Alternative reasons for Lyanna's kidnapping

[Guest]

Okay, I know everyone loves R+L=J and I'll mostly get hate but I just want to discuss the other possible reasons why Lyanna was taken besides love or prophecy. Like did she accidentally overhear or stumble over whatever plot there was to deal with the Mad King? Rhaegar or his conspirators kidnapped her to ensure the safety of their schemes? Maybe Rhaegar had little to do with the actual act and was left with the consequences? What are your theories?

[Knight Of Winter]

Hi, Stranger's Eyes, and welcome to the forums :cheers:

The reasons for Rhaegar kidnapping/eloping with Lyanna have been discussed at length, but I find these two alternate interpretations to be particularly interesting:

 

1) Lyanna was unhappy with her arranged marriage to Bob, and approached crown prince hoping for help.

2) Rhaegar knew that Aerys wanted to harm Knight of the Laughing Tree. Having discovered that KOTLT was actually Lyanna, he took her to keep her safe from his lunatic father.

[TimJames]

I personally believe Rhaegar was just a bad person who thought being the Promised Prince entitled him to whatever and whoever the hell he wanted.

I know my opinion is not a commen one, but I think Rhaegar kidbapped and sexually assaulted Lyanna.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Okay, I know everyone loves R+L=J and I'll mostly get hate but I just want to discuss the other possible reasons why Lyanna was taken besides love or prophecy. Like did she accidentally overhear or stumble over whatever plot there was to deal with the Mad King? Rhaegar or his conspirators kidnapped her to ensure the safety of their schemes? Maybe Rhaegar had little to do with the actual act and was left with the consequences? What are your theories?

 

Actually, I don't think that many people believe Lyanna was kidnapped, period. Some believe it was a story of star-crossed lovers from the beginning. I presently am leaning toward a variance of the Alys Karstark situation: girl's less than enthusiastic about the fella her family want her to marry, and seeks her liege lord's son's protection to get out of this bind.

TJ is correct, the "King Robert was totes right, #RhaegarEvilRapist" crowd is a minority. (And that's a good thing).

[purple-eyes]

 

Actually, I don't think that many people believe Lyanna was kidnapped, period. Some believe it was a story of star-crossed lovers from the beginning. I presently am leaning toward a variance of the Alys Karstark situation: girl's less than enthusiastic about the fella her family want her to marry, and seeks her liege lord's son's protection to get out of this bind.

TJ is correct, the "King Robert was totes right, #RhaegarEvilRapist" crowd is a minority. (And that's a good thing).

 

So Lyanna seek help from the prince to escape from unfaithful fiancee and then paid this married prince back by nice sex and a baby to show her appreciation?

[Taenqyrhae]

The secret Pact of Ice and Fire where the Starks pretended to bend the knee to their new vassals the Targaryans in exchange for the blood of Targaryan princes once a generation.  This is why Lyarra left Rickon, and her daughter Lyanna had that wolf blood too that made her not want to go along with the duties that are part of being a Stark woman.  So Rhaegar is forced to kidnap her, because if the pact is not kept, the Others will return.

[YunoGasai]

Rhaegar just wanting a wild girl in bed bec. he found his wife boring. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Hi, Stranger's Eyes, and welcome to the forums :cheers:

The reasons for Rhaegar kidnapping/eloping with Lyanna have been discussed at length, but I find these two alternate interpretations to be particularly interesting:

 

1) Lyanna was unhappy with her arranged marriage to Bob, and approached crown prince hoping for help.

2) Rhaegar knew that Aerys wanted to harm Knight of the Laughing Tree. Having discovered that KOTLT was actually Lyanna, he took her to keep her safe from his lunatic father.

#2 all the way.

It is the only thing that works with what we know of Rhaegar.

He was a well thought out, kind man that cared very much for the future. He was planning on disposing his father because he had become a mad man. He was planning on trying to raise TPtwP to save all of mankind.

He was not the type to say "Screw it, I really love this 16 year old girl, even though this will likely start a war."

 

More likely he knew Lyanna was TKoLT, and found out his father or Father's men were after her, which meant certain death of Lyanna and a war between the North and it's allies and the Crown.

If he only warned Winterfell about the danger they would have locked down the castle and protected Lyanna, which would have led to war as well as the King would demand her turned over and Rickon would never do that.

 

To prevent that he intercepted Lyanna. Hoping to diffuse the situation, but by the time they got to the Tower of Joy, Rickon and Brandon were dead and the Banners were being called.

It was too late and the worst part is that Rhaegar would now take the blame for the war.

 

He may or may not have had feelings for Lyanna before this, but either way it grew into feelings of love and they were married and had Jon.

[purple-eyes]

#2 all the way.

It is the only thing that works with what we know of Rhaegar.

