Merging Story Lines

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

1. Victarion will die without getting a dragon.I believe the Dusky Woman is Euron's agent.   Hehehehehehe
2. Daenerys will go to Vees Dothrak,get a huge khalassar and then return to Meereen, having embraced her "fire and blood" words.
3. Tyrion cannot leave the city now.The battle of fire,Meereen Civil War (Sons of the Harpy) and Volantis's arrival are enough for the Second Sons.  These are both interesting as you guess Dany's fixin' to go all Blood & FIre due in no small part to the events in Mereen yet Tyrion is the poor schmuck holding the bag during her war.    And it is her war.  I'm unsure where I see Dany headed after she amasses her khalassar--back to Mereen to clean up the mess she made or chuck it and say off to Westeros.  Seems to me she sort of has to go reclaim the rest of her army.   Since you killed poor Vic off, do you see the remaining IB (with or without Moqorro) being taken prisoner, killed or successfully retreating?
4. Dorne and Jon Con have shown most of their plans, so they don't need too many chapters. By the end of the story Aegon will be at King's Landing, so he will appear in others POVs (Jaime,Cersei,Sansa).  Aegon's gone all guts and glory, true.   But I do think the truth of his parentage has to figure into this.   I'm not a subscriber to the DOD 2.0 idea as 3 dragons and 2 Targs barely causes a blip on a DOD map, but something will happen so I'm hoping we continue to stay close to Aegon until it is fully revealed.   And I sort of like Jon Con, too. 
5. For Sansa I believe that the Mad Mouse will abduct her near the end of Winds to take her to Cersei,but he will find Aegon at King's Landing.   It could happen and is a logical path to all your team assembling in KL.
6. For Jaime, I believe he will be forced by the events to return.Sand Snakes will reveal who Robert Strong is (and probably kill Tommen or Myrcella),Cersei will be arrested again, so house Lannister will need a leader.  That's a new one to me.   Particularly in regard to Jamie being the new leader of House Lannister.   I think I like this.   I'm going to ponder this for a while.
7. For Arya I believe that she will go for training/mission to King's Landing and there she will find Sansa.   You are piling them up in a practical manner.
8. I doubt Asha will survive the battle of Ice.  Blasphemer!   I'd like some more on this as I see Asha ultimately ruling the IB and bringing them into modern day with their own agriculture and all the things she said she wanted to do during the Kingsmoot.   Why does she die so early?
9. I doubt the hunt for Darkstar is so important but I believe he will kill Balon and possibly Obara.we can learn about what happened through ravens sent to Arianne or Sam if he heads to Dorne.   I probably understand less about Darkstar andhis whole deal than anything else.   And there is a lot I don't understand.  Do you see him as inconsequential as a Dayne then?    You don't reckon he's the next Sword of the Morning?
10. My idea is that Sam is with Alleras(Sarella).When Euron takes Oldtown,Alleras flees with Sam and they head to Dorne.   I'm hoping Alleras is a good guy, but we know so little, it's hard to get firmly in that camp.   However I know in my bones that Sam is good and has a talent for recruiting help where he needs it.    Doran says something about leaving Sarella to her game in Old Town--what's that about?   Clearly Sam hasn't got time to forge his Maester's chain so he really does need to get busy on an adventure.  As I read this, you think Dorne will contain some vital knowledge to aid Sam in his quest?   This is actually a pretty nice idea, though.

Better still, King Endymion, and thanks for elaborating.  

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Better still, King Endymion, and thanks for elaborating.  

5 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said: [Bolded is Curled Finger's response}

Victarion will die without getting a dragon.I believe the Dusky Woman is Euron's agent.  Hehehehehehe

Daenerys will go to Vees Dothrak,get a huge khalassar and then return to Meereen, having embraced her "fire and blood" words.

Tyrion cannot leave the city now.The battle of fire,Meereen Civil War (Sons of the Harpy) and Volantis's arrival are enough for the Second Sons.  These are both interesting as you guess Dany's fixin' to go all Blood & FIre due in no small part to the events in Mereen yet Tyrion is the poor schmuck holding the bag during her war.    And it is her war.  I'm unsure where I see Dany headed after she amasses her khalassar--back to Mereen to clean up the mess she made or chuck it and say off to Westeros.  Seems to me she sort of has to go reclaim the rest of her army.   Since you killed poor Vic off, do you see the remaining IB (with or without Moqorro) being taken prisoner, killed or successfully retreating?

