Merging Story Lines

[dornishdame]

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

If BR , the Mormont women and Illyrio can be taken as fair examples of this I would be inclined to agree with you.

I am not sure there is a fail-safe way of understanding Westerosi genetics, but there are certainly multiple instances where magic seems to travel through the female line - and historically the Starks appear to have had a tendency, when killing off rival kings, to put all sons to the sword and bring the daughter into the Stark line through marriage. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

I hate this Dame.   But it does make sense.   I still hope BR is misunderstood.   Folks make quite a bit about BR not owning up to being the 3EC when Bran meets him and asks.  It's entirely probable that BR doesn't have the knowledge or power many assume he does.  Perhaps he just doesn't understand that the 3EC is the form he take in dreams.  Perhaps the 3EC something completely separate from BR.  I read the killing of Aenys as a personal sacrifice BR made.   Dishonorable on all public accounts to be sure, but still done with the best intentions.   If BR is as committed to this greenseer thing as he was to stopping the Blackfyres (like he has a choice now that he's part tree) there is a good chance that he will do hard things in seeing it through.   I can't see any reason for BR to sidestep the 3EC or comprehend Bran's power (yet).   BR is among the most fascinating characters in this tale of many fascinating characters. 

There is certainly something strange about the three-eyed crow thing.  But I certainly agree that Bloodraven is fascinating - I rank him the single most intriguing character I have met thus far.  Aenys Blackfyre - I feel that Bloodraven was as obsessed by the Blackfyres as Cersei is by Tyrion and the Valonqar prophecy, and Robert's hatred for Rhaegar, for example. 

Bloodraven certainly viewed the murder of Aenys Blackfyre as something that had to be done for the good of the realm. This idea - that of one man's honor being nothing to the security of the realm - is one that parallels with Jon. 

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him." Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. "Look for me on the first day of the full moon."

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. (Jon VIII in Dance).

Bloodraven has the single-minded sense of purpose of Jon and Rhaegar; whatever side he is on, I am sure he will do everything he can for that side. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

You know, I always assumed Euron learned about Dany from the warlocks.   Hadn't ever occurred to me that they would be part of the plot.  That's downright juicy.  

 If Bloodraven is the most intriguing character in the series for me, I have to rank Euron pretty high too.  We see throughout the series that sailors pick up and drop off information at the various ports they visit. At least one example is:

"Daenela," the proprietor said loudly. "That was her name. The Mad King's daughter, I mean, not Baelor's bloody wife."

"Daenerys," Davos said. "She was named for the Daenerys who wed the Prince of Dorne during the reign of Daeron the Second. I don't know what became of her."

"I do," said the man who'd started all the talk of dragons, a Braavosi oarsman in a somber woolen jack. "When we were down to Pentos we moored beside a trader called the Sloe-Eyed Maid, and I got to drinking with her captain's steward. He told me a pretty tale about some slip of a girl who come aboard in Qarth, to try and book passage back to Westeros for her and three dragons. Silver hair she had, and purple eyes. 'I took her to the captain my own self,' this steward swore to me, 'but he wasn't having none of that. There's more profit in cloves and saffron, he tells me, and spices won't set fire to your sails.' " (Davos II in Dance)

The man is from Braavos, and is sitting in an inn in White Harbor; he speaks of Qarth and Pentos. It isn't difficult to see someone travelling as much as Euron does, finding out information in such away. That said, if he had some basic information on Daenerys picked up in Volantis, or Qarth, for example, that was then added to by the eye-witness accounts of the warlocks he encountered, it could have impacted on the decisions he took. When did he decide to return to the Iron Islands? When did he approach the Faceless Men?

Hopefully Winds will give us more information on Euron and Bloodraven, and how they fit in to the story!

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Why Dame?   How do these things correspond? Why is the black smoke significant?   Honestly I only read these passages to give some indication of Mel's 1) ability to see BR & Bran and 2) offer some detail on Mel's magic and 3) offer some background on Mel.   I'm wide open, lay it on me.    

I'm not sure at all how these things connect, or even if they do!! The idea of blood along with black smoke made me wonder again at Melisandre's powers.  I have no theories on this, merely questions!

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

 I thought I figured something out recently.    The whole AA story is smoke and mirrors.   A long convoluted tale that misleads the reader into thinking the sword and all it's forging are the point.    It's not.   Nissa Nissa's willing sacrifice is the point.   It's not about love, it's about willing sacrifice.    So I understand about trying to separate fact (right) from myth in all these tales within a tale.  I like this idea of yours that a defensive or protective form of magic may be the Stark superpower.   It would have been right under our nose all along.   It has driven me nuts since I first read the Stark tale as related in AWOIAF.   First thought I had was hmph, these guys stole everyone else's power?  I think not.   The Stark direwolf sigil is where I've always looked for their power, trying to connect these seemingly powerless Starks with the magic wolves and their words, Winter is coming.   Still I imagine all that came much later where their magic had to be innate.  I like the premise of protective powers.    This is very good.

Interesting idea!! I have a weird idea regarding the idea of Azor Ahai that Azor Ahai doesn't actually exist, just that in a second long night there will be someone or someones that fulfill the same role, and that Jon will be the dragon awoken from stone to be reborn as the Prince that was Promised (rather than TPTWP/AA doing it) then go on to be one of those fulfilling the Azor Ahai role. It was a passing thought I have held on to, and one that will probably turn out to be false! 

I will extend your theory re Nissa Nissa from being a willing sacrifice to be a willing blood sacrifice. Perhaps that is what is significant about the story?

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

 I totally get Doran's quiet, careful passion.   I expect a great deal of that has been channeled into preparation.  Doran isn't rash or hot tempered.   He is an even, thoughtful guy playing a very long game here.   I think if anyone would have the ability to understand what really happened with Quentyn it is Doran.  At any rate, I hope Arienne has matured a whole lot since Dance.   She seems more cautious in the sample chapter so we shall see if she's worthy or not.  I would still expect Doran to want to inspect Aegon for himself. 

I think Arianne has matured a lot since she and Doran cleared the air.  I have said numerous times that Ned and Cat should have had an honest, no-holds-barred conversation about Jon and the truth of his parentage years ago; I think the same thing is true of Doran and Arianne. I also think that separating Arianne from Tyene, Obara and Nym was a good idea.  She needs to start to think for herself, and around them - particularly Tyene - I am not entirely sure that was the case. 

Doran will understand, possibly, with regards to Quentyn; the rest of Dorne, on the other hand...........That said, I think hearing of Quentyn's death and reflecting on how he could have done things differently may be the death of Doran. 

Doran may prefer to inspect Aegon for himself, but I doubt he will be given the chance to do so. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

I once began a short lived topic addressing how Jon would get into the crypts at Winterfell.    I think the 4th response I received was perfect and I called it a day after that.   So you see Jon (in Ghost) in the crypts?  This dream seems to warn him off the crypts and  leaves him believing he has no place among the dead Starks--it doesn't offer him anything else.    Do you think Jon will find some tangible proof of his identity?  

In my head at the moment: I think that - as Ghost - Jon will dream yet again of the Winterfell crypts, and that this time the dream will not be interrupted.  Jon will reach Lyanna's statue and speak to either Lyanna/Ned or both about where he comes from.  I think the thing with the crypts is that Jon believes it isn't his place......and yet he is forced to go on. At least, that is the case with the original crypt dream:

Jon Snow laughed with him. Afterward they sat on the frozen ground, huddled in their cloaks with Ghost between them. Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now. Before long he found himself talking of Winterfell.

"Sometimes I dream about it," he said. "I'm walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don't even know who I'm looking for. Most nights it's my father, but sometimes it's Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. (Jon IV in Thrones)

The sometimes I dream about it suggests that this is a recurring dream Jon has.  I do wonder if the bit where he searches for people but cannot find them is reflective of the idea that, later in the story, we have a situation where there may be no Stark in Winterfell? Not sure. The fact he has these dreams at all is, I think, indicative of there being something significant to Jon residing in the Winterfell crypts. 

The dreams evolve throughout the series, and the next time we hear mention of the Winterfell crypts in Jon's dream it has changed slightly:

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy. (Jon VII in Thrones)

I wonder if this is indicative of the rise of the dead during the war to come? Or is it a sign that the dead bodies in the crypt will literally rise?

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .

The cell was dark, the bed hard beneath him. His own bed, he remembered, his own bed in his steward's cell beneath the Old Bear's chambers. By rights it should have brought him sweeter dreams. Even beneath the furs, he was cold. Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost . . . Where are you? Was he dead as well, was that what his dream had meant, the bloody wolf in the crypts? But the wolf in the dream had been grey, not white. Grey, like Bran's wolf. Had the Thenns hunted him down and killed him after Queenscrown? If so, Bran was lost to him for good and all. (Jon VIII in Storm)

For the first time, there is mention of the idea Jon doesn't belong there. That is different from the initial, recurring dream in which Jon screams that it isn't his place but he is still forced to descend regardless. Then, there is mention of a direwolf that sounds so like Summer.  So, perhaps my thinking is wrong and Bran is involved in Jon's dream in the crypts in Winds when he finds out what is pulling him there? Not sure!!

And I don't know if he will find any proof as such. Perhaps he will meet Lyanna in his dream and then visit Winterfell and find something there? I don't know!!!

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

As I open up to the possibility that Euron may actually be the foil for Bran I'm hoping Darkstar isn't a foil for House Dayne or Edric and Allyria.   As we lose some truly  great antagonists in Roose, Ramsay, Cersei and Lord Walder the tale nearly demands even more formidable opponents for the remaining protagonists.    I would expect everyone agrees that Euron's dark role will expand, but he can't be the bad guy for everyone.    Darkstar may be salvageable as a decent bad guy and perhaps some of the Sand Snakes.    Beyond that I think I need to meet more characters.   And we still have frickin' Little Finger, that dastardly bugger.    Speaking of potential bad guys, I'm really looking forward to seeing Varys next. Where will he turn up?  Kings Landing, Pentos, Mereen or some place no one has even imagined yet.   Sinve I'm in Dance I notice an awful lot of talk and fear of The Weeper.    Maybe he's got some mad evil skill or power to make utter mayhem north of The Wall?  

So many of the characters you mention are involved in the Game of Thrones rather than the War for the Dawn; I think the latter is where we will meet new antagonists. I do think Walder Frey and the others you mention will die in Winds, but in many cases - i.e. Cersei - it will be towards the end of the book. 

I think the Weeper's main skill is experience and ability to be a guerrilla force against the Night's Watch. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Yes I was rather expecting that, but I do think that the dragon riders will command something from Dany.   Trust? Loyalty? Fondness?  Fear? Relief? She's never so much as tried to encourage anyone to bond with them.   I think she will be jealous a little bit.  

I think a lot depends on who the other dragon riders are, to be honest. I doubt Euron would look to Daenerys for approval or for any sort of connection. I think it would be more about 'hey, look what I can do - I am, at the very least, your equal - and I have claimed your dragon for mine own even though I have no Targaryen/Valyrian blood'. Using his being a dragon rider against her, mostly. 

Daenerys will be jealous, yes. I think that she will be hurt that one of her children has connected with someone that isn't her. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

 Yes, I believe I've read that theory.    bemused is always so much fun to read.  Even if Thorne was the instigator, I still have a really hard time listening to this worry wart Marsh actually find the nerve to stab anyone.  

I think none of them wanted to stab Jon; I think they felt he had left them with no choice. The Pink Letter and its aftermath demonstrated that Jon has broken his NW vow. I don't agree with what they did, nor do I think Jon deserved what happened to him, but I think that Bowen and the others felt that they had no other choice and - possibly - a bigger protector than Bowen Marsh. That said, what they did was stupid; they did not consider how outnumbered they were by the wildlings, who swore their oath to Jon.

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Makes complete sense to me.  

 Makes it funnier and funnier if, after all his antagonisms with Jon, Alliser Thorne discovered that Jon was actually a Targaryen!!!

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

It does absolutely.   As I said, it was the golden skull that tricked me!  

I know! It is almost like the Azor Ahai stuff referenced above.  I find that with so many things in ASOIAF, it takes stepping back and thinking twice - or even thrice!! - about something before you realize what the dickens is going on! As I said, for so long I just assumed Illyrio had Blackfyre without considering why that was the case. 

On 3/31/2016 at 4:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Think we'll ever see Hot Pie again?

Yes. He is in the Riverlands, where I think we will go again. In fact, I think Arya will meet him again on her return to Westeros. 

On 3/31/2016 at 9:28 AM, bemused said:

I'm here where I shouldn't be right now. 

I had a few things I wanted to contribute, but It's late and I'm exhausted, so I'll just mention one..

Have you given thought to the original Ice ? I haven't pursued the swords much, but I know that some speculate that it might be in the WF crypts. I don't know what, in particular, that's founded on, or if it just seems reasonable, but I had this marked out for something else...

(I think Theon's sensitivity to the supernatural traces back to his true dream of the feast of the dead before the sack of WF, and that dream was surely influenced by Bloodraven, since it showed him deaths he could not have heard of. Following the dream...)

Come dawn, he dressed and went outside, to walk along the outer walls.A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes.  ... ... The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine. ... 

Why is "Stark's sword" included here ? No Stark sword is visible, and Ned's sword went with him to King's Landing.No sword figured in the previous night's dream. ... But what if we just moved the position of the apostrophe - Starks' wood, Starks' castle, Starks' sword , Starks' gods. This is their place not mine. ... Now the "their" refers to Starks instead of or, as well as the wood, castle, sword, and gods.. and the sentiment, "This is their place, not mine", is one that has usually been repeated, in various ways, in reference to being in the crypts.

Maybe this has already been well covered in sword theory, but FWIW...

I have never, ever considered this...........and am not wondering why that is the case. The bit you have highlighted:

This is their place, not mine. (Theon V in Clash) 

It sounds sooooooooo much like part of the Jon dream I have referenced above. This, combined with elements of Jaime's weirwood dream in Storm makes me wonder if, perhaps, Jon's crypt dream, Theon's feast of the dead dream, and Jaime's weirwood dream, are all related. 

As for Ice, it makes me think if there is some part of memorial of the original Ice that exists at Winterfell? But surely we would have heard something to that from one of the Starks?  It is definitely thought-provoking!

[Curled Finger]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 1:28 AM, bemused said:

I'm here where I shouldn't be right now. 

I had a few things I wanted to contribute, but It's late and I'm exhausted, so I'll just mention one..

Have you given thought to the original Ice ? I haven't pursued the swords much, but I know that some speculate that it might be in the WF crypts. I don't know what, in particular, that's founded on, or if it just seems reasonable, but I had this marked out for something else...

(I think Theon's sensitivity to the supernatural traces back to his true dream of the feast of the dead before the sack of WF, and that dream was surely influenced by Bloodraven, since it showed him deaths he could not have heard of. Following the dream...)

Come dawn, he dressed and went outside, to walk along the outer walls.A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes.  ... ... The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine. ... 

Why is "Stark's sword" included here ? No Stark sword is visible, and Ned's sword went with him to King's Landing.No sword figured in the previous night's dream. ... But what if we just moved the position of the apostrophe - Starks' wood, Starks' castle, Starks' sword , Starks' gods. This is their place not mine. ... Now the "their" refers to Starks instead of or, as well as the wood, castle, sword, and gods.. and the sentiment, "This is their place, not mine", is one that has usually been repeated, in various ways, in reference to being in the crypts.

Maybe this has already been well covered in sword theory, but FWIW...

Hi bemused--always good to hear from you.  Yes, I've done a little bit of research on ancestral Ice.   The problem with the original Ice is there is precious little information and original Lady Forlorn is fraught with bad information.   I read a good deal of external material, mostly fan theory and blogs just to get a handle on things I don't quite understand.   I went looking for a blog that I naturally can't find now that I need it...still in that blog was a description of the Other's swords.  This is compared to ancestral Ice as well as Dawn. This will drive me nuts so I have to find it now.   The inference I made was that Ice and Dawn were made of the same material (heart of a meteor) as Ice I is described as having a similar look.   I'm sure this is a direct quote from the books or I would have blown it off rather than filed it.   This connection is also why I can't just accept honor or courtesy as Ned's reasons for returning Dawn.   Though I agree Ned was doing the right and honorable thing, it seemed very rushed and urgent to me.  And it could be nothing.   My own little pet theory is that Ice 1 is the sword TLH used at the end of his quest.  

I had to start my reread of Dance all over again, so much is fresh in mind.   As you know, I listen to the audiobooks and of course never picked up on Theon's mention of Stark's swords. And I can just picture myself reading it as Stark's words, which is precisely what I saw when I 1st read your quote.   Your punctuation change really does put a spin on the statement. 

