Alternative reasons for Lyanna's kidnapping

[purple-eyes]

 

I think you're not considering the plan (heh) of Martin's final resolution.

 

Rhaegar was PLANNING things. He meant to fulfil the prophecy by having three kids. At the end, he was told Elia wouldn't give him more children. This probably shook his world and beliefs. Rather than saying "damn, I need to find myself another baby maker", he could have thought "maybe I am not the one who is meant to fulfil the whole thing".

 

Prophecies dont' work as you expect.

 

What is, in Martin's world, more likely to have happened?

 

That Rhaegar went to look for Lyanna and said "I need to get her pregnant asap and fulfill my prophecy because Doom is coming"?

 

or

 

That Rhaegar left KL to focus on politics and on his way, he had sex with a girl he liked and after realising she was pregnant, he saw that, indeed, this unplanned kid was planned by a stronger force that indeed gave him three kids and had no other options than take her away to a safe place?

 

Rhaegar planned things to fulfil a prophecy. His unplanned kid was the one the prophecy referred to and the prophecy fulfilled itself.

 

Honestly this sounds even worse than he did all of this by purpose. 

At least for that reason we can argue that he is a dutiful prince who wanted to save his people from Others at any cost. 

For your idea he is just a terrible husband and very poor politician who cheated his wife and at the same time ruined his kingdom for sex.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

Honestly this sounds even worse than he did all of this by purpose. 

At least for that reason we can argue that he is a dutiful prince who wanted to save his people from Others at any cost. 

For your idea he is just a terrible husband and very poor politician who cheated his wife and at the same time ruined his kingdom for sex.  

 

he has no obligations towards Elia beyond those he has done. He got her pregnant? check. Are the kids recognised as his? Check. She's protected? Check. Well fed and with a roof? Check.

 

Did he do wrong on having sex with another woman? Yes. I suppose the marriage vows are the same as ours and infidelity is not accepted. He did wrong. BUT unlike our times in which marriages are supported by love and you betray a spouse by having sex with others, this is not Westeros' case. They both are very well aware their marriage is political. I'm sure neither of them has more expectations than those they know they can have.

 

His cheating with Lyanna does not make Rhaegar a bad husband according to their standards.

 

If anything, if Rhaegar did something wrong, it was the secrecy. I suppose he had his reasons for keeping Lyanna hidden.

 

Now, the whole ruining the kingdom for sex is tricky. Rhaegar is not the first prince who took a maid to bed. No wars were fought for this. Aegon IV deflowered and got pregnant three girls of a Lord he visited. Egg's sons rejected ladies and infuriated two houses in the process.

 

Lyanna's "kidnapped" had little to do with the war. Because, let's make Brandon not go to KL and nothing happened. Or, make him go there with Rhaegar present. Brandon would have been given a trial by combat. Rhaegar cannot fight, so he had Arthur fighting instead. It's 200% likely Arthur had won. He didn't even need to kill him (Dunk didn't kill the Laughing Storm). And everything has continued as usual :dunno:

 

My point is, that narratively, the prophecy set up itself to happen. Or as Dr. Malcolm said "life finds a way". Had Rhaegar not run away with Lyanna and made Jon, we wouldn't have a hero be the rallying point for the fight against the Others. Rhaegar was rather a fate's fool into it than a proactive protagonist.

[purple-eyes]

 

he has no obligations towards Elia beyond those he has done. He got her pregnant? check. Are the kids recognised as his? Check. She's protected? Check. Well fed and with a roof? Check.

 

Did he do wrong on having sex with another woman? Yes. I suppose the marriage vows are the same as ours and infidelity is not accepted. He did wrong. BUT unlike our times in which marriages are supported by love and you betray a spouse by having sex with others, this is not Westeros' case. They both are very well aware their marriage is political. I'm sure neither of them has more expectations than those they know they can have.

 

His cheating with Lyanna does not make Rhaegar a bad husband according to their standards.

 

If anything, if Rhaegar did something wrong, it was the secrecy. I suppose he had his reasons for keeping Lyanna hidden.