Dorne and Jon Con have shown most of their plans, so they don't need too many chapters. By the end of the story Aegon will be at King's Landing, so he will appear in others POVs (Jaime,Cersei,Sansa).  Aegon's gone all guts and glory, true.   But I do think the truth of his parentage has to figure into this.   I'm not a subscriber to the DOD 2.0 idea as 3 dragons and 2 Targs barely causes a blip on a DOD map, but something will happen so I'm hoping we continue to stay close to Aegon until it is fully revealed.   And I sort of like Jon Con, too. 

For Sansa I believe that the Mad Mouse will abduct her near the end of Winds to take her to Cersei,but he will find Aegon at King's Landing.   It could happen and is a logical path to all your team assembling in KL.

For Jaime, I believe he will be forced by the events to return.Sand Snakes will reveal who Robert Strong is (and probably kill Tommen or Myrcella),Cersei will be arrested again, so house Lannister will need a leader.  That's a new one to me.   Particularly in regard to Jamie being the new leader of House Lannister.   I think I like this.   I'm going to ponder this for a while.

For Arya I believe that she will go for training/mission to King's Landing and there she will find Sansa.   You are piling them up in a practical manner.

I doubt Asha will survive the battle of Ice.  Blasphemer!   I'd like some more on this as I see Asha ultimately ruling the IB and bringing them into modern day with their own agriculture and all the things she said she wanted to do during the Kingsmoot.   Why does she die so early?

I doubt the hunt for Darkstar is so important but I believe he will kill Balon and possibly Obara.we can learn about what happened through ravens sent to Arianne or Sam if he heads to Dorne.   I probably understand less about Darkstar andhis whole deal than anything else.   And there is a lot I don't understand.  Do you see him as inconsequential as a Dayne then?    You don't reckon he's the next Sword of the Morning?

My idea is that Sam is with Alleras(Sarella).When Euron takes Oldtown,Alleras flees with Sam and they head to Dorne.   I'm hoping Alleras is a good guy, but we know so little, it's hard to get firmly in that camp.   However I know in my bones that Sam is good and has a talent for recruiting help where he needs it.    Doran says something about leaving Sarella to her game in Old Town--what's that about?   Clearly Sam hasn't got time to forge his Maester's chain so he really does need to get busy on an adventure.  As I read this, you think Dorne will contain some vital knowledge to aid Sam in his quest?   This is actually a pretty nice idea, though.

 

I was going to respond to King Endymion, so now I will respond to you both.

Meereen - I agree that Dany is probably off to Vaes Dothrak to pick up some Dothraki troops.As to the rest of the story, my prediction - contrarian as usual, - is that Dany's side loses Meereen.  With Dany gone, the slavers will regain confidence, her own side will lose hope, and the arrival of Volantis will tip the balance.  The Second Sons will not be enough to save the situation and her allies are forced to run for their lives  Victarion takes them with his fleet in exchange for extravagant promises from Tyrion and anyone else still standing.  George likes unhappy endings on occasion and this is a perfect opportunity.  Otherwise, it would likely take too long to stabilize the place, and I don't see Dany leaving otherwise.  And she really need to head West, pronto.

Sansa & Mad Mouse - Mad Mouse is a mercenary, not an agent of Cersei.  He will go where the money or jobs are.  Right now, he thinks he can get a bag of gold for Sansa.  Should that change, or he gets a better offer (maybe even from Sansa), his plans are likely to change.  While I can see her in KL as a prisoner, I don't see how that really advances her story, which I think has more to do with Littlefinger and with the North.  At this point, I don't see her and Aegon having much of value to offer each other.

I honestly think Arya is going to leave the FM, possibly at their request. I think the preview chapter is setting that up.  They are certainly not going to send her anywhere by herself.  She's too raw, and of questionable loyalty.  Also, I don't know how it advances her story regarding her identity and quest for vengeance.  I honestly don't see her killing Cersei.  there are already plenty of candidates for that honor.

Asha - I too see her as surviving to the end and taking over the IB, and transforming their economy, although I imagine them transformed into traders and movers of merchandise.  They are excellent sailors, and this is more reliable than piracy, and causes less trouble.

Sam - Him with Alleras is an interesting idea.  Don't know where it leads,but you are correct that he doesn't have time to get a maester's chain.  (The same thing is true for Arya becoming an assassin.  Insufficient time).  Something mysterious is going on at the Citadel, though, and Sam is just the guy to find out what.

ETA:  By the end of WOW there will be three main geographical areas of activity; The North, with 4-5 POVs; Riverlands, Vale, and KL, with 4-5 POVs; and wherever Dany is with 2-3 POVs.  Asha and Arianne will be the only "minor" POVs left with the others dead or losing POV status.  Asha will take over for Theon in the North, and Arianne will take over for Cersei in KL.