Dame and I have been bandying about over the Stark's original magic.    Would love to hear you weigh in on this.  Boiled down after some discussion about Bran the Builder--architect extraordinaire, Dame's come up with a pretty cool idea that perhaps the Starks have some protective or defense power that just hasn't been explained.   

Love to hear whatever you have to say about any of it.   Thanks for the Theon quote and new way of looking at the statement.  The crypts are fascinating and the dreams just deepen the mystery.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I am not sure there is a fail-safe way of understanding Westerosi genetics, but there are certainly multiple instances where magic seems to travel through the female line - and historically the Starks appear to have had a tendency, when killing off rival kings, to put all sons to the sword and bring the daughter into the Stark line through marriage.     I was just listening to Jamie's exchanges with Bracken & Blackwood earlier.   Blackwood is awfully fond of his girl.  He offers up any of his sons except the heir.   Bracken really tried to get Jamie to take that little girl.   

There is certainly something strange about the three-eyed crow thing.  But I certainly agree that Bloodraven is fascinating - I rank him the single most intriguing character I have met thus far.  Aenys Blackfyre - I feel that Bloodraven was as obsessed by the Blackfyres as Cersei is by Tyrion and the Valonqar prophecy, and Robert's hatred for Rhaegar, for example. 

Bloodraven certainly viewed the murder of Aenys Blackfyre as something that had to be done for the good of the realm. This idea - that of one man's honor being nothing to the security of the realm - is one that parallels with Jon. 

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him." Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. "Look for me on the first day of the full moon."

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. (Jon VIII in Dance).    Very nice parallel here, Dame.

Bloodraven has the single-minded sense of purpose of Jon and Rhaegar; whatever side he is on, I am sure he will do everything he can for that side. 

 If Bloodraven is the most intriguing character in the series for me, I have to rank Euron pretty high too.  We see throughout the series that sailors pick up and drop off information at the various ports they visit. At least one example is:      Right, they do seem to be the roving reporters, don't they?   

The man is from Braavos, and is sitting in an inn in White Harbor; he speaks of Qarth and Pentos. It isn't difficult to see someone travelling as much as Euron does, finding out information in such away. That said, if he had some basic information on Daenerys picked up in Volantis, or Qarth, for example, that was then added to by the eye-witness accounts of the warlocks he encountered, it could have impacted on the decisions he took. When did he decide to return to the Iron Islands? When did he approach the Faceless Men?   If my timeline is right, which is a crap shoot, I think Euron has been gone for 3 years.  That's not long enough for him to go everywhere he claims to have gone since it takes 8 days to get from the II to a place as close as Sea Dragon Point.  That topic I was telling you about offered astral travel up.   If Euron is one of the 4 very special seers in the tale it actually makes a lot of sense to me.    However, he sure has amassed a lot of stuff and people.  There is something here we just don't know yet.

Hopefully Winds will give us more information on Euron and Bloodraven, and how they fit in to the story!   Oh please get on with it already!!!

I'm not sure at all how these things connect, or even if they do!! The idea of blood along with black smoke made me wonder again at Melisandre's powers.  I have no theories on this, merely questions!      I'm sorry, but that made me smile.   

Interesting idea!! I have a weird idea regarding the idea of Azor Ahai that Azor Ahai doesn't actually exist, just that in a second long night there will be someone or someones that fulfill the same role, and that Jon will be the dragon awoken from stone to be reborn as the Prince that was Promised (rather than TPTWP/AA doing it) then go on to be one of those fulfilling the Azor Ahai role. It was a passing thought I have held on to, and one that will probably turn out to be false!    Ooooh, I like that!   And I really like it that you can Jon Jon fulfilling TPTWP role, too.   I have a friend who thinks different people will fulfill different parts of each prophesy.    It's all pretty good particularly when GRRM himself warns us not to take the prophesy too literally.  

I will extend your theory re Nissa Nissa from being a willing sacrifice to be a willing blood sacrifice. Perhaps that is what is significant about the story?   Dame, I think you're right on here, too.   A willing blood sacrifice.   Someone whose magic blood can activate the sword and she gives it for the cause.   That GRRM is pretty tricky about stuff.    I've heard the story about the old men going out to hunt at least once today when Jon and Alys speak of Karstark.   My spidey senses were screaming by the end of the conversation, "The Old Men become Others!!!"   Ok, maybe not, but there is something important in the story of the old northern men going out to hunt--some are found dead and some are never found at all.   Of course they could become wights or be eaten by bears, but the story is repeated.    It means something.   This is what it's like with these prophesies, recurring dreams or comments characters make.   I pay attention when a story is told more than once or a phrase is repeated.  

I think Arianne has matured a lot since she and Doran cleared the air.  I have said numerous times that Ned and Cat should have had an honest, no-holds-barred conversation about Jon and the truth of his parentage years ago; I think the same thing is true of Doran and Arianne. I also think that separating Arianne from Tyene, Obara and Nym was a good idea.  She needs to start to think for herself, and around them - particularly Tyene - I am not entirely sure that was the case.    I heard that chapter just today, too. I think Areo Hotah makes this speculation or he's actually talking to Doran about it.   One thing that struck me earlier in the chapter is how they are setting Darkstar up.   One of them even says, "fine, Darkstar did it" or something very close to that.   

Doran will understand, possibly, with regards to Quentyn; the rest of Dorne, on the other hand...........That said, I think hearing of Quentyn's death and reflecting on how he could have done things differently may be the death of Doran.    Wouldn't that throw a wrench in everyone's plans for Aegon to marry Arienne.    I love Doran, he's great.   It will suck to lose him.  

Doran may prefer to inspect Aegon for himself, but I doubt he will be given the chance to do so. 

In my head at the moment: I think that - as Ghost - Jon will dream yet again of the Winterfell crypts, and that this time the dream will not be interrupted.  Jon will reach Lyanna's statue and speak to either Lyanna/Ned or both about where he comes from.  I think the thing with the crypts is that Jon believes it isn't his place......and yet he is forced to go on. At least, that is the case with the original crypt dream:  I think you've tried to tell me this a couple of times.   It is beginning to manifest in my mind.    Not a warg dream, this is the time that Jon will exist in Ghost!   Would Lyanna (only as opposed to someone Jon actually knows) be able to speak to Jon in a dream?   Jamie and Theon seem to interact with the people in their dreams.  This opens up endless possibility.   I hadn't considered Jon doing much independently during his time in Ghost.   I mean, surely he will investigate or project, maybe warg something else, but what I figured was that he would be wide open to BR & Bran without all that noisy life and living going on.  If he could speak with ghosts that could give him knowledge on par with Bran.   Wow. 

The sometimes I dream about it suggests that this is a recurring dream Jon has.  I do wonder if the bit where he searches for people but cannot find them is reflective of the idea that, later in the story, we have a situation where there may be no Stark in Winterfell? Not sure. The fact he has these dreams at all is, I think, indicative of there being something significant to Jon residing in the Winterfell crypts.   Oh I am positive it means that as much as everything else.  I've long held that the dream is supposed to tell Jon that Bran and Rickon survived.  I am a voracious reader.   I have never, in my 4 million years of reading ever read a story that speaks to so many different people in so many different ways.

The dreams evolve throughout the series, and the next time we hear mention of the Winterfell crypts in Jon's dream it has changed slightly:

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy. (Jon VII in Thrones)

I wonder if this is indicative of the rise of the dead during the war to come? Or is it a sign that the dead bodies in the crypt will literally rise?  Or both!!

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .  Why would he be limping?  And this depiction of Summer is disturbing.

The cell was dark, the bed hard beneath him. His own bed, he remembered, his own bed in his steward's cell beneath the Old Bear's chambers. By rights it should have brought him sweeter dreams. Even beneath the furs, he was cold. Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost . . . Where are you? Was he dead as well, was that what his dream had meant, the bloody wolf in the crypts? But the wolf in the dream had been grey, not white. Grey, like Bran's wolf. Had the Thenns hunted him down and killed him after Queenscrown? If so, Bran was lost to him for good and all. (Jon VIII in Storm)

For the first time, there is mention of the idea Jon doesn't belong there. That is different from the initial, recurring dream in which Jon screams that it isn't his place but he is still forced to descend regardless. Then, there is mention of a direwolf that sounds so like Summer.  So, perhaps my thinking is wrong and Bran is involved in Jon's dream in the crypts in Winds when he finds out what is pulling him there? Not sure!!  If Summer is in Jon's dream, not Ghost or Lady or Grey Wolf it has to be symbolic of Bran's presence.  

And I don't know if he will find any proof as such. Perhaps he will meet Lyanna in his dream and then visit Winterfell and find something there? I don't know!!!  You are so careful, Dame.   Give it up, what could he find?  

So many of the characters you mention are involved in the Game of Thrones rather than the War for the Dawn; I think the latter is where we will meet new antagonists. I do think Walder Frey and the others you mention will die in Winds, but in many cases - i.e. Cersei - it will be towards the end of the book.   I clearly wasn't ready to let go of Craster.   Is there a worse guy with a similar set up just waiting?   Do you think there is anything to the Nights King?  When I think about this guy I expect the original guy, undead, to be wandering about or perhaps waiting to be loosed.   Then again, perhaps his story, told several times, is to be some character in our story to be made into his likeness.   Barbrey Dustin? 

I think the Weeper's main skill is experience and ability to be a guerrilla force against the Night's Watch. But he's got such a good name for evil bad wicked in the North.

I think a lot depends on who the other dragon riders are, to be honest. I doubt Euron would look to Daenerys for approval or for any sort of connection. I think it would be more about 'hey, look what I can do - I am, at the very least, your equal - and I have claimed your dragon for mine own even though I have no Targaryen/Valyrian blood'. Using his being a dragon rider against her, mostly. 

Daenerys will be jealous, yes. I think that she will be hurt that one of her children has connected with someone that isn't her.   She is a lot more enjoyable to listen to now than she was for many listens.   But she can be a jerk when it suits her mood.   I'm still trying to figure out why she even took Quentyn to see the dragons. 

I think none of them wanted to stab Jon; I think they felt he had left them with no choice. The Pink Letter and its aftermath demonstrated that Jon has broken his NW vow. I don't agree with what they did, nor do I think Jon deserved what happened to him, but I think that Bowen and the others felt that they had no other choice and - possibly - a bigger protector than Bowen Marsh. That said, what they did was stupid; they did not consider how outnumbered they were by the wildlings, who swore their oath to Jon.  I am listening to Marsh tell Jon Snow to allow Tormund's group in is nothing less than treason just now.    No matter what Jon does Marsh is unhappy.  

 Makes it funnier and funnier if, after all his antagonisms with Jon, Alliser Thorne discovered that Jon was actually a Targaryen!!!  Hehehehe

I know! It is almost like the Azor Ahai stuff referenced above.  I find that with so many things in ASOIAF, it takes stepping back and thinking twice - or even thrice!! - about something before you realize what the dickens is going on! As I said, for so long I just assumed Illyrio had Blackfyre without considering why that was the case.   The story is different for each of us.  It is it's own magic that way.  For someone who isn't a sword nut, that is a pretty auspicious thing to catch, m'lady.   

Yes. He is in the Riverlands, where I think we will go again. In fact, I think Arya will meet him again on her return to Westeros.    Get the band together! 

I have never, ever considered this...........and am not wondering why that is the case. The bit you have highlighted:

This is their place, not mine. (Theon V in Clash) 

It sounds sooooooooo much like part of the Jon dream I have referenced above. This, combined with elements of Jaime's weirwood dream in Storm makes me wonder if, perhaps, Jon's crypt dream, Theon's feast of the dead dream, and Jaime's weirwood dream, are all related. It sure does, doesn't it?  

As for Ice, it makes me think if there is some part of memorial of the original Ice that exists at Winterfell? But surely we would have heard something to that from one of the Starks?  It is definitely thought-provoking!   I'm not so sure we would have heard anything other than A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell.   It's possible Ned didn't have all the info because he wasn't supposed to be the Stark in Winterfell and there was no time to prepare him.    I am not even sure Ned had more than what we have.  Tyrion borrowed tomes from the Winterfell library.    We can hope for intel there or wait to see what Bran and the rest of the kids can put together.   If Ice 1 wasn't destroyed (however, use of the word "lost" is a dead giveaway we will never ever see this item) why wouldn't it be in the crypts?   

 

[dornishdame]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I was just listening to Jamie's exchanges with Bracken & Blackwood earlier.   Blackwood is awfully fond of his girl.  He offers up any of his sons except the heir.   Bracken really tried to get Jamie to take that little girl.   

Given the number of sons he has - and remember, not all of them can inherit - it makes more sense to give a son as hostage.  Tytos has only one daughter, making her all the more precious to him, and that is why Bracken is so desperate to persuade Jaime.  He wants to hurt Tytos Blackwood. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Very nice parallel here, Dame.

I've said it before, and I will say it again - a lot of parallels/links between Jon and Bloodraven. Not until I was writing my last post, however, that I started to think of how Rhaegar fits in too with the single-mindedness and sense of purpose.  Maybe that is something I need to think about in more detail.

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If my timeline is right, which is a crap shoot, I think Euron has been gone for 3 years.  That's not long enough for him to go everywhere he claims to have gone since it takes 8 days to get from the II to a place as close as Sea Dragon Point.  That topic I was telling you about offered astral travel up.   If Euron is one of the 4 very special seers in the tale it actually makes a lot of sense to me.    However, he sure has amassed a lot of stuff and people.  There is something here we just don't know yet.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how much of what Euron says can be believed.  And with his crew being mute, it is hard for them to contradict him. He has to have gone to Braavos, as he hired the Faceless Men (something I assume would require the person taking out the contract to do in person); he also picked up the Qartheen warlocks, so I would guess he has reached there. Beyond that, who knows!

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ooooh, I like that!   And I really like it that you can Jon Jon fulfilling TPTWP role, too.   I have a friend who thinks different people will fulfill different parts of each prophesy.    It's all pretty good particularly when GRRM himself warns us not to take the prophesy too literally.  

Absolutely - and I don't reject the idea that different people will fulfill different parts of the prophecy. A lot of problems can arise even from translation. 

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." (Sam IV in Feast)

The Ghost of High Heart says that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella; I tend to think that is where we have to look. But I think Daenerys alone is too easy an answer; we are looking for TPTWP to awake dragons from stone, but I think Jon, as TPTWP, will himself be the dragon awoken from stone. If we look at the Dunk and Egg tales and the dreams of Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre, in both cases they dream of a literal dragon. The dreams are prophetic and do come true, only there are no literal dragons, only Targaryens.  That is, in part, why I think the prophecy relates to the birth of a Targaryen from stone rather than a literal dragon. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dame, I think you're right on here, too.   A willing blood sacrifice.   Someone whose magic blood can activate the sword and she gives it for the cause.   That GRRM is pretty tricky about stuff.    I've heard the story about the old men going out to hunt at least once today when Jon and Alys speak of Karstark.   My spidey senses were screaming by the end of the conversation, "The Old Men become Others!!!"   Ok, maybe not, but there is something important in the story of the old northern men going out to hunt--some are found dead and some are never found at all.   Of course they could become wights or be eaten by bears, but the story is repeated.    It means something.   This is what it's like with these prophesies, recurring dreams or comments characters make.   I pay attention when a story is told more than once or a phrase is repeated.  

I wonder if we could count the blood magic Daenerys unwitting uses at the end of Thrones to birth the dragons as a willing blood sacrifice given that she walks into the pyre? It could fit into the theory that the dragons are lightbringer in this long night. I'm not entirely sure of that one, but I like the idea that perhaps the three heads of the dragon, whomever they are, could each fulfill parts of different prophecies. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I heard that chapter just today, too. I think Areo Hotah makes this speculation or he's actually talking to Doran about it.   One thing that struck me earlier in the chapter is how they are setting Darkstar up.   One of them even says, "fine, Darkstar did it" or something very close to that.   

I think Doran sees this as a win-win situation.  Darkstar is a dangerous man; if he kills Balon Swann then it only goes to back up what Doran said, and to highlight how dangerous Darkstar is, but if Darkstar is slain in combat, then Doran has rid himself of a dangerous man, and Cersei via Balon Swann has killed the fall guy who is now dead and therefore unable to contradict Doran. 

