Merging Story Lines

[bemused]

I'll play..a little bit..

It seems to me that GRRM hinted that (or said outright) that Mel and Areo would remain one-offs. But I also believe that he said no new Povs for characters that we haven't met... that leaves room for characters we have met who have had no POV could yet have one of their own.  And of course prologues and epilogues are excluded.

I agree with Nevets that while we may wind up with 13 or close to it by the end of Winds, there could be considerable fluctuation in the meantime.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, bemused said:

I'll play..a little bit..

It seems to me that GRRM hinted that (or said outright) that Mel and Areo would remain one-offs. But I also believe that he said no new Povs for characters that we haven't met... that leaves room for characters we have met who have had no POV could yet have one of their own.  And of course prologues and epilogues are excluded.

I agree with Nevets that while we may wind up with 13 or close to it by the end of Winds, there could be considerable fluctuation in the meantime.

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

My problem with the 13 POV comment is that it is interpreted as 13 for the entire book.  This I find impossible.   As I said above, I have a hard time getting below about 16, and prefer about 18.  I agree that there will be a lot fewer by the end of Winds.  I think the "big 6" are probably safe, and I expect either Theon or Asha to make it, but most of the rest are expendable.  I expect to lose all but Sam, Davos, Brienne, and Arianne, at least as as POVs, and possibly one or two of those.

I honestly doubt Bran has warged Meera, or anyone other than Hodor.  I think she is just upset about her brother, and the overall situation.  She is Bran's connection to the non-magical world, and if there is anything malign about BR or the CotF, I expect that she will discover it and try to protect Bran from its influence.

Dornishdame, I like your suggestion about Sansa learning to warg, but I think it is more likely to be a bird than a dog.  She has many connections to birds.   She is getting closer to Sweetrobin, whose sigil is a falcon.  Littlefinger's sigil is a mockingbird.  And Sandor regularly called her "little bird".  All this suggests to me a connection to birds.  Falcons are also closely connected to humans as they are widely used for hunting, especially by noble girls (like Sansa).  At one point, Arya remembers her mother telling her she could have a hawk one day.

 

 

Wow, I sure got to quote that backward.   Sorry.   As time goes I am realizing that GRRM intentionally messes with his readership.  There is no reason the number in POVs should be any different from any other statement.   The truth is murky at best until the book is in our hands.   The more time that passes the more unlikely it seems to me that we will have anything beyond sample chapters.  As I believe I've stated more than once throughout this topic, it's an old thread created by an unimaginative reader who honestly thought all but 13 of the POVs were going to be killed off.   Because of the time folks like you have spent offering your opinions and ideas my own expectations have changed a great deal for the better.   I enjoy the conversations and all these different views of what has, is and will happen in this series.   Bemused, as an admirer of your work it's a pleasure to have you stop in though I do wish you would have offered some of your insightful views on possibly merging storylines.   You are always an enjoyable read.

Now then Nevets, all above for you as well.  I am black and white until someone like yourself shows me a color.   And you certainly have.   As I confessed my opinion about Bran warging Meera is unpopular, but my reading of that piece remains unchangeable.  It is what it is until it is proven incorrect.   It makes sense to me and resonates with the entire Bran theme as I have read it.   But it is only my humble opinion.  Your alternate read of the circumstances is what I'm most often met with and as that fits with your reading who am I to say you're wrong?   I would like to know if you think Bran is having his 1st crush on Meera and what you make of it at this juncture in the story.  No doubt Dornish Dame will answer you herself.   I've read a good deal about the birds being Sansa's potential warg vehicle.   Personally, I don't care what the creatures is I'd just like to see her gifted in the blood.  I tend to regard Sansa like a younger sister in that I would like to see her safe and enjoying some of the magical gifts her siblings share.   Isn't she part of the pack after all?  

To both Nevets and Bemused, if there are to be additional new POVs who are the most likely candidates for the honors?

[The Egg]

Can I say I don't like the idea of Sansa warging?

She's meant to be different to her siblings and I believe the Starks warging abilities are related to their wolfs: killing Lady was meant to cast Sansa aside to make her closer to the Lannisters than the other Starks (as in the original outline), but even now that the story changed so much it made Sansa being involved in the Game of Thrones more than any of his siblings except Robb (who was never meant to survive), so I think we'll never see her warging. The fact that she's never been in touch with Bran when she prayed in KL Godswood I think proves that, since Jon saw him in his dream long before he reached the cave.

That said, I believe Bran and Sansa could communicate via weirwood trees, if it's him who's trying to reach her, but I believe her magic (if there still is, in her blood) will remain as passive as it was for any other Stark in the previous generations

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, The Egg said:

Can I say I don't like the idea of Sansa warging?

She's meant to be different to her siblings and I believe the Starks warging abilities are related to their wolfs: killing Lady was meant to cast Sansa aside to make her closer to the Lannisters than the other Starks (as in the original outline), but even now that the story changed so much it made Sansa being involved in the Game of Thrones more than any of his siblings except Robb (who was never meant to survive), so I think we'll never see her warging. The fact that she's never been in touch with Bran when she prayed in KL Godswood I think proves that, since Jon saw him in his dream long before he reached the cave.

That said, I believe Bran and Sansa could communicate via weirwood trees, if it's him who's trying to reach her, but I believe her magic (if there still is, in her blood) will remain as passive as it was for any other Stark in the previous generations

The Egg, you are welcomed and encouraged to say whatever you please.   It is the exchange of differing ideas that is so often illuminating in these conversations.  The possibility of Sansa actually being able to warg is a relatively new concept to me as like you, I always saw her as set apart from the rest of the Stark kids.  But I would like her to be able to do this and share in the magic of her bloodline.  I can't rely very heavily on the original outline for any real clues as GRRM has already so obviously changed so much.    I've been thinking about posting a new topic where we can all discuss the obvious change in course certain characters have taken from that outline.    Could be the wolves are the magic element in these kids' warging ability.   All I have for that is Arya doesn't have and hasn't had her wolf for a long time.  I can't help but wonder what would have happened to Grey Wind had he survived despite Robb's death?  The numbers were perfectly matched when those wolves were found--it has to mean something for Sansa.   If the wolves are some sort of psychic shadow for each child then sure, I can see why Sansa is out of luck.  I would just like it to be different and find these kids who have been thrown to the 4 winds united in at least that one special thing,    Maybe just being a Stark is enough and maybe it's just having a wolf that activates the power.   

I wonder if Bran actually making contact with Sansa would be enough magic to jump start Sansa's latent powers.  On the other hand, we don't really know that Sansa ever had this gift at all, do we?   Personally, I'd get a kick out of reading Sansa discover she is a fairy princess of sorts with a power larger than her sweet little self.   

[bemused]

On 2/14/2016 at 10:46 PM, Curled Finger said:

 To both Nevets and Bemused, if there are to be additional new POVs who are the most likely candidates for the honors?

Based on GRRM's remark that Garlan and Willas will have larger parts to play going forward, I'd guess one of them would have a POV .. probably Garlan, if battles are to be described. I'd welcome either one, but ... Garlan is a fighter and seems fair minded. He was one character willing to give Tyrion his due in regard to the Blackwater. Willas is a bookish type who corresponded with Oberyn, and is likely to have discussion with his brother. So Garlan could help advance the plot, and serve as an excellent source of information on the backstory according to Willas.

I think we'll need a POV inside WF, and I don't think it will be Roose. I think GRRM will keep him a mystery for a while longer.. though toward the end of the book, that may change. I have some fairly developed hypotheses about what's going on there, so admittedly, those colour my guesses, and there could be many candidates. I have threads of my own and have participted in others that go into detail, with quotes and exercises in logic, etc., but I'll just give a very abridged summary: 

In my opinion, there is a passage under WF with a magically hidden gate or door similar to the black gate, that only a Stark can open. "There must always be a Stark in WF" is a magical requirement. The CoTF did help Benjen, and he is currently in WF as the hooded man and the nexus for the resistance movement. Men gathered by Manderly and Glover will have journeyed up the White Knife and will enter through the crypts with Benjen's help, to take WF from within (before Stannis can get there, if he should win his battle). Mance has been aided by the resistance, but will not have been told all of their plans or all that they know. Barbrey and Benjen have a history together. Rowan is an Umber (my guess - one of the Greatjon's daughters). Myrtle is The Liddle (credit- redriver). Big Walder knows where the crypts are, and may need to look for a hiding place.