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Meereen - I agree that Dany is probably off to Vaes Dothrak to pick up some Dothraki troops.As to the rest of the story, my prediction - contrarian as usual, - is that Dany's side loses Meereen.  With Dany gone, the slavers will regain confidence, her own side will lose hope, and the arrival of Volantis will tip the balance.  The Second Sons will not be enough to save the situation and her allies are forced to run for their lives  Victarion takes them with his fleet in exchange for extravagant promises from Tyrion and anyone else still standing.  George likes unhappy endings on occasion and this is a perfect opportunity.  Otherwise, it would likely take too long to stabilize the place, and I don't see Dany leaving otherwise.  And she really need to head West, pronto.

Sansa & Mad Mouse - Mad Mouse is a mercenary, not an agent of Cersei.  He will go where the money or jobs are.  Right now, he thinks he can get a bag of gold for Sansa.  Should that change, or he gets a better offer (maybe even from Sansa), his plans are likely to change.  While I can see her in KL as a prisoner, I don't see how that really advances her story, which I think has more to do with Littlefinger and with the North.  At this point, I don't see her and Aegon having much of value to offer each other.

I honestly think Arya is going to leave the FM, possibly at their request. I think the preview chapter is setting that up.  They are certainly not going to send her anywhere by herself.  She's too raw, and of questionable loyalty.  Also, I don't know how it advances her story regarding her identity and quest for vengeance.  I honestly don't see her killing Cersei.  there are already plenty of candidates for that honor.

Asha - I too see her as surviving to the end and taking over the IB, and transforming their economy, although I imagine them transformed into traders and movers of merchandise.  They are excellent sailors, and this is more reliable than piracy, and causes less trouble.

Sam - Him with Alleras is an interesting idea.  Don't know where it leads,but you are correct that he doesn't have time to get a maester's chain.  (The same thing is true for Arya becoming an assassin.  Insufficient time).  Something mysterious is going on at the Citadel, though, and Sam is just the guy to find out what.

ETA:  By the end of WOW there will be three main geographical areas of activity; The North, with 4-5 POVs; Riverlands, Vale, and KL, with 4-5 POVs; and wherever Dany is with 2-3 POVs.  Asha and Arianne will be the only "minor" POVs left with the others dead or losing POV status.  Asha will take over for Theon in the North, and Arianne will take over for Cersei in KL.

 

 

 

Hiya Nevets.   As we unwind TWOW it occurs to me that we are far from done with major story lines and perhaps with new important players.  I'm loathe to dismiss either Dorne or the Iron Born as many see to treat these lines as filler, unworthy of lasting importance.  This thing with Sam and Arellas makes me ponder the importance of the Sand Snakes.  They may just become major players after all...but are they working in concert to the same end? One thing is certain, Dorne is brimming with conspiracy and mystery and it may take more than Winds to bring this part of the realm to heel for whomever rules.   In this vein we've got at least 2 Faceless Men at play and I'm not so sure they will simply leave either their positions or the story.  While I agree most heartily with your Arya predictions I'm not so sure she has to leave the FM at all.    Perhaps as some suspect, this group is a major global political player. Isn't it possible they have a vested interest in either the Others or the dragons?  IDK, just throwing seeds in the wind again.   This thing with Mereen has me torn as I see all these scenarios possible.  You narrow the tale to 3 areas that do not include all 7 realms so I take it you feel the Reach and Stormlands, Dorne and Iron Islands stories will resolve or become inconsequential to the overall story as they were for much of the series in the beginning.  That may actually be a good idea Nevets, get on with the main business already.   

[dornishdame]

On 1/29/2016 at 3:08 AM, Curled Finger said:

I see cycles repeating in this story.   You know I'm a supporter of a possible reenactment (of sorts) of THL legend with the swords and heroes.   Whether that's right or way off remains to be seen but I do see the cycle coming around and the pieces coming into place to have this happen.   King Robert was a throw back to Aegon The Unworthy as Brienne is reminiscent of young Dunk.  Cersei really does strike me as an Aerys.  I'm not saying incarnations, just similarities.   Aerys was the supreme ruler and could do a he pleased without censure.   Cersei struggles with madness and indulgence and a very nasty streak of paranoia and cruelty.   Unlike Aerys she has to maintain restraint.   She is not the supreme ruler of anything and has only a tenuous grip on the power she's claimed.   That's where your bringing up Duskendale was perfect symmetry.   I have no doubt Cersei is broken in the exact manner Aerys was broken and her insanity will be more than her undoing.    I just hope Jamie doesn't have to relive his last moments with Aerys when Cersei finally comes into her own. 

