Tyrion is my Valonqar

[toastybred]

My rundown of this topic can be summarized as thus:

• GRRM says prophecy and visions are tricky things.
• Maggie the Frog gives a vague prophecy to Cersei about the Valonqar.
• Cersei, who already dislikes Tyrion because he is deformed, a man, and "killed" their mother, immediately makes the association Valonqar == Tyrion.
• Cersei tries to disadvantage, discredit, and eventually destroy Tyrion out of the perception that he is going to eventually ruin her and possibly kill her based solely on a prophesy.
• Tyrion is unaware of the prophecy and grows up with a sister who hates him and actively works against him to an ever increasing degree.
• Tyrion, having no idea why she is working against him other than she is hateful and evil, has an increasing resentment towards Cersei.
• Eventually, Tyrion's resentment of his sister grows to the point that he fantasizes about killing her.

All of this is leading to a situation where Tyrion kills Cersei and we are left with a self fulfilling prophecy. Tyrion kills Cersei because she was hateful to him his whole life but Cersei was hateful to him because it was prophesied that he'd kill her. I believe this will be the most concrete prophesy to be fulfilled, meaning we won't get a simple resolution to PtwP or AA. However, by having this one "come true" it will stir controversy because did it come true through accurate prediction by Maggie or was it simply Cersei's reaction to the prophecy causing it to come true.

 

To me it just feels way less contrived than most of the other Valonqar theories and more in-line thematically with the book. What do you guys think?

[toastybred]

I'm kind of regretting already the way I wrote this up, it kind of portrays Tyrion as an innocent that he isn't. I should have phrased it as the Valonqar prophecy planted the seed that grows into an increasingly combative relationship between Cersei and Tyrion.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I would agree if Cersei was ever right about anything.

 

While Cersei's own actions will cause whoever the valonqar is to kill her, that doesn't mean any of it will play out as she expects.  

 

There are plenty of little brothers who could strangle Cersei, and who would like to, but only a handful that would really make sense within the narrative given the way things have gone, and they ways they are most likely to go in the final books.

[Taenqyrhae]

I think it will be a Kettleblack.

[Gertrude]

Jaime is my valonqar. I think one of my very first posts on the old board was discussing the possibility of Jaime killing Cersei and leaving the world together. It was an original thought from me, but apparently not an uncommon one as I found out. That was long before the valonqar prophecy so when that came out, it just strengthened my belief in it.

[toastybred]

I would agree if Cersei was ever right about anything.

 

While Cersei's own actions will cause whoever the valonqar is to kill her, that doesn't mean any of it will play out as she expects.  

 

There are plenty of little brothers who could strangle Cersei, and who would like to, but only a handful that would really make sense within the narrative given the way things have gone, and they ways they are most likely to go in the final books.

 

I get what you are saying and I think we kind of agree. However, in this instance why it'd make perfect sense thematically is that Cersei creates her own fate by believing in the prophecy. It seems like it would totally play to GRRM's 'nothing is black and white' mentality. It becomes confusing whether prophecy works in this world because Cersei creates her fate by treating specifically Tyrion like crap out of a belief in the prophecy.

[toastybred]

Jaime is my valonqar. I think one of my very first posts on the old board was discussing the possibility of Jaime killing Cersei and leaving the world together. It was an original thought from me, but apparently not an uncommon one as I found out. That was long before the valonqar prophecy so when that came out, it just strengthened my belief in it.

 

It's cool that you came to such a conclusion so early on for these characters. It does have a Romeo and Juliet turned on its head quality to it. Like everything is inverted but the central plot is the same.

[Gertrude]

Thanks.

I didn't actually make a point or add to the discussion though. Let me fix that. I think there is enough hinting towards Jaime and Cersei having a shared fate in the first few books. It makes a sort of literary sense. The main thing that got me started thinking in this direction was that Jaime entered the world holding Cersei's foot. They have been as one from the beginning and Cersei describes their relationship to Ned saying they are two halves of a whole.

Once we start seeing into Jaime's head, we get the beginnings of a redemption arc for him. We know Cersei is a nasty bit of work and we didn't have any reason to think Jaime was any different. But now we can see that's not true. He thinks on how he's become the Smiling Knight. One might say that it was his love for Cersei that let him stray so far from the path he wanted. He wasn't forced, but was lead willingly and with no regard for the consequences.