He was a well thought out, kind man that cared very much for the future. He was planning on disposing his father because he had become a mad man. He was planning on trying to raise TPtwP to save all of mankind.

He was not the type to say "Screw it, I really love this 16 year old girl, even though this will likely start a war."

 

More likely he knew Lyanna was TKoLT, and found out his father or Father's men were after her, which meant certain death of Lyanna and a war between the North and it's allies and the Crown.

If he only warned Winterfell about the danger they would have locked down the castle and protected Lyanna, which would have led to war as well as the King would demand her turned over and Rickon would never do that.

 

To prevent that he intercepted Lyanna. Hoping to diffuse the situation, but by the time they got to the Tower of Joy, Rickon and Brandon were dead and the Banners were being called.

It was too late and the worst part is that Rhaegar would now take the blame for the war.

 

He may or may not have had feelings for Lyanna before this, but either way it grew into feelings of love and they were married and had Jon.

 

In your scenario, Rhaegar could not provide better protection than her own father and brothers who had army and castle. It would be much much safer to stay in Winterfell for Lyanna than running to nowhere with Rhaegar if Aerys is hunting for her. In fact, running with rhaegar would make thing even worse. And Aerys did not even bother to do something about Lyanna when he summoned Rhaegar from TOJ. You are overestimating the importance of Lyanna in the mind of Aerys. KOLT was not dangerous at all and she did not continue to show up after HH either. Aerys was annoyed by it just because he did not show the identity. After that, the knight is gone and disappeared forever. Aerys probably did not even remember this mystery knight after one year. 

 

Rhaegar did not need much more reason. He just wanted to have a third child with a woman who is much younger and attractive than his sick, old and useless wife who did not marry him by his choice since the very beginning. 

He just did something every husband wanted to do in this scenario. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2) Rhaegar knew that Aerys wanted to harm Knight of the Laughing Tree. Having discovered that KOTLT was actually Lyanna, he took her to keep her safe from his lunatic father.

 

So... instead of hiding behind the mighty walls of Winterfell, or behind the even mightier walls of Storm's End, the lady should run under the protection of Mad King Aerys' own sworn swords? No, I don't think I'm with you here.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

In your scenario, Rhaegar could not provide better protection than her own father and brothers who had army and castle. It would be much much safer to stay in Winterfell for Lyanna than running to nowhere with Rhaegar if Aerys is hunting for her. In fact, running with rhaegar would make thing even worse. And Aerys did not even bother to do something about Lyanna when he summoned Rhaegar from TOJ. You are overestimating the importance of Lyanna in the mind of Aerys. KOLT was not dangerous at all and she did not continue to show up after HH either. Aerys was annoyed by it just because he did not show the identity. After that, the knight is gone and disappeared forever. Aerys probably did not even remember this mystery knight after one year. 

 

Rhaegar did not need much more reason. He just wanted to have a third child with a woman who is much younger and attractive than his sick, old and useless wife who did not marry him by his choice since the very beginning. 

He just did something every husband wanted to do in this scenario. 

Aerys burned people all the time, Lyanna did not need to be dangerous to him for her to be burned.

 

And if Lyanna was locked down in Winterfell, it would have led to war. Rickon would not hand her over and the King would be furious about it.

 

BUT, if Lyanna was with Rhaegar Aerys couldn't do anything. He sends a letter to Winterfell telling Rickon what he did and to back him against his father (like he try to do at Harrenhall) and there is no issue.

Problem was Brandon flew off the handle and got himself and his father killed. By then it was too late.

[ConfusedCounselor]

#2 all the way.

It is the only thing that works with what we know of Rhaegar.

He was a well thought out, kind man that cared very much for the future. He was planning on disposing his father because he had become a mad man. He was planning on trying to raise TPtwP to save all of mankind.

He was not the type to say "Screw it, I really love this 16 year old girl, even though this will likely start a war."

 

More likely he knew Lyanna was TKoLT, and found out his father or Father's men were after her, which meant certain death of Lyanna and a war between the North and it's allies and the Crown.

If he only warned Winterfell about the danger they would have locked down the castle and protected Lyanna, which would have led to war as well as the King would demand her turned over and Rickon would never do that.

 

To prevent that he intercepted Lyanna. Hoping to diffuse the situation, but by the time they got to the Tower of Joy, Rickon and Brandon were dead and the Banners were being called.

It was too late and the worst part is that Rhaegar would now take the blame for the war.

 

He may or may not have had feelings for Lyanna before this, but either way it grew into feelings of love and they were married and had Jon.

 

I always thought this theory made more sense of the Rhaegar motivation and the way Ned remembered him, though I like it more in additional to the prophecy one. Parallel motivation as it were.

 

However, I always wonder about the chronology. If I recall correctly, Rhaegar was sent after the KotlT before the end of the tournament, but at the end Lyanna was still present, sitting in plain daylight in the crowd.