Got any ideas who she will name Hand?

History is, in my opinion, cyclical in nature. There is a quote by Eugene O'Neill that sums it up pretty well for me - "There is no present or future - only the past, happening over and over again - now." 

There are so many parallels between current and historic characters, and the importance of historic events is constantly stressed. As I think I have said before, the Dunk and Egg tales are very Blackfyre-centric, and so much of the main book series goes back to Robert's Rebellion and what happened there. Jon Connington is constantly haunted by the loss of the Battle of the Bells at Stony Sept, and the feeling that if he had won that battle and killed Robert then Rhaegar would still be alive. This will have an influence on the decisions he takes in Winds, as will his greyscale. The caution he would have counselled in the past is quickly evaporating. 

Brienne's links to Dunk are numerous - and I see both as being part of the theme of knighthood throughout the main books and supplementary material. During Bran's KotLT chapter in Storm, Meera says "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran." Brienne and Dunk are part of the theme running through this world that sometimes knights don't uphold their vows and sometimes those who are not, or cannot be, knights are the very people who most display knightly traits and uphold knightly vows. 

It will be interesting to see if any of these parallel characters interact in Winds. 

As to Cersei's Hand.........whomever she selects will need to be willing to do her bidding, and to either understand that Cersei is really the one in charge, or be stupid enough to not understand just how much she means to be in charge. A reinstated Orton Merryweather might be an option. He proved to be biddable in the past, she likes his wife (if Taena betrayed Cersei to Margaery and the Tyrells then Cersei remains ignorant of it, as she mentions to Kevan in his Dance epilogue that she would like Taena to return to KL as her companion) and I can see Cersei being vindictive enough to replace Mace Tyrell with one of his own bannermen. She would need to rid herself of Randyll Tarly or Paxter Redwyne to ensure that there were more balanced numbers in the Small Council, but with the Golden Company landing in the south, ridding herself of at least one, possibly two seasoned commanders should prove easy enough. And while Mace wants troops in KL for Margaery's trial, they will not need to stay in the capital after - and Cersei can subtly remind Mace that if KL falls, Margaery's head will end up on a spike right next to Tommen's. 

Orton is the only one of her previous Hands I can see Cersei reappointing. Harys Swyft loses all value as a "guestage" as Kevan is dead and she no longer needs to keep him sweet. And Tywin is dead. Jaime has some thoughts on who might be suitable in Feast - 

If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

I think we can rule out Mathis Rowan. He is currently holding Storm's End, and is one of my favorites to switch sides in the first half of Winds. If he doesn't betray Mace, then I can see him dying as the castle is taken. Prester is in the party escorting Edmure Tully and Jeyne Westerling to Casterly Rock; given that the Brotherhood are, in my opinion, likely to disrupt that travelling group it is entirely possible that Prester will be dead before Cersei's trial. Crakehall is a possibility, but of the ones Jaime considers, the only person I think Cersei would consider appointing is Littlefinger. But even then, there are issues. As I have said above, Cersei will want to appoint someone she can manipulate. And while she has never understood how easily Littlefinger has manipulated her in the past, I think she is at least smart enough to realize that she cannot manipulate him. That said, she knows Littlefinger (or, at least, she thinks she does). Littlefinger, however, may see himself as safer in the Vale. 

One person I think Cersei would actually most like to appoint is Qyburn. It will be interesting to see if she attempts it. Qyburn has proven loyal and provided her with Ser Robert Strong. Cersei also sees him as both biddable and her creature. She does not understand, as Jaime did, the reputation and behavior of the Brave Companions. Qyburn may be no Vargo Hoat. But he is carrying out suspect experiments in the black cells, and Cersei knows this as she has provided subjects for his research. 

It will also be interesting to see if Cersei makes a further attempt to get Jaime to rule alongside her. Or, if she names him while he is missing, and then rules in his stead.....keeping the Hand's chair warm for him as Tyrion did for Tywin. Of course, by the time Cersei's trial is over, the Small Council may have gained Nymeria Sand and a new Grand Maester. It will be interesting to see whom the Citadel sends to KL as Pycelle's replacement. And to whom or what that replacement is loyal. 

[WhitewolfStark]

On 1/28/2016 at 10:53 PM, Curled Finger said:

Meat Pies--good to see you again.   You know, I'm digging Nevets' idea up there and see no reason Osha, Rickon and Davos can't all go on the adventure.   Davos, being every man's man, will be stoically devastated to lose Stannis.   I think GRRM will give him a break by giving him Rickon. Maybe Stannis will be long gone by the time Davos even learns of it and will have already formed his alliances with Rickon and Osha representing all the Wildlings.  Egad, maybe there is a whole bunch of them in Davos' party. This scenario is a whole lot more appealing than seeing the bunch of them end up at Winterfell.   Maybe having to travel tunnels is the reason Davos has been locked up so many times, to acclimate him to the enclosure of wandering about underground.   With screaming things in caves at Hardhome.   Oh bring on that world building!  

