking in matter of symbols.

[Julia H.]

BSE should have some very very tragic background, even the best intentions in start, which are replaced by those tragic and traumatic experiences he passed through.

I suggested earlier somewhere that a plausible story for the BSE is that he may have tried to bring back the golden age of the empire. The legend says, every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

The BSE was apparently interested in arcane matters, so perhaps he wanted to perform some really powerful magic, which would put an end to all those bad things. (This could explain to some extent how he became remembered as a hero.) I have the impression that human sacrifice versus self-sacrifice is a strong theme in ASOIAF. One end of the spectrum is Melisandre, who is actively seeking someone who could be burned for the greater good, the other end is maybe the Night's Watch, which was originally meant to be a sacrifice undertaken voluntarily - except that these days it is usually not (and look at the results). Sacrificing others (rather than oneself) cannot yield truly positive results, and perhaps that was what the BSE got wrong. He may have thought sacrificing the Amethyst Empress would bring back the golden age, but instead it was a Long Night that started - the sacrifice was in fact a betrayal. Then the BSE may still have wanted to put things right, getting more and more involved with "the sword without a hilt" and committing darker and darker crimes until the original purpose was totally lost perhaps, and in the end he may have been simply clinging on to power at all costs, building a cult around his own idealized personality. Thus, sacrificing Nissa Nissa is now remembered as a virtuous act (also justified by Nissa Nissa's dutiful consent) and the result is that human sacrifice in general (and obviously without the consent of the sacrificed person) is still condoned among those who celebrate Azor Ahai as their hero. All this would imply that self-sacrifice may be the true key to winning the war for Dawn between humanity and, well, .. the Others.

[oursisthefury69]

^Jaime really will kill Cersie, one of the greater certainties at this point imo.

And in terms of forging lightbringer, in a literal sense, Jaime's story is the only one I can see recreating the forging story. I like all the additional symbology, background importance, ect. of these Astronomy threads; But when were talking about Lightbrnger, I think you have to put most of the stock in the story told in book 2 by Sallador Saan to Davos, and these threads get away from that to an extent. I think that whole story (30 days temper in water, 50 and lions heart, 100 and nissa nissas heart) is one of the more shrouded mysteries in terms of replaying itself; But when you begin to look at it the only thing thats obvious is the Lion aspect, and the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai angle is only comparable to Jaime and Cersie's relationship as much as people would like to make more abstract cases for things like Jon and Ghost, ect.

So the way I look at it now, is water = Ice being broken down (water/ice) into Widows wail and Oathkeeper. The heart of a lion may be Jaime dying before resurrection from Stoneheart, or even simultaneously fulfilled when killing Cersie. But Jaime will kill Cersie by the end for so many reasons

[Ser Walton]

Thanks for the nod Evita! All I did was share LMLs theory with you.

LuciferMeansLightbringer: absolutely brilliant. I had some ideas that were similar to yours and have always shared your view that Martin is writing modern mytholog. The way you have collected and supported your ideas though is worth applauding

Call me Nissa Nissa and stick a sword through me, for I am star struck.

I can't wait to reread now, with the Astronomy theory in mind.

[LmL]

I suggested earlier somewhere that a plausible story for the BSE is that he may have tried to bring back the golden age of the empire. The legend says, every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

The BSE was apparently interested in arcane matters, so perhaps he wanted to perform some really powerful magic, which would put an end to all those bad things. (This could explain to some extent how he became remembered as a hero.) I have the impression that human sacrifice versus self-sacrifice is a strong theme in ASOIAF. One end of the spectrum is Melisandre, who is actively seeking someone who could be burned for the greater good, the other end is maybe the Night's Watch, which was originally meant to be a sacrifice undertaken voluntarily - except that these days it is usually not (and look at the results). Sacrificing others (rather than oneself) cannot yield truly positive results, and perhaps that was what the BSE got wrong. He may have thought sacrificing the Amethyst Empress would bring back the golden age, but instead it was a Long Night that started - the sacrifice was in fact a betrayal. Then the BSE may still have wanted to put things right, getting more and more involved with "the sword without a hilt" and committing darker and darker crimes until the original purpose was totally lost perhaps, and in the end he may have been simply clinging on to power at all costs, building a cult around his own idealized personality. Thus, sacrificing Nissa Nissa is now remembered as a virtuous act (also justified by Nissa Nissa's dutiful consent) and the result is that human sacrifice in general (and obviously without the consent of the sacrificed person) is still condoned among those who celebrate Azor Ahai as their hero. All this would imply that self-sacrifice may be the true key to winning the war for Dawn between humanity and, well, .. the Others.