Any of those characters could be possible, but I'm thinking maybe Mance or Manderly? OTOH, someone like Big Walder, as a stand alone POV, would be an excellent outside observer. A once only POV may be best for describing the action without revealing too much, too soon ..?????

I think we'll need someone at the wall to observe Jon's assassination scene (and the fallout) from the outside.. and I'm not sure Mel would be the best for that, because she sees everything so heavily filtered through her own beliefs and motives..I would welcome a POV from Val, or there may be characters present that we're unaware of.. e.g., I'm thinking perhaps, Edd Tollet, or Iron Emmett (Jon had asked for all wildling leaders to be present, and I can't believe that wouldn't have included some representative for the spearwives, since he'd been debating whether to include the spearwives in the Hardhome mission).. GRRM could give us Bowen, Clydas or Satin (or Thorne, who I'm convinced is present), but again, there are secrets in all of their backgrounds, and who knows how soon George will want to reveal them? (He'll have to start revealing some of them in short order, but who knows which ones?)

I think Jon does survive, but not due to Mel's ministrations , so I don't expect any kind of Unjon POV.. or any extended Ghost POV, either. I expect Jon's POV will continue as his complete self (with perhaps a slight memory lapse), due to the strength of his bond with Ghost, possibly aided by wildling medicine (cue Morna White Mask, the warrior witch, who, as a leader, should also be present). 
For those interested in elaboration, see... (hope this link works)

My bet is, Asha will continue as our eyes on Stannis for a while, but I think what follows on from the released Theon chapter, is that Theon will be sent to the wall with Tycho & co (as per the pink letter) .. perhaps after opting to take the black.(He may not have killed Bran and Rickon, but has still committed crimes in northern eyes.) ... GRRM has said that the Theon TWoW chapter takes place before Jon's last chapter in ADWD, and Theon would give us an account of Tycho's party's journey through an extant POV. (I assume that Theon will be correct, and Ramsay will be in pursuit.)

It's possible that a Kingsmoot could come about not only because Theon is alive (maybe at the wall) but also because he has a son with the daughter of the captain of the Myraham (an idea for which I think there are intriguing clues).

I have more thoughts, but I have to break off for now.

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, bemused said:

Based on GRRM's remark that Garlan and Willas will have larger parts to play going forward, I'd guess one of them would have a POV .. probably Garlan, if battles are to be described. I'd welcome either one, but ... Garlan is a fighter and seems fair minded. He was one character willing to give Tyrion his due in regard to the Blackwater. Willas is a bookish type who corresponded with Oberyn, and is likely to have discussion with his brother. So Garlan could help advance the plot, and serve as an excellent source of information on the backstory according to Willas.

I think we'll need a POV inside WF, and I don't think it will be Roose. I think GRRM will keep him a mystery for a while longer.. though toward the end of the book, that may change. I have some fairly developed hypotheses about what's going on there, so admittedly, those colour my guesses, and there could be many candidates. I have threads of my own and have participted in others that go into detail, with quotes and exercises in logic, etc., but I'll just give a very abridged summary: 

In my opinion, there is a passage under WF with a magically hidden gate or door similar to the black gate, that only a Stark can open. "There must always be a Stark in WF" is a magical requirement. The CoTF did help Benjen, and he is currently in WF as the hooded man and the nexus for the resistance movement. Men gathered by Manderly and Glover will have journeyed up the White Knife and will enter through the crypts with Benjen's help, to take WF from within (before Stannis can get there, if he should win his battle). Mance has been aided by the resistance, but will not have been told all of their plans or all that they know. Barbrey and Benjen have a history together. Rowan is an Umber (my guess - one of the Greatjon's daughters). Myrtle is The Liddle (credit- redriver). Big Walder knows where the crypts are, and may need to look for a hiding place.

Any of those characters could be possible, but I'm thinking maybe Mance or Manderly? OTOH, someone like Big Walder, as a stand alone POV, would be an excellent outside observer. A once only POV may be best for describing the action without revealing too much, too soon ..?????

I think we'll need someone at the wall to observe Jon's assassination scene (and the fallout) from the outside.. and I'm not sure Mel would be the best for that, because she sees everything so heavily filtered through her own beliefs and motives..I would welcome a POV from Val, or there may be characters present that we're unaware of.. e.g., I'm thinking perhaps, Edd Tollet, or Iron Emmett (Jon had asked for all wildling leaders to be present, and I can't believe that wouldn't have included some representative for the spearwives, since he'd been debating whether to include the spearwives in the Hardhome mission).. GRRM could give us Bowen, Clydas or Satin (or Thorne, who I'm convinced is present), but again, there are secrets in all of their backgrounds, and who knows how soon George will want to reveal them? (He'll have to start revealing some of them in short order, but who knows which ones?)

I think Jon does survive, but not due to Mel's ministrations , so I don't expect any kind of Unjon POV.. or any extended Ghost POV, either. I expect Jon's POV will continue as his complete self (with perhaps a slight memory lapse), due to the strength of his bond with Ghost, possibly aided by wildling medicine (cue Morna White Mask, the warrior witch, who, as a leader, should also be present). 
For those interested in elaboration, see... (hope this link works)

My bet is, Asha will continue as our eyes on Stannis for a while, but I think what follows on from the released Theon chapter, is that Theon will be sent to the wall with Tycho & co (as per the pink letter) .. perhaps after opting to take the black.(He may not have killed Bran and Rickon, but has still committed crimes in northern eyes.) ... GRRM has said that the Theon TWoW chapter takes place before Jon's last chapter in ADWD, and Theon would give us an account of Tycho's party's journey through an extant POV. (I assume that Theon will be correct, and Ramsay will be in pursuit.)

It's possible that a Kingsmoot could come about not only because Theon is alive (maybe at the wall) but also because he has a son with the daughter of the captain of the Myraham (an idea for which I think there are intriguing clues).

I have more thoughts, but I have to break off for now.

Ah that was terrific, as usual, bemused.  I hope you will be encouraged to come back and expand on any of your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to catch everyone up on your interesting and out of the ordinary ideas.    A few more one off POVs could further the story in many places and it really would be interesting to see Wyllas or Garland's take on things as the Tyrells are a game changer to whomever they ally with.   I agree it is time for some of the Wildling folk magic to come into play even if only to explain their survival so far north. (I would LOVE a Wildling POV)  Our hooded man needs to be revealed just as our favorite missing uncle needs to be.    I think you were the one who substantiated my musing over the misery of reading about Theon's Love Boat voyage with the captain's daughter, so I love it when that comes up.  I'd still like to see Theon be important in Ramsay's downfall and your scenario satisfies that.    I am further hoping that Bran and Theon will have a few more exchanges through the weirwoods--let's get good look inside Theon's recovery and some hint of Bran's reasons for reaching out to him.    As to Winterfell, Dornish Dame has me utterly convinced Bran can tell the story despite my constant nagging about needing to know what's happening inside.  There are lots of blind spots (like additional POVs) and ideas for telling this story.    I'm starting to pay closer attention to whom has not been given a POV thus far in hopes of figuring out why.    Not just Varys or LF, but people like Stannis.    Honestly, I'd love a look inside Tycho's head.   GRRM decided the POV characters could best tell the story, which is a little disconcerting with all we readers don't actually know.  I can't wait to see it unfold.

[Nevets]

On 2/14/2016 at 11:46 PM, Curled Finger said:

 

To both Nevets and Bemused, if there are to be additional new POVs who are the most likely candidates for the honors?

He has said that he does not anticipate adding any new POVs.  Of course, he said that in September 2012 at Chicon 7, so he may well have changed his mind by now  If so, they would be ones needed to get him out of a situation where a location or situation is important with no one to cover it.