Any idea who we can match them up with on an adventure of this nature?   They would be pioneers for us on that side of the map.  On a side note, an adventure like this would expose Davos to the other side of the magical forces, putting him in a rare position to witness the miracles and horror of both fire and ice.  I, for one, would be very interested in Davos' take on wargs and greenseers.  

I actually like this idea and would like to incorporate it into my thoughts! Davos, Rickon, and Osha all go further North. Thumbs up to Nevets, Meat Pies, and Curled Finger.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, dornishdame said:

History is, in my opinion, cyclical in nature. There is a quote by Eugene O'Neill that sums it up pretty well for me - "There is no present or future - only the past, happening over and over again - now." 

There are so many parallels between current and historic characters, and the importance of historic events is constantly stressed. As I think I have said before, the Dunk and Egg tales are very Blackfyre-centric, and so much of the main book series goes back to Robert's Rebellion and what happened there. Jon Connington is constantly haunted by the loss of the Battle of the Bells at Stony Sept, and the feeling that if he had won that battle and killed Robert then Rhaegar would still be alive. This will have an influence on the decisions he takes in Winds, as will his greyscale. The caution he would have counselled in the past is quickly evaporating. 

Brienne's links to Dunk are numerous - and I see both as being part of the theme of knighthood throughout the main books and supplementary material. During Bran's KotLT chapter in Storm, Meera says "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran." Brienne and Dunk are part of the theme running through this world that sometimes knights don't uphold their vows and sometimes those who are not, or cannot be, knights are the very people who most display knightly traits and uphold knightly vows. 

It will be interesting to see if any of these parallel characters interact in Winds. 

As to Cersei's Hand.........whomever she selects will need to be willing to do her bidding, and to either understand that Cersei is really the one in charge, or be stupid enough to not understand just how much she means to be in charge. A reinstated Orton Merryweather might be an option. He proved to be biddable in the past, she likes his wife (if Taena betrayed Cersei to Margaery and the Tyrells then Cersei remains ignorant of it, as she mentions to Kevan in his Dance epilogue that she would like Taena to return to KL as her companion) and I can see Cersei being vindictive enough to replace Mace Tyrell with one of his own bannermen. She would need to rid herself of Randyll Tarly or Paxter Redwyne to ensure that there were more balanced numbers in the Small Council, but with the Golden Company landing in the south, ridding herself of at least one, possibly two seasoned commanders should prove easy enough. And while Mace wants troops in KL for Margaery's trial, they will not need to stay in the capital after - and Cersei can subtly remind Mace that if KL falls, Margaery's head will end up on a spike right next to Tommen's. 

Orton is the only one of her previous Hands I can see Cersei reappointing. Harys Swyft loses all value as a "guestage" as Kevan is dead and she no longer needs to keep him sweet. And Tywin is dead. Jaime has some thoughts on who might be suitable in Feast - 

If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

I think we can rule out Mathis Rowan. He is currently holding Storm's End, and is one of my favorites to switch sides in the first half of Winds. If he doesn't betray Mace, then I can see him dying as the castle is taken. Prester is in the party escorting Edmure Tully and Jeyne Westerling to Casterly Rock; given that the Brotherhood are, in my opinion, likely to disrupt that travelling group it is entirely possible that Prester will be dead before Cersei's trial. Crakehall is a possibility, but of the ones Jaime considers, the only person I think Cersei would consider appointing is Littlefinger. But even then, there are issues. As I have said above, Cersei will want to appoint someone she can manipulate. And while she has never understood how easily Littlefinger has manipulated her in the past, I think she is at least smart enough to realize that she cannot manipulate him. That said, she knows Littlefinger (or, at least, she thinks she does). Littlefinger, however, may see himself as safer in the Vale. 

One person I think Cersei would actually most like to appoint is Qyburn. It will be interesting to see if she attempts it. Qyburn has proven loyal and provided her with Ser Robert Strong. Cersei also sees him as both biddable and her creature. She does not understand, as Jaime did, the reputation and behavior of the Brave Companions. Qyburn may be no Vargo Hoat. But he is carrying out suspect experiments in the black cells, and Cersei knows this as she has provided subjects for his research. 