Wow, really great comments here Julia H. I was trying to address this early on in the essay... But yes, I don't think that sacrificing someone else is a noble act - sacrificing yourself is a noble act. That's exactly how i see it.

Your ideas about the BSE here are terrific - we are speculating here, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense, fits with what we know of the GEotD, and fits with the larger themes at play in the book. I am going to keep these ideas in mind and chew on them.

I think Vuk was barking up the same tree here.

[LmL]

Thanks for the nod Evita! All I did was share LMLs theory with you.

LuciferMeansLightbringer: absolutely brilliant. I had some ideas that were similar to yours and have always shared your view that Martin is writing modern mytholog. The way you have collected and supported your ideas though is worth applauding

Call me Nissa Nissa and stick a sword through me, for I am star struck.

I can't wait to reread now, with the Astronomy theory in mind.

The re-reads are the true test. The basic premise of my astronomy theory strikes many as far-fetched at first, because of it's sheer scope. It struck me that way too at first - I did a lot of "no way, can't be...' and "is he really... oh man he really is." But I think if one considers the evidence, and then starts doing a re-read, you really can't avoid seeing big giant astronomy metaphors all over the damn place. I sometimes go back over a very familiar chapter, onlyto have something new pop out at me. I've the Cresen prologue to ACOK so many times, but it just occurred to me the other day that all that shit Patchface is saying in that chapter is about the moon's death under the water. The birds with scales, the smoke rising in bubbles, the ash falling up, it's all moon drowning stuff. Anyway.

Thanks for approving of my extensive text corroboration- that's why my theories tend to run so long, because I am trying to correlate as strongly to the text as i can. All I am really ever doing is trying to interpret the metaphorical content of the text, and the only way to do that is to compare different sections of text to each other to see how George is using a particular motif. If we want to understand what he is saying with burning trees, we have to look at all the instances of burning trees as if they were myths from different cultures - we are performing comparative mythology on the different chapters now. When we do this, we see that many symbols reoccur around burning trees - the flames are always like robes, for example, inviting a comparison to the red priests who are actually robed in fire. When we compare the red priests in the temple at Volantis and the Arya chapter in the town near Harrenhall, we see there are actually many, many common turns of phrase and symbols present. These scenes are both telling something about fire magic people from the Dawn Age, or about greenseers interacting with fire, or the destruction of trees by man's fire - something along those lines.

[vuk]

Wow, really great comments here Julia H. I was trying to address this early on in the essay... But yes, I don't think that sacrificing someone else is a noble act - sacrificing yourself is a noble act. That's exactly how i see it.

Your ideas about the BSE here are terrific - we are speculating here, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense, fits with what we know of the GEotD, and fits with the larger themes at play in the book. I am going to keep these ideas in mind and chew on them.

I think Vuk was barking up the same tree here.

So good intentions regarding "the finding the Secret Flame" to put the things as they were, to reestablish the power of the Empire makes BSE and AA the same person. It makes sense due to GEoTD was at its weakest point during the reign of AmEm. He than killed (sacrificed) AmEm to take the throne and grab the power to make things better (perhaps thinking that was his duty) and got the LN instead. After that he saw that all he has done was wrong and made a LB. But there's that one little thing that miss - when and how BSE forged LB? Does he kill his wife? Is there any text support for this? If there is, I missed it.