 

Now, the whole ruining the kingdom for sex is tricky. Rhaegar is not the first prince who took a maid to bed. No wars were fought for this. Aegon IV deflowered and got pregnant three girls of a Lord he visited. Egg's sons rejected ladies and infuriated two houses in the process.

 

Lyanna's "kidnapped" had little to do with the war. Because, let's make Brandon not go to KL and nothing happened. Or, make him go there with Rhaegar present. Brandon would have been given a trial by combat. Rhaegar cannot fight, so he had Arthur fighting instead. It's 200% likely Arthur had won. He didn't even need to kill him (Dunk didn't kill the Laughing Storm). And everything has continued as usual :dunno:

 

My point is, that narratively, the prophecy set up itself to happen. Or as Dr. Malcolm said "life finds a way". Had Rhaegar not run away with Lyanna and made Jon, we wouldn't have a hero be the rallying point for the fight against the Others. Rhaegar was rather a fate's fool into it than a proactive protagonist.

 

Rhaegar did not expect a war, sure. We can not blame everything on him about the rebellion. Brandon and Aerys got a good share. If Brandon behaved better and Aerys was not mad, then there was no war.  

Rhaegar did have every right to sleep with any woman he wants, after all he is the crown prince, future king. He does not need to be limited into the bed of his wife. Elia's opinion was really not important. His mistress and her house usually would feel very honored and happy to have him in her bed. If Elia died, then Lyanna would be princess. Maybe they can also get something like "Lyanna's teats" as the name of the hill close to Winterfell. They certainly did not have good reason to declare a war (they did not do that either).

The point is, Rhaegar did a very stupid move to run off and hide like a teenager. 

 

Why not just stay in DS or KL? Did Aegon IV run off with any of his mistresses? Did Daemon Blackfyre run off with Dany? No and No. 

Firstly his father did not care if he has a paramour. Aerys himself humiliated Joanna who is the wife of LP in KL. Nothing serious happened except Tywin was a little bit bitter. And Lyanna was willing to stay with him. Rickard and Robert would feel angry but they can not do anything very serious. They would not raise a rebellion like this for the sake of Lyanna. Robert or Brandon may ask for a duel, but like you said, there was Arthur who can kill them easily. 

Then why did he run off and hide?

What is he hiding from? What is he worried?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What is he hiding from? What is he worried?

 

That's the mystery. We must wait to know.

 

But there is one thing we can consider. There is no way Rhaegar would have expected Brandon to act in the way he did. And Rhaegar was already on his way to Dorne. How could he have known what was happened? Honestly, it's very likely he found out when he got to the infamous tower.

[purple-eyes]

 

That's the mystery. We must wait to know.

 

But there is one thing we can consider. There is no way Rhaegar would have expected Brandon to act in the way he did. And Rhaegar was already on his way to Dorne. How could he have known what was happened? Honestly, it's very likely he found out when he got to the infamous tower.

 

Exactly. Rhaegar did not think this will cause a war. This is true. Without the help of Brandon and Aerys, no war will be fought. Only a bitter Robert there, and he can be taken care of by many ways. Rhaegar did not think about this at all and I do not blame him for this. 

Normally Rhaegar did not need to run off and hide. He did not fear Robert or Rickard or Elia. 

He ran off and hide to avoid the wrath of a more powerful and mad person-----his father,the only person in 7K who can harm him effectively.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Reading this thread, and I'm partially convinced about some of the theories (I like JonCon's Red Beard's one). I would like to believe Rhaegar was a somewhat decent guy.

I personally believe Rhaegar was just a bad person who thought [b]being the Promised Prince entitled him to whatever and whoever the hell he wanted. Iknow my opinion is not a commen one, but I think Rhaegar kidbapped and sexually assaulted Lyanna.

From what we've read so far, Rhaegar became convinced his son (aegon) was the prince.
Edit - my post went funny, and bolded everything. And the quote (why, I did everything right!)

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

Rhaegar lusted power above anything else, he tries to overthrow his own father (Varys made Aerys paranoid? or the actions of Rhaegar?, Varys as his duty dictates just informed Aerys of this plot).
He arranges a rigged tourney at HH to bring all the great Lords and make himself look a hero.
Then out of lust abandon his wife and kidnap and rape Lyanna keeping her confine to a tower with guards so she doesn't escape.
This fanfiction of Rhaegar and Lyanna in love and secretly married makes no sense to me.