I honestly think the battle for Winterfell will not be reported on from inside WF.  I'm not sure if it's important enough for a detailed account.  We just need to know who won and who is still alive.  Stannis's side can be covered by either Theon or Asha.  Jon's situation will likely be covered by Mel, even (or particularly) if she is unreliable.  Edd Tollett, is, however, a legitimate possibility

Highgarden will most likely be covered by someone established.  Sam is a logical possibility to move or visit there from Oldtown, and someone like Jaime or Cersei or Arianne could cover if the main story moves to Highgarden from KL.  I can even see Damphair if the krakens make it that far inland <shudder>.

Two possibilities that I like are Meera and Osha.  If the CotF or BR are up to no good, or Bran needs to send a messenger, Meera could get a POV. And depending on circumstances, Osha might be needed to cover Rickon's story.  

Everywhere else is either not important by itself (Sunspear, Braavos, Vale) or is adequately covered (Riverlands, KL, Meereen)

 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

He has said that he does not anticipate adding any new POVs.  Of course, he said that in September 2012 at Chicon 7, so he may well have changed his mind by now  If so, they would be ones needed to get him out of a situation where a location or situation is important with no one to cover it.

I honestly think the battle for Winterfell will not be reported on from inside WF.  I'm not sure if it's important enough for a detailed account.  We just need to know who won and who is still alive.  Stannis's side can be covered by either Theon or Asha.  Jon's situation will likely be covered by Mel, even (or particularly) if she is unreliable.  Edd Tollett, is, however, a legitimate possibility

Highgarden will most likely be covered by someone established.  Sam is a logical possibility to move or visit there from Oldtown, and someone like Jaime or Cersei or Arianne could cover if the main story moves to Highgarden from KL.  I can even see Damphair if the krakens make it that far inland <shudder>.

Two possibilities that I like are Meera and Osha.  If the CotF or BR are up to no good, or Bran needs to send a messenger, Meera could get a POV. And depending on circumstances, Osha might be needed to cover Rickon's story.  

Everywhere else is either not important by itself (Sunspear, Braavos, Vale) or is adequately covered (Riverlands, KL, Meereen)

 

Thanks Nevets.  It's not crazy to imagine GRRM has either changed his mind or abandoned a plan or any number of things in the past 4 years.  Less than a year ago he dreamed up some great new twist for some unnamed character. 

You know as I recall the Damphair is MIA.    It will be interesting to see where he turns up...and why.    I'm not discounting the Red Priests and their flames yet for sketchy information where we have no eyes nor the glass candles nor Bran.  This is interesting that you bring up Meera as a messenger.   Those without POVs are very suspicious to me right now and I've wondered all along what Meera knows that she hasn't said yet.   Ditto for Jojen.

You and bemused bring Dolorous Edd into the realm of possibility.   Wouldn't that be a gas to see things through his eyes?  Edd was sent away to serve as chief steward at Long Barrow--about half way between Castle Black and Eastwatch.  I'm sure word of Jon Snow's er injury or death will be sent out, but none of these places are exactly close to Castle Black.  How quickly could Edd return to Castle Black? This sort of brings to mind the whole theme of honor--would Edd leave his position?   Will the garrisons or commanders of the other castles?  "Tis precarious times along the Wall and though the murder or serious injury of the LC demands a representative showing for a new vote (it's so hard to keep what I mean straight without actually knowing what the deal is with Jon!) would the news incite more mayhem and madness?  

As events unfold in the north I expect to see more focused attention there and wherever Dany is.   Although I do expect the Riverlands to figure largely in current and future events.   I imagine even Dany will have to head North eventually.   There should only be 3 main stories, Dany, Bran & Jon by the end of Winds so I'm expecting all our players to line up accordingly.    Something has to give at any rate.    

[dornishdame]

On 2/13/2016 at 6:33 PM, Nevets said:

Dornishdame, I like your suggestion about Sansa learning to warg, but I think it is more likely to be a bird than a dog.  She has many connections to birds.   She is getting closer to Sweetrobin, whose sigil is a falcon.  Littlefinger's sigil is a mockingbird.  And Sandor regularly called her "little bird".  All this suggests to me a connection to birds.  Falcons are also closely connected to humans as they are widely used for hunting, especially by noble girls (like Sansa).  At one point, Arya remembers her mother telling her she could have a hawk one day.

I think that there are arguments to be made for both birds and dogs - I mentioned dogs because of the Varamyr chapter that gives us so much on the subject of warging. That said, the more I think about it, I am not sure that I can see/want to see Sansa warging at all. I think I said in my last post that I see Sansa as being - of all Ned and Cat's children - the one most connected to the Faith of the Seven. I also see her as the most Southron of the five. Perhaps that has something to do with her losing her wolf so quickly (I know Arya separated from Nymeria at around the same time, but Nymeria lived; Lady did not). Her using courtesies as armor, her style of living......it seems to me to fit more with the Tully side of her than the Stark. We are told that she looks a lot like a younger version of her mother, and I think that Sansa embodies the Southron lady that Cat was trying to raise. I am not saying that Arya is completely Stark and Sansa completely Tully - both have elements of both sides of the family (we even hear of Lyanna sniffling at a sad song, so she clearly shares some of Sansa's sensibilities to a degree) - just that Sansa tends far more towards her mother's heritage than her father's. And I think that might end up being important as far as warging is concerned. 

On 2/14/2016 at 2:09 PM, The Egg said:

Can I say I don't like the idea of Sansa warging?

She's meant to be different to her siblings and I believe the Starks warging abilities are related to their wolfs: killing Lady was meant to cast Sansa aside to make her closer to the Lannisters than the other Starks (as in the original outline), but even now that the story changed so much it made Sansa being involved in the Game of Thrones more than any of his siblings except Robb (who was never meant to survive), so I think we'll never see her warging. The fact that she's never been in touch with Bran when she prayed in KL Godswood I think proves that, since Jon saw him in his dream long before he reached the cave.

That said, I believe Bran and Sansa could communicate via weirwood trees, if it's him who's trying to reach her, but I believe her magic (if there still is, in her blood) will remain as passive as it was for any other Stark in the previous generations

And I think that the loss of Lady is another way of isolating Sansa in King's Landing after Ned has been executed, and Arya has fled the Red Keep. I need to go back to re-read Sansa's chapters where she prays in the King's Landing Godswood to try and figure out if there are any signs I have missed out previously that Bran has contacted her. Or, at the very least, attempted to do so. I did find this nugget in Eddard V in Thrones:

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

Whether that dream was an attempt by Bran to contact her that we do not properly interpret because news of it comes through Ned's POV and not Sansa's, I am not sure. But it is something I will be on the lookout for next time I do a re-read! Though sidebar: the "dragon's breath" makes me think of someone with Targaryen blood and a link to weirwood trees: Bloodraven. Not sure what that means, though, or if I am just overthinking things. Which is probably the case. 

On 2/15/2016 at 6:18 AM, Curled Finger said:

I can't help but wonder what would have happened to Grey Wind had he survived despite Robb's death?  

While we never have a Robb POV chapter, I sort of get the impression from the little we know that he had a very deep connection with Grey Wind - and that he possibly warged Grey Wind at the end of his life. Aside from what we hear from Catelyn and others about Grey Wind taking to the battlefield alongside Robb, there is this moment between Robb and Bran in Thrones, before he goes south with his army:

"I don't want to race." Bran looked around for the direwolves. Both had vanished into the wood. "Did you hear Summer howling last night?"

"Grey Wind was restless too," Robb said. His auburn hair had grown shaggy and unkempt, and a reddish stubble covered his jaw, making him look older than his fifteen years. "Sometimes I think they know things … sense things …" Robb sighed. "I never know how much to tell you, Bran. I wish you were older."

"I'm eight now!" Bran said. "Eight isn't so much younger than fifteen, and I'm the heir to Winterfell, after you."

While there is no guarantee that he is talking about warging - or anything close to it - I think that Robb clearly sees the power in the direwolves, but cannot express it to Bran. Clearly he does not realize just how advanced a warg Bran is. Robb might ignore Catelyn's warnings about people Grey Wind doesn't like, but we see Jon make the exact same mistake when he ignores Melisandre's advice about keeping his wolf close. Ghost is tetchy throughout the latter part of Dance, but Jon doesn't act on it. In the end he puts it down to the presence of Borroq and his boar, but Ghost's tetchiness predates their arrival. 