[LmL]

I do not know if he actually forged the sword when he murdered his wife, andI don;t know if his murder of his wife happened at the moment of the impact, before, or after. Those things are left for others to sort out, if we even can sort them out. My thinking is that the events happen in the sky, and then play out on the ground, but I am by no means certain. What I do know is that Lightbringer was made from that black, sun drinking moon stone. Before murdering Nissa? After? During? I do not know. I am enjoying all the ideas here, but I just don't have any way of knowing these specifics. My conlusion that he didn't forge the sword to fight the darkness is based on the idea that the ground events should match with those in the sky, whatever the cause -effect relationship. The forging of LB in the heart of the moon caused the LN, so the murder of Nissa and the creation of LB should be associated with the cause of the Long Night also. If I am right that BSE = AA, then a lot of it just follows logic, based on what we know of the BSE. Some of that stuff said about him could be wrong - but not the enslavement, torture, and necromancy, I am thinking. All of it together tells a cohesive story - this guy was magical Hitler. Pol Pot the wizard. Something like that. Whether his intentions were good or not, it seems clear he left a legacy of death and destruction.

It all fits together - AA made his sword from a black stone, and worked every kind of dark magic imaginable. He comes from Asshai (and we know what goes on there), land of Shadow, and people who call him a hero are also horrible child-burning fanatics. Shadowbinders and the like. He was a corruption of whatever goodness the GEotD had. Pale fire swords became swords of red and black flame (my theory), and he may well have created the black dragons who breathe black flame. That's our man.

I really don't see how Dawn can be Azor Ahai's sword, as everything about it is white and icy, the opposite of the shadowy fire stuff which surrounds AA and the BSE.

[vuk]

Afterthought in addition: Since among the BSE's sins was counted a taking of a tiger-woman for a wife, along with the necromancy and other terrible things, that must be for a big reason. She had some magic abilities perhaps, or like Mel was able to predict some future events. Maybe tiger-woman suggested him to do all the terrible things he has done and finally kill his sister to remake the golden age. When he saw what he has brought on the realm he killed her in his wrath with a sword made of black stone (valirian steel) and made Lightbringer. In that way, Dawn wouldn't be LB. That could works if we assume that BSE loved tiger woman so much, more than himself, so much he trusted her, and when he saw the disaster brought upon the world, he sensed what was his duty as a ruler and commit the selfsacrifice by killing his wife, person he loved the most and person responsible for the bringing the LN.

[vuk]

I do not know if he actually forged the sword when he murdered his wife, andI don;t know if his murder of his wife happened at the moment of the impact, before, or after. Those things are left for others to sort out, if we even can sort them out. My thinking is that the events happen in the sky, and then play out on the ground, but I am by no means certain. What I do know is that Lightbringer was made from that black, sun drinking moon stone. Before murdering Nissa? After? During? I do not know. I am enjoying all the ideas here, but I just don't have any way of knowing these specifics. My conlusion that he didn't forge the sword to fight the darkness is based on the idea that the ground events should match with those in the sky, whatever the cause -effect relationship. The forging of LB in the heart of the moon caused the LN, so the murder of Nissa and the creation of LB should be associated with the cause of the Long Night also. If I am right that BSE = AA, then a lot of it just follows logic, based on what we know of the BSE. Some of that stuff said about him could be wrong - but not the enslavement, torture, and necromancy, I am thinking. All of it together tells a cohesive story - this guy was magical Hitler. Pol Pot the wizard. Something like that. Whether his intentions were good or not, it seems clear he left a legacy of death and destruction.

It all fits together - AA made his sword from a black stone, and worked every kind of dark magic imaginable. He comes from Asshai (and we know what goes on there), land of Shadow, and people who call him a hero are also horrible child-burning fanatics. Shadowbinders and the like. He was a corruption of whatever goodness the GEotD had. Pale fire swords became swords of red and black flame (my theory), and he may well have created the black dragons who breathe black flame. That's our man.

I really don't see how Dawn can be Azor Ahai's sword, as everything about it is white and icy, the opposite of the shadowy fire stuff which surrounds AA and the BSE.