Was it the queen of love and beauty bit that tipped Aerys off, after the tournament? 

[purple-eyes]

BUT, if Lyanna was with Rhaegar Aerys couldn't do anything. He sends a letter to Winterfell telling Rickon what he did and to back him against his father (like he try to do at Harrenhall) and there is no issue.

Problem was Brandon flew off the handle and got himself and his father killed. By then it was too late.

 

Come on, who is king? if Aerys asked Rhaegar to do something but Rhaegar rejected, then it is a treason. 

This is a perfect reason for Aerys to capture Rhaegar. Rhaegar had no army except a few KGs who in fact had to follow his father's order.

It is quite a stretch to say what rhaegar did was to save Lyanna from his father's hunting.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

Come on, who is king? if Aerys asked Rhaegar to do something but Rhaegar rejected, then it is a treason. 

This is a perfect reason for Aerys to capture Rhaegar. Rhaegar had no army except a few KGs who in fact had to follow his father's order.

It is quite a stretch to say what rhaegar did was to save Lyanna from his father's hunting.

He could call for Rhaegar's head, but he would have to find them first.

Why else go to the Tower of Joy if not to hide from his father?

Aerys sends men to find Rhaegar and bring him back.

 

If Rhaegar was just taking what he wanted then he could have gone back to the capitol. Aerys would not have done anything to him. UNLESS Lyanna was not safe at the capitol, UNLESS Rhaegar taking Lyanna was a reason for his father to mad.

 

Why would Rhaegar go to the trouble of covertly organizing the Harrenhall tournament to meet with Rickon and the others and then just throw it all away and run off with his daughter?

The same melancholy Rhaegar that sat and played his harp lost in thought? This was the man that just gambled everything for love and a third child?

 

Maybe Rhaegar did love Lyanna before they ran off, maybe he did want her to mother his third child.

The thing is, he had time. Lyanna marriage was not imminent. He could have bargained with Rickon and Robert, especially if he was about to take the Throne and become King.

There has to be a ticking clock on the situation for him to decide to run off. What was that clicking clock?

It has to be that Lyanna's life was in danger. Otherwise they could have taken their time

 

It explains the lack of notification to either side. Neither the Starks or the Targaryens knew where they went

It explains them going to the Tower of Joy.

[ConfusedCounselor]

 

Come on, who is king? if Aerys asked Rhaegar to do something but Rhaegar rejected, then it is a treason. 

This is a perfect reason for Aerys to capture Rhaegar. Rhaegar had no army except a few KGs who in fact had to follow his father's order.

It is quite a stretch to say what rhaegar did was to save Lyanna from his father's hunting.

 

The king moving directly against his heir is widely considered a bad move. Not even the Unworthy dared to, and Rhaegar had broader support still. 

 

There might be quite a few lords who were more willing to tolerate Aerys because Rhaegar was his heir. 

[purple-eyes]

Maybe Rhaegar did love Lyanna before they ran off, maybe he did want her to mother his third child.

The thing is, he had time. Lyanna marriage was not imminent. He could have bargained with Rickon and Robert, especially if he was about to take the Throne and become King.

There has to be a ticking clock on the situation for him to decide to run off. What was that clicking clock?

It has to be that Lyanna's life was in danger. Otherwise they could have taken their time

 

It explains the lack of notification to either side. Neither the Starks or the Targaryens knew where they went

It explains them going to the Tower of Joy.

 

Of course there is a clicking clock.

The clicking clock is this: Brandon is married soon, Robert is a grown man, Lyanna turned into 15, there is no doubt that Lyanna would marry Robert soon. 

Once Lyanna married Robert and lived with him, Rhaegar had absolute zero chance to get a child from her. Even he can, that child would be claimed as the child of Robert, not his. 

 

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. If she is single, then Rhaegar can have her openly in KL or DS. Areys would not care if his son has a paramour.

But she is not, so if Rhaegar had her in KL or DS, Robert and Starks would show up and make big trouble and try to claim Lyanna back. 

And then Areys would make even bigger trouble so rhaegar could not keep Lyanna with him for one year to have the baby. 

Even Rhaegar managed to make her pregnant, her family would immediately force her to drop her baby. 

 

Rhaegar hid in TOJ for one year because this is the only way to make sure he can have a baby birthed safely in full term. 

He is desperate to have a third child with Lyanna.

Everything he has done, honestly, pointed to the urgency to have this child.

This is rhaegar's first and highest priority.

If Elia can have more children, rhaegar would never run off with Lyanna.   

[purple-eyes]

 

The king moving directly against his heir is widely considered a bad move. Not even the Unworthy dared to, and Rhaegar had broader support still. 