It will also be interesting to see if Cersei makes a further attempt to get Jaime to rule alongside her. Or, if she names him while he is missing, and then rules in his stead.....keeping the Hand's chair warm for him as Tyrion did for Tywin. Of course, by the time Cersei's trial is over, the Small Council may have gained Nymeria Sand and a new Grand Maester. It will be interesting to see whom the Citadel sends to KL as Pycelle's replacement. And to whom or what that replacement is loyal. 

Hiya Dame..as thoughtful and careful as you are with your suppositions I was hoping you would validate my suspicion about the cycles.   Thanks so much for your quote.  I do look forward to your more reckless Jon Con.   He's definitely got an axe to grind.  I wonder who he can take it out on?   If he makes it to KL I do hope he has the opportunity to drop by Ser Robert Strong's place for a bit of clearing the air.   As I recall the greyscale has a tendency to make adults insane.   Stone Man vs Undead Gregor--nice.   But back to the nuts part, I think he's more sympathetic than vengeful, I can't see him killing Tommen for the sins of his father (cough cough).   Who knows how the greyscale will affect him, but bring it on. 

If I get my way they will all interact.   I'm even working on a spreadsheet to figure out who could end up where with which sword.  Hey now, it doesn't hurt anyone and keeps me out of trouble in the world I live in. 

Yes that sweet little request of Cersei's regarding Taena Merryweather is what makes me hope she's wising up.   You've listed every possible candidate for Hand and I agree wholeheartedly with your opening assumption.   The new Hand will have to be someone she thinks will be her monkey.   Whether she goes for blood with the Tyrells--I can see her going either way.   If she hasn't lost all sense she will keep them around.  I've thought Qyburn was most likely candidate for a close position, but he's got a close position and who could Cersei trust to bring her secrets?   She really undervalued Pycell and his devout loyalty to the Lannisters.   That will be an interesting appointment as well as the Faith's feelings about it.   I'm operating under the prediction that she will do  as much harm as quickly as possible in order to get the ball rolling with both the Faith and Tyrells.    Also, I think it was your idea in another thread that with Pycell off the board, there is no one to testify to Marg's moon tea request.   Wonder how that will play into Marg's further imprisonment or expedited release.  

Lots and lots to ponder.   Thanks for all the possible Hands.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, WhitewolfStark said:

I actually like this idea and would like to incorporate it into my thoughts! Davos, Rickon, and Osha all go further North. Thumbs up to Nevets, Meat Pies, and Curled Finger.

Hiya Whitewolf.   Ah gee, it was really just a combination of Nevets' and Wyman Manderlys Meat Pies' ideas.   They are both good strong ideas that really do compliment each other and lead Davos & Co in an unexpected direction wherein they can form a close relationship..   I mean, who hasn't wondered about Davos after Stannis is gone?   I'm on my 6th or 7th reread (LIE, I listen) and still finding new things and piecing things together.  This story is flat out amazing that way.  So long as we are able to share our thoughts, questions and ideas with each other there will be these moments.  I see our friends have fed your imagination and this is exactly what I think this whole story is for.  Rock On Whitewolf. 

[dornishdame]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hiya Dame..as thoughtful and careful as you are with your suppositions I was hoping you would validate my suspicion about the cycles.   Thanks so much for your quote.  I do look forward to your more reckless Jon Con.   He's definitely got an axe to grind.  I wonder who he can take it out on?   If he makes it to KL I do hope he has the opportunity to drop by Ser Robert Strong's place for a bit of clearing the air.   As I recall the greyscale has a tendency to make adults insane.   Stone Man vs Undead Gregor--nice.   But back to the nuts part, I think he's more sympathetic than vengeful, I can't see him killing Tommen for the sins of his father (cough cough).   Who knows how the greyscale will affect him, but bring it on. 

If I get my way they will all interact.   I'm even working on a spreadsheet to figure out who could end up where with which sword.  Hey now, it doesn't hurt anyone and keeps me out of trouble in the world I live in. 

Yes that sweet little request of Cersei's regarding Taena Merryweather is what makes me hope she's wising up.   You've listed every possible candidate for Hand and I agree wholeheartedly with your opening assumption.   The new Hand will have to be someone she thinks will be her monkey.   Whether she goes for blood with the Tyrells--I can see her going either way.   If she hasn't lost all sense she will keep them around.  I've thought Qyburn was most likely candidate for a close position, but he's got a close position and who could Cersei trust to bring her secrets?   She really undervalued Pycell and his devout loyalty to the Lannisters.   That will be an interesting appointment as well as the Faith's feelings about it.   I'm operating under the prediction that she will do  as much harm as quickly as possible in order to get the ball rolling with both the Faith and Tyrells.    Also, I think it was your idea in another thread that with Pycell off the board, there is no one to testify to Marg's moon tea request.   Wonder how that will play into Marg's further imprisonment or expedited release.  