PD: Everyone feels for Cat because of Ned dishonor, yet it is okay for Rhaegar to dishonor his wife.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Okay, I know everyone loves R+L=J and I'll mostly get hate but I just want to discuss the other possible reasons why Lyanna was taken besides love or prophecy. Like did she accidentally overhear or stumble over whatever plot there was to deal with the Mad King? Rhaegar or his conspirators kidnapped her to ensure the safety of their schemes? Maybe Rhaegar had little to do with the actual act and was left with the consequences? What are your theories?

 

I once saw someone make a rather convincing argument of this based off people seeing what they think they saw and not what they actually saw. It went something like this:

 

Joss nodded. "If it please His Grace—"

"His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like. Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. "I am Lord Eddard Stark, the King's Hand. Tell me who you are and what you know of these raiders."

 

Joss mistakes Eddard Stark for Robert Baratheon despite Ned wearing the Stark sigil, colors, and ornament of the Hand which should be making it clear that he is not the king simply because Ned is currently sitting the Iron Throne as Robert is out hunting.
 

Stannis did not pull away from Melisandre's touch as he had from his queen's. The red woman was all Selyse was not; young, full-bodied, and strangely beautiful, with her heart-shaped face, coppery hair, and unearthly red eyes. "It would be a wondrous thing to see stone come to life," he admitted, grudging. "And to mount a dragon . . . I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us." His fingers touched the surface of the table, tracing a path lightly across the varnished hills. "Robert took the skulls down when he donned the crown, but he could not bear to have them destroyed. Dragon wings over Westeros . . . there would be such a . . ."

 

Stannis and Robert both make that same exact mistake when they visit court as children with their father when they mistake Tywin Lannister for Aerys Targaryen when presumably Tywin would have been more or less dressed exactly as Ned was and therefore wearing all the clothing and ornaments that should make it clear that he is a Lannister and not a Targaryen.

 

So perhaps "Rhaegar" was wrongly identified by someone who missed all the signs that who they saw wasn't actually Rhaegar

 

But also, we have plenty of people making assumptions of who people must be

 

 

She smiled at the green knight. "Your helmet bears golden antlers, my lord. The stag is the sigil of the royal House. King Robert has two brothers. By your extreme youth, you can only be Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End and councillor to the king, and so I name you."

 

Sansa immediately identifies Renly upon meeting him for the first time because the knight before her's armor's green, his helmet has antlers, and because he's young he must be Renly.

 

 

A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

 

"You've seen no outlaws on the road?"

"None." Not this time. The farther they had come from Duskendale, the emptier the road had been. The only travelers they'd glimpsed had melted away into the woods before they reached them, save for a big, bearded septon they met walking south with twoscore footsore followers. Such inns as they passed had either been sacked and abandoned or turned into armed camps. Yesterday they had encountered one of Lord Randyll's patrols, bristling with longbows and lances. The horsemen had surrounded them while their captain questioned Brienne, but in the end he'd let them continue on their way. "Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies."

 

Jaime sipped his wine. "What makes you certain it was the Hound?" What they were describing sounded more like Gregor's work than Sandor's. Sandor had been hard and brutal, yes, but it was his big brother who was the real monster in House Clegane.

"He was seen," Ser Arwood said. "That helm of his is not easily mistaken, nor forgotten, and there were a few who survived to tell the tale. The girl he raped, some boys who hid, a woman we found trapped beneath a blackened beam, the fisherfolk who watched the butchery from their boats . . ."

 

The Hound is wrongly accused of raping and pillaging the Riverlands because someone else is wearing his distinctive helm.

 

And we know that Rhaegar himself wore distinctive armor

 

 

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

 

So perhaps "Rhaegar" was wrongly identified based off the assumption that who was seen had to be him because he was dressed as Rhaegar would have been

 

Not saying that any of this is what happened but the precedent is there that it might never have been Rhaegar

[purple-eyes]

I once saw someone make a rather convincing argument of this based off people seeing what they think they saw and not what they actually saw. It went something like this:
 

 
Joss mistakes Eddard Stark for Robert Baratheon despite Ned wearing the Stark sigil, colors, and ornament of the Hand which should be making it clear that he is not the king simply because Ned is currently sitting the Iron Throne as Robert is out hunting.
 