Interestingly, one of the main arguments a lot of readers put forth for Jon warging during his stabbing is the fact that he says Ghost's name (yes, I know there are other factors such as not feeling the fourth knife, but stay with me for a moment). Let us compare Robb's last words with those we hear from Jon in his last POV chapter in Dance:

"Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself . . . if not for me, for Jeyne."

"Jeyne?" Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. "Mother," he said, "Grey Wind . . ."

"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here." (Catelyn VII in Storm)

And then........

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …(Jon XIII in Dance)

After coming across Summer at Queenscrown, and the wolf saving him from the wildlings he was with, Jon contemplates whether some part of his brothers lived on in their wolves. I think that Robb possibly could have warged Grey Wind at the end of his life. But Grey Wind being killed that same night precludes us, I think, from making any firm assessment. The reality is that we sadly have too little information. 

I do think that warging and the skills that these children have will come to be important in Winds. And I wonder if the growth of Daenerys's dragons may also help them as well. With magic in general coming back into the world, it will be interesting to see if this has an impact on the powers the Stark children possess. 

12 hours ago, bemused said:

Based on GRRM's remark that Garlan and Willas will have larger parts to play going forward, I'd guess one of them would have a POV .. probably Garlan, if battles are to be described. I'd welcome either one, but ... Garlan is a fighter and seems fair minded. He was one character willing to give Tyrion his due in regard to the Blackwater. Willas is a bookish type who corresponded with Oberyn, and is likely to have discussion with his brother. So Garlan could help advance the plot, and serve as an excellent source of information on the backstory according to Willas.

I have to say, I really do like this idea. Having already met Garlan, we do have some measure of him, and one place I have thought for a while we are really missing a POV is inside the Tyrell camp. We need to find out what exactly Loras has been doing on Dragonstone (if he is still there, as we really only have the word of Aurane Waters for what happened to Loras when they stormed Dragonstone), and we need to see what is happening with the Ironborn raids. Sam can only tell us so much from Oldtown, and I cannot see him on a battlefield, bless him. While I have said before that Bran, with his ever-developing skills, may be able to tell us some of what is going on through the weirnet, I do not think these sort of battles qualify - not yet, anyway. I cannot see him having those sort of skills so early in his greenseeing. A Garlan POV - even if it is a one-off, as Arys Oakheart's was - would be of so much benefit to the story, and allow an expansion of the story to be told. 

I should also add at this stage that I have read your posts on Jon the Berserker (though I don't recall that I ever posted on the thread myself) - and completely agree with what you have said there. And there is definitely something going on with the Winterfell crypts and the idea that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. It is more than just a saying. There is a magical force behind it, and sadly I think some of the Stark knowledge on magic has been lost over the last generation or so. 

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah that was terrific, as usual, bemused.  I hope you will be encouraged to come back and expand on any of your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to catch everyone up on your interesting and out of the ordinary ideas.    A few more one off POVs could further the story in many places and it really would be interesting to see Wyllas or Garland's take on things as the Tyrells are a game changer to whomever they ally with.   I agree it is time for some of the Wildling folk magic to come into play even if only to explain their survival so far north. (I would LOVE a Wildling POV)  Our hooded man needs to be revealed just as our favorite missing uncle needs to be.    I think you were the one who substantiated my musing over the misery of reading about Theon's Love Boat voyage with the captain's daughter, so I love it when that comes up.  I'd still like to see Theon be important in Ramsay's downfall and your scenario satisfies that.    I am further hoping that Bran and Theon will have a few more exchanges through the weirwoods--let's get good look inside Theon's recovery and some hint of Bran's reasons for reaching out to him.    As to Winterfell, Dornish Dame has me utterly convinced Bran can tell the story despite my constant nagging about needing to know what's happening inside.  There are lots of blind spots (like additional POVs) and ideas for telling this story.    I'm starting to pay closer attention to whom has not been given a POV thus far in hopes of figuring out why.    Not just Varys or LF, but people like Stannis.    Honestly, I'd love a look inside Tycho's head.   GRRM decided the POV characters could best tell the story, which is a little disconcerting with all we readers don't actually know.  I can't wait to see it unfold.

A regular wildling POV is something I have never contemplated (though now I cannot think why that would be the case) - by which I mean someone more than Varamyr, who was a one-off. That said, I think it would be of great benefit to the story. As we have discussed over the last few posts, we get so much information from Varamyr's single chapter. It would be cool to get a whole arc of wildling chapters (though, sadly, I don't believe we will in the end) - and my wish for that would be Val, who I suspect has masses of knowledge relating to wildling magic and may very well be involved in the return of Jon Snow. 

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. (Jon III in Dance)

And as Azor Ahai must be born amidst salt and smoke.....the salt could represent Val and the smoke Melisandre and her nightfires (I'm not completely sold on Jon as Azor Ahai and have some crakpotty thoughts on it. Sort of). But I digress. Though, in locating that quote, the full paragraph is interesting and may have some foreshadowing:

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way. Eastwatch reported savage storms upon the narrow sea. I meant to keep them safe. Did I feed them to the crabs instead? Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood. (Jon III in Dance)

Jon may not have fed them to the crabs, but Aemon did die on the high seas; Ygritte may not have died with an arrow Jon fired in her, but could he have made that arrow? Or, is it simply a reference to her death being caused in part by their relationship - she was looking for Jon and did not notice her killer? Sam drowning could foreshadow Sam being caught up in an Ironborn attack on Oldtown or another part of the Reach (perhaps fatally, though I do not want that to be the case) - remember Jojen dreaming of the sea coming to Winterfell? It is Gilly that puzzles me, though, as the only other time I can think of someone weeping blood is Ned's feverish dream in Thrones when he thinks of Lyanna's statue weeping blood. Will she fall pregnant with Sam's child and die in childbed as Lyanna is believe by many to have done? I don't know. Chances are that I am looking into this in far too much depth!!!! As well as digressing from my point that a regular wildling POV would be great.......and please, please, please let it be Val!! If she and Melisandre were both to be involved in Jon's return, then it would be interesting to see it from both perspectives. 

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jon's situation will likely be covered by Mel, even (or particularly) if she is unreliable.  Edd Tollett, is, however, a legitimate possibility

Can I vote for a Dolorous Edd POV? Please? I think that all hell is about to break loose at the Wall. Jon was the glue holding together a very shaky coalition, and without him the Watchmen and wildlings may see their imposed and uneasy truce slip away very quickly. I think it would be great to have a POV in all camps (sort of like Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan in Meereen and Sansa, Tyrion and Davos at the Blackwater) - so maybe Val representing the wildlings, Dolorous Edd the Watch (I would prefer to have someone loyal to Jon, and love Edd) and Melisandre the Stannis faction. 

While this thread is ostensibly about merging story lines (something I think will happen in Winds as more and more characters fall by the wayside.....we could be in for a bit of a cull before the battle against the Others in Dream) I seem somehow to have a post that has turned into a request for more POV characters, rather than discussing ways to cut them down. Hmmm, not quite sure how that happened........

[bemused]

Curled finger, Nevets, dornishdame ..
I'm just going to address a few things at random..

Castle Black..
I suppose I wouldn't mind Mel's view of things at the wall, as long as she keeps her mitts off Jon (Avert! Avert!) But, Edd - As I said, I can't believe that none of the spearwives would have been summoned to the meeting, since they might be needed to go to Hardhome (they are not NW, and Jon couldn't simply order them) Edd has been in charge of transport between CB and Long Barrow. I believe that Iron Emmett was given command because the spearwives would initially have more respect for a renowned fighter. To me, it's only logical that a Long Barrow contingent (perhaps Edd, Emmett and Black Maris?) would be at CB - just not specifically noted by Jon. We also have Edd's dream that he was LC .. he's served as Jon's steward, and I think he's someone Jon would put in charge in his absence. 

Morna, a leader who commands a fort, was no farther away than Tormund. She should have been there, and may have been with Val before the meeting ( e.g., I don't think Toregg was in Val's tower for a milkmaid, or for courting Val. I think Val is a spiritual leader / seer and was being kept informed).. and/or.. If Morna was in the shieldhall without her mask, she wouldn't stand out.