Considering the shadowbinders and others from Asshai I am totally agree they are villians. They could descend from the people who were around him and helped him kill AmEm. If BSE=AA, Dawn certainly is not LB. I just think we must have some hint that confirms BSE as AA. The whole astronomy story is really great, you did amazing job by creating this, so much things fit. I just think we could have some basic timeline of great events, but it is not necessary ofc. I also agree things played on the sky and after that on the ground, just search for a confirmation that ground event is that one we talk about, not to oppose any part of your theory, on contrary to support it.

[Julia H.]

Wow, really great comments here Julia H. I was trying to address this early on in the essay... But yes, I don't think that sacrificing someone else is a noble act - sacrificing yourself is a noble act. That's exactly how i see it.

Your ideas about the BSE here are terrific - we are speculating here, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense, fits with what we know of the GEotD, and fits with the larger themes at play in the book. I am going to keep these ideas in mind and chew on them.

I think Vuk was barking up the same tree here.

Thanks! I saw this story unfold in my mind's eye soon after I got acquainted with your BSE=AA theory. Perhaps it was your forum name that gave me the idea that the villain must have "fallen" rather than being born evil. :) He may have wanted a heroic reputation, after all, as evidenced by his myth.

Afterthought in addition: Since among the BSE's sins was counted a taking of a tiger-woman for a wife, along with the necromancy and other terrible things, that must be for a big reason. She had some magic abilities perhaps, or like Mel was able to predict some future events. Maybe tiger-woman suggested him to do all the terrible things he has done and finally kill his sister to remake the golden age. When he saw what he has brought on the realm he killed her in his wrath with a sword made of black stone (valirian steel) and made Lightbringer. In that way, Dawn wouldn't be LB. That could works if we assume that BSE loved tiger woman so much, more than himself, so much he trusted her, and when he saw the disaster brought upon the world, he sensed what was his duty as a ruler and commit the selfsacrifice by killing his wife, person he loved the most and person responsible for the bringing the LN.

I wonder why this tiger-woman reminds me of a certain lioness in another age and on another continent... :P

Still, I think the BSE's Nissa Nissa was the Amethyst Empress. The dark sacrifice was the sin, the betrayal. I'm saying this because I have a problem with the idea that it's a kind of self-sacrifice when you kill another person, no matter how close you are. It seems to me that if LmL's theory is correct, then we just have to accept that our sources do not tell us exactly what happened. If the BSE killed the AE with Lightbringer and it started the Long Night, then LB wasn't forged to end the Long Night. Or, maybe the Long Night started first, then LB was forged using the meteor / black stone, and only then was the AE killed, but then this is not exactly what the legend of the GEotD says.

Now, on the one hand, we have the words of a chronicle, which must be full of mistakes but is still the in-universe equivalent of a historian's work, so it is supposed to describe what really happened, a specific story. On the other hand, we have the myth of Azor Ahai. A myth doesn't tell us a specific story, but something generalized that all listeners are supposed to relate to and understand. (This is, of course, based on Aristotle's comparison of history and poetry.) I would guess that in this case, the myth is a "bard's truth", which is different from yours or mine (as Ygritte would say), and different from the historian's account, but it is still true at a different level.

[White Ravens]

“Your head’s as wooden as your teeth,” Hake told him. “There’s no smell to cold.”

There is, thought Jon, remembering the night in the Lord Commander’s chambers. It smells like death.

Suddenly he was not hungry anymore. He gave his stew to Grenn, who looked in need of an extra supper to warm him against the night. The wind was blowing briskly when he left. By morning, frost would cover the ground, and the tent ropes would be stiff and frozen. A few fingers of spiced wine sloshed in the bottom of the kettle. Jon fed fresh wood to the fire and put the kettle over the flames to reheat. He flexed his fingers as he waited, squeezing and spreading until the hand tingled. The first watch had taken up their stations around the perimeter of the camp. Torches flickered all along the ringwall. The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead.