We know little of why Darkstar is considered dangerous beyond his unpredictability and use of violence. We also know there is some sort of attraction between him and Arianne; perhaps therein also lies some explanation for Doran wanting him out of the way. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think you've tried to tell me this a couple of times.   It is beginning to manifest in my mind.    Not a warg dream, this is the time that Jon will exist in Ghost!   Would Lyanna (only as opposed to someone Jon actually knows) be able to speak to Jon in a dream?   Jamie and Theon seem to interact with the people in their dreams.  This opens up endless possibility.   I hadn't considered Jon doing much independently during his time in Ghost.   I mean, surely he will investigate or project, maybe warg something else, but what I figured was that he would be wide open to BR & Bran without all that noisy life and living going on.  If he could speak with ghosts that could give him knowledge on par with Bran.   Wow. 

I spoke in the previous post about the idea that the Winterfell crypt dream Jon has is connected to those Theon and Jaime have. Theon's dream, I am unsure how to connect it to Jaime's, but I think I have found a connection between Jon's and Theon's and Jon's and Jaime's. 

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .(Jon VIII in Storm)

In the version of the dream Jon has in Storm, he notes a light going out - this feeds into Jaime's dream in the same book - 

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!" (Jaime VI in Storm)

And Jon's feeds into Theon's as the feast takes place in the dream he has in Clash. 

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. When his guards burst in with drawn swords, he ordered them to bring him the maester. By the time Luwin arrived rumpled and sleepy, a cup of wine had steadied Theon's hands, and he was feeling ashamed of his panic. "A dream," he muttered, "that was all it was. It meant nothing." (Theon V in Clash)

One thing that runs through all three of these dreams is fear; all three of them are clearly shaken once the dream is over. The theme of guilt unites Theon and Jaime's experience; Theon over his betrayal of Robb and Jaime over his inability to protect Elia and her children.  For Jon, it is more about identity and the guilt is inverted - we know that Ned felt guilty about Jon when he was confined in the black cells of the red keep:

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. (Eddard XV in Thrones)

I think it significant that Lyanna is in the Great Hall in Theon's dream, at the feast that Jon hears.  I think she will be able to travel down to the crypts to meet him and speak to him in front of her statue. I am sure Bran will be in touch while Jon is in Ghost, but on reflection my thinking today is that their contact will be about helping Jon return to his body rather than his parentage. Though I wouldn't rule out Bran bringing them together. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have never, in my 4 million years of reading ever read a story that speaks to so many different people in so many different ways.

Agreed! And I have read a lot of books!

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I clearly wasn't ready to let go of Craster.   Is there a worse guy with a similar set up just waiting?   Do you think there is anything to the Nights King?  When I think about this guy I expect the original guy, undead, to be wandering about or perhaps waiting to be loosed.   Then again, perhaps his story, told several times, is to be some character in our story to be made into his likeness.   Barbrey Dustin? 

I'm not sure what is going on with Craster; we know from the visions that Bran sees through the Winterfell heart tree that the Starks previously practiced blood sacrifice rituals. What Craster does is a different form of that. I would like to know how he came to start doing this, and if there is some sort of protective power in it. Craster seems to think there is:

Mormont leaned forward. "Every village we have passed has been abandoned. Yours are the first living faces we've seen since we left the Wall. The people are gone . . . whether dead, fled, or taken, I could not say. The animals as well. Nothing is left. And earlier, we found the bodies of two of Ben Stark's rangers only a few leagues from the Wall. They were pale and cold, with black hands and black feet and wounds that did not bleed. Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me, which tells me that they remember some of what they knew when they lived, but there was no human mercy left in them."

The woman's mouth hung open, a wet pink cave, but Craster only gave a snort. "We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe." He sent his wife scurrying with a slap on her leg and a shout of "More beer, and be quick about it." (Jon III in Clash)

He sacrifices to the Gods (or at least, that is his interpretation of what he does) and is therefore safe. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She is a lot more enjoyable to listen to now than she was for many listens.   But she can be a jerk when it suits her mood.   I'm still trying to figure out why she even took Quentyn to see the dragons. 

Quaithe warned Daenerys that people would seek her out to see the dragons:

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power." (Daenerys II in Clash)

I think Daenerys wanted to demonstrate to Quentyn that she held the power not him (remember, Quentyn came promising swords and offering himself as both a Prince of Dorne and a way of retaking the Iron Throne from the Lannisters). I think she also wanted to make him realize just how far out of his depth he was. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I am listening to Marsh tell Jon Snow to allow Tormund's group in is nothing less than treason just now.    No matter what Jon does Marsh is unhappy.  

As far as Marsh and many of the others are concerned, the wildlings are the enemies of the Night's Watch; it is the wildlings that have tried to kill them and have killed their brothers. I can see where he is coming from - without going north of the Wall and seeing a lot of the things Jon and the rest have, it is hard to believe that the Others have returned.  But, yes, Bowen Marsh and Jon spend most of Dance in disagreement with one another and it eventually leads to Jon thinking that he knows what Bowen Marsh will say before he even says it. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not so sure we would have heard anything other than A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell.   It's possible Ned didn't have all the info because he wasn't supposed to be the Stark in Winterfell and there was no time to prepare him.    I am not even sure Ned had more than what we have.  Tyrion borrowed tomes from the Winterfell library.    We can hope for intel there or wait to see what Bran and the rest of the kids can put together.   If Ice 1 wasn't destroyed (however, use of the word "lost" is a dead giveaway we will never ever see this item) why wouldn't it be in the crypts?   

If the sword wasn't lost, then the crypts would be the logical location. Given that Starks have been burying their dead in the Winterfell crypts for centuries, it is entirely possible that it sits upon the knee of an old King of Winter, rusted away. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, dornishdame said:

One

Given the number of sons he has - and remember, not all of them can inherit - it makes more sense to give a son as hostage.  Tytos has only one daughter, making her all the more precious to him, and that is why Bracken is so desperate to persuade Jaime.  He wants to hurt Tytos Blackwood.  Yes, of course.   I just thought it timely and perhaps a small demonstration of the idea that the power may be in the female of each line.   Tormund is very fond of his only daughter too.    You have made me sensitive to these things!  

I've said it before, and I will say it again - a lot of parallels/links between Jon and Bloodraven. Not until I was writing my last post, however, that I started to think of how Rhaegar fits in too with the single-mindedness and sense of purpose.  Maybe that is something I need to think about in more detail.   Indeed you have and I will continue to marvel at them as you explain them to me.    Such odd bedfellows in these parallels.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how much of what Euron says can be believed.  And with his crew being mute, it is hard for them to contradict him. He has to have gone to Braavos, as he hired the Faceless Men (something I assume would require the person taking out the contract to do in person); he also picked up the Qartheen warlocks, so I would guess he has reached there. Beyond that, who knows!     Where would he just happen to pick up a dragon's egg?   He's got the best toys of anyone in the series.  

Absolutely - and I don't reject the idea that different people will fulfill different parts of the prophecy. A lot of problems can arise even from translation. 

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." (Sam IV in Feast)    And this is the most glaring truth GRRM gives us!  Hopefully generations to come won't require decoder rings to figure it all out.   

The Ghost of High Heart says that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella; I tend to think that is where we have to look. But I think Daenerys alone is too easy an answer; we are looking for TPTWP to awake dragons from stone, but I think Jon, as TPTWP, will himself be the dragon awoken from stone. If we look at the Dunk and Egg tales and the dreams of Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre, in both cases they dream of a literal dragon. The dreams are prophetic and do come true, only there are no literal dragons, only Targaryens.  That is, in part, why I think the prophecy relates to the birth of a Targaryen from stone rather than a literal dragon.   Yes, that's more or less how I interpreted it, though to be honest, I'm still not convinced or resolved what exactly "waking dragons from stone" is.   

I wonder if we could count the blood magic Daenerys unwitting uses at the end of Thrones to birth the dragons as a willing blood sacrifice given that she walks into the pyre? It could fit into the theory that the dragons are lightbringer in this long night. I'm not entirely sure of that one, but I like the idea that perhaps the three heads of the dragon, whomever they are, could each fulfill parts of different prophecies.   This is what I've pretty much settled on for waking dragons from stone means.  I think Dany's sacrifice here transcends all the sacrifices that will be required of her.   She lost her husband and child, her khalisar, pretty much everything.    A friend and I were recently discussing the idea that Dany may even be undead due to this little stunt.  Did she believe her dragons would hatch or did she believe she was going to die?  Was she paying a penance or collecting her due at the end of her sacrifice?    As I recall this chapter, all she is is sad and desperate.  GRRM said this was a bonafide miracle.  I honestly thought she walked in to kill herself after having lost everything.    I figure all the "wake the dragon" crap from Viserys played into this somewhere, too.   I still have difficulty with exactly what the 3 heads of the dragon means.   Are they dragon riders?    Are they aspects of faith?   Are they aspects of war?  Are they human or are they indeed, simply the three dragons?   

I think Doran sees this as a win-win situation.  Darkstar is a dangerous man; if he kills Balon Swann then it only goes to back up what Doran said, and to highlight how dangerous Darkstar is, but if Darkstar is slain in combat, then Doran has rid himself of a dangerous man, and Cersei via Balon Swann has killed the fall guy who is now dead and therefore unable to contradict Doran.   All the whole Dorne plot is puzzles inside mysteries, but yes, Doran all but comes right out and says this is his plan during this conversation.  

We know little of why Darkstar is considered dangerous beyond his unpredictability and use of violence. We also know there is some sort of attraction between him and Arianne; perhaps therein also lies some explanation for Doran wanting him out of the way.  

"Darkstar," Tyene murmured, with a giggle. "Why not? It is all his doing. But will Ser Balon believe it?"  This is the line that was bugging me.   It may be a case of hearing it incorrectly, but within the conversation it sounds like Tyene is surprised that Darkstar is being blamed.

I spoke in the previous post about the idea that the Winterfell crypt dream Jon has is connected to those Theon and Jaime have. Theon's dream, I am unsure how to connect it to Jaime's, but I think I have found a connection between Jon's and Theon's and Jon's and Jaime's. 

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .(Jon VIII in Storm)

In the version of the dream Jon has in Storm, he notes a light going out - this feeds into Jaime's dream in the same book - 

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!" (Jaime VI in Storm)

And Jon's feeds into Theon's as the feast takes place in the dream he has in Clash. 

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. When his guards burst in with drawn swords, he ordered them to bring him the maester. By the time Luwin arrived rumpled and sleepy, a cup of wine had steadied Theon's hands, and he was feeling ashamed of his panic. "A dream," he muttered, "that was all it was. It meant nothing." (Theon V in Clash)

One thing that runs through all three of these dreams is fear; all three of them are clearly shaken once the dream is over. The theme of guilt unites Theon and Jaime's experience; Theon over his betrayal of Robb and Jaime over his inability to protect Elia and her children.  For Jon, it is more about identity and the guilt is inverted - we know that Ned felt guilty about Jon when he was confined in the black cells of the red keep:     You have me looking for similarities.   Don't Jon and Jamie's dreams take place underground?

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. (Eddard XV in Thrones)

I think it significant that Lyanna is in the Great Hall in Theon's dream, at the feast that Jon hears.  I think she will be able to travel down to the crypts to meet him and speak to him in front of her statue. I am sure Bran will be in touch while Jon is in Ghost, but on reflection my thinking today is that their contact will be about helping Jon return to his body rather than his parentage. Though I wouldn't rule out Bran bringing them together.     You know Dame, I think I asked in the last post why Jon would be limping then lo and behold you bust out with a Ned quote that happens to take place when his leg is broken.   This is fascinating.   Could Jon be manifesting some of Ned's pain in his dream?   Your Theon dream quote specifically mentions Lyanna--ah yes it does appear that she could appear to Jon then, doesn't it?  

Agreed! And I have read a lot of books!

I'm not sure what is going on with Craster; we know from the visions that Bran sees through the Winterfell heart tree that the Starks previously practiced blood sacrifice rituals. What Craster does is a different form of that. I would like to know how he came to start doing this, and if there is some sort of protective power in it. Craster seems to think there is:   Isn't it curious that we see sacrifices to the Old Gods in Bran's visions and Craster only mentions "the" gods?  

Mormont leaned forward. "Every village we have passed has been abandoned. Yours are the first living faces we've seen since we left the Wall. The people are gone . . . whether dead, fled, or taken, I could not say. The animals as well. Nothing is left. And earlier, we found the bodies of two of Ben Stark's rangers only a few leagues from the Wall. They were pale and cold, with black hands and black feet and wounds that did not bleed. Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me, which tells me that they remember some of what they knew when they lived, but there was no human mercy left in them."

The woman's mouth hung open, a wet pink cave, but Craster only gave a snort. "We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe." He sent his wife scurrying with a slap on her leg and a shout of "More beer, and be quick about it." (Jon III in Clash)

He sacrifices to the Gods (or at least, that is his interpretation of what he does) and is therefore safe.  He does.   How many other folks North of the Wall also practice this type of worship?  And the incest involved in Craster's character goes beyond the established line of "acceptability", even in ASOIAF.   Was he in league with The Others?  How would he know to do any of this?   Craster's reference to the gods is really creepy once you find out who the gods are.   In neglecting to define the gods as Old Gods tells us that The Others are not connected to the Old Gods.    Maybe not the COTF either.

Quaithe warned Daenerys that people would seek her out to see the dragons:

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power." (Daenerys II in Clash)

I think Daenerys wanted to demonstrate to Quentyn that she held the power not him (remember, Quentyn came promising swords and offering himself as both a Prince of Dorne and a way of retaking the Iron Throne from the Lannisters). I think she also wanted to make him realize just how far out of his depth he was.  Hadn't thought of that at all.    She seemed to like Quentyn.   She left her wedding reception to take him to the lair.  He does go on about having a drop of dragon blood.   Yes, I can see this, thanks.  

As far as Marsh and many of the others are concerned, the wildlings are the enemies of the Night's Watch; it is the wildlings that have tried to kill them and have killed their brothers. I can see where he is coming from - without going north of the Wall and seeing a lot of the things Jon and the rest have, it is hard to believe that the Others have returned.  But, yes, Bowen Marsh and Jon spend most of Dance in disagreement with one another and it eventually leads to Jon thinking that he knows what Bowen Marsh will say before he even says it.   True True True.   Still, wasn't Bowen Marsh in residence as a steward when the wight attacked LC Mormont right there at Castle black?   The more times I listen to this the greater fool Marsh becomes to me.  

If the sword wasn't lost, then the crypts would be the logical location. Given that Starks have been burying their dead in the Winterfell crypts for centuries, it is entirely possible that it sits upon the knee of an old King of Winter, rusted away.   Agreed.  There was someone last year or the year before who made quite a big deal out of the sword Hodor has.    We are told the swords are rusty and old yet Hodor can still hack at trees without harming his sword.  (Remember Robb takes his castle forged sword to the tree when he learns of Ned's death and beats it pretty well.) It could be just a crazy connection, but you know how my ears prick up about swords.    It was interesting.   

You've been so good to let me ramble about my reread that I haven't even asked where you are in your own reread.   Well?

[dornishdame]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I just thought it timely and perhaps a small demonstration of the idea that the power may be in the female of each line.   Tormund is very fond of his only daughter too.    You have made me sensitive to these things!  

In such a patriarchal society, I think it is uncertain how many people would see the power of the female line.  I think with Tormund and Tytos it is the fact that they have one daughter and numerous sons; they are protective of the only girl. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Indeed you have and I will continue to marvel at them as you explain them to me.    Such odd bedfellows in these parallels.

Yeah, on reflection I need to investigate more parallels between Jon, Rhaegar and Bloodraven.  Not so unlikely they would be similar, given all three have Blackwood and Targaryen blood.  I also really need to get back to working on the Jon/Bloodraven parallels and links.  I have written up my investigations into Jon/Aegon V parallels, which I will get round to posting once I have completed the Jon/Bloodraven ones as I feel the two ideas work well as companion pieces. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Where would he just happen to pick up a dragon's egg?   He's got the best toys of anyone in the series.  

If Euron did, in fact, go to Valyria, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he picked it up there.  That said, it is not impossible - given his clear interest in magic - that he picked it up in Asshai. I have wondered since our initial exchange regarding his travel itinerary if he had traveled that far east.  And if we look at other instances of dragons/dragon eggs:

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty." (Daenerys II in Thrones)

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. (Bran III in Thrones)

First off, I am not entirely sure that is where Illyrio got the dragon's eggs he gives to Daenerys; given that Varys has scoured the secrets of the Red Keep for more than two decades by this point, it is not impossible that he came across them there.  That said, the fact that Illyrio says this is where they are from is considered plausible makes me think that Euron could have picked one up there himself. Though not, I think, by legitimate means. 