Lots and lots to ponder.   Thanks for all the possible Hands.  

Ah, JonCon......I think that his determination to right the wrongs he thinks he did Rhaegar before he dies will lead him to support Aegon's impulsiveness in a way he would not have done before. There is this exchange at the end of The Griffin Reborn in Dance:

The prince sat. "We've been talking with Strickland and Flowers. They told us about this attack on Storm's End that you're planning."

Jon Connington did not let his fury show. "And did Homeless Harry try to persuade you to delay it?"

"He did, actually," the prince said, "but I won't. Harry's an old maid, isn't he? You have the right of it, my lord. I want the attack to go ahead … with one change. I mean to lead it."

I am quite sure that Aegon will lead it. But, when we compare this to JonCon's caution when Tyrion first encounters the band of exiles on Shy Maid, it is clear that JonCon's undergone a few changes since then. And he has also expressed his desire to seat Aegon on the Iron Throne before he dies - something that will come a lot sooner than he previously expected now that he has contracted greyscale. I do wonder if the greyscale will spread throughout Westeros as the sweating sickness did throughout England after Henry Tudor arrived with an army of sellswords to claim the throne? Anyway, I quite like the idea of JonCon reaching KL in Winds and crossing paths with Cersei. In Clash, when KL was under threat from Stannis, Cersei had this advice for Sansa:

"Try not to sound so like a mouse, Sansa. You're a woman now, remember? And betrothed to my firstborn." The queen sipped at her wine. "Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I'd have a better chance of seducing his horse." She noticed the look on Sansa's face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

I'm not sure Cersei has much chance with JonCon either. As for JonCon ordering Tommen's death, we have to remember that he is seeking assistance from Dorne. And Dorne remembers as much as the North does. Any Dornish with him may seek to kill Tommen as vengeance for what happened during the Sack of KL. Not only that, will Aegon consider Tommen's death vengeance for that of Rhaenys and Elia? Hmm, interesting to speculate - and to consider the effect of greyscale on the undead. 

I did wonder about Taena, now that you've brought it up. Of course, we see Cersei's request for Taena through Kevan's eyes and so don't know what Cersei is thinking. For the moment, however, I am more inclined to think Cersei completely ignorant of any double-dealing Taena may be involved in. Personally, I am of the line of thought that believes Taena to be as much a triple agent as the Kettleblacks (though with Varys as her ultimate backer rather than LF) and that her role is to provoke discord between Cersei and the Tyrells. You are right, I did post elsewhere about the impact Pycelle's death will have on Margaery's trial. As it stands, Taena is the only person really in a position - other than the Kettleblacks, who I am not sure would be deemed reliable - to accuse Cersei of plotting to get Margaery arrested and found guilty of adultery.  I think I said that Pycelle's death would actually go against Margaery as he is no longer in a position to withdraw his accusation, or to give evidence. When he admits to Cersei in Feast that he provided Margaery with moon tea, it seems there is something else he might want to say:

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. "Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man." Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. 

I have theorized before that Margaery may not have wanted moon tea for the reason Cersei thinks. Just as in our world doctors prescribe the contraceptive pill for reasons other than birth control, I wonder if moon tea can perhaps also be used to deal with some menstrual problems. That would account for Margaery wanting the tea for herself and being innocent of the charges against her. She and her cousins seem very close - if the moon tea was for one of them, you would think the girl in question would have confessed by now to save the others?

Your spreadsheet sounds interesting - particularly the mention of swords. I wonder if we will see the reappearance of Dark Sister and/or Blackfyre before the end of Winds? The whereabouts of Dark Sister is unknown, but I suspect that one of the Raven's Teeth may have ensured that the sword left KL and went north with Bloodraven. I doubt a valyrian sword would have gone unnoticed in the armory at Castle Black for long - especially with someone as capable as Donal Noye in charge of it. If the sword went north with Bloodraven (as I suspect it did) then the likelihood is he had it on him when he 'disappeared' (it makes sense to me for the LC of the Watch to take such a sword with him on a ranging). Bloodraven seems to have taken an interest in Jon, that much is clear from the odd behavior of Mormont's raven, and I think he sees some of himself in Jon (this goes back to parallels again, but I don't see Jon as Bloodraven 2.0, and I think he shares as many characteristics with Aegon V The Unlikely as he does with Bloodraven). It wouldn't shock me to see Bloodraven arrange for Dark Sister, should he still have it, to fall into Jon's hands. When Jon is given Longclaw in Thrones, he thinks of swords plural - 