Moonless? What happened? Oh, that's right, the fiery hand of god happened. Bye bye moon, hello a thousand falling stars. Jon's burned hand tingles as the wine heats up. And torches, naturally.

I applaud all of the effort that you put into your theories and posts but sometimes I find that your hunger for metaphor reaches too far. Sometimes GRRM's descriptions of the night sky might just be descriptions. I don't have your knack for spotting metaphor but I am somewhat of an amateur astronomer and stargazer. Stargazers follow the moons monthly cycle because a full moon is so bright that faint stars are not visible when it is in the sky. When the moon is not in the night sky many faint stars and subtle effects such as the swath of the milky way become visible. This is not magic, it is a cyclicle phenomenon that is linked to the phases of the moon.

[LmL]

One of the keys that identifies a metaphor is the use of specific phrases, and the use of of multiple such phrases in close proximity. The "thousands stars" is one of the most important and recurring motifs - thousands stars refers to the meteor shower, as I attempted to show in the first essay. A thousand red doors, a thousand campfires, and thousand flickering lights, a thousand eyes looking down, etc. When you get that symbol next to "moonless," that's getting warmer. The fingers, torches, and blood are all identifying symbols, as is going up and down something (like the Morningstar). I didn't include more of the text before and after this quote, but there are more Lightbringer symbols present, all of which together identify a Lifhtbringer / astronomy metaphor is occurring. The Fist of the First Men is also a very important location, and Martin tends to place metaphors in proximity to certain key places or people.

I am going to put out an essay which breaks down the birthing of dragons scene, as this scene acts like a template for Lightbringer metaphors. All of the important motifs and symbols are laid out in that scene, and all the astronomy metaphor passages repeat many of its details. I'm numbering and annotating every word and phrase through that scene which is a reference to something about Lightbringer, so that it can be used as a key. When I dissect other scenes which I believe to be metaphorical, I can then reference Dany's dragon birthing scene to show how many individual details are correlated and used the same way.

I think this *may* help some folks see that bigger picture here. Info understand your point - inevitably, there are some things which are just descriptions of a thing, with no symbolic meaning. First, I would say that the moon is not one of them. Give this a try - pull out ADWD (or any of the books really) and do a word search on "moon." (You'll need the ebook version for this of course). Now just read all the descriptions of the moon, one after another, and see if you don't think George is trying to tell us something about moons.

For one to be able to hide a metaphor or double meaning, there must be some ostensible purpose for the comment. Martin can imply a vanished moon only by taking advantage of times when we have a new moon or clouds blocking the sky, and I I've found that he never fails to couple those situations with clues about the moon's destruction. And again, just to signal is that we are in a metaphor, he places recognizable LB clues in close proximity, and then characters will start doing things which match the pattern of the archetype they are acting out. So you will always be able to look at any metaphorical scene and show why the ostensible purpose makes sense - sometimes the sky is moonless, indeed. But if one WERE trying to hide clues about a moon that was destroyed and created a "thousand dragon" meteor shower, one would probably take advantage of moonless nights to imply the second moon's destruction.

[evita mgfs]

:bowdown: :bowdown: Hello Again, LUCIFER. I looked forward to visiting your threads all day – it is my treat to myself after getting all my real life chores and such done!

I have been following along, as best I can, and I understand the metaphors and the key language patterns. I may not be able to make the astrological connections, but I can share my observations about Martin’s language patterns.

My focus has been deconstructing AGoT through “close readings” of entire POVs or passages within these POVs. In tracing motifs, I start at the beginning – AGoT – where Martin establishes the groundwork for the novels to follow. In my “long-range perspective”, I see that the first novel as key in stacking the bricks and spreading the mortar to construct a MASTER “game plan”.

I truly comprehend what you are doing – each part connects strategically from one POV to another, sometimes, and then these parts continue to build upon one another, eventually reaching the moment of clarity and understanding – enlightenment. But getting from A to B is a task. A monumental task of organization and of reading the motifs/signs/symbols/metaphors accurately.