So I do think Euron may be telling the truth when he says:

"IRONMEN," said Euron Greyjoy, "you have heard my horn. Now hear my words. I am Balon's brother, Quellon's eldest living son. Lord Vickon's blood is in my veins, and the blood of the Old Kraken. Yet I have sailed farther than any of them. Only one living kraken has never known defeat. Only one has never bent his knee. Only one has sailed to Asshai by the Shadow, and seen wonders and terrors beyond imagining . . ." (The Drowned Man in Feast)

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

And this is the most glaring truth GRRM gives us!  Hopefully generations to come won't require decoder rings to figure it all out.   

So much of prophecy is about interpretation, and in interpreting it wrongly we can sometimes actually make prophecies self-fulfilling. If we look at all the ASOIAF prophecies, then we can see that many of them are symbolic and metaphorical rather than literal. As I have said before, the 'dragons' that Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre dreamed of were, in fact, Targaryens. The Ghost of High Heart uses heraldry in her prophecies, such as this one:

 "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?" (Arya IV in Storm)

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes, that's more or less how I interpreted it, though to be honest, I'm still not convinced or resolved what exactly "waking dragons from stone" is.   

I tend to think that "waking dragons from stone" is essentially Jon being awoken and reborn into his healed, stone-cold body. But that could be an overly literal interpretation based purely on what I think will happen, rather than something exclusively from the text!!

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think Dany's sacrifice here transcends all the sacrifices that will be required of her.   She lost her husband and child, her khalisar, pretty much everything.    A friend and I were recently discussing the idea that Dany may even be undead due to this little stunt.  Did she believe her dragons would hatch or did she believe she was going to die?  Was she paying a penance or collecting her due at the end of her sacrifice?    As I recall this chapter, all she is is sad and desperate.  GRRM said this was a bonafide miracle.  I honestly thought she walked in to kill herself after having lost everything.    I figure all the "wake the dragon" crap from Viserys played into this somewhere, too.   I still have difficulty with exactly what the 3 heads of the dragon means.   Are they dragon riders?    Are they aspects of faith?   Are they aspects of war?  Are they human or are they indeed, simply the three dragons?   

I think that, given her dragon dreams throughout the first book, Daenerys believed she could birth the dragons.  Yes, it was a miracle and it was magic, but I think she stumbled across the blood sacrifice element by accident.  Mirri Maaz Duur's insistence that only death may pay for life. 

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. (Daenerys X in Thrones)

As for the three heads of the dragon, I think it means that there will be three leaders in the war to come. Rhaegar seems to suggest in the House of the Undying vision that he intended for there to be a sibling group similar to that of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives (though I suppose his there must be one more comment could simply be him telling Daenerys that there is one more out there - a child he has that she doesn't know about). 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is the line that was bugging me.   It may be a case of hearing it incorrectly, but within the conversation it sounds like Tyene is surprised that Darkstar is being blamed.

I tend to read it as amusement rather than surprise; as much about Doran's taking such action in the first place.  The sand snakes see Doran as overly patient and a man of words rather than one of action. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You have me looking for similarities.   Don't Jon and Jamie's dreams take place underground?

They do; Jon's in the Winterfell crypts and Jaime's in the depths of Casterly Rock.  Both also have to do with the dead; in later versions of Jon's dream, the dead awaken, and in Jaime's he comes face to face with his former Kingsguard brothers and Rhaegar Targaryen - all dead.  He also meets Joffrey and Tywin, who die later in Storm. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know Dame, I think I asked in the last post why Jon would be limping then lo and behold you bust out with a Ned quote that happens to take place when his leg is broken.   This is fascinating.   Could Jon be manifesting some of Ned's pain in his dream?   Your Theon dream quote specifically mentions Lyanna--ah yes it does appear that she could appear to Jon then, doesn't it?  

I think it is Jon's own pain that is manifesting in this dream. At this stage in Storm, he has been limping since his return to Castle Black and it is repeatedly mentioned that he has to use a crutch to get around and that Maester Aemon is treating him with milk of the poppy.  That said, it is intriguing that the pain is entering his subconscious too - iirc, this is the only time in a Winterfell dream that Jon is limping.  Lyanna's appearance is interesting - given that Theon never met her but instantly identifies her does, I think, reinforce the idea of she and Arya being alike in appearance (a statue can only convey so much of a person's appearance).  Jon can hear the feast she attends, but cannot enter - so she will have to come to him, I think. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Craster seems to think there is:   Isn't it curious that we see sacrifices to the Old Gods in Bran's visions and Craster only mentions "the" gods?  

Those in Westeros seem to consider the idea of the old gods and the new; I think Beyond the Wall, there are only the old gods and so it would make sense to refer to the gods in a singular sense. 

Bran, as the son of a woman who grew up in the Faith of the Seven and a man who worshipped the old gods, would consider there to be more than one religion and therefore more than one set of gods. If that makes sense at all? It did in my head, but now I have written it down, I am not at all sure. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How many other folks North of the Wall also practice this type of worship?  And the incest involved in Craster's character goes beyond the established line of "acceptability", even in ASOIAF.   Was he in league with The Others?  How would he know to do any of this?   Craster's reference to the gods is really creepy once you find out who the gods are.   In neglecting to define the gods as Old Gods tells us that The Others are not connected to the Old Gods.    Maybe not the COTF either.

I have no idea! I think as we move into Winds and hopefully become more informed about the Others etc, we might be able to find out what was going on! Gilly tells us a bit about the sacrifices he makes in Clash, and reading it I wonder if perhaps I am wrong, and Craster views his sacrifices as godly rather than the attempts at self-preservation they are in reality. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She seemed to like Quentyn.   She left her wedding reception to take him to the lair.  He does go on about having a drop of dragon blood.   Yes, I can see this, thanks.  

I think she does like him, but at the same time knows he is utterly out of his depth with her - and wants to show him that.  Doran has left it too late to send his son; had Daenerys met Quentyn in Qarth, for example, then I think she may well have said yes to his proposal as a way of going home.  And, I think that Daenerys also sees herself as having to claim the iron throne in her own right; she cannot be seen to be Queen Consort in any way. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

True True True.   Still, wasn't Bowen Marsh in residence as a steward when the wight attacked LC Mormont right there at Castle black?   The more times I listen to this the greater fool Marsh becomes to me.  

He was, true, but think on Ned's reflections regarding Robert:

"I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough … but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. "Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?" (Eddard IX in Thrones)

In Bowen Marsh's ordered world, the wildlings are the enemy and all Night's Watch resources must be hoarded to see them through the winter. He is in charge of stock-taking and supplies and will not allow anything supernatural to interfere with that. Bowen Marsh does not wish to accept that the Others have returned - as many south of the Wall will too - and so he closes his eyes to any evidence of that being the case.  He has a good, healthy dose of denial. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Agreed.  There was someone last year or the year before who made quite a big deal out of the sword Hodor has.    We are told the swords are rusty and old yet Hodor can still hack at trees without harming his sword.  (Remember Robb takes his castle forged sword to the tree when he learns of Ned's death and beats it pretty well.) It could be just a crazy connection, but you know how my ears prick up about swords.    It was interesting.   

I think that if the original Ice is in the crypts, it may be further down, in the old almost-collapsed levels.  I did wonder if, perhaps, the original Ice was placed in the crypts when the Valyrian Steel one was purchased (I think that was around 400 years previously?) - but given Cat's wording, I think that there was a gap between the loss of the original and the purchase of the VS sword. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You've been so good to let me ramble about my reread that I haven't even asked where you are in your own reread.   Well?

I am reading slowly (or more so than usual) in the hope of picking up more, and as such am still in the early part of Thrones. I was intrigued by one passage I read yesterday:

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—" (Catelyn II in Thrones)

It was the highlighted part that caught my eye. The wording caught my eye, given that I think the phrase is only used once more throughout the series, in the House of the Undying:

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal. (Daenerys IV in Clash)

Given that this man holds an iron crown and has the head of a wolf, the common thinking is that it is Robb.  Although I am no longer convinced it shows the Red Wedding, I wonder if it shows the feast of the dead from Theon's dream, though slightly later (with Robb having taken his place at the top of the table, as king)?

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds. (Theon V in Clash)

I could be running with something that is completely implausible, but it would link in further with the idea that Theon, Jaime and Jon have inter-connected dreams. It was just that the repeated use of mute appeal made me wonder if Daenerys's dream featured Ned, and then I thought that perhaps it was Robb, given the crown. But then again, maybe it was Ned.  Or, the wait for Winds is making me see things that aren't there (and it wouldn't be the first time).

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Yeah, on reflection I need to investigate more parallels between Jon, Rhaegar and Bloodraven.  Not so unlikely they would be similar, given all three have Blackwood and Targaryen blood.  I also really need to get back to working on the Jon/Bloodraven parallels and links.  I have written up my investigations into Jon/Aegon V parallels, which I will get round to posting once I have completed the Jon/Bloodraven ones as I feel the two ideas work well as companion pieces.     I await this eagerly, Dame.

If Euron did, in fact, go to Valyria, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he picked it up there.  That said, it is not impossible - given his clear interest in magic - that he picked it up in Asshai. I have wondered since our initial exchange regarding his travel itinerary if he had traveled that far east.  And if we look at other instances of dragons/dragon eggs:   Yes this is true.   I fear that whole idea of astral travel and the brevity of his travels left me unbelieving anyone could make this trip and back so quickly.  I like your alternate idea that perhaps all the eggs are actually local.   This makes a lot more sense.  

First off, I am not entirely sure that is where Illyrio got the dragon's eggs he gives to Daenerys; given that Varys has scoured the secrets of the Red Keep for more than two decades by this point, it is not impossible that he came across them there.  That said, the fact that Illyrio says this is where they are from is considered plausible makes me think that Euron could have picked one up there himself. Though not, I think, by legitimate means. 

So I do think Euron may be telling the truth when he says:

"IRONMEN," said Euron Greyjoy, "you have heard my horn. Now hear my words. I am Balon's brother, Quellon's eldest living son. Lord Vickon's blood is in my veins, and the blood of the Old Kraken. Yet I have sailed farther than any of them. Only one living kraken has never known defeat. Only one has never bent his knee. Only one has sailed to Asshai by the Shadow, and seen wonders and terrors beyond imagining . . ." (The Drowned Man in Feast)    Hard to believe a man who boasts this loud is actually capable of having experienced all he claims.   There is a part where Vic says the winds are with him and theory connecting this excellent fortune to the many sacrifices he made to the Drowned God.   Could be the same deal with Euron and may explain the quickness of the trip.  

So much of prophecy is about interpretation, and in interpreting it wrongly we can sometimes actually make prophecies self-fulfilling. If we look at all the ASOIAF prophecies, then we can see that many of them are symbolic and metaphorical rather than literal. As I have said before, the 'dragons' that Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre dreamed of were, in fact, Targaryens. The Ghost of High Heart uses heraldry in her prophecies, such as this one:

 "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?" (Arya IV in Storm)

I tend to think that "waking dragons from stone" is essentially Jon being awoken and reborn into his healed, stone-cold body. But that could be an overly literal interpretation based purely on what I think will happen, rather than something exclusively from the text!!    I guess I have a hard time understanding Jon as a stone.    Now you bring stone cold into the discussion.  I know a lot of folks expect him to be housed on ice, but as I've said, I'm not sure he's even dead.    Maybe that's the sticking point.   

I think that, given her dragon dreams throughout the first book, Daenerys believed she could birth the dragons.  Yes, it was a miracle and it was magic, but I think she stumbled across the blood sacrifice element by accident.  Mirri Maaz Duur's insistence that only death may pay for life. 

As for the three heads of the dragon, I think it means that there will be three leaders in the war to come. Rhaegar seems to suggest in the House of the Undying vision that he intended for there to be a sibling group similar to that of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives (though I suppose his there must be one more comment could simply be him telling Daenerys that there is one more out there - a child he has that she doesn't know about).    I think that's what I originally thought, that these were leaders in war or conquest.    I've read way too many theories about the meaning of the 3 heads of the dragon to be sure of any now. 

I tend to read it as amusement rather than surprise; as much about Doran's taking such action in the first place.  The sand snakes see Doran as overly patient and a man of words rather than one of action.    I'm laughing at myself because it occurs to me that I have never recovered from my first inclination that Darkstar was actually a good guy.    Frame up goes right along with that.   I didn't realize I was that staunchly behind Darkstar.   

They do; Jon's in the Winterfell crypts and Jaime's in the depths of Casterly Rock.  Both also have to do with the dead; in later versions of Jon's dream, the dead awaken, and in Jaime's he comes face to face with his former Kingsguard brothers and Rhaegar Targaryen - all dead.  He also meets Joffrey and Tywin, who die later in Storm. 

I think it is Jon's own pain that is manifesting in this dream. At this stage in Storm, he has been limping since his return to Castle Black and it is repeatedly mentioned that he has to use a crutch to get around and that Maester Aemon is treating him with milk of the poppy.  That said, it is intriguing that the pain is entering his subconscious too - iirc, this is the only time in a Winterfell dream that Jon is limping.  Lyanna's appearance is interesting - given that Theon never met her but instantly identifies her does, I think, reinforce the idea of she and Arya being alike in appearance (a statue can only convey so much of a person's appearance).  Jon can hear the feast she attends, but cannot enter - so she will have to come to him, I think.     I don't recall Jon flexing his hand in any f the dreams.   Do you recall if he does in any of them?    This pain is downright strange in the dream.  

Those in Westeros seem to consider the idea of the old gods and the new; I think Beyond the Wall, there are only the old gods and so it would make sense to refer to the gods in a singular sense.  You know what's sort of amusing here, I thought that was their name, The Old gods. 

Bran, as the son of a woman who grew up in the Faith of the Seven and a man who worshipped the old gods, would consider there to be more than one religion and therefore more than one set of gods. If that makes sense at all? It did in my head, but now I have written it down, I am not at all sure.    It does. 

I have no idea! I think as we move into Winds and hopefully become more informed about the Others etc, we might be able to find out what was going on! Gilly tells us a bit about the sacrifices he makes in Clash, and reading it I wonder if perhaps I am wrong, and Craster views his sacrifices as godly rather than the attempts at self-preservation they are in reality. 

I think she does like him, but at the same time knows he is utterly out of his depth with her - and wants to show him that.  Doran has left it too late to send his son; had Daenerys met Quentyn in Qarth, for example, then I think she may well have said yes to his proposal as a way of going home.  And, I think that Daenerys also sees herself as having to claim the iron throne in her own right; she cannot be seen to be Queen Consort in any way. 

He was, true, but think on Ned's reflections regarding Robert:

"I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough … but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. "Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?" (Eddard IX in Thrones)

In Bowen Marsh's ordered world, the wildlings are the enemy and all Night's Watch resources must be hoarded to see them through the winter. He is in charge of stock-taking and supplies and will not allow anything supernatural to interfere with that. Bowen Marsh does not wish to accept that the Others have returned - as many south of the Wall will too - and so he closes his eyes to any evidence of that being the case.  He has a good, healthy dose of denial. 

I think that if the original Ice is in the crypts, it may be further down, in the old almost-collapsed levels.  I did wonder if, perhaps, the original Ice was placed in the crypts when the Valyrian Steel one was purchased (I think that was around 400 years previously?) - but given Cat's wording, I think that there was a gap between the loss of the original and the purchase of the VS sword.    I think Ice 1 was lost for thousands of years.   I have to go back to AWOIAF to se if I can pick up on any mention of the KOW using Ice.   The word "lost" tends to be pretty final in conjunction with the swords.  I thought half the swords were lost, originally, but no, only 2 are really lost and I believe they are never to be seen again.   No one seems to have seen the Hightower sword, Vigilance, for a very long time.    It isn't even mentioned in TPATQ. 

I am reading slowly (or more so than usual) in the hope of picking up more, and as such am still in the early part of Thrones. I was intrigued by one passage I read yesterday:

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—" (Catelyn II in Thrones)

It was the highlighted part that caught my eye. The wording caught my eye, given that I think the phrase is only used once more throughout the series, in the House of the Undying:

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal. (Daenerys IV in Clash)   You come up with the best stuff!    This is a curious connection with mute appeal.  

Given that this man holds an iron crown and has the head of a wolf, the common thinking is that it is Robb.  Although I am no longer convinced it shows the Red Wedding, I wonder if it shows the feast of the dead from Theon's dream, though slightly later (with Robb having taken his place at the top of the table, as king)?  Don't feel badly, I thought it was Ned all along and couldn't understand why Robb would be in Dany's vision.    He had nothing to do with her at all where Ned actively worked to protect her.  