Of course Flint and Norrey were still there (Jon noticed northmen among those pouring out of the buildings to see what was going on) but I don't know how they'd do as POVs.

We don't know if anyone let Ghost and Mormont's raven (Raven) out, or if, together, they could have  found their way out (depending on what kind of latch the door or window shutters had). So it's not impossible that Bran could have a distant view of the action. (Raven-> Bloodraven-> Bran through the weirnet?) ... Still, I'd prefer a person who was right there, and that might suit George's purposes better.

Winterfell..
I suppose Bran could cover WF, but I don't think it would be as exciting as if it was covered by someone in the thick of things. I think it's equally (if not more) important to the story going forward than Stannis' battle, and would give us a better picture of just how all encompassing the northern resistance movement is. Besides, it would give a more direct view of what happens to Roose ...how he escapes to still be a threat, as I assume he will. If there is to be an end to the "ancient enmity" between Stark and Bolton, it might be better played out at the Dreadfort.
Back to Bran .. will he really be everywhere at once (yet)?  I ask because..

Theon...
I feel sure Theon will be taken to the tree. Bran likely stopped watching through the WF heart tree and followed on to Stannis' camp. There is a raven pecking at the corpse of one of the "burnt offerings", just before Tycho arrives ... and soon after, I'm sure we witness Bran and Bloodraven inhabiting Maester Tybald's ravens.

Here, I want to diverge a little from dornishdame's thoughts on Bran skinchanging people. I don't know if George will ever make some reasonable excuse in the case of Hodor ... It is possible - like a child who fears water gradually being taught to lose their fear and learn to swim. Being thrown in at the deep end is not the best beginning, but at Queenscrown and later, outside the cave, it was a necessity. For all we know, depending on whether Bran is to ever leave the cave, even his selfish exploring might prove to be vital, and Hodor's fear might dissipate. 

OTOH, Theon's particular mental state, his acceptance of the supernatural and desire to communicate with the old gods, might make him a willing vessel, which I think makes a huge initial difference. It wouldn't even be a strange idea to Theon, knowing of Aeron's claim that the drowned god speaks through him. It could be a religious experience, for Theon. The difference for us would be that we would know that someone actually was speaking through Theon, whereas with Aeron , we can reasonably doubt ..

Without taking this sideways into a pink letter discussion, I think Stannis wrote the original pink letter which was then intercepted and re-forged by the conspirators at the wall (Thorne providing additional text). This would require Bloodraven or Bran (I think Bran) to fly that raven north, since on it's own, it would only fly to WF or the Dreadfort. (Assuming Stannis does want to send Roose a false report of his death, the 2nd raven going to WF would not need guidance. Bloodraven's attention could turn anywhere, probably CB.) 

Sansa...
I think the skinchanging ability is awakened in Starks by direwolves and only by direwolves... but once it's been awakened, they can, of course, skinchange other animals. Sansa's ability has been retarded by losing Lady so early, and then being kept cooped up in the Red Keep, without much exposure to animals. Still, her bond had been made, and she seemed on the verge of a breakthrough with the old hound at LF's hold, but then was whisked off to the Eyrie, where no horses or dogs could be kept.

I hoped that after the descent from the Eyrie, Sansa would have more access to animals. I still have hope, depending how long she'll be there. I can see the possibility of riding out with hawks and hounds and the possibility of being gifted with either, or both.. While I doubt she'll become as adept as some of her siblings, I imagine there will still be some development for her. Then too, I don't know how much she'll get around in the Vale, but if anyone keeps a godswood there, surely Bronze Yohn would

At the same time, I do see her Whent heritage as being important , and I even wonder if a bit of Lothston blood doesn't survive in the Whents, who once served the Lothstons (and thus, in Sansa). .. There's a whole wealth of symbolism evoking Harrenhall & environs in Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen, the "mad" mouse... Red hair like "mad" Danelle Lothston, who we see allied with Bloodraven in The Mystery Knight... Shadrich's white mouse with red eyes evoking the old gods..."shady glen" perhaps related to the Isle of Faces, with it's weirwoods ... and even Shadrich's seemingly innocent joke in the "Alayne" chapter about a winged mouse ( which = fledermaus = bat). I can't believe his interest in her boils down to "a bag of dragons". 

Back later, but I too, would love a Val or Edd POV.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I think that there are arguments to be made for both birds and dogs -  The creature vehicle shouldn't matter, should it?   The gift is the gift.   Sansa either has the gift or she does not.    It may serve the entire story for her to never experience any magical connections.    I'd just like it if she were more "pack" with her sibs.  

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."  Really nice!

- I think that Robb clearly sees the power in the direwolves, but cannot express it to Bran. Clearly he does not realize just how advanced a warg Bran is.. It was a shame not to know if Robb shared the same bond with Grey Wind as his brothers and Arya.   I was musing along the lines of what does a magic wolf do without his warg?  Is there any way Grey Wind might have established a connection with Sansa, being alone?

I do think that warging and the skills that these children have will come to be important in Winds. And I wonder if the growth of Daenerys's dragons may also help them as well. With magic in general coming back into the world, it will be interesting to see if this has an impact on the powers the Stark children possess.    Dame, it's never occurred to me that the powers would grow with the magical beasts.    This is beyond cool.  

...one place I have thought for a while we are really missing a POV is inside the Tyrell camp.   True that.   Mace can't be as much a fool as he seems.   What is Marg's real game in all this? The elder Tyrell sons appear to be honorable men.   Hard to imagine Mace is such a bumbler yet still managed to raise good men.  Perhaps there is more to him than meets the eye and perhaps it is their mother's Hightower influence that made them what they are.  At any rate, I would like to know too! 

At this point I screwed up the quote but would like to add that Jon The Berserker was a classic with a great deal of intriguing information and speculation. 

It would be cool to get a whole arc of wildling chapters .   Heck yeah!

Can I vote for a Dolorous Edd POV? Please? I think that all hell is about to break loose at the Wall. Jon was the glue holding together a very shaky coalition, and without him the Watchmen and wildlings may see their imposed and uneasy truce slip away very quickly. I think it would be great to have a POV in all camps (sort of like Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan in Meereen and Sansa, Tyrion and Davos at the Blackwater) - so maybe Val representing the wildlings, Dolorous Edd the Watch (I would prefer to have someone loyal to Jon, and love Edd) and Melisandre the Stannis faction.  Beginning to look like a unanimous vote on Edd--I will 2nd all your choices.

While this thread is ostensibly about merging story lines (something I think will happen in Winds as more and more characters fall by the wayside.....we could be in for a bit of a cull before the battle against the Others in Dream) I seem somehow to have a post that has turned into a request for more POV characters, rather than discussing ways to cut them down. Hmmm, not quite sure how that happened...Ostensibly yes, but it has taken on a life of its own.  I couldn't be happier about the way this thing has gone.  We have so much to consider in so many areas.

 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Curled finger, Nevets, dornishdame ..
I'm just going to address a few things at random..

Castle Black..
I suppose I wouldn't mind Mel's view of things at the wall, as long as she keeps her mitts off Jon (Avert! Avert!) But, Edd - As I said, I can't believe that none of the spearwives would have been summoned to the meeting, since they might be needed to go to Hardhome (they are not NW, and Jon couldn't simply order them) Edd has been in charge of transport between CB and Long Barrow. I believe that Iron Emmett was given command because the spearwives would initially have more respect for a renowned fighter. To me, it's only logical that a Long Barrow contingent (perhaps Edd, Emmett and Black Maris?) would be at CB - just not specifically noted by Jon. We also have Edd's dream that he was LC .. he's served as Jon's steward, and I think he's someone Jon would put in charge in his absence.   Right, keep her mauly paws off him.   Edd would be not only a hoot for those of us who are fans of his wicked sense of humor, but to see this steadfast 2nd in command knowing his loyalties and that he at least understands Jon's ideals could be the thing to save the NW.

