KGs in TOJ?

[UnViserion]

 
actually it does explain their continued presence there . Dayne and Whent are there protecting Rhaegar's second son (the third in line to the throne) Aegon is in Kings Landing so he has plenty of protection. 
Hightower stays initially because that is the only way he can get Rhaegar to go back to Kings Landing and then he stays after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are killed because he's doing his duty as Lord Commander and protecting the King. It's really that simple . 

But Jon wasn't a king at that time. You don't divert three of the seven KG away from the king and top two heirs (possibly 3 if you count Viserys) to protect the 3rd or 4th best claim. You work to protect the current King (or follow his orders)

If that's really what Rhaegar did to rationalize his decision it is very disrespectful and extremely dangerous to his first family.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I was unaware that the KNP recognized any notion of "legal king" removal. Interesting.

Dragon king fearin good ol boys and gals might not appreciate that kind of subversive notion. LOL.

Anyways, interesting topic, please continue.

I'm a bit hurt you'd put me In that category. We've had a lot of good and fruitful discussions about legitimacy, and when it is and is not legitimate to remove despots.

i certaibly don't put you in the "super snowflake jon starkgaryen" category.

[MtnLion]

 

Why if Aegon was alive, Viserys would not die? A baby Aegon would not change that much I guess. 

I think Dany was just simply thinking this in her mind: King Aegon? oh, yeah, if he did not die, then he would be king now. King Aegon VI. 

Not "now", but "would have been Aegon VI". 

[MtnLion]

But Jon wasn't a king at that time. You don't divert three of the seven KG away from the king and top two heirs (possibly 3 if you count Viserys) to protect the 3rd or 4th best claim. You work to protect the current King (or follow his orders)

If that's really what Rhaegar did to rationalize his decision it is very disrespectful and extremely dangerous to his first family.

A coronation is not necessary to recognize a king. 

 

Hmm, so you think that Rhaegar is doing this?  No, the three Kingsguard are evaluating the recent news of events:  Aerys is dead, Rhaegar would be next also dead, Aegon would be next also dead, this legitimate child (we know as Jon) is next.  It is the Kingsguard's duty to protect this child with their life, it is their vow.  Hightower says so, too: 

 

The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect the King) because (explained) we swore a vow (to protect our king's life with our own).

 

Arthur Dayne amplifies the comment, with "then or now", which is King Aerys then, and King Jon now.

[WhitewolfStark]

 

People keep saying this shit, but its clearly not true. The KG outright state their support for Aerys during their conversation with Ned. If they weren't far away from KL at the time of the Sack, Aerys would still sit the throne...

 

This belief comes from a refusal to accept the possibility that the KG remained at ToJ because Rhaegar and Lyanna married, making a legitimate Jon heir to the Iron Crown, and the King that they were guarding once the Sack had happened.

 

And it's rather odd to consider that when being found out at the place you were hiding that when challenged with "where were you when..." that instead of answering "here" they instead say "far away" which would indicate neither close to King's Landing or the TOJ had been where they were when the Sack occurred.

 

In all likelihood, I don't see stowing away a pregnant girl in a tower that's easily torn down by two people (Howland and Eddard tear down the TOJ with their bare hands--and the power of grief and despair can only do so much to strength, so i.e. that Tower was a rickety old thing about to collapse) as something you would do for long term. Most likely they were on the move from wherever they'd been hiding during the rebellion and Lyanna started going into labor and they took shelter where they could. That it was the same tower that Rhaegar liked probably was planned, but I don't see how practical it is for Lyanna to be staying in a tower that at a given pressure could fall down around her, for over a year.

 

Perhaps it's where Rhaegar and Lyanna had their first sexual encounter before traveling on further into Dorne, which would explain the name, and where Lyanna and the KG happened to stop at so she could give birth out of the hot desert mountain pass sun. What they did in between was most likely not stay in a tower that's about to fall down around their ears but went somewhere else, because staying in a ruined about to collapse watchtower for longer than a couple of days, let alone an entire year makes very little sense.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

So the Lord Commander of the KG is going to obey an order from his dead prince instead of following the main oath of the KG to "protect the King" ? That does not seem likely. If Jon is not the King then Hightower would be heading to Dragonstone . Protecting the King supersedes all other orders and if Viserys is King then what Rhaegar ordered would mean nothing to Hightower. 

Were that the case at least some would have left earlier, since they can't have known that Jon was heir.

Since there is ambiguity about who will be king, yes, it is highly likely they would instead follow Rhaegars last wishes / orders. Maybe Hightower decided to justify it to himself by saying "well if it's a boy then I'm good". But I don't think that Arthur and Whent needed such justification.

"Luckily", jon was born male, and Aegon died, so there ended up being no conflict for them to resolve.

[OldGimletEye]

I'm a bit hurt you'd put me In that category. We've had a lot of good and fruitful discussions about legitimacy, and when it is and is not legitimate to remove despots.

i certaibly don't put you in the "super snowflake jon starkgaryen" category.