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds. (Theon V in Clash)

I could be running with something that is completely implausible, but it would link in further with the idea that Theon, Jaime and Jon have inter-connected dreams. It was just that the repeated use of mute appeal made me wonder if Daenerys's dream featured Ned, and then I thought that perhaps it was Robb, given the crown. But then again, maybe it was Ned.  Or, the wait for Winds is making me see things that aren't there (and it wouldn't be the first time).    No, Ned didn't wear a crown and he wasn't a King, but they all stem from the Kings of Winter--perhaps the crown is only symbolic of the history.  

I just picked up on my very 1st Arbor Gold =lie passage when Barristan goes to see Hizdar.   I'll admit I even listen to the ravens more closely than I used to.   Every reread is a new adventure to the same place, isn't it?   Take all the time you can, Dame, I await the connections and deeper meanings....

[dornishdame]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I await this eagerly, Dame.

On the subject of parallels between current and historical characters, there is one I picked up on yesterday that may have consequences for Winds. I was thinking about ASOIAF while running errands, and got to thinking about Arianne and parallels she shares with Rhaenyra. I will need to think about it more before setting it down in detail, but there are the succession issues - Rhaenyra/Aegon and Arianne/Quentyn - as well as the relationship with a KIngsguard (more rumored than anything in Rhaenyra's case, but still the link is there) and in Feast, she even invokes Criston Cole when speaking to Ser Arys Oakheart about female succession (yes, regarding Myrcella, but the link is there):

"You twist my words. I never said . . . Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen."

"The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise."

Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm," Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but . . ." (The Soiled Knight in Feast)

I will need to look into it more, but it is getting me concerned for Arianne in Winds. More and more I am thinking she will die in fire and blood as did her ancestress before her. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes this is true.   I fear that whole idea of astral travel and the brevity of his travels left me unbelieving anyone could make this trip and back so quickly.  I like your alternate idea that perhaps all the eggs are actually local.   This makes a lot more sense.  

Of course, we do not know Euron's movements throughout his life; it may be that the dragon's egg was picked up on a trip before Balon banished him, and he had kept it hidden for use at the right time. It may also be that he visited places like Ib, Asshai and Valyria before the banishment. We know too little of Euron's background and life to make a definitive assessment now.  But, yes, he could also have picked the eggs up locally. He could have stolen them at any point throughout his travels. IF, as I said in my previous post, the story Illyrio gives Daenerys about them being from Asshai is plausible, then it is not impossible that others have purchased them there, and Euron stole one from such a person. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hard to believe a man who boasts this loud is actually capable of having experienced all he claims.   There is a part where Vic says the winds are with him and theory connecting this excellent fortune to the many sacrifices he made to the Drowned God.   Could be the same deal with Euron and may explain the quickness of the trip.  

True, but I think Euron makes it clear that he worships more than the Drowned God, so it could also be, as I said above, that we know too little to make a true assessment. 

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"

"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ." (The Iron Captain in Feast)

In truth, I think the Euron's main source of worship is that of magic and sorcery. And that could have as much to do with the speed of his travels as anything else. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I guess I have a hard time understanding Jon as a stone.    Now you bring stone cold into the discussion.  I know a lot of folks expect him to be housed on ice, but as I've said, I'm not sure he's even dead.    Maybe that's the sticking point.   

I envision him in the ice cells as his body heals. Ice preserves, but he would be cold and close to death.  I think that in Winds, we will find that he isn't actually dead.  

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think that's what I originally thought, that these were leaders in war or conquest.    I've read way too many theories about the meaning of the 3 heads of the dragon to be sure of any now. 

Yeah, I think that sometimes myself - which is why a re-read is helpful to try and think again about the text rather than theories about the text. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm laughing at myself because it occurs to me that I have never recovered from my first inclination that Darkstar was actually a good guy.    Frame up goes right along with that.   I didn't realize I was that staunchly behind Darkstar.   

As I reader, I love reading The Queenmaker chapter in Feast because I think he is so unpredictable. When you have a character like that, they are great to read because it is difficult to work out what they will do next. Darkstar comes across as someone keen to prove himself. This but here makes me wonder if his intent isn't to become the most infamous Dayne of all:

"My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?" (The Queenmaker in Feast)

I am looking forward to meeting him again in Winds.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't recall Jon flexing his hand in any f the dreams.   Do you recall if he does in any of them?    This pain is downright strange in the dream.  

 I can't find any reference to it, but going back and looking at the Storm dream again, when he has the limp, there is also mention of his crutch. I wonder if the significance of that dream is the sense of loss Jon feels at this point.  I think he feels he has lost himself, his identity and his family. He is drugged up and has recently been told that Bran and Rickon are dead. 

There is, interestingly, one instance of flexing fingers earlier in the series, and it comes not from Jon, but Ned:

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?" (Eddard XV in Thrones)

So, there is a link to Jon here - and, indirectly to Jon's dream and future injuries.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

He has a good, healthy dose of denial. 

Yep, and Bowen Marsh's dose of denial is going to get a lot of people killed. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think Ice 1 was lost for thousands of years.   I have to go back to AWOIAF to se if I can pick up on any mention of the KOW using Ice.   The word "lost" tends to be pretty final in conjunction with the swords.  I thought half the swords were lost, originally, but no, only 2 are really lost and I believe they are never to be seen again.   No one seems to have seen the Hightower sword, Vigilance, for a very long time.    It isn't even mentioned in TPATQ. 

I am not sure that "lost" swords are gone forever - I think some would consider Blackfyre and Dark Sister to be lost, but I firmly believe both will be seen again in the series.  The original Ice, however, I think is possibly too old to still be around as an actual weapon. Ned thinks, when he takes Robert down to the Winterfell crypts, that the old iron swords on the tombs of his ancestors have started to wear away.  They are not Valyrian Steel, and so possibly don't have the same level of wear and tear? As for the Hightower sword, I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding that family; if they still have the sword then it is likely locked up with Lord Leyton. I am hoping that with Sam in Oldtown, we might get to meet a Hightower or two in Winds. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Don't feel badly, I thought it was Ned all along and couldn't understand why Robb would be in Dany's vision.    He had nothing to do with her at all where Ned actively worked to protect her.  

That is true; at some point I think I am going to have to sit down and go through all the visions and prophecies and try and pick out parallels and links.  The House of the Undying vision is, I think, one where we really still have a lot of pay-off to come. The majority of the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies have come true (though we still have to see Sansa slay a giant in a castle made of snow) but the HOTU ones are still open for Winds. Some of them have paid off, others have yet to do so. 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

No, Ned didn't wear a crown and he wasn't a King, but they all stem from the Kings of Winter--perhaps the crown is only symbolic of the history.  

It could be; I have also seen interpretations of that bit of the HOTU vision that state it is Jon she is seeing, and the crown relevant given his parentage.  But Jon repeatedly thinks of himself as unwelcome at the feast; he is not wanted there. But then, Jon does participate in feasts. Who knows? 

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I just picked up on my very 1st Arbor Gold =lie passage when Barristan goes to see Hizdar.   I'll admit I even listen to the ravens more closely than I used to.   Every reread is a new adventure to the same place, isn't it?   Take all the time you can, Dame, I await the connections and deeper meanings....

I have been re-reading with a notebook beside me, and have taken down lots of points/questions so far; some may have relevance for Winds, but I suspect most will not!

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, dornishdame said:

On the subject of parallels between current and historical characters, there is one I picked up on yesterday that may have consequences for Winds. I was thinking about ASOIAF while running errands, and got to thinking about Arianne and parallels she shares with Rhaenyra. I will need to think about it more before setting it down in detail, but there are the succession issues - Rhaenyra/Aegon and Arianne/Quentyn - as well as the relationship with a KIngsguard (more rumored than anything in Rhaenyra's case, but still the link is there) and in Feast, she even invokes Criston Cole when speaking to Ser Arys Oakheart about female succession (yes, regarding Myrcella, but the link is there):

"You twist my words. I never said . . . Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen."

"The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise."

Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm," Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but . . ." (The Soiled Knight in Feast)

I will need to look into it more, but it is getting me concerned for Arianne in Winds. More and more I am thinking she will die in fire and blood as did her ancestress before her.     Oh this is great.  I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this when you have it fully formulated.  

Of course, we do not know Euron's movements throughout his life; it may be that the dragon's egg was picked up on a trip before Balon banished him, and he had kept it hidden for use at the right time. It may also be that he visited places like Ib, Asshai and Valyria before the banishment. We know too little of Euron's background and life to make a definitive assessment now.  But, yes, he could also have picked the eggs up locally. He could have stolen them at any point throughout his travels. IF, as I said in my previous post, the story Illyrio gives Daenerys about them being from Asshai is plausible, then it is not impossible that others have purchased them there, and Euron stole one from such a person. 

True, but I think Euron makes it clear that he worships more than the Drowned God, so it could also be, as I said above, that we know too little to make a true assessment. 

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"

"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ." (The Iron Captain in Feast)

In truth, I think the Euron's main source of worship is that of magic and sorcery. And that could have as much to do with the speed of his travels as anything else.   You will get no argument from me on this.   A friend and I were discussing Vic's burning the slave girls and wondered if that could also be considered some tribute to Rh'llor and if it is, would the DG be ticked off?    I'm not very hopeful for Vic overall.   I think he's got some contribution to make, but I just can't see him long term at all.    This Moqorro is spooky and that rather lends itself to Vic as a means to an end...But Vic is pretty much insane these days so perhaps when he is parted from his Red Priest buddy, he can regain his mind.   

I envision him in the ice cells as his body heals. Ice preserves, but he would be cold and close to death.  I think that in Winds, we will find that he isn't actually dead.  A lot in the story points to exactly that happening.   I leave that to those bright minds who are brave enough to prognosticate about the foreshadowing.  

Yeah, I think that sometimes myself - which is why a re-read is helpful to try and think again about the text rather than theories about the text. 

As I reader, I love reading The Queenmaker chapter in Feast because I think he is so unpredictable. When you have a character like that, they are great to read because it is difficult to work out what they will do next. Darkstar comes across as someone keen to prove himself. This but here makes me wonder if his intent isn't to become the most infamous Dayne of all:

"My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?" (The Queenmaker in Feast)

I am looking forward to meeting him again in Winds.   I'm thinking he may be headed for some twist, like Sword of the Evening, but no one seems to know what the difference is between SOTM and SOTE. 

 I can't find any reference to it, but going back and looking at the Storm dream again, when he has the limp, there is also mention of his crutch. I wonder if the significance of that dream is the sense of loss Jon feels at this point.  I think he feels he has lost himself, his identity and his family. He is drugged up and has recently been told that Bran and Rickon are dead. 

There is, interestingly, one instance of flexing fingers earlier in the series, and it comes not from Jon, but Ned:

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?" (Eddard XV in Thrones)

So, there is a link to Jon here - and, indirectly to Jon's dream and future injuries.   This is so interesting.   You do realize you've got Ned and Jon sharing pain and effects of pain in dreams?  That Jon and Ned would be connected in such a way speaks to the magic of all the Starks, not just the kids.    This is actually poetic in the saddest way. 

Yep, and Bowen Marsh's dose of denial is going to get a lot of people killed. 

I am not sure that "lost" swords are gone forever - I think some would consider Blackfyre and Dark Sister to be lost, but I firmly believe both will be seen again in the series.  The original Ice, however, I think is possibly too old to still be around as an actual weapon. Ned thinks, when he takes Robert down to the Winterfell crypts, that the old iron swords on the tombs of his ancestors have started to wear away.  They are not Valyrian Steel, and so possibly don't have the same level of wear and tear? As for the Hightower sword, I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding that family; if they still have the sword then it is likely locked up with Lord Leyton. I am hoping that with Sam in Oldtown, we might get to meet a Hightower or two in Winds.   There is a code to it!    In the books swords are mentioned all over the place in various states of lostness.    You have to read the Wiki which is cleverly written.    There are only 2 "lost" swords, which I take to mean never to be seen again, Lamentation and Brightroar.    The other swords, even this Lysenni sword, are more or less out of sight, but not considered lost.    It's interesting when it's all broken down like that.  2 swords had to be destroyed or completely lost so that Ice could be made into 2 swords to replace them.   Now the Roxtons are extinct themselves, at least I find no reference to them in current times, but the Lannisters lost an important sword and what I believe is their claim or obligation to fulfill their part in the war against the Others.   So they get Oathkeeper and Jamie can't give it away fast enough.   Now it's sort of a Tarth sword, isn't it?    Widows wail was a Baratheon sword, where the Baratheons had no part in TLN.  Someone else has to get that sword, but the only folks I really liked for it were The Royces.   Still they are in the same boat as the Lannisters--in losing their Lamentation, they forfeited their part in the endgame.   I still like Arya for it, but I haven't got anything at all other than what I expect it's size to be for the match.   I think many of the families of the original heroes have fallen by the wayside (The Reynes, the Roxtons) while others have become unworthy of the honor of the task the swords were meant for (Lannisters & Corbray).   If Jamie actually ends up as a companion with a VS sword, I will be shocked.    For many reasons.   Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Truth, Orphanmaker and Vigilance had to go somewhere in secret.    Orphanmaker was taken by 1 of the 10 unidentified men who killed Roxton on the field and it is never clearly stated where Truth was outside of Lys--it could be it was part of Larra Rogare's dowry and given to Aegon the Unworthy, or not.    Gendry could find either one and ID it.   Dark Sister and Blackfyre are known to have existed as recently as  80-60 years ago.    It's entirely possible that the Hightowers simply put Vigilance in mothballs after the Tyrells were put above them.    I think we will see Vigilance, Blackfyre and Dark Sister in TWOW.   Technically, Widow's Wail is lost to the readers because we don't know if Tommen gave it to Loras or Joffrey was buried with it or if it's just laying around on display somewhere.  

That is true; at some point I think I am going to have to sit down and go through all the visions and prophecies and try and pick out parallels and links.  The House of the Undying vision is, I think, one where we really still have a lot of pay-off to come. The majority of the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies have come true (though we still have to see Sansa slay a giant in a castle made of snow) but the HOTU ones are still open for Winds. Some of them have paid off, others have yet to do so.   That's a tall order and I would laugh at most people for taking on such a gargantuan task.  You are one of the few minds I've come across who could actually pull this thing off.    Good luck with that and I will be looking forward to everything you find. 

It could be; I have also seen interpretations of that bit of the HOTU vision that state it is Jon she is seeing, and the crown relevant given his parentage.  But Jon repeatedly thinks of himself as unwelcome at the feast; he is not wanted there. But then, Jon does participate in feasts. Who knows? 

I have been re-reading with a notebook beside me, and have taken down lots of points/questions so far; some may have relevance for Winds, but I suspect most will not!    You make me want to actually read a real book with my eyes!    I think everything is relative in this story, Dame.    GRRM hasn't wasted a single word or filled space in any sentence.    It all means something. 

 

[dornishdame]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh this is great.  I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this when you have it fully formulated.  

So far, aside for being worried it will prove fatal to her, I am liking the parallels between Arianne and Rhaenyra. I think it works well. 

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You will get no argument from me on this.   A friend and I were discussing Vic's burning the slave girls and wondered if that could also be considered some tribute to Rh'llor and if it is, would the DG be ticked off?    I'm not very hopeful for Vic overall.   I think he's got some contribution to make, but I just can't see him long term at all.    This Moqorro is spooky and that rather lends itself to Vic as a means to an end...But Vic is pretty much insane these days so perhaps when he is parted from his Red Priest buddy, he can regain his mind.   

I think that as long as Moqorro and his magic is helping Victarion, he will be quite happy to worship both gods. Long term, I don't see Victarion having a part to play either; I think that as soon as Euron has no further use for him, Victarion will be disposed of. And not in a pleasant manner. I do think anyone he burns is given in service to R'hllor. But Victarion also drowns the maester Euron sends with him to Meereen, and so he is continuing his service to the Drowned God. 

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. "That one. Cut his throat and throw him in the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen." Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow. (The Iron Suitor in Dance)

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm thinking he may be headed for some twist, like Sword of the Evening, but no one seems to know what the difference is between SOTM and SOTE. 

The World of Ice and Fire lists a Dayne as one of those sent to the Wall by Nymeria following her conquest of Dorne:

 Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne.  (The World of Ice and Fire)

But yes, there is no clarity I have been able to locate regarding the difference between the two. I hope Darkstar will evade capture in Winds, and that we will get to see more of him. 