 
Stannis and Robert both make that same exact mistake when they visit court as children with their father when they mistake Tywin Lannister for Aerys Targaryen when presumably Tywin would have been more or less dressed exactly as Ned was and therefore wearing all the clothing and ornaments that should make it clear that he is a Lannister and not a Targaryen.
 
So perhaps "Rhaegar" was wrongly identified by someone who missed all the signs that who they saw wasn't actually Rhaegar
 
But also, we have plenty of people making assumptions of who people must be
 

 
Sansa immediately identifies Renly upon meeting him for the first time because the knight before her's armor's green, his helmet has antlers, and because he's young he must be Renly.
 



 
The Hound is wrongly accused of raping and pillaging the Riverlands because someone else is wearing his distinctive helm.
 
And we know that Rhaegar himself wore distinctive armor
 

 
So perhaps "Rhaegar" was wrongly identified based off the assumption that who was seen had to be him because he was dressed as Rhaegar would have been
 
Not saying that any of this is what happened but the precedent is there that it might never have been Rhaegar

Sure. It is howland reed inside rhaegar's ruby armor to crown his goddess Lyanna.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Rhaegar lusted power above anything else, he tries to overthrow his own father (Varys made Aerys paranoid? or the actions of Rhaegar?, Varys as his duty dictates just informed Aerys of this plot).
He arranges a rigged tourney at HH to bring all the great Lords and make himself look a hero.
Then out of lust abandon his wife and kidnap and rape Lyanna keeping her confine to a tower with guards so she doesn't escape.
This fanfiction of Rhaegar and Lyanna in love and secretly married makes no sense to me.

 

You might want to google "fanfiction". It does not mean what you think it means.

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" is a quote from the books. "Rhaegar lusted power" - huh? Now that, ser, looks more like an honest-to-gods fanfiction.

[purple-eyes]

You might want to google "fanfiction". It does not mean what you think it means.
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" is a quote from the books. "Rhaegar lusted power" - huh? Now that, ser, looks more like an honest-to-gods fanfiction.

I think it is more likely "rhaegar lusted prophecy".
That "love his lady" stuff was probably what he told to everybody after he came back from TOJ to KL.
He could not say "I did this eloping because I read a prophecy"
It is better to say he did everything for love.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

You might want to google "fanfiction". It does not mean what you think it means.

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" is a quote from the books. "Rhaegar lusted power" - huh? Now that, ser, looks more like an honest-to-gods fanfiction.

 

It's also however set beside examples that are not what actually happened.

 

 

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

- Daemon Blackfyre wanted to marry Daenerys sure, but when Daeron shut down the match (after Daemon had already been married to Rohanne mind you which would mean Daeron would have to endorse polygamy to let Daemon wed Daenerys), Daemon did not rebel. It would be 8 years before Daemon rebelled and by that point he and Rohanne had had 7 kings, and Daenerys and her husband had had several of their own

- Bittersteel and Bloodraven were fighting over the right of the Targaryens vs the Blackfyres to rule, not Shiera Seastar. They might have personally hated each other because they both loved her, but they were fighting because Bloodraven wanted the Targaryens to rule, and Bittersteel wanted the Blackfyres to rule

- As far as we know, Westoros paid no price in corpses when Duncan wed Jenny. Lyonel Baratheon declared independence due to the slight, he did not rebel. The only battle we ever know of that was fought because of Duncan wedding Jenny is a single combat duel between Ser Duncan the Tall and Lyonel to settle the matter and Duncan did not kill Lyonel when he defeated him. So no one died.

- All 3 of the sons of Aegon V did not marry for love seeing as the youngest one was gay and never married.

- Aegon V did not choose his queen by following his heart. He had already been married to Betha Blackwood 13 years before he was ever king.

 

So while yes "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" is in the books, you shouldn't be taking it at face value when every example Barristan compares it to is not actually what happened.