I'm sorry. My apologies. I was joking just a bit. You can call me an asshole if you like.

You're right we have had good discussions. And I know you're quite reasonable.

[Blackfish Tully]

But Jon wasn't a king at that time. You don't divert three of the seven KG away from the king and top two heirs (possibly 3 if you count Viserys) to protect the 3rd or 4th best claim. You work to protect the current King (or follow his orders)

If that's really what Rhaegar did to rationalize his decision it is very disrespectful and extremely dangerous to his first family.

 

Aegon and Aerys were in Kings Landing so they had all the protection of the walls and soldiers and Kingsguard of Kings landing while Jon was in the Tower in the middle of nowhere so there was a definite need for the protection of three KG members. 

[MtnLion]

@corbon  On Jaime's decision after slaying Aerys, he never thinks or communicates to Crakehall or Westerling (his father's men) that any decree had been made.  His father's men would not have known about any last minute decrees, but it would certainly be worth Jaime's time to relay to his father that Aerys had some sort of preference that Tywin could spite.  That and Daenerys' lack of any information (it could have been done after Rhaella and Viserys fled, and lost during the sack) still is a pretty strong indicator that it was never done.  If the decree had been made, it would most certainly have been sent to Dragonstone via raven, so that loyalists on Dragonstone would know.  We just have a complete absence of any material that suggests any such decree had been made.  Until Yandel produces a reliable source, I will continue to chalk it up as a lie. 

[Blackfish Tully]

Were that the case at least some would have left earlier, since they can't have known that Jon was heir.

Since there is ambiguity about who will be king, yes, it is highly likely they would instead follow Rhaegars last wishes / orders. Maybe Hightower decided to justify it to himself by saying "well if it's a boy then I'm good". But I don't think that Arthur and Whent needed such justification.

"Luckily", jon was born male, and Aegon died, so there ended up being no conflict for them to resolve.

 

If Jon is not legitimate the there is no ambiguity and Hightower would head to Dragonstone the moment they found out that Aerys and Aegon were dead so the fact that Hightower was still there leads to only one conclusion and that is he was following his duties and fulfilling his oath by protecting the King . If Jon is not King then Hightower is not at the tower. 

[watcher of the night]

It seems to me that people just willingly ignore the facts that do not fit their theories ...

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

This is Close to what I think, but one thing still bothers me in your last paragraph.

Jon was born very shortly before Ned arrives - Lyannas condition is pretty severe and caused by childbirth. If an infection she may have taken a few days to die, if hemmrhoging, she would have died within hours.

So The news arrives when, exactly? Is the order of events:

1. Jon born 2. All the News arrives 3. Ned arrives?

This seems like a very tight timeline and much less likely than:

1. Some news arrives (trident, Rhaella and Vis flee to DS), 2. Some other news arrives (sack), 3. Jon born, 4. Ned arrives.

Jon-as-heir explains 3-4 but doesn't explain the period between 1 and 3, which is likely lengthy, when the KG would be aware of 2 heirs ahead of (female, unborn) Jon in the succession.

Seems more likely Rhaegar just told them - stay with Lyanna and my child and keep them safe. If I die, do X (we don't know what X is since ned arrives before Lyanna was well enough to be moved).

Their mission was to protect this child, whether male or female, as they were of royal blood and needed protection. I don't think its necessary that (unborn) Jon is first in the LoS for an order from Rhaegar to protect him/her to be followed, because the KG cannot have known whether jon would be next in the LOS or somewhere else down the line until s/he was born.

 

One thing that doesn't get sufficient notice is that the ToJ is in the Dornish Marshes. That means there's a very long road from there to King's Landing so by the time the news of Rhaegar's death arrives the Sack may have already happened and in any case it's way too late for the Kingsguard to do anything.

 

Now Hightower, Whent and Dayne may be loyal to their vows but the basic fact of very slow travel and communications prevents them from actually contributing meaningfully to the events in King's Landing and that if Aerys and Aegon are caught by the rebels Lyanna's baby might be the next heir can very well be enough to keep them at their posts. Behaving somewhat sensibly in the absence of direct orders isn't oath breaking- medieval societies have very different notions of distance and travel times than anything post telegraph.

[UnViserion]

A coronation is not necessary to recognize a king. 
 
Hmm, so you think that Rhaegar is doing this?  No, the three Kingsguard are evaluating the recent news of events:  Aerys is dead, Rhaegar would be next also dead, Aegon would be next also dead, this legitimate child (we know as Jon) is next.  It is the Kingsguard's duty to protect this child with their life, it is their vow.  Hightower says so, too: 
 
[font='times new roman']The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect the King) because (explained) we swore a vow (to protect our king's life with our own).[/font]
 
[font=arial]Arthur Dayne amplifies the comment, with "[font='times new roman']then or now[/font]", which is King Aerys then, and King Jon now.[/font]

I mean it's cute the way you fill in the blanks and insist it means Jon must be a king but it still doesn't account for the fact that Jon was never a king but an heir very far down the list. If they'd been doing their jobs and protecting Aerys in KL, Aegon in KL, or Rhaegar at the trident his claim is even less important. Dumb, dumb move.