Morna, a leader who commands a fort, was no farther away than Tormund. She should have been there, and may have been with Val before the meeting ( e.g., I don't think Toregg was in Val's tower for a milkmaid, or for courting Val. I think Val is a spiritual leader / seer and was being kept informed).. and/or.. If Morna was in the shieldhall without her mask, she wouldn't stand out.  Morna is a witch in her own right.  This could be shaping up to be a battle of the magic women. 

Of course Flint and Norrey were still there (Jon noticed northmen among those pouring out of the buildings to see what was going on) but I don't know how they'd do as POVs.  

We don't know if anyone let Ghost and Mormont's raven (Raven) out, or if, together, they could have  found their way out (depending on what kind of latch the door or window shutters had). So it's not impossible that Bran could have a distant view of the action. (Raven-> Bloodraven-> Bran through the weirnet?) ... Still, I'd prefer a person who was right there, and that might suit George's purposes better.  I have never considered the raven in anything.  Surely BR or Bran can communicate with Ghost?  Oh man, I can't wait to hear the 1st words out of the bird's beak.

Winterfell..
I suppose Bran could cover WF, but I don't think it would be as exciting as if it was covered by someone in the thick of things. I think it's equally (if not more) important to the story going forward than Stannis' battle, and would give us a better picture of just how all encompassing the northern resistance movement is. Besides, it would give a more direct view of what happens to Roose ...how he escapes to still be a threat, as I assume he will. If there is to be an end to the "ancient enmity" between Stark and Bolton, it might be better played out at the Dreadfort.  I'm thinking Roose will make it to the end.   I don't expect Ramsay to be so durable.  And what happens to Roose will be interesting if not completely illuminating.

Back to Bran .. will he really be everywhere at once (yet)?  I ask because..

Theon...
I feel sure Theon will be taken to the tree. Bran likely stopped watching through the WF heart tree and followed on to Stannis' camp. There is a raven pecking at the corpse of one of the "burnt offerings", just before Tycho arrives ... and soon after, I'm sure we witness Bran and Bloodraven inhabiting Maester Tybald's ravens.

Here, I want to diverge a little from dornishdame's thoughts on Bran skinchanging people. I don't know if George will ever make some reasonable excuse in the case of Hodor ... It is possible - like a child who fears water gradually being taught to lose their fear and learn to swim. Being thrown in at the deep end is not the best beginning, but at Queenscrown and later, outside the cave, it was a necessity. For all we know, depending on whether Bran is to ever leave the cave, even his selfish exploring might prove to be vital, and Hodor's fear might dissipate.  All experience is relative.  It's got to be crucial for Bran to learn by error as much as experience.

OTOH, Theon's particular mental state, his acceptance of the supernatural and desire to communicate with the old gods, might make him a willing vessel, which I think makes a huge initial difference. It wouldn't even be a strange idea to Theon, knowing of Aeron's claim that the drowned god speaks through him. It could be a religious experience, for Theon. The difference for us would be that we would know that someone actually was speaking through Theon, whereas with Aeron , we can reasonably doubt ..    Brilliant point here.  I wonder if Theon will be restored in any way from an experience of this nature or if it will drive him completely over the edge.  

Without taking this sideways into a pink letter discussion, I think Stannis wrote the original pink letter which was then intercepted and re-forged by the conspirators at the wall (Thorne providing additional text). This would require Bloodraven or Bran (I think Bran) to fly that raven north, since on it's own, it would only fly to WF or the Dreadfort. (Assuming Stannis does want to send Roose a false report of his death, the 2nd raven going to WF would not need guidance. Bloodraven's attention could turn anywhere, probably CB.)   I can't discern BR or Bran in any of the birds or animals.   I think it's safe to name BR as the warg in Mormont's bird if for nothing else but the amount of time it's been squawking.   You seem to have devised certain tasks for both of them which is fascinating.   It makes sense Bran would take on the navigational duties as he seems stronger than BR.    Is there some method for determining the ID of the warg inhabiting a raven?  

Sansa...
I think the skinchanging ability is awakened in Starks by direwolves and only by direwolves... but once it's been awakened, they can, of course, skinchange other animals. Sansa's ability has been retarded by losing Lady so early, and then being kept cooped up in the Red Keep, without much exposure to animals. Still, her bond had been made, and she seemed on the verge of a breakthrough with the old hound at LF's hold, but then was whisked off to the Eyrie, where no horses or dogs could be kept.  There is hope in this.

I hoped that after the descent from the Eyrie, Sansa would have more access to animals. I still have hope, depending how long she'll be there. I can see the possibility of riding out with hawks and hounds and the possibility of being gifted with either, or both.. While I doubt she'll become as adept as some of her siblings, I imagine there will still be some development for her. Then too, I don't know how much she'll get around in the Vale, but if anyone keeps a godswood there, surely Bronze Yohn would  I want Sansa to be pack.   I expected the Vale was devoid of weirwood trees.  I want to see what she thinks of being so much more than she's being trained to be.  Will it make her stronger?  What could she do with her powers in the Vale and company of Frickin' Little Finger?

At the same time, I do see her Whent heritage as being important , and I even wonder if a bit of Lothston blood doesn't survive in the Whents, who once served the Lothstons (and thus, in Sansa). .. There's a whole wealth of symbolism evoking Harrenhall & environs in Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen, the "mad" mouse... Red hair like "mad" Danelle Lothston, who we see allied with Bloodraven in The Mystery Knight... Shadrich's white mouse with red eyes evoking the old gods..."shady glen" perhaps related to the Isle of Faces, with it's weirwoods ... and even Shadrich's seemingly innocent joke in the "Alayne" chapter about a winged mouse ( which = fledermaus = bat). I can't believe his interest in her boils down to "a bag of dragons".    Gotta love the detectives--it's so easy to lose track of the relatives and so much you pick up on so naturally.   As a person who has attempted to find these obscure hints and failed miserably, my hat's off to you and your eagle-eye.

Back later, but I too, would love a Val or Edd POV.  Can't wait to see what else is on your mind, bemused. 

 

[Nevets]

I am skeptical of the notion that we will get a lot of info from Bran.  George doesn't seem like the kind of writer who will go "I need to see what is up in [Winterfell, the Reach, ToJ,etc.], I'll just let Bran see it."  If Bran "sees" anything, it is likely to be fragmentary and not easily interpreted.  Anything else, is, frankly, too easy and kind of cheesy.  That's all I really have for now.

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I am skeptical of the notion that we will get a lot of info from Bran.  George doesn't seem like the kind of writer who will go "I need to see what is up in [Winterfell, the Reach, ToJ,etc.], I'll just let Bran see it."  If Bran "sees" anything, it is likely to be fragmentary and not easily interpreted.  Anything else, is, frankly, too easy and kind of cheesy.  That's all I really have for now.

 

I've been thinking about seeing so many things through Bran's eyes.   He's a fairly well developed little guy with opinions and desires.  I think it would be interesting to see how he would interpret the things he sees with his little prince's eyes while still knowing so much more than he can express.   It really wouldn't be a bad way to tell a story GRRM wouldn't want to give a lot up on.  Sort of like if Jon had been with Robb instead of Cat we could have seen all that through his lens and maybe caught on to Roose earlier.   Cat didn't see it coming where Jon might have.   So we got it from Cat's perspective which actually hid quite a bit from all of us.  You get a blind spot from Bran discussing it with BR and I bet it would be utterly intriguing.   Bran seeing the dragons or The Crow's Eye, BR's reaction.  Bran seeing the crypts or Lady Dustin, Jojen's reaction.   You see where I'm going with it.  I know we couldn't possibly get the whole story as none of this is written that way.   We work for everything we get in this series.   I just think with a fairly innocent child like Bran who isn't broken like Arya you could get some really neat stuff from him and his companions.  Nevets, Bran could even be the vehicle to introduce a COTF opinion on a few things.  I'd dig a COTF comment about HR, The Green Men, Targs, Roose Bolton, the NK or even A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell and this might be the way to get it.  If BR is what I at least think he is, he's been working on this for a very long time and he could explain what Bran's really seeing at the TOJ--prophesy included.  But yeah, an omniscient POV from Bran wouldn't be cool at all--this fragmentary thing could be very cool though.    