For instance, tracking the blood motif includes even more complex motifs that are integral to developing inclusive literary commentary. Blood alone is not a motif – but parallel the blood with Martin’s sensory details, and a pattern begins to develop. The blood motif marries with “taste” [one example] – Will and his pal Gared metaphorically “taste” fear in the Prologue of AGoT. Then, in Bran I, the “fear” as unifying device and thematic element is part of Bran’s lessons regarding Stark traditions and executing the king’s justice. Jon Snow perceives Bran’s unease and gives him words of encouragement.

Bran witnesses an event of great significance. He is mesmerized by the blood as red as summerwine – the Starks imbibe summerwine at the feast – Martin connects summerwine and blood – at some point the summerwine will be replaced by “blood”, and each Stark will taste blood in AGoT [albeit their own, in some instances].

I am simplifying a very arduous process that involves a cast of characters, actually, not just the Starks. :bang: But in the case of Bran, his first POV [literally and figuratively] and his last POV not even halfway through ADwD, comes full circle. Martin wants readers to connect the first beheading at the holdfast with the last beheading 1000’s of years in the past in front of the Winterfell heart tree. Why? Lots of reasons, actually. In part, Martin wants his readers to remember Ned’s advice to his son.

Ned engages Bran in a discussion , Bran 1 from AGoT. Aside from impressing upon him the Stark traditions, Ned speaks to Bran’s future [with unconscious irony]:

ORIGINAL

“One day Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will belong to you. When this day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is” (16).

REVISED

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you. When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood. A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

I hope my explanation makes some sense – I can perceive that you have a “big” task that involves lots of time in your head, and you know where you are going and you can’t wait to get there because you want to share it with your eager fans, like me. I definitely think that Martin goes through these writing “pains” – when the ideas are racing in his head faster than his fingers can hit the keys.

But then again, I could be totally wrong and what I just said may come across as ridiculous!

Anyway, I have a few notes to share about Martin’s poetic language, including the celestial bodies. I hope you – and others – like it. To me, Martin’s narratives for Bran grow increasingly more lyrical, poetic, enigmatic, and spiritual.

SOUNDS

Martin marks the journey of Bran and company to the Cave of Skulls with long periods of silence shattered by harsh, discordant noises, such as the ravens screaming, their leathern wings flapping, even Hodor screaming “Hodor”: “Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor.”

• Martin’s decision to employ figurative language and poetic devices is evident in his repetition of words and sounds, in his forgoing commas when using items in a series, in his pattern of grouping words in some series of numbers. In the example above, the pattern of lines is four words, four words, then five words, all of which share a balance and a center.
  

• The words may be delivered musically, such as a chant or a lilt. Martin has fun with his omission of commas in similar examples, which contrast sharply with those instances the items in a series are mechanically and grammatically sound.
  

Once Bran and his group enter the Cave of Skulls, Martin’s language becomes more poetic and lyrical, an homage to those who sing the song of earth. The singers and their heart-breaking voices are one redeeming feature of the time spent in the Cave of Skulls.

As a matter of fact, Martin creates a rhythm by repeating key words and phrases intermittently over the course of Bran’s Cave of Skulls POV’s.

For instance, the phasing moon announces nightfall, but Martin’s language is repeated word for word. Actually, this is a great epic tradition: repetition of words and sounds which some scholars believe assisted the bards in memorizing long works for oral performances.

• “The moon was fat and full” (ADwD 448, 452).
  
• “The moon was a black hole in the sky” (ADwD 449, 455).
  
• “The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife” (ADwD 454).
  

Repetition of key words and phrases establish transitions and tell the passage of time. Martin enriches his narratives through styling language with a myriad of poetic devices. He evokes a mental picture with the moon as a black hole in the sky, and he uses simile, the crescent moon is “thin and sharp as the blade of a knife”. These are but a few examples of how Martin makes music with words.

To demonstrate Martin’s poetic style, I will write in verse a passage from Bran’s last POV in ADwD:

The Cave of Skulls

Timeless, vast, silent

Were the caves

They were Home

To three score singers

The bones of thousands

Dead

Far below

The hollow hill

Martin elevates his prose to poetry, and in this he truly embraces the totality of the genre “great epic”. Only POEMS about the deeds of heroes are “great epics”.