 
Aegon and Aerys were in Kings Landing so they had all the protection of the walls and soldiers and Kingsguard of Kings landing while Jon was in the Tower in the middle of nowhere so there was a definite need for the protection of three KG members. 

And why was unborn Jon out in the deserts of Dorne? When you find the answer to that you'll find the answer to how meaningless his claim is. Makes more sense that Lyanna is a hostage than 'The Whore of Stark,' second wife to Rhaegar the Dishonorable

Aerys probably wouldn't have welcomed Jon and Lyanna with open arms. Especially if Rhaegar was acting on his own initiative.

[MtnLion]

I mean it's cute the way you fill in the blanks and insist it means Jon must be a king but it still doesn't account for the fact that Jon was never a king but an heir very far down the list. If they'd been doing their jobs and protecting Aerys in KL, Aegon in KL, or Rhaegar at the trident his claim is even less important. Dumb, dumb move.

20/20 hindsight?

 

Jaime has thousands of men at arms at his disposal, which does not even count the goldcloaks which are also under his command.  But, guess what those thousands of men failed to protect Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. 

 

How is it possible that any or all of the three Kingsguard at the tower could truly have averted Rhaegar's death at the Trident?  Got some fanfic to throw in? 

[UnViserion]

They were 3 of the greatest Knights in Westeros.

You think Arthur Dayne lets Rhaegar fight Robert in single combat?

These are the same 3 ppl that fought Lyanna's brother to the death to keep him away from his nephew, Rhaegar's son. What do you think they'd do if someone was battling their Prince?

I suppose that's fanfic huh :lol:

[watcher of the night]

20/20 hindsight?

 

Jaime has thousands of men at arms at his disposal, which does not even count the goldcloaks which are also under his command.  But, guess what those thousands of men failed to protect Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. 

 

How is it possible that any or all of the three Kingsguard at the tower could truly have averted Rhaegar's death at the Trident?  Got some fanfic to throw in? 

 

Strawman argument. You know very well that it is not the lack of MAAs at Jamies command but the betrayal of Tywin that caused the death of these people.

 

They could averted it perhaps because they were amongst the best fighters in Westeros. Do you really think that using the sword of Dawn to hold a candle while Rheagar and Lyanna have joyous sex is the best way to use it?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Were that the case at least some would have left earlier, since they can't have known that Jon was heir.

Since there is ambiguity about who will be king, yes, it is highly likely they would instead follow Rhaegars last wishes / orders. Maybe Hightower decided to justify it to himself by saying "well if it's a boy then I'm good". But I don't think that Arthur and Whent needed such justification.

"Luckily", jon was born male, and Aegon died, so there ended up being no conflict for them to resolve.

If the KG only get word that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead AFTER Jon is born, then there is no issue regarding justification. Prior to the death of the royals, they KG are following legit orders from the crown prince (as the royals, specifically King Aerys, would be otherwise covered by other KG). After the death of the royals -- by the time they learn of these deaths -- they are guarding the rightful King. No other "justification" is ever needed.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

If the KG only get word that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead AFTER Jon is born, then there is no issue regarding justification. Prior to the death of the royals, they KG are following legit orders from the crown prince (as the royals, specifically King Aerys, would be otherwise covered by other KG). After the death of the royals -- by the time they learn of these deaths -- they are guarding the rightful King. No other "justification" is ever needed.

I've addressed this before - That would be a very tight timeline indeed. So that is to say it's possible, but its not the most likely or logical scenario. Lyannas condition indicates that only a few hours to maybe a few days had passed since Jon was born.

Its far more likely they had no news, or had the news for a while prior to Jons birth. The reason they stayed during this time is far simpler - they were protecting one of the (potential) Targaryen heirs, under Rhaegars orders, but also because it didn't conflict with any direct order from Aerys and because they thought it was the right thing to do.

[Blackfish Tully]

They were 3 of the greatest Knights in Westeros.

You think Arthur Dayne lets Rhaegar fight Robert in single combat?

These are the same 3 ppl that fought Lyanna's brother to the death to keep him away from his nephew, Rhaegar's son. What do you think they'd do if someone was battling their Prince?

I suppose that's fanfic huh :lol:

 

Barristan was just as great a Knight as Dayne  but he could not stop Rhaegar from fighting Robert so how would Dayne? Rhaegar is the Crown prince so if he wants to fight Robert then nobody can stop him.

[UnViserion]

 

Barristan was just as great a Knight as Dayne  but he could not stop Rhaegar from fighting Robert so how would Dayne? Rhaegar is the Crown prince so if he wants to fight Robert then nobody can stop him.

 

Arthur Dayne PWNs Barristan.  

 

Judging from what we saw at the ToJ, neither he, Whent, or Hightower would have ever switched sides. They were loyal to the Targaryens, not the Iron Throne.