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is actually poetic in the saddest way. 

At the moment, I am finding all connections between the two to be sad.  When re-reading Jon's very first POV chapter in Thrones, I found this - something I had never noticed before, in spite of Bran's The Knight of the Laughing Tree chapter being my favorite:

Ben Stark laughed. "As I feared. Ah, well. I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk." He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy, from a nearby trencher and bit into it. It crunched.

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. He dressed in black, as befitted a man of the Night's Watch. Tonight it was rich black velvet, with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped round his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. "A very quiet wolf," he observed.

"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black." (Jon I in Thrones)

In Meera's story, Ned is the quiet wolf, and I did wonder when re-reading the scene if Harrenhal was, perhaps, the first time Benjen was drunk? I could be reading far too much into it, but it did start off some thoughts in my head. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There is a code to it!    In the books swords are mentioned all over the place in various states of lostness.    You have to read the Wiki which is cleverly written.    There are only 2 "lost" swords, which I take to mean never to be seen again, Lamentation and Brightroar.    The other swords, even this Lysenni sword, are more or less out of sight, but not considered lost.    It's interesting when it's all broken down like that.  2 swords had to be destroyed or completely lost so that Ice could be made into 2 swords to replace them.   Now the Roxtons are extinct themselves, at least I find no reference to them in current times, but the Lannisters lost an important sword and what I believe is their claim or obligation to fulfill their part in the war against the Others.   So they get Oathkeeper and Jamie can't give it away fast enough.   Now it's sort of a Tarth sword, isn't it?    Widows wail was a Baratheon sword, where the Baratheons had no part in TLN.  Someone else has to get that sword, but the only folks I really liked for it were The Royces.   Still they are in the same boat as the Lannisters--in losing their Lamentation, they forfeited their part in the endgame.   I still like Arya for it, but I haven't got anything at all other than what I expect it's size to be for the match.   I think many of the families of the original heroes have fallen by the wayside (The Reynes, the Roxtons) while others have become unworthy of the honor of the task the swords were meant for (Lannisters & Corbray).   If Jamie actually ends up as a companion with a VS sword, I will be shocked.    For many reasons.   Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Truth, Orphanmaker and Vigilance had to go somewhere in secret.    Orphanmaker was taken by 1 of the 10 unidentified men who killed Roxton on the field and it is never clearly stated where Truth was outside of Lys--it could be it was part of Larra Rogare's dowry and given to Aegon the Unworthy, or not.    Gendry could find either one and ID it.   Dark Sister and Blackfyre are known to have existed as recently as  80-60 years ago.    It's entirely possible that the Hightowers simply put Vigilance in mothballs after the Tyrells were put above them.    I think we will see Vigilance, Blackfyre and Dark Sister in TWOW.   Technically, Widow's Wail is lost to the readers because we don't know if Tommen gave it to Loras or Joffrey was buried with it or if it's just laying around on display somewhere.  

I will look out for mentions of all these swords in my re-read, and when I come to re-read The World of Ice and Fire. Have to admit, Dark Sister and Blackfyre are the two I most look forward to seeing again (though I am not sure Blackfyre will survive Aegon VI's reign).

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That's a tall order and I would laugh at most people for taking on such a gargantuan task.  You are one of the few minds I've come across who could actually pull this thing off.    Good luck with that and I will be looking forward to everything you find. 

'Tis, in any case, a project for a few months from now!! I am still working through parallels between Jon and Bloodraven, completing my re-read and planning on working on the Arianne/Rhaenyra stuff. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You make me want to actually read a real book with my eyes!    I think everything is relative in this story, Dame.    GRRM hasn't wasted a single word or filled space in any sentence.    It all means something. 

What I look for are things that sound a bit strange, and things that recur and take it from there.  For starters - Robert took Jaime, Meryn and Boros north with him. Why only those three?  Barristan comes north to the Riverlands with Renly to meet up with the party on their return south; this suggests that Robert extended Kingsguard protection to his youngest brother - and yet Stannis does not take one back to Dragonstone with him when he flees the capital before Robert's return, suggesting he wasn't granted/didn't use that protection.  Surely the king himself, the queen and their children traveling from one end of Westeros to the other would be involve more than three Kingsguard? More specifically, I am surprised that the LC of the Kingsguard did not accompany the royal family north. I do wonder - and I could be well off here - if perhaps Jon shares some sort of resemblance (a subtle one) with Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies? Barristan met him on countless occasions, and would be able to pick up on that; Aemon, who is blind, would also be able to. Hmmm. 

Also picked up recently - like Arya, Robb chews his lip, and right from the start Ghost picks up on Jon's emotions. Fascinating! Picked up so many more little bits and pieces, but it would take hours to go through them all!!!

[Curled Finger]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 2:51 AM, dornishdame said:

So far, aside for being worried it will prove fatal to her, I am liking the parallels between Arianne and Rhaenyra. I think it works well.   Arienne dead?  I can see the parallels you clearly draw, but I'm afraid I need to see the whole idea before I can really put it together.   Rhaenyra was so fierce.    Arrienne is adventurous to the point of foolish.  She still needs to prove herself to me.    Got anything for Criston Cole and Darkstar perhaps? 

I think that as long as Moqorro and his magic is helping Victarion, he will be quite happy to worship both gods. Long term, I don't see Victarion having a part to play either; I think that as soon as Euron has no further use for him, Victarion will be disposed of. And not in a pleasant manner. I do think anyone he burns is given in service to R'hllor. But Victarion also drowns the maester Euron sends with him to Meereen, and so he is continuing his service to the Drowned God.   I know Theon has an affinity for the Old Gods and Asha goes along to get along with the worshippers in Stannis' company, but Vic's er, dedication and embrace of the Red God is so out of character for and Iron Born.   There was a passage in the World Book that described one of the Iron Kings allowing The Faith on the isands, but that didn't work out very well.    We were discussing the possibility that Euron may be able to "possess" or "invade" minds via skin changing powers.    This Moqorro strikes me in exactly that same way.   Perhaps Moqorro is Euron's agent or a person who is indebted to Euron?   We saw Moqorro with Tyrion and Jorah and he didn't seem this creepy then.   Do you see this at all or am I nuts?

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. "That one. Cut his throat and throw him in the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen." Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow. (The Iron Suitor in Dance)        Gads, that creepy smoking arm...

The World of Ice and Fire lists a Dayne as one of those sent to the Wall by Nymeria following her conquest of Dorne:

 Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne.  (The World of Ice and Fire)

But yes, there is no clarity I have been able to locate regarding the difference between the two. I hope Darkstar will evade capture in Winds, and that we will get to see more of him.    Then it isn't there.   I don't know a more studious reader than you.  

At the moment, I am finding all connections between the two to be sad.  When re-reading Jon's very first POV chapter in Thrones, I found this - something I had never noticed before, in spite of Bran's The Knight of the Laughing Tree chapter being my favorite:

Ben Stark laughed. "As I feared. Ah, well. I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk." He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy, from a nearby trencher and bit into it. It crunched.

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. He dressed in black, as befitted a man of the Night's Watch. Tonight it was rich black velvet, with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped round his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. "A very quiet wolf," he observed.

"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black." (Jon I in Thrones)

In Meera's story, Ned is the quiet wolf, and I did wonder when re-reading the scene if Harrenhal was, perhaps, the first time Benjen was drunk? I could be reading far too much into it, but it did start off some thoughts in my head.    Hey!   That's a cool tying together of time and space.   Dame!   I don't think that's reading too much into at all.    The KOLT story is there and this is subtle foreshadowing.    I've never seen that put together.  

I will look out for mentions of all these swords in my re-read, and when I come to re-read The World of Ice and Fire. Have to admit, Dark Sister and Blackfyre are the two I most look forward to seeing again (though I am not sure Blackfyre will survive Aegon VI's reign).  I made a little discovery recently.    Please let me know if you see any mention of a person or place called Wheaton.   Ser Warrick Wheaton specifically, but any Wheaton would help.    All I came up with was a Giants running back.  And I think BF has to survive.   BF has a job to do yet. 

'Tis, in any case, a project for a few months from now!! I am still working through parallels between Jon and Bloodraven, completing my re-read and planning on working on the Arianne/Rhaenyra stuff.   I'm dying to know what you do for a living.   I see you teaching in a university or wearing a white cloak, er, coat in a lab with a high powered microscope.    These are not simple topics you are dusting.   This is really research.   And you seem to enjoy it so much.    You will put your parallels together and probably continue to find them well beyond your original findings.   

What I look for are things that sound a bit strange, and things that recur and take it from there.  For starters - Robert took Jaime, Meryn and Boros north with him. Why only those three?  Barristan comes north to the Riverlands with Renly to meet up with the party on their return south; this suggests that Robert extended Kingsguard protection to his youngest brother - and yet Stannis does not take one back to Dragonstone with him when he flees the capital before Robert's return, suggesting he wasn't granted/didn't use that protection.  Surely the king himself, the queen and their children traveling from one end of Westeros to the other would be involve more than three Kingsguard? More specifically, I am surprised that the LC of the Kingsguard did not accompany the royal family north. I do wonder - and I could be well off here - if perhaps Jon shares some sort of resemblance (a subtle one) with Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies? Barristan met him on countless occasions, and would be able to pick up on that; Aemon, who is blind, would also be able to. Hmmm.   Yeah, why only those 3?   I think Jamie wanted to be with Cersei and maybe the King has to have 3 KG around him on journeys?  It is odd.  I thought Selmy showing up later was strange, too.   Maybe GRRM only thought him up at that point?   That whole scenario of Stannis leaving suddenly was weird once we meet tenacious Stannis.   Sure didn't sound like something the Stannis we know would do.   Unless he was just pouting over Ned being named Hand.    Hey, that's cool, Jon and the Prince of Dragonflies.  Now I want to go read about him again to see if I see any resemblance.  I wonder what we missed about Jon because Aemon was blind.   I am really hoping BR will discuss Jon with Bran and I'm getting excited for Brans reaction to the big reveal about Jon.   In both mediums. 

Also picked up recently - like Arya, Robb chews his lip, and right from the start Ghost picks up on Jon's emotions. Fascinating! Picked up so many more little bits and pieces, but it would take hours to go through them all!!!   But you have your notebook and your notes are already exciting.  

Dame!  I've been gorging on swords so you know how distracted I get with them.   I had to come back here to enjoy your calm and very rational explanations.  Please forgive my tardy response.  Sword Update:  Modestly Lannister has this really cool idea that Vigilance may have also been lost in the DOD.   The sword isn't mentioned at all in the passage, but the idea has legs and possibility.    So that was fun, but time to get back to the real business of understanding.  

 

[dornishdame]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Arienne dead?  I can see the parallels you clearly draw, but I'm afraid I need to see the whole idea before I can really put it together.   Rhaenyra was so fierce.    Arrienne is adventurous to the point of foolish.  She still needs to prove herself to me.    Got anything for Criston Cole and Darkstar perhaps? 

I don't see any Darkstar/Criston parallels as yet, but you never know for the future.  Arianne - yeah, I see her dying in fire and blood as Rhaenyra did.  Arianne will, I think, throw in her lot with Young Griff and rise and fall with him.  

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I know Theon has an affinity for the Old Gods and Asha goes along to get along with the worshippers in Stannis' company, but Vic's er, dedication and embrace of the Red God is so out of character for and Iron Born.   There was a passage in the World Book that described one of the Iron Kings allowing The Faith on the isands, but that didn't work out very well.    We were discussing the possibility that Euron may be able to "possess" or "invade" minds via skin changing powers.    This Moqorro strikes me in exactly that same way.   Perhaps Moqorro is Euron's agent or a person who is indebted to Euron?   We saw Moqorro with Tyrion and Jorah and he didn't seem this creepy then.   Do you see this at all or am I nuts?

Yeah, Aeron seems to be the only Greyjoy with a profound connection to the Drowned God at the exclusion of all others.  I don't see Moqorro as someone who possesses people - I do see him as being as intense and fanatical as Melisandre is. I wonder if Victarion sees him as an advantage he can use against Euron? Theon's affinity with the Old Gods is, to a certain extent, understandable given the amount of time he spends in the North at Winterfell.  And with Bran reaching out to him through the heart tree, I think he sees that as a turning point in his road back from being "Reek".

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey!   That's a cool tying together of time and space.   Dame!   I don't think that's reading too much into at all.    The KOLT story is there and this is subtle foreshadowing.    I've never seen that put together.  

I have never seen it put together either.  And I am mad at myself for not seeing it before - given, as I said, that the KotLT chapter is my favorite. Re-reading the series has made me contemplate, also, just how little we see of Benjen before his disappearance. I hope we see Benjen again in Winds or Dream.  I feel that he has much more to give, and may be able to give us an insight into Lyanna during the Harrenhal tourney. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think BF has to survive.   BF has a job to do yet. 

Blackfyre will, I think, surface when Young Griff takes to the battlefield against the Tyrells - which should be in the early stages of Winds. At the latest, I can see it surfacing when Young Griff is crowned King Aegon VI. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

These are not simple topics you are dusting.   This is really research.   And you seem to enjoy it so much.    You will put your parallels together and probably continue to find them well beyond your original findings.   

Comes from having studied History and English Lit, and with ASOIAF, I feel like I get to combine the two.  Re-reads are like peeling off layers from an onion - you see more and more every time.  There is a Eugene O'Neill quote I love:

“There is no present or future-only the past, happening over and over again-now.”

I think it sums up the cyclical nature of history really well, and that theme is present throughout ASOIAF. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yeah, why only those 3?   I think Jamie wanted to be with Cersei and maybe the King has to have 3 KG around him on journeys?  It is odd.  I thought Selmy showing up later was strange, too.   Maybe GRRM only thought him up at that point?   That whole scenario of Stannis leaving suddenly was weird once we meet tenacious Stannis.   Sure didn't sound like something the Stannis we know would do.   Unless he was just pouting over Ned being named Hand.    Hey, that's cool, Jon and the Prince of Dragonflies.  Now I want to go read about him again to see if I see any resemblance.  I wonder what we missed about Jon because Aemon was blind.   I am really hoping BR will discuss Jon with Bran and I'm getting excited for Brans reaction to the big reveal about Jon.   In both mediums.

I see Jaime as being the KG routinely assigned to Cersei, and so his presence is natural.  It is more the absence of Barristan than anything else.  That combined with Aemon's blindness made me suspicious.  We are repeatedly told that Jon is an out-and-out Stark in appearance, but I do think that there has to be some sort of subtle Targaryen resemblance in Jon. Even if it as subtle as the shape of his eyes, or cheekbone structure!!! Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies piqued my interest for a number of reasons - he was the last Targaryen male we know of to be born with dark hair, both Barristan and Aemon knew him as a youngster and would therefore be able to attest to similarities, and like Jon, Duncan has both Targaryen and Blackwood blood in him.  We are back to the Blackwoods again - a family I certainly want to know more about in Winds. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dame!  I've been gorging on swords so you know how distracted I get with them.   I had to come back here to enjoy your calm and very rational explanations.  Please forgive my tardy response.  Sword Update:  Modestly Lannister has this really cool idea that Vigilance may have also been lost in the DOD.   The sword isn't mentioned at all in the passage, but the idea has legs and possibility.    So that was fun, but time to get back to the real business of understanding.  

It wouldn't surprise me if a number of swords were lost during the Dance.  And I think we will lose more VS swords in the war to come. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

I don't see any Darkstar/Criston parallels as yet, but you never know for the future.  Arianne - yeah, I see her dying in fire and blood as Rhaenyra did.  Arianne will, I think, throw in her lot with Young Griff and rise and fall with him.      I've always thought Arienne would throw in with Aegon but I guess I have never really considered the outcome of that alliance.    I sort of imagined all these great wins for Aegon once Dorne joins him then trying to untangle himself from Arienne when Dany comes.   She will be awesome at that point.   Gulp.  I do need to think about how that will all play out and I suppose you're probably right about it not ending well.  

Yeah, Aeron seems to be the only Greyjoy with a profound connection to the Drowned God at the exclusion of all others.  I don't see Moqorro as someone who possesses people - I do see him as being as intense and fanatical as Melisandre is. I wonder if Victarion sees him as an advantage he can use against Euron? Theon's affinity with the Old Gods is, to a certain extent, understandable given the amount of time he spends in the North at Winterfell.  And with Bran reaching out to him through the heart tree, I think he sees that as a turning point in his road back from being "Reek".  Am I understanding this to mean that you think Vic has bought into Moqorro on a strictly self-serving level and not as a result of some brainwashing?  