Martin’s fondness for lyrical language sets a mystical, magical tone that permeates and thickens as Bran’s points-of-view may be less frequent and more cryptic.

In ADwD, Bran’s final POV is at the midpoint of my text, roughly. But Martin cleverly intimates Bran’s growing powers in those POVs attributed to Theon and his assorted appellations.

[oursisthefury69]

:bowdown: :bowdown: Hello Again, LUCIFER. I looked forward to visiting your threads all day – it is my treat to myself after getting all my real life chores and such done!

I have been following along, as best I can, and I understand the metaphors and the key language patterns. I may not be able to make the astrological connections, but I can share my observations about Martin’s language patterns.

My focus has been deconstructing AGoT through “close readings” of entire POVs or passages within these POVs. In tracing motifs, I start at the beginning – AGoT – where Martin establishes the groundwork for the novels to follow. In my “long-range perspective”, I see that the first novel as key in stacking the bricks and spreading the mortar to construct a MASTER “game plan”.

I truly comprehend what you are doing – each part connects strategically from one POV to another, sometimes, and then these parts continue to build upon one another, eventually reaching the moment of clarity and understanding – enlightenment. But getting from A to B is a task. A monumental task of organization and of reading the motifs/signs/symbols/metaphors accurately.

For instance, tracking the blood motif includes even more complex motifs that are integral to developing inclusive literary commentary. Blood alone is not a motif – but parallel the blood with Martin’s sensory details, and a pattern begins to develop. The blood motif marries with “taste” [one example] – Will and his pal Gared metaphorically “taste” fear in the Prologue of AGoT. Then, in Bran I, the “fear” as unifying device and thematic element is part of Bran’s lessons regarding Stark traditions and executing the king’s justice. Jon Snow perceives Bran’s unease and gives him words of encouragement.

Bran witnesses an event of great significance. He is mesmerized by the blood as red as summerwine – the Starks imbibe summerwine at the feast – Martin connects summerwine and blood – at some point the summerwine will be replaced by “blood”, and each Stark will taste blood in AGoT [albeit their own, in some instances].

I am simplifying a very arduous process that involves a cast of characters, actually, not just the Starks. :bang: But in the case of Bran, his first POV [literally and figuratively] and his last POV not even halfway through ADwD, comes full circle. Martin wants readers to connect the first beheading at the holdfast with the last beheading 1000’s of years in the past in front of the Winterfell heart tree. Why? Lots of reasons, actually. In part, Martin wants his readers to remember Ned’s advice to his son.

Ned engages Bran in a discussion , Bran 1 from AGoT. Aside from impressing upon him the Stark traditions, Ned speaks to Bran’s future [with unconscious irony]:

ORIGINAL

“One day Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will belong to you. When this day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is” (16).

REVISED

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you. When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood. A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

I hope my explanation makes some sense – I can perceive that you have a “big” task that involves lots of time in your head, and you know where you are going and you can’t wait to get there because you want to share it with your eager fans, like me. I definitely think that Martin goes through these writing “pains” – when the ideas are racing in his head faster than his fingers can hit the keys.

But then again, I could be totally wrong and what I just said may come across as ridiculous!

Anyway, I have a few notes to share about Martin’s poetic language, including the celestial bodies. I hope you – and others – like it. To me, Martin’s narratives for Bran grow increasingly more lyrical, poetic, enigmatic, and spiritual.

SOUNDS

Martin marks the journey of Bran and company to the Cave of Skulls with long periods of silence shattered by harsh, discordant noises, such as the ravens screaming, their leathern wings flapping, even Hodor screaming “Hodor”: “Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor.”

• Martin’s decision to employ figurative language and poetic devices is evident in his repetition of words and sounds, in his forgoing commas when using items in a series, in his pattern of grouping words in some series of numbers. In the example above, the pattern of lines is four words, four words, then five words, all of which share a balance and a center.