Once he begins to examine his choices and starts to see a different side of Cersei, it made sense to me that one way of 'redeeming' himself would be to eliminate his mistake. That sounds harsher than I see it, but I don't mean that he sees killing Cersei as a solution for his own problems. At the time, I envisioned Cersei on the brink of doing something truly destructive and Jaime being in a position to recognize it and prevent it. Much like the situation with Aerys, to be honest. This time he wouldn't let Cersei have her way, he would stand up to her. His two finest acts would look like the vilest of acts, kingslaying and kinslaying, and no one but him would know the truth. A very sad end for them, but that's how I saw it going down.

Now with the Cersei PoVs it is clear that Cersei is more than just cruel and callous, she is truly destructive and toxic. This, as well as the prophecy, reinforces it for me.

You state in the OP that Cersei already disliked Tyrion from the start. She was already cruel to him as a small baby for killing her mother. Tywin would still have hated him and Cersei would only have been more encouraged by that. The very night she recieved the prophecy she killed her friend, so she didn't turn extra vicious and cruel because of it, it was already there. I don't think the propecy adds appreciably to the malice she already felt towards Tyrion, it just makes her feel more justified. It probably adds to the cycle, but like I said, not a whole lot.

[Chequy lion]

I think it will be a Kettleblack.

I have thought about this and made topics about it before. It doesn't seem to popular but it's possible. Osney is in a terrible situation at the end of ADWD and it's all because of Cerseis manipulation and seduction of him.

He could be the hands that do the strangling and Jamie could free him from prison to do just that. Maybe..

Martin is pretty good at dodging our expectations but at the same time, Jamie makes huuuge sense to be the valonqar. This way it dodges expectations but also fits the hints and prophecies.

It's a possibility.

[Chinoiserie]

I do not really like self-fullfilling prophesies and I do not think we have seen those in these series so far. But it is a possibility.

[ambi76]

I also hope it's him.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

I get what you are saying and I think we kind of agree. However, in this instance why it'd make perfect sense thematically is that Cersei creates her own fate by believing in the prophecy. It seems like it would totally play to GRRM's 'nothing is black and white' mentality. It becomes confusing whether prophecy works in this world because Cersei creates her fate by treating specifically Tyrion like crap out of a belief in the prophecy.

But she creates her own fate regardless of who kills her.  Whoever it is will be doing it because of her actions.  In trying to avoid the wrong things she brings the right things to pass.

 

Long-winded example:

 

1. Cersei tthinks Margaery is the YMBQ, so she frames her.  

2. Margaery loses her trial (partly thanks to Varys bumping off the star witness against her, making everyone think that the Tyrells killed the only one who could say for certain if she was guilty).

3. Margaery is executed.

4. The Tyrells take revenge by poisoning Tommen. Olenna's already done that to one of Cersei's sons, why not another?

5. Myrcella becomes queen.

6. Nymeria and Tyene make certain that Myrcella knows that it was Cersei's framing of Margaery that led to Tommen's death.

7. Cersei is stripped of power.

8. Jaime is named Hand and becomes close to his daughter.

9. Through all of this Myrcella is blossoming into her full beauty, while Cersei's looks are fading.

10. On a visit to see her daughter, Cersei realizes that Myrcella has taken away her power, her status, Jaime, and even herself, and Myrcella is now more beautiful than her mother.

11. Cersei snaps and kills the YMBQ, her own child.

12. Jaime finds out that Cersei killed his now-beloved daughter. He realizes she has taken everything from him--the possibility of a family, all three of his children, his self-respect--and strangles her to death with his chain of office.

 

Cersei has still brought the whole thing about while trying to avoid it, but had all the details wrong.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I have thought about this and made topics about it before. It doesn't seem to popular but it's possible. Osney is in a terrible situation at the end of ADWD and it's all because of Cerseis manipulation and seduction of him.

He could be the hands that do the strangling and Jamie could free him from prison to do just that. Maybe..

Martin is pretty good at dodging our expectations but at the same time, Jamie makes huuuge sense to be the valonqar. This way it dodges expectations but also fits the hints and prophecies.

It's a possibility.

There's also a very strong guy who is devoted to the idea of Daenerys and has killed a woman via strangulation before...Victarion Greyjoy.  

 

Lots of little brothers who would be happy to take her down, and could be made to work within the narrative.

 

Part of me wants it to be the entire group of the Second Sons, even though that would make very little sense.