I have never seen it put together either.  And I am mad at myself for not seeing it before - given, as I said, that the KotLT chapter is my favorite. Re-reading the series has made me contemplate, also, just how little we see of Benjen before his disappearance. I hope we see Benjen again in Winds or Dream.  I feel that he has much more to give, and may be able to give us an insight into Lyanna during the Harrenhal tourney.    Heck yeah he does.   I hope he isn't dead.  Mu gut tells me he isn't.    But I'm as wrong as right about everything.   

Blackfyre will, I think, surface when Young Griff takes to the battlefield against the Tyrells - which should be in the early stages of Winds. At the latest, I can see it surfacing when Young Griff is crowned King Aegon VI.     This is most likely as I see it too.

Comes from having studied History and English Lit, and with ASOIAF, I feel like I get to combine the two.  Re-reads are like peeling off layers from an onion - you see more and more every time.  There is a Eugene O'Neill quote I love:

“There is no present or future-only the past, happening over and over again-now.”

I think it sums up the cyclical nature of history really well, and that theme is present throughout ASOIAF.     It is a perfect saying to attach to this story and I think you shared that before.   I'm floored by the few things I've picked up with my eyes and vow to actually get the books to hold in my hands and read with my eyes this year.    It is an entirely different experience.   

I see Jaime as being the KG routinely assigned to Cersei, and so his presence is natural.  It is more the absence of Barristan than anything else.  That combined with Aemon's blindness made me suspicious.  We are repeatedly told that Jon is an out-and-out Stark in appearance, but I do think that there has to be some sort of subtle Targaryen resemblance in Jon. Even if it as subtle as the shape of his eyes, or cheekbone structure!!! Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies piqued my interest for a number of reasons - he was the last Targaryen male we know of to be born with dark hair, both Barristan and Aemon knew him as a youngster and would therefore be able to attest to similarities, and like Jon, Duncan has both Targaryen and Blackwood blood in him.  We are back to the Blackwoods again - a family I certainly want to know more about in Winds.     That's perfect.    Yes, something is being hidden from us purposefully here.    That sneaky guy.   I am hoping that because TWOW is the next to last installment of the series that GRRM will really get down to answering some things and getting the story moving away from all the set up.  We have had set up forever and I'm ready to see the real points unfold.    I think we all assume there is some bigger point to the Others than the Game of Thrones.   Still the GOT has been such an enormous part of this story, I can't think it just isn't important by comparison.    Really I enjoy the other side of the story more as I find the politics tedious and hopeless with very little magic or charm.   And I am hoping that some one worthy will take the throne in the end and I admit I am enjoying watching the procession of rulers come and go. 

It wouldn't surprise me if a number of swords were lost during the Dance.  And I think we will lose more VS swords in the war to come.    I think they will all be lost and throw Dawn into it too.    I really hope this is the final showdown and Westeros finds balance and peace.  Don't think I can recall a magic sword ever surviving an epic tale?  

 

[dornishdame]

45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've always thought Arienne would throw in with Aegon but I guess I have never really considered the outcome of that alliance.    I sort of imagined all these great wins for Aegon once Dorne joins him then trying to untangle himself from Arienne when Dany comes.   She will be awesome at that point.   Gulp.  I do need to think about how that will all play out and I suppose you're probably right about it not ending well.  

Yeah, I think it is foreshadowed in the Arianne I spoiler chapter from Winds:

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." (Arianne I in Winds)

We know from the prophetic dreams that Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre have, that dragons in dreams tend to represent Targaryens (though, I think, it is likely that in this instance they ultimately represent dragon-riding Targaryens). I think Teora's dream foreshadows a destructive and costly war - one in which, I think, Young Griff and Arianne will die. 

56 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Am I understanding this to mean that you think Vic has bought into Moqorro on a strictly self-serving level and not as a result of some brainwashing? 

I think that Victarion has seen that Euron uses/has used magic in his endeavors and thinks to play Euron at his own game.  As Moqorro has proven himself trustworthy through whatever he did to Victarion's arm, he is willing to take Moqorro's magic on board. There is this section from Feast:

The captain took the cup Euron had not offered, sniffed at its contents suspiciously. Seen up close, it looked more blue than black. It was thick and oily, with a smell like rotted flesh. He tried a small swallow, and spit it out at once. "Foul stuff. Do you mean to poison me?"

"I mean to open your eyes." Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend's flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat."

Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all. Victarion was turning to go when the Crow's Eye said, "A king must have a wife, to give him heirs. Brother, I have need of you. Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?" (The Reaver in Feast)

I think Victarion has seen magic grant Euron power, and Victarion wants power over Euron.  Victarion has been loyal his whole life; whatever Balon asked of him, Victarion did. And Euron, I think, shamed Victarion by taking his wife. Victarion wants revenge, and through Moqorro can use what Euron sees as his advantage - magic - against him. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Heck yeah he does.   I hope he isn't dead.  Mu gut tells me he isn't.    But I'm as wrong as right about everything.   

I think we all tend to have guesses/theories that come off right, and others that are so off-base we wish that they had never crossed our minds! I tend to think Benjen is alive. There really aren't that many options for him - either he is dead, is being held hostage by the Others, is working off-grid to combat the Others, or is the hooded man in Winterfell, working towards a Stark restoration and acting as the 'Stark in Winterfell'.  There are good arguments for and against each scenario.  The one I like at the moment, is that he was captured by the Others and is being held hostage.  

We are repeatedly told that the Wall was built by Brandon the Builder; and yet, we hear this from Jeor Mormont when he implores Tyrion to speak to King Robert and Lord Tywin about what he has seen at Castle Black:

"Gared was near as old as I am and longer on the Wall," he went on, "yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell. Of Royce, there is no word. One deserter and two men lost, and now Ben Stark too has gone missing." He sighed deeply. "Who am I to send searching after him? In two years I will be seventy. Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night's Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it. Now it is all we can do to stay alive." (Tyrion III in Thrones)

So, that would seem to imply that the Wall has been built upon - as Winterfell has - from the base established by Brandon the Builder. So it is not solely Brandon that has raised/built the Wall. What I think Brandon's importance lies in, is the magics that were used to prevent the Others from coming south of the Wall. I know we spoke recently about protective spells and the Starks, and in my head that theme fits in here. If Brandon's magics prevent the Others from coming south, perhaps there is a way of removing those magics that would reverse the blockade. Blood sacrifice is repeatedly established as the most magical - think of Melisandre and her obsession with King's Blood. The blood of Brandon the Builder lives on in Benjen and the rest of the Starks we meet in the main series.  Perhaps sacrificing Benjen or his blood at the Wall will impact upon the Others' ability to come south? I am not sure, but this is the idea I like best at the moment. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It is a perfect saying to attach to this story and I think you shared that before.   I'm floored by the few things I've picked up with my eyes and vow to actually get the books to hold in my hands and read with my eyes this year.    It is an entirely different experience.   

 Yeah, I tend to use that quote a lot! Partly because it is true - particularly with regards to A Song of Ice and Fire!! There is so much to pick up every time you read/listen, and physically reading the books is by far the better experience - but as someone who avoids audio books and e-readers like they've got greyscale, I would say that!

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

That's perfect.    Yes, something is being hidden from us purposefully here.    That sneaky guy.   I am hoping that because TWOW is the next to last installment of the series that GRRM will really get down to answering some things and getting the story moving away from all the set up.  We have had set up forever and I'm ready to see the real points unfold.    I think we all assume there is some bigger point to the Others than the Game of Thrones.   Still the GOT has been such an enormous part of this story, I can't think it just isn't important by comparison.    Really I enjoy the other side of the story more as I find the politics tedious and hopeless with very little magic or charm.   And I am hoping that some one worthy will take the throne in the end and I admit I am enjoying watching the procession of rulers come and go. 

I think Winds is the moving day installment. Story lines that have previously appeared entirely separate will merge, and we will lose a lot of characters (including POV ones). Many questions will be answered - though I think some new ones will be posed - and I see Winds as perhaps the final book where the Game of Thrones and the War for the Dawn are entirely separate. In Dream, we will reach a stage where those who wish to rule Westeros will have to work to save it. Just conjecture, but I think sort of logical to think that way given we only have two books left. I like both politics and magic, so I am happy with both sides.  I think I have said before that I perceive Winds as having a lot of political meat in it, with the battle over the Iron Throne, only for us to get reminded in a big way right at the end of the book, of what the real war is.  I think we will have Young Griff and others battling over the Iron Throne only for the Wall to be breached right at the end of the book. 

And I do hope, as I said before, that we will get some more information on the Blackwoods in Winds. I really liked Hoster Blackwood, but Jaime disappeared with Brienne before we could really get to see much of him. I think that there is some sort of inherent magical ability that exists in the Blackwood bloodline. There are far too many key characters with some for it to be without reason. Daenerys, Jon, the Starks.........all have Blackwood blood. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 I think they will all be lost and throw Dawn into it too.    I really hope this is the final showdown and Westeros finds balance and peace.  Don't think I can recall a magic sword ever surviving an epic tale?  

 My fantasy knowledge isn't good enough to answer your last question, but I do think some of the swords will survive. As for Westeros finding balance and peace - you could argue that Jon represents balance.  His blood is both ice and fire; I have pondered recently - and this is probably complete crack-pot, but anyways - if perhaps Jon is the reason that the Others started to move south, and that they started to do so years ago.  We do not know how extensive the Lands of Always Winter are, nor how far away the Others were lying dormant.  Perhaps Jon's birth and that balance of ice and fire woke them - ice and fire fight, and although balance is essential, both will always want to defeat the other. Hmmm. 

[Curled Finger]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:58 PM, dornishdame said:

Yeah, I think it is foreshadowed in the Arianne I spoiler chapter from Winds:

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." (Arianne I in Winds)

We know from the prophetic dreams that Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II Blackfyre have, that dragons in dreams tend to represent Targaryens (though, I think, it is likely that in this instance they ultimately represent dragon-riding Targaryens). I think Teora's dream foreshadows a destructive and costly war - one in which, I think, Young Griff and Arianne will die.    Sort of sad to bring them both in so late in the story to have them die.   In the back of my mind I am hoping that one of them survives for some larger purpose.

I think that Victarion has seen that Euron uses/has used magic in his endeavors and thinks to play Euron at his own game.  As Moqorro has proven himself trustworthy through whatever he did to Victarion's arm, he is willing to take Moqorro's magic on board. There is this section from Feast:

I think Victarion has seen magic grant Euron power, and Victarion wants power over Euron.  Victarion has been loyal his whole life; whatever Balon asked of him, Victarion did. And Euron, I think, shamed Victarion by taking his wife. Victarion wants revenge, and through Moqorro can use what Euron sees as his advantage - magic - against him.   That's sure how it reads.    However, there is that small consideration of Vic's utter madness, too.   As twists go, it doesn't get better than this. 

I think we all tend to have guesses/theories that come off right, and others that are so off-base we wish that they had never crossed our minds! I tend to think Benjen is alive. There really aren't that many options for him - either he is dead, is being held hostage by the Others, is working off-grid to combat the Others, or is the hooded man in Winterfell, working towards a Stark restoration and acting as the 'Stark in Winterfell'.  There are good arguments for and against each scenario.  The one I like at the moment, is that he was captured by the Others and is being held hostage.  

So, that would seem to imply that the Wall has been built upon - as Winterfell has - from the base established by Brandon the Builder. So it is not solely Brandon that has raised/built the Wall. What I think Brandon's importance lies in, is the magics that were used to prevent the Others from coming south of the Wall. I know we spoke recently about protective spells and the Starks, and in my head that theme fits in here. If Brandon's magics prevent the Others from coming south, perhaps there is a way of removing those magics that would reverse the blockade. Blood sacrifice is repeatedly established as the most magical - think of Melisandre and her obsession with King's Blood. The blood of Brandon the Builder lives on in Benjen and the rest of the Starks we meet in the main series.  Perhaps sacrificing Benjen or his blood at the Wall will impact upon the Others' ability to come south? I am not sure, but this is the idea I like best at the moment. 

 Yeah, I tend to use that quote a lot! Partly because it is true - particularly with regards to A Song of Ice and Fire!! There is so much to pick up every time you read/listen, and physically reading the books is by far the better experience - but as someone who avoids audio books and e-readers like they've got greyscale, I would say that!     Oh you young people with good eyes!    For those of us with failing eyesight the audio books are nothing sort of a miracle, but still, there is nothing quite like holding a book in your hands with a tall iced tea on a warm summer day.   I understand completely.  

I think Winds is the moving day installment. Story lines that have previously appeared entirely separate will merge, and we will lose a lot of characters (including POV ones). Many questions will be answered - though I think some new ones will be posed - and I see Winds as perhaps the final book where the Game of Thrones and the War for the Dawn are entirely separate. In Dream, we will reach a stage where those who wish to rule Westeros will have to work to save it. Just conjecture, but I think sort of logical to think that way given we only have two books left. I like both politics and magic, so I am happy with both sides.  I think I have said before that I perceive Winds as having a lot of political meat in it, with the battle over the Iron Throne, only for us to get reminded in a big way right at the end of the book, of what the real war is.  I think we will have Young Griff and others battling over the Iron Throne only for the Wall to be breached right at the end of the book.   I love that, moving day installment.  

And I do hope, as I said before, that we will get some more information on the Blackwoods in Winds. I really liked Hoster Blackwood, but Jaime disappeared with Brienne before we could really get to see much of him. I think that there is some sort of inherent magical ability that exists in the Blackwood bloodline. There are far too many key characters with some for it to be without reason. Daenerys, Jon, the Starks.........all have Blackwood blood.    Just a recent one in an endless list of things we hope for in Winds.    I will tell you this Dame, the mysteries cannot sustain the story.   There needs to be a few payoffs for the reader.    I think the Blackwoods are integral to the underlying disturbances and required balance.   There is a great deal more to them than we have seen.  

 My fantasy knowledge isn't good enough to answer your last question, but I do think some of the swords will survive. As for Westeros finding balance and peace - you could argue that Jon represents balance.  His blood is both ice and fire; I have pondered recently - and this is probably complete crack-pot, but anyways - if perhaps Jon is the reason that the Others started to move south, and that they started to do so years ago.  We do not know how extensive the Lands of Always Winter are, nor how far away the Others were lying dormant.  Perhaps Jon's birth and that balance of ice and fire woke them - ice and fire fight, and although balance is essential, both will always want to defeat the other. Hmmm.    Could be as no one can actually say when The Others started coming around again.   

 

[dornishdame]

On 4/11/2016 at 1:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

Sort of sad to bring them both in so late in the story to have them die.   In the back of my mind I am hoping that one of them survives for some larger purpose.

Sadly I see them both rising high and fast, and then dying in fire and blood. I am reminded of this Jon Connington quote regarding Rhaegar:

I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell. (The Griffin Reborn in Dance)

Although the quote refers to Jon Connington and his obsession with Prince Rhaegar, I think it will also represent the consequences of over-reaching that Aegon and Arianne suffer in Winds. At a push, they may survive until Dream, but regardless of which book they die in, I do not see a happy ending for either of them. 

On 4/11/2016 at 1:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

That's sure how it reads.    However, there is that small consideration of Vic's utter madness, too.   As twists go, it doesn't get better than this. 

I do agree there is a madness to Victarion - particularly in Dance. He has been a loyal and dutiful son and brother to Quellon and Balon respectively, throughout his life.  And now look where it has got him - sailing to the other side of Planetos on a mission for Euron that he does not see ending well for himself.  Something in such loyal people often snaps eventually - I think it has snapped for Victarion, and he wants to use Euron's own weapon against him. 

On 4/11/2016 at 1:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

I love that, moving day installment.  

Yeah, I think that Feast and Dance were about dealing with the consequences of the first three books (for example - the mess that the Riverlands is in following the War of the Five Kings) and setting up new rivalries, alliances and characters. Winds is where that will really start to pay off, I think. The characters and story lines will be merged/pared down to allow a definitive narrative for Dream. As I said, I think there will be a greater concentration on the Game of Thrones as opposed to the War for the Dawn (though the latter will hardly be ignored) - and that makes sense, as more characters are involved in the former.  And then bam! - right at the end of Winds we will be reminded in a brutal way of where the real conflict lies, and the characters that remain will have to live with that and fight for life itself in Dream. 

On 4/11/2016 at 1:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

Just a recent one in an endless list of things we hope for in Winds.    I will tell you this Dame, the mysteries cannot sustain the story.   There needs to be a few payoffs for the reader.    I think the Blackwoods are integral to the underlying disturbances and required balance.   There is a great deal more to them than we have seen.  