• The words may be delivered musically, such as a chant or a lilt. Martin has fun with his omission of commas in similar examples, which contrast sharply with those instances the items in a series are mechanically and grammatically sound.

Once Bran and his group enter the Cave of Skulls, Martin’s language becomes more poetic and lyrical, an homage to those who sing the song of earth. The singers and their heart-breaking voices are one redeeming feature of the time spent in the Cave of Skulls.

As a matter of fact, Martin creates a rhythm by repeating key words and phrases intermittently over the course of Bran’s Cave of Skulls POV’s.

For instance, the phasing moon announces nightfall, but Martin’s language is repeated word for word. Actually, this is a great epic tradition: repetition of words and sounds which some scholars believe assisted the bards in memorizing long works for oral performances.

• “The moon was fat and full” (ADwD 448, 452).

• “The moon was a black hole in the sky” (ADwD 449, 455).

“The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife” (ADwD 454).

Repetition of key words and phrases establish transitions and tell the passage of time. Martin enriches his narratives through styling language with a myriad of poetic devices. He evokes a mental picture with the moon as a black hole in the sky, and he uses simile, the crescent moon is “thin and sharp as the blade of a knife”. These are but a few examples of how Martin makes music with words.

To demonstrate Martin’s poetic style, I will write in verse a passage from Bran’s last POV in ADwD:

The Cave of Skulls

Timeless, vast, silent

Were the caves

They were Home

To three score singers

The bones of thousands

Dead

Far below

The hollow hill

Martin elevates his prose to poetry, and in this he truly embraces the totality of the genre “great epic”. Only POEMS about the deeds of heroes are “great epics”.

Martin’s fondness for lyrical language sets a mystical, magical tone that permeates and thickens as Bran’s points-of-view may be less frequent and more cryptic.

In ADwD, Bran’s final POV is at the midpoint of my text, roughly. But Martin cleverly intimates Bran’s growing powers in those POVs attributed to Theon and his assorted appellations.

Some really great points, Brans final POV is amongst my favorite chapters in the whole series (and its probably before the midpoint if anything, I wonder how many chapters Bran even has left). The poetic language being heightened/instilled as soon as they're among those who sing the song of earth is an excellent pick-up, and there's certainly multiple levels of significance to the repetition of the moon phases.

Between this and the thread touching on the connection between Jon and the Psalms (not sure off the top of m head who wrote it, all the credit off course goes to them if anybody knows what im referencing) there's been some really cool, extremely subtle things people have been picking up on lately

[LmL]

evita mgfs:

I hope my explanation makes some sense – I can perceive that you have a “big” task that involves lots of time in your head, and you know where you are going and you can’t wait to get there because you want to share it with your eager fans, like me. I definitely think that Martin goes through these writing “pains” – when the ideas are racing in his head faster than his fingers can hit the keys.

But then again, I could be totally wrong and what I just said may come across as ridiculous!

​Nope, not at all. You've put your finger right on it. I could show you my first draft that I typed in a mad fit of staying up all night creativity - it has the seeds for every essay I have written, plus several more I am still trying to get to. I had about a week of lightning insight, which is basically 90% of my entire theory... I'm actually really surprised at how much of it has held up. I was making intuitive leaps basedon only a few passages back then, and since then I have found many, many more examples to back up my basic premises, many of them more clear any easy to follow that the ones I found first.

I'm working through your comments here but I wanted to say that really quick. :thumbsup:

[LmL]

Some really great points, Brans final POV is amongst my favorite chapters in the whole series (and its probably before the midpoint if anything, I wonder how many chapters Bran even has left). The poetic language being heightened/instilled as soon as they're among those who sing the song of earth is an excellent pick-up, and there's certainly multiple levels of significance to the repetition of the moon phases.

Between this and the thread touching on the connection between Jon and the Psalms (not sure off the top of m head who wrote it, all the credit off course goes to them if anybody knows what im referencing) there's been some really cool, extremely subtle things people have been picking up on lately

If anyone knows about that thread, I'd love to take a look. :)