[bemused]

I agree about Bran. I hope he sees some action, not just visions. In the meantime..

I've taken myself off on a tangent, thinking about Sansa and ..TA-DA! ..merging storylines.
I have this thing.. a feeling, a suspicion, a what-have-you .. about the old magical bloodlines coming together to stand against the magic of the Others. And it dovetails with a thing I think GRRM is doing where the matrilineal bloodline can have equal importance with the bloodline of the father (or more In some cases) ...Jon is just the most obvious case, and only because R+L=J has been discussed and delved into for so long. 

Digression I:

Spoiler

This has become an obvious political reality {not magical}  in the case of the Mormonts, since Jorah is exiled and seems unlikely to have any progeny. I've also been of the opinion for a number of years, that Tormund was Maege's choice of partner .. she raised the daughters, Tormund raised the sons... but in spite of Tormund and Alyanne's jokes about it, I don't think that the Mormonts are actually skinchangers.)

Anyway, Sansa : I said in my last post, that it's possible that some Lothston blood has crept down through the Whents. (That the Whents participated in extinguishing the Lothstons wouldn't rule this out.) ... In the present, Tywin's forces pushed Shella Whent out of her seat and gave it over to a string of horrible commanders, using it as a base to rape and pillage throughout the Riverlands and eventually granting it to LF (who has no intention of going there)... but it actually could be Sansa's by right of blood, depending on whether Edmure is ever re-instated at Riverrun, and if the Lannisters' b.s. grants were ever declared invalid. I've no idea if she would ever want to take it, or to live there, but it's the allegiances of her past relations and possible past relations that interest me, here. Whents - Rhaegar over Aerys, but still, Targaryen.. Lothston -Targaryen, after Manfred's brief support for, then betrayal of  Daemon Blackfyre (if he wasn't a catspaw all along).

Digression II:

Spoiler

So much of this backstory is shrouded, I'm reserving judgement on just how mad Danelle was, and whether, or to what degree, she was using the "black arts"...I think it's quite likely that we can rule out eating children and bathing in blood... We saw her with Bloodraven, who was also branded as a sorcerer. Some of what was said of him is true, some probably not. Maekar had a prickly relationship with Bloodraven , and TWoIaF tells us Maekar thought Danelle, with her madness and sorcery was "causing chaos". Causing chaos might have been the important bit in Maekar's eyes.. OTOH, BR was Maekar's hand, so he would have known... I feel there are some important details, here, hidden in the murk.. In the present timeline, BR is acting to support, recruit and watch out for Starks, notably Bran and Jon, in whom the Stark and Targaryen bloodlines come together, but I'm sure the other Starks have his attention as well.

Stay with me, I think this is going somewhere... ...  I've seen quite a bit of speculation to the effect that Sansa could be destined to marry Aegon.. that somehow LF, through various machinations, would hope to interest him in Sansa on the strength of Sansa's claim to WF.. or something to that effect, merging those two storylines. If Aegon is any kind of a Targaryen at all (and he may not be), I think he'd be a Blackfyre, so I'd think BR would be working to influence Sansa to avoid this, in any way he could.

Sansa herself, doesn't want to be wanted for her claim alone, and with the  political education she's been getting, would be keenly aware that if her claim to WF was upheld, WF would pass through her to her husband's family. I'm very sure there's enough Stark left in her to recoil at the idea.

Besides, I think the Riverlands will be calling to her. There's a lot, personally, for her to resolve, and lessons to be learned there... Sandor, LSH, (and, wild surmise, perhaps a bond with Dog?) There's maybe news of Arya through Gendry, while Brienne (and maybe even Jaime) could learn the truth about Joffrey's death from her... lots of possibilities. And there would be ways to put Sansa's growing political savvy to use...

I love the Blackfish, and he can definitely draw men to himself, but he's really best as a general and wise older adviser. Men with brains, strategically placed, may be able to wrest RR away from Emmon Frey.. and Edmure may be rescued... but he hasn't been shown to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, or shown very great promise as a leader (somehow, I can't want him to become a POV).. but he could keep the Tully line going. .. Blackfish hasn't met Sansa, but he would know her, because as we've been told repeatedly, she is so like Cat. He's someone who could honestly love her, in a healthy way, for that resemblance. (I don't think Petyr does, truly. I think he would have wanted to complete the ruin of Cat and her family himself and let her know it before she died.. and I think that motivation would carry through to Sansa.)

So, Petyr  carried out a Bael-ish (but not very Bael-like) abduction of Sansa (not really a rescue, because he set it up so that she would be incriminated in Joffrey's death). My strong suspicion is that The Mad Mouse is with her to carry out a more genuine abduction/rescue, and not for Varys' gold. (No idea if Ser Morgoth and Ser Byron are his henchmen, partners, or entirely on their own)

Digression III :

Spoiler

I doubt Shadrich was telling Brienne the truth about himself. I think he was maybe sounding her out..n.b. she carried a shield bearing the Lothston bat, at the time.. His offer to share the spoils was odd (why should he, when they had just met?) But it did alert Brienne to the fact that Varys had offered a reward (creating more searchers), and made her more wary going forward. Depending on whether he has some connection to the old gods / green men, he may know quite a lot about Brienne, though she knows nothing about him.... and I'll throw in - 1. Jaime went back to rescue Brienne after dreaming by a weirwood stump, and, 2. I'd like to think his words to Brienne were prophetic.. ".. you’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel .." 

If Shadrich does pull it off (depending on whether Petyr is alive or dead) how would he get her away? 1) .. perhaps through the mountains.. Timmett son of Timmett would know Sansa (esp. if she used her own hair colour) and might allow passage because she's Tyrion's wife.. and from there to the RL.. or, 2.) Bronze Yohn has ports of his own, and might let them out that way, avoiding Gulltown (esp. if he recognised her and thought she was on her way to the Blackfish ...?) ..and from there to Saltpans, or maybe even Maidenpool, depending on what happens there after the departure of Tarly..

How would she survive in the Riverlands? Incognito, of course. ..The BWB needs redeeming thanks to LSH.. whatever is left of Cat may not want to exist - as long as she can see even one of her daughters (maybe both) before finally shuffling off... At least one faction of the BWB is currently led by a mysterious woman in a hooded cloak. This could be a disguise in waiting for Sansa.

For a complete fight of fancy : While all this was rattling around in my head, I could suddenly see Sansa and the BWB as Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs (she's even married to a dwarf)..you know, living with them in the forest, making them bathe more often and comb their hair and beards, while the evil Queen searches for her high and low.. ...(Too much?)

Attempting to cut this epic short, I think you can see the kind of possibilities I'm getting at, though there could be lots of variables - The Riverlands came to support Robb through Cat. If Robb has designated Jon as his heir.. even though the Blackfish may trust Robb's judgement (in spite of his words to Jaime) Riverlands lords don't know Jon and he has no Tully blood to recommend him .. Edmure is rather uninspiring, having "slept" through the Red Wedding .. But Sansa, with Stark, Tully and Whent blood could become a figurehead that creates that link anew, and brings the disparate factions of the BWB together again... I can't think Bonnifer Hasty will be able to successfully carry out his plans, and after what they've been through, what smallfolk that are left around the God's Eye must look fondly back to Shella Whent.

Sansa's wolf blood has been calling to her, too.. building snow WF ... in the wind as she descends fom the Eyrie ... and she has been thinking of Jon with some understanding... At the same time, nothing will be resolved regarding her marriage until Tyrion arrives with Dany (as I'm sure he will). 

I don't know if she'll be a queen (she might), but I don't think she'll be the queen of (poor,doomed) Aegon. But.. She could be placed to be a major diplomat between Dany, the Riverlands, the Vale and the North (saving even more destruction and many lives) and has been developing the skill to do the job well. 

(Now I really should go and pay some attention to my own thread.)

[Curled Finger]

I give up on the quotes tonight, but bemused, you really could be on to something. 