And Bloodraven - I should have mentioned him too!!! He also has Blackwood blood. I am hoping we will find out more about Bloodraven in Winds, and hopefully will be able to discover more about greenseeing, warging and Blackwoods. I like the idea that some things remain mysterious - but not everything.  

On 4/11/2016 at 1:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

Could be as no one can actually say when The Others started coming around again.   

Looking at the timeline on the Wiki, I would say that the end of Dance takes place approximately three years after the Prologue in which we first meet the Others with Waymar, Will and Gared.  At this stage, the Others are still gathering their forces and are not pushing on the Wall.  It must have taken them more than three years, I would guess, to reach as far south as they have done thus far.  We cannot, therefore, reasonably estimate preceisely when the Others begun to wake and head south - or why they did so. 

[Curled Finger]

@dornishdame  I learned a new trick!   3 years, 'ey?   That's excellent.   I was thinking it was around 2, but I have seen people say as little as a year or 18 months.  Makes a lot more sense.    I wonder if the entire tale will encompass that 5 years GRRM planned?   The kids are all still fairly young, but at least Jon can be considered "a man grown".   

It occurs to me that you have killed off a POV, Dame.   I think Dorne will have to have a lasting influence on the 7 Kingdoms.   Perhaps not through Arienne, but Trystane.  Do you see Areo at the end of all this blood and fire?  The Sandsnakes?  I've been meaning to ask what your take on Sarella could be?   I'm thinking Sam and Arellas will form some sort of allegiance.  Hard to make predictions when we know so little about her motives and what's really going on at the Citadel.   I recall that Arellas is good in all his studies, but I wonder what his particular area of interest is?   From Doran's comment about leaving Sarella to her game I get the impression she isn't part of Doran's grand design.  So any ideas what she's up to?  Marwyn leaves Sam's care to her so I'm thinking she is at least trusted by him and what does that say about Arellas? Interesting that GRRM would design events with these 2 unlikely characters, Sam and a Sandsnake.  I am hoping she will have to reveal her mission when she reveals her true identity.   

Do you think we will ever know the true reason the Others are returning? 

[dornishdame]

On 4/13/2016 at 3:43 AM, Curled Finger said:

@dornishdame  I learned a new trick!   3 years, 'ey?   That's excellent.   I was thinking it was around 2, but I have seen people say as little as a year or 18 months.  Makes a lot more sense.    I wonder if the entire tale will encompass that 5 years GRRM planned?   The kids are all still fairly young, but at least Jon can be considered "a man grown".   

I'm not sure how long it will end up covering. Certainly Jon is now an adult, as far as Westerosi society is concerned.  That, I think will become important in a sense.  We will, I think, be able to see in Winds that Jon has killed the boy. 

On 4/13/2016 at 3:43 AM, Curled Finger said:

It occurs to me that you have killed off a POV, Dame.   I think Dorne will have to have a lasting influence on the 7 Kingdoms.   Perhaps not through Arienne, but Trystane.  Do you see Areo at the end of all this blood and fire?  The Sandsnakes?  I've been meaning to ask what your take on Sarella could be?   I'm thinking Sam and Arellas will form some sort of allegiance.  Hard to make predictions when we know so little about her motives and what's really going on at the Citadel.   I recall that Arellas is good in all his studies, but I wonder what his particular area of interest is?   From Doran's comment about leaving Sarella to her game I get the impression she isn't part of Doran's grand design.  So any ideas what she's up to?  Marwyn leaves Sam's care to her so I'm thinking she is at least trusted by him and what does that say about Arellas? Interesting that GRRM would design events with these 2 unlikely characters, Sam and a Sandsnake.  I am hoping she will have to reveal her mission when she reveals her true identity.   

Yeah, I do seem to have killed off a POV character, don't I?! And one that I like! I really enjoy reading Arianne's chapters.  I know she gets some flack from the sections of the fandom that aren't fans of the expansion of the plot to the Iron Islands and Dorne in Feast, but I love the vulnerability and insecurity that lies under the surface. Arianne is so pro-active in trying to ensure that she gets what she believes she is entitled to - Dorne - that I think we sometimes ignore the fact that Arianne had spent years prior to this point believing that her father was trying to withhold her rights from her, and seat her brother Quentyn as ruler instead of her.  That has to have a profound impact on a person.  I am not saying that Arianne is a victim, nor do I think that she is perfect.  I do. however, think that we need to look at the greyness of Arianne and how her perception of her father's actions and opinions influence the person she has become. 

Areo Hotah, I think, has the plot armor to survive as long as Doran does, because we need a POV to show us what is happening in Dorne, and Doran's reaction to Arianne's fire and blood death.  After that, who knows? He is so far south that I cannot see him being involved in fighting the Others, for example, but if Daenerys comes to Dorne, then he could meet his end defending either Doran, Trystane, or both. 

Marwyn clearly trusts Alleras, and I do wonder if he realizes just who Alleras actually is.  Alleras is apparently willing to discuss dragons and to accept that they may have returned to the world, and has a good knowledge of Targaryens - one that sometimes makes me wonder if Oberyn had said anything of Daenerys to his daughters. 

"The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

"No riddle." Alleras sipped his wine. The rest of them were quaffing tankards of the fearsomely strong cider that the Quill and Tankard was renowned for, but he preferred the strange, sweet wines of his mother's country. Even in Oldtown such wines did not come cheap.

It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras "the Sphinx." A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.

"No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banners," Armen the Acolyte said firmly. "That was a heraldic charge, no more. Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead."

"Not all," said Alleras. "The Beggar King had a sister."

"I thought her head was smashed against a wall," said Roone.

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men. We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys."

"The Stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" (Prologue in Feast)

And later in the same chapter.............

"Dragonglass," Pate said. "The smallfolk call it dragonglass." Somehow that seemed important.

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ." (Prologue in Feast)

I love that Alleras speaks of the dragon having three heads; this reference seems to be in relation to Rhaegar and his siblings, but it is a re-introduction of something mentioned in Clash, and raises the issue of how the three heads fits into prophecy and whether information on prophecy is available at the Citadel. Alleras's acceptance of magic is evident when Sam arrives at the Citadel:

"Lord Commander Snow sent him away to save his life," he began, hesitantly. He spoke awkwardly of King Stannis and Melisandre of Asshai, intending to stop at that, but one thing led to another and he found himself speaking of Mance Rayder and his wildlings, king's blood and dragons, and before he knew what was happening, all the rest came spilling out; the wights at the Fist of First Men, the Other on his dead horse, the murder of the Old Bear at Craster's Keep, Gilly and their flight, Whitetree and Small Paul, Coldhands and the ravens, Jon's becoming lord commander, the Blackbird, Dareon, Braavos, the dragons Xhondo saw in Qarth, the Cinnamon Wind and all that Maester Aemon whispered toward the end. He held back only the secrets that he was sworn to keep, about Bran Stark and his companions and the babes Jon Snow had swapped. "Daenerys is the only hope," he concluded. "Aemon said the Citadel must send her a maester at once, to bring her home to Westeros before it is too late."

Alleras listened intently. He blinked from time to time, but he never laughed and never interrupted. When Sam was done he touched him lightly on the forearm with a slim brown hand and said, "Save your penny, Sam. Theobald will not believe half of that, but there are those who might. Will you come with me?" (Sam V in Feast)

Sam goes with Alleras, and is led to Marwyn. For events to unfold as they do, Marwyn must have some sort of trust in Alleras.  I can see that the Citadel is generally anti-magic, but that those elements of the Citadel that do band together.  I do see Alleras and Sam coming together in some sort of alliance.  I think this will comprise the involvement of Dorne in the War for the Dawn; the rest of the Sand Snakes - and the rest of Dorne as a whole - is involved in the Game of Thrones and revenge.  Sam needs, I think, to form an alliance with someone already at the Citadel, someone who knows their way around and can therefore help him target his research in the right places. I am not sure that Alleras will reveal he is actually a girl called Sarella - though if it is to anyone, I can see it being Sam, for some reason.  I think Sarella's "game" is to qualify as Maester and then turn round and reveal her true identity; to show that a woman can be as intelligent as a man.  

As for the remainder of the Sand Snakes, I am a bit antsy about Nymeria and Tyene. They are headed for King's Landing, which I see going up in wildfire.  I think they will remain in the capital when Aegon takes it, and he and Arianne marry. Aside from anything else, Arianne will want allies at Court. And the Sand Snakes want vengeance for Oberyn.  As for Obara, I think someone has to die in this confrontation with Darkstar, and while I hope it is Balon Swann, it could equally be Obara, something that I think would give the other Sand Snakes further excuse to act out (they won't be happy if their sister dies in a battle involving a Lannister Kingsguard). 

On 4/13/2016 at 3:43 AM, Curled Finger said:

Do you think we will ever know the true reason the Others are returning? 

Possibly.  The best way for us to uncover that would be to have a POV in the Others camp.......thinking about it, that would be amazing!!!! It would be a Prologue chapter by necessity, but it would be amazing!!!! I think we have much more to learn of the Others, and I anticipate a lot of Others stuff in Dream in particular. 

[Curled Finger]

Back on topic.   Looks like we lose at least 1 Iron Born POV.   Great chapter.  Who's next?

[dornishdame]

On 6/8/2016 at 4:17 AM, Curled Finger said:

Back on topic.   Looks like we lose at least 1 Iron Born POV.   Great chapter.  Who's next?

I loved the chapter too (in the sense that it was well written, not the sense that I loved what Euron was up to!) - and although I essentially agree that we lose Aeron in Winds, I am not yet sure how quickly Euron will put him out of his misery.  He's clearly kept Pyat Pree mutilated but alive for a long time - well, long enough to travel from Qarth to the Iron Islands anyway - and I am sure he will get a kick out of tormenting Aeron, as I suspect he has done for most of Aeron's life.  I wonder if there is something that he wants Aeron to see, or to know of something that Euron is planning to carry out?  Why not kill him straight away as Balon was disposed of?  I can see him dying in Winds, but I think that Aeron may make it a bit of the way through the book. I think we get at least Aeron II and maybe even Aeron III. 

I know I have said before that I thought Asha was for the chop in Winds, but I am starting to reconsider this.  I think that seeing Theon is alive may give her something to live for, and that was my concern - if her story had run its course, then she would be ripe for a good, bloody death.  But Theon coming back to her may change that; even if I do think it unlikely that he makes it through Winds. Theon, though, appears to be at the end of his redemption arc.  He has gone from Theon to Reek to Theon again, and I think that the Northerners will either demand Stannis executes him, or do it themselves.  Stannis believes in justice and that a good act does not wipe out the bad (remember Davos and his fingers?) so I can see him carrying out the execution.  As for Victarion, since I seem to be dealing with the Iron Islands POVs first, I think he is as doomed as Euron wants him to be.  That is to say, very.  So by the end of Winds, I think Asha could very well be our only Iron Islands POV.  So maybe I have moved her into the survival column?  

Now, if we stay in Meereen after Victarion's death, with Barristan, I have to say that I think he will survive until late Winds or early Dream.  I think that he will be the treason for love.  For love of Rhaegar and the Targaryens, I think that Barristan will defect to the man he believes to be his rightful king and Rhaegar's son.  If we look at what Barristan says when he is unmasked in Storm:

"I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—" (Daenerys V in Storm)

Barristan seeks out Daenerys because she is (as far as he knows) the last living Targaryen.  I do wonder sometimes why Illyrio and Varys didn't send him to Aegon instead - think of the legitimacy the support of Barristan the Bold would give them - but I think when he hears that Rhaegar's son has resurfaced in Westeros, he will consider his claim as being superior to Daenerys's.  When he dies will depend on whether he leaves Meereen before Daenerys returns.  If he returns to Westeros, then I think he will die when Daenerys arrives and Chekhov's wildfire goes off in KL. So I think Barristan is a definite possibility for the culled list. 

The two other Meereenese-ish POVs are Tyrion and Daenerys and nothing will convince me that either of these characters will die in Winds. No. Just no.  And to clear up Essos, I really, really, really don't see Arya being killed off in Winds either.  I think she will be back in the Riverlands before the end of the book, picking up Chekhov's wolfpack and perhaps running into the BwB again.  I have said before that I believe Arya needs to see what vengeance truly looks like - Lady Stoneheart.  

Back in Westeros, I will pick up with the other Stark POVs - Bran, Jon and Sansa.  I think all three of them will make it through to the end of Winds.  I think the trend of Bran not having many chapters will continue for the simple reason that he is becoming a hard POV to write without giving too much away.  Sansa still has to slay the giant in a castle made of snow - I think this is LF at Winterfell, and just like Reek had to become Theon again, I think that Alayne needs to become Sansa again.  For me, the question with Jon is more around whether he is back as a POV character.  When Catelyn became Lady Stoneheart, we lost her because she died.  With Jon, I think it will prove to be more complex.  As I think his consciousness will live on in Ghost before returning to his body, I could see a scenario where we get a Melisandre POV dealing with the aftermath (and Jon considered dead) before we then get a 'Ghost' POV (probably a short one) and when Jon is back in his body, we then get our Jon POV back.  

Melisandre I think has a way to go.  I think R'hllor keeps her alive until Dream.  As for Davos, I think he will survive Winds, but I am not yet sure - as is the case with Melisandre - about Dream.  And Sam is another character I cannot see us losing in Winds.  He went to Oldtown for a reason beyond Euron's attack, I am sure.  There has to be something in the Citadel's library that has clues on how to defeat the Others.  And Sam has to find it and tell the world. 

Brienne is a character I am having a tough time reaching a decision on, if I am honest.  I find it hard to pick up on where exactly her arc is taking her.  Will she sacrifice herself in a trial by combat with Jaime? Will she out-live him as suggested by the fact that in his fever dream in Storm, her sword remains alight as the flame on his goes out? It could go either way for her in Winds.

The remaining Lannister POVs are also a mixed bag, for me.  Cersei is due to meet her Valonqar, I think, in Winds.  As was the case with Anne Boleyn, who had a quick peak of power followed by a swift decline, I think that Cersei will win her trial and regain the power she lost and then some (she will have no Uncle Kevan and no Grand Maester Pycelle to hold her back, and I think that the Tyrells will be too busy being concerned about Euron's raiding parties and whether or not they have backed the wrong horse in Tommen over Aegon).  But, when KL is sacked, the first sack will be avenged.  Myrcella and Tommen will be killed in retribution for Elia and Rhaenys, leaving Cersei childless and mad.  And due a meeting with her valonqar.  So Jaime has to live at least as long as Cersei. She sees them leaving the world together:

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it. "He will not lose. Not Jaime. Not with my life at stake." (Cersei X in Feast)

Will that happen?  I am not sure.  But if Jaime is to truly have redemption, then what does it look like?  Is it him protecting Rhaegar's son?  We know from Storm and his fever dream that his failure to protect Elia and her children is the one thing Jaime truly feels guilty about.  Does he have to put himself forward for judgement by Aegon or Daenerys? Not sure.  So I think we definitely say goodbye to Cersei and maybe to Jaime too. 

I said before I thought that Victarion was very doomed.  So, I think, is Jon Connington.  He has a role to play in starting off a greyscale epidemic before he dies, but die in Winds I think he shall.  But not before applying some Tywin-esque rule to Aegon's campaign.  Joining him on #TeamDoomed is Arianne Martell, a character I enjoy reading more every time I pick up ASOIAF.  After years of coveting the prize she thought she was going to be passed over for - Dorne - she will disregard it herself for a bigger prize - Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  And when Aegon goes down, Arianne will go down with him.  She will die in Winds in fire and blood.  

And that brings us finally to Areo Hotah.  I have gone backwards and forwards on Hotah.  I cannot discount the possibility that Obara may desire war enough to join Darkstar's side in the fight against Hotah and Balon Swann.  She wants war and revenge, and if Hotah and Swann dying brings that about I think she would be willing to do it.  That said, he may well survive the fight and return to Doran, and be present when Doran realizes he has picked the wrong side.  Either way, I am leaning towards Hotah not being alive when I read the final page of Winds.  

So, to sum up, POVs I think we will definitely lose in Winds: Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Cersei, Jon Connington, Arianne and Areo. POVs we could also lose/about which I am undecided: Brienne, Barristan, Jaime.

We haven't lost someone I consider to be a major POV character since Catelyn's death at the end of Storm.  So I think we are due to lose at least one.  And of the names above, I consider Theon, Cersei, Jaime and probably Brienne to fall into that category.  Of course, I could be as wrong as Ned is about LF.......