 

There might be quite a few lords who were more willing to tolerate Aerys because Rhaegar was his heir. 

 

Daeron did not reject Aegon to surrender somebody he was hunting. 

If he did this type of thing, Aegon would disinherit him or take move against him. 

Not to mention Aerys had another true born son. Aegon only had some bastard sons. Daeron is his only trueborn son. 

If Rhaegar was supported by people like you proposed, he would just depose his father earlier. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

Of course there is a clicking clock.

The clicking clock is this: Brandon is married soon, Robert is a grown man, Lyanna turned into 15, there is no doubt that Lyanna would marry Robert soon. 

Once Lyanna married Robert and lived with him, Rhaegar had absolute zero chance to get a child from her. Even he can, that child would be claimed as the child of Robert, not his. 

 

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. If she is single, then Rhaegar can have her openly in KL or DS. Areys would not care if his son has a paramour.

But she is not, so if Rhaegar had her in KL or DS, Robert and Starks would show up and make big trouble and try to claim Lyanna back. 

And then Areys would make even bigger trouble so rhaegar could not keep Lyanna with him for one year to have the baby. 

Even Rhaegar managed to make her pregnant, her family would immediately force her to drop her baby. 

 

Rhaegar hid in TOJ for one year because this is the only way to make sure he can have a baby birthed safely in full term. 

He is desperate to have a third child with Lyanna.

Everything he has done, honestly, pointed to the urgency to have this child.

This is rhaegar's first and highest priority.

If Elia can have more children, rhaegar would never run off with Lyanna.   

Yes, they were betrothed but they did not have a set wedding date. Robert was still being fostered at the Vale.

They had time.

 

If it were Lyanna's marriage instead of Brandon's they were headed to then you have a point but there was still time for them negotiate something. Especially if it were King Rhaegar doing the talking.

 

And Rhaegar did not hide at the Tower for a year, he hid at the Tower, a war broke out he died and then Ned found Lyanna. Rhaegar was not around for a good portion of that year and you have no idea how long they would have been there if the war had not broken out.

[ConfusedCounselor]

 

Daeron did not reject Aegon to surrender somebody he was hunting. 

If he did this type of thing, Aegon would disinherit him or take move against him. 

Not to mention Aerys had another true born son. Aegon only had some bastard sons. Daeron is his only trueborn son. 

 

I do not think he would. His son was the only one who could defy him to an extent, especially if he didn't do it too openly. He is too liked and a Targaryen, and thus more dangerous to a madman like Aerys.

Maybe if Viserys was closer in age and close to Rhaegar in popularity, he could have, though it is also very inadvisable. Right now many people considered Rhaegar as the only bright spot of the Targ dynasty. 

 

If Rhaegar was supported by people like you proposed, he would just depose his father earlier. 

 

 

I would say that just being able to move against his father is plenty of proof of his popularity, especially compared to his father. The sentence is to be honest quite absurd.

He also thinks he should have done it earlier, as he tells Jaime prior to the Trident. Maybe he didn't have everything in order yet. Maybe Aerys hadn't gone quite far enough to reach breaking point with his son? 

[purple-eyes]

Yes, they were betrothed but they did not have a set wedding date. Robert was still being fostered at the Vale.

They had time.

 

If it were Lyanna's marriage instead of Brandon's they were headed to then you have a point but there was still time for them negotiate something. Especially if it were King Rhaegar doing the talking.

 

And Rhaegar did not hide at the Tower for a year, he hid at the Tower, a war broke out he died and then Ned found Lyanna. Rhaegar was not around for a good portion of that year and you have no idea how long they would have been there if the war had not broken out.

 

They did not have enough time to have a full-term healthy baby which at least requires about one year. 

 

Ok, let us say rhaegar was patient and he tried to negotiate with Rickard. 

If Rhaegar is lucky, Rickard may be happy to accept his offer. But honestly, Rhaegar would much more likely receive a big no from Rickard for three reasons: 1. Rickard needs to honor his promise to Robert. 2. Rickard may not be happy to see Lyanna as a "second wife". This is quite challenging for them. Especially Rhaegar had two children with Elia already. 3. Rickard has "southern ambition". He is planning to be against the king and he may not want to leave his daughter as an convenient hostage for Targ. 

If Rhaegar gets rejected, then Lyanna would be safely guarded and even forced to get married to Robert immediately to seal the deal, then Rhaegar got zero chance to father a child from her.  So there is a high risk that he will lose chance to have a child from Lyanna. 

 

He hid in the tower but he can not hide there forever. His plan is to show up after he gets a healthy baby.

baby first. No matter what happened after this, he got a baby already, his mission fulfiled.

This baby would be under his own protection and nobody can take this baby from him because he is the father.

Even he had to yield and return Lyanna to Stark or Robert, baby is already there. He is the winner.