I have this thing.. a feeling, a suspicion, a what-have-you .. about the old magical bloodlines coming together to stand against the magic of the Others. And it dovetails with a thing I think GRRM is doing where the matrilineal bloodline can have equal importance with the bloodline of the father (or more In some cases) ... It's oft remarked that the Starks wed the daughters of the ancient kings they defeated and in doing so acquired the various magics of each house.   It's clear that Dunk didn't pass his genes along through the male line of Tarth.  Won't that just be fun if TPTWP was actually simply of Rhaella's line!   And Sansa is the most Tully of the Stark sibs.  Let she and young Robert fall into their uncle Blackfish's hands.  The connections are there to be made and I think you've put more than one dot together for the endgame and interim game while we're at it.  Makes me wonder exactly what gifts Meera really has that we haven't seen.   I have to ask about your Lothstons, though.   Do you think that absorbed houses can still maintain said house's loyalties?  I do believe the whole Blackfyre thing will come into play via Aegon, I'm just not sure how much support it has (in it's true form) outside of Varys and Illyrio.  And how could Aegon be exposed in order to gain the old supporters to his cause?  Would he want to since he's been raised as Aegon Targaryan under the careful care of Jon Connington?  This is sticky for me so any explanation would be helpful.  On a side note, any chance Dany & Aegon could end up together as even a bastard's blood is still Targ blood?  Wouldn't BR also turn his 1000 + 1 eyes to Dany eventually? 

Dog!  As I recall he went missing during or after Septon Meribald's er, interview with the BWB.  The irony in Sansa finding him is not lost on me and thanks for the chuckle.  Lots of ideas for where Sansa will end up. Lots for Sansa to do in the Riverlands and that bit about her disguising herself as LSH was pretty clever.    Again, I have to ask, if Sansa were to take RR, who would take Harrenhall?   Doesn't anyone see Asha there?  

I could go point for point with my thousand questions and one, but what I really want to get some elaboration on is the old magical bloodlines coming together to stand...how old are we going?  Lann the Clever old or Harren The Black old?  The magic is still in Westeros as I don't believe for a second The Starks & Targs are the only carriers.  I have a few minor characters I believe will play a very important part in endgame.   I can't find a lot of information on them so if you can send me in the right direction...

[Lord Cadwan]

I personally hope we do not regain Jon's POV and that we merely see him through the eyes of other characters from now on. This is because I believe that although Jon will be resurrected instead of properly dying his 'death' will instead be symbolic for the loss of his POV. This also brings up the fact that one day he could be a king as no king may have a POV. This said I believe the 13 POV characters in Winds will be Arya, Sansa, Bran, Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Daenerys, Arianne, Jaime, Samwell and Davos.

[The Sword of the Evening]

Location	Character #1	Character #2	Character #3
Braavos	Arya Stark
Slavers Bay	Tyrion Lannister	Barristan Selmy	Victarion Greyjoy
Dothraki Sea	Danaerys Targaryen
Kings Landing	Cersei Lannister
Riverlands	Brienne of Tarth	Jaime Lannister	Catelyn Tully**
Castle Black	Melisandre	Jon Snow*
Beyond the Wall	Bran Stark
Outside Winterfell	Theon Greyjoy	Asha Greyjoy
Skagos (en route)	Davos Seaworth
Iron Islands	Aeron Greyjoy
Vale	Sansa Stark
Dorne	Areo Hotah
Oldtown	Samwell Tarly
Stormlands	Arianne Martell	Jon Connington
Deceased	Ned Stark	Arys Oakheart	Quentyn Martell*

 

*Quentyn Martell is dead IMO, but some people think it was the Tattered Prince instead.

**Catelyn Tully is now Lady Stoneheart, pretty unlikely she gets another POV.

 

I think the Slaver's Bay/RIverlands/Stormlands are obviously the most likely storylines to be combined, but I wouldn't be surprised  to see Theon/Asha as well. I also expect Melisandre to be the Castle Black viewpoint for most of TWOW with maybe some info from Bran.

[Curled Finger]

22 hours ago, Lord Cadwan said:

I personally hope we do not regain Jon's POV and that we merely see him through the eyes of other characters from now on. This is because I believe that although Jon will be resurrected instead of properly dying his 'death' will instead be symbolic for the loss of his POV. This also brings up the fact that one day he could be a king as no king may have a POV. This said I believe the 13 POV characters in Winds will be Arya, Sansa, Bran, Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Daenerys, Arianne, Jaime, Samwell and Davos.

Welcome Lord Cadwan and thanks so much for your thoughts here.   I think we are about evenly divided on all the possibilities for a continued Jon POV.   It is slowly becoming apparent that the characters without a POV have information key to the story.   Indeed, Jon may no longer be Jon and we may not find ourselves sympathetic to his thoughts anymore.   And it is bloody interesting who is given a POV to tell the stories.   That said, who could serve as Jon's Davos now that Sam is gone?   Mel?  Nah, she's too entrenched in her own agenda.   Davos?  Nice twist, still we are unsure where Davos will end up.   He is an excellent companion storyteller.   However, his lack of knowledge regarding the North and Fire prophesies would hide way too much from us.   I don't know, but your ideas about Jon's death killing his POV are substantiated.  As to your surviving POVs, good on you for sparing Ser Grampa.   He's a personal favorite of mine and I think he's got more to say and do.   Still you are in the minority here and I would like to know how you see keeping all 3 POVs in Mereen alive?   You've also got a LOT of Greyjoys carrying on--what contributions do you see Vic and The Damphair making in the long run?   I don't know how much of the topic you read, but earlier in the week there was discussion about my magic 13 POV number being perhaps unlikely.  Please check out the discussion a page back if you have a chance and weigh in on it if you have anything to offer on the subject.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, The Sword of the Evening said:

Location	Character #1	Character #2	Character #3
Braavos	Arya Stark
Slavers Bay	Tyrion Lannister	Barristan Selmy	Victarion Greyjoy
Dothraki Sea	Danaerys Targaryen
Kings Landing	Cersei Lannister
Riverlands	Brienne of Tarth	Jaime Lannister	Catelyn Tully**
Castle Black	Melisandre	Jon Snow*
Beyond the Wall	Bran Stark
Outside Winterfell	Theon Greyjoy	Asha Greyjoy
Skagos (en route)	Davos Seaworth
Iron Islands	Aeron Greyjoy
Vale	Sansa Stark
Dorne	Areo Hotah
Oldtown	Samwell Tarly
Stormlands	Arianne Martell	Jon Connington
Deceased	Ned Stark	Arys Oakheart	Quentyn Martell*

 

*Quentyn Martell is dead IMO, but some people think it was the Tattered Prince instead.

**Catelyn Tully is now Lady Stoneheart, pretty unlikely she gets another POV.

 

I think the Slaver's Bay/RIverlands/Stormlands are obviously the most likely storylines to be combined, but I wouldn't be surprised  to see Theon/Asha as well. I also expect Melisandre to be the Castle Black viewpoint for most of TWOW with maybe some info from Bran.

Welcome SOTE.  Because so much is recently bandied about regarding Dawn, how did you settle on your screenname?   I only recently found a reference to SOTE and found it fascinating.  And you're organized.   The only location I could question is Aeron as I believe he is MIA last we didn't hear.  It's really interesting you didn't list Cat as deceased but gave her a presence in the RL.   I never understood this LSH thing but then again Cat is the character I least enjoy.  bemused has a really interesting idea for why this creature has continued in our story which merges many characters in the Vale and RL and offers a most unexpected future for a major character.   Check it out upthread if you haven't yet had a chance.  It's my feeling that the story needs to get down to 3 major plots by the end of TWOW, TPTWP, AA & TLH.   Yes I know I'm insane, but this is how I see it.   These are the big quests so I am trying to put all our (13 +/-) characters in 1 of these 3 stories.   It's all I can do to merge or kill any POV.   If for example Jon is TPTWP he will need a certain number of supporters where if he ends up being TLH he will definitely require 12 companions.   If Dany is AA, she will require another several key players to aid her in fulfilling the role. (Before anyone freaks out, I specifically wrote IF and these are only examples, not true hypothesis!!!)  TWOW will have to set all of it up.   Any more specific thoughts on the matter, SOTE? I have to ask if you see Theon and Asha remaining on the mainland instead of returning to the Iron Islands?   Thanks for organizing the characters where we last left them and offering your thoughts on the matters.