When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. He twitched his burned fingers, feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin. "My lord, you honor me, but—"

Then, later in the same chapter:

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of … 

In Dark Sister, Jon could wield a sword that belonged to his forefathers. Blackfyre, on the other hand, is I think in the hands of the Golden Company. In The Mystery Knight, the conspirators are keen to discover whether or not Daemon II Blackfyre carries his father's sword. But, after years of plotting and the aftermath of the failure at Regrass Field, I don't think Bittersteel would allow the sword to be taken over the Narrow Sea to Westeros without some sort of victory being won first. He had to ensure that the sword remained in the hands of the Blackfyre claimants. And therefore, it could not be risked in battle. 

The second Jon quote above also makes me think about a few story lines that could merge in Winds. The GNC, the aftermath of the Battle of Ice, Robb's will and Jon. All of the northern strands of the plot could merge - after all, we already have the Pink Letter bringing the plot lines at Winterfell and the Wall together. 

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of … 

Will Winds be the book in which Jon discovers his heritage? Robb's will has been missing since Storm, and was headed right for Howland Reed - the man with so much knowledge that we've not yet been permitted to meet him on page. Personally, I am a bit apprehensive for Jon in Winds if this is the case. Aside from whatever his body has to go through following the Ides of Marsh, I think that finding out about his heritage would destroy him mentally and emotionally. He has a huge hole in his life where his mother should be (one made bigger by the distance between Jon and his step-mother, leaving him without any sort of maternal figure in his live except Old Nan) and as such, he has built his identity and his entire sense of self upon the one thing he believes to be true - that he is Ned Stark's son. His entire belief system, the motivations for what he does, his sense of self.....all of it is based in Jon trying to prove that he is worthy of being called Ned Stark's son. When he runs off in Thrones, it is to prove this worthiness. 

Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.

Then.......to find out that his whole identity is based upon a lie, and that Ned lied to him every day for almost fifteen years? It will destroy Jon, and that could have an impact on the War for the Dawn and the other northern story lines. I have to say, talking of merging story lines - should JonCon be captured before Aegon takes KL, or arrested after Aegon is defeated, and JonCon is then sent to the Wall, it would be interesting to see the two Jons interact. That said, I don't see such interaction as likely. 

[Nevets]

On 1/31/2016 at 7:40 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hiya Nevets.   As we unwind TWOW it occurs to me that we are far from done with major story lines and perhaps with new important players.  I'm loathe to dismiss either Dorne or the Iron Born as many see to treat these lines as filler, unworthy of lasting importance.  This thing with Sam and Arellas makes me ponder the importance of the Sand Snakes.  They may just become major players after all...but are they working in concert to the same end? One thing is certain, Dorne is brimming with conspiracy and mystery and it may take more than Winds to bring this part of the realm to heel for whomever rules.   In this vein we've got at least 2 Faceless Men at play and I'm not so sure they will simply leave either their positions or the story.  While I agree most heartily with your Arya predictions I'm not so sure she has to leave the FM at all.    Perhaps as some suspect, this group is a major global political player. Isn't it possible they have a vested interest in either the Others or the dragons?  IDK, just throwing seeds in the wind again.   This thing with Mereen has me torn as I see all these scenarios possible.  You narrow the tale to 3 areas that do not include all 7 realms so I take it you feel the Reach and Stormlands, Dorne and Iron Islands stories will resolve or become inconsequential to the overall story as they were for much of the series in the beginning.  That may actually be a good idea Nevets, get on with the main business already.   

It's three pretty broad areas and characters are likely to be spread out among these areas.  As far as the Ironborn or Dorne go, the plots for both those areas have moved out into other areas.  The Ironborn are in the North, the Reach, and on their way to Meereen.  The Dornish are on the way to KL or Storm's End, which I think will merge with KL.

As far as Arya goes, I am not sure whether the FM are a plot device or a serious player.  My hope is for the former for a lot of reasons. 

First, I don't like them.  I think they are bad guys, and a bad influence on Arya, who I like.  The longer she is with them, the worse off I think she will be.  It also makes her carrying her own story more difficult, because I don't think she will be in a position to be independent with the FM for a long time yet. 

The second reason is that George is juggling a huge number of balls already, and doesn't need more stuff cluttering up the story.  He needs to clear the underbrush, not make more.  That said, "Pate" is up to something at the Citadel, most likely to do with dragons.  By the way, who is the other Faceless Man in play?  "Pate" (aka Jaqen) is the only I know of.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

It's three pretty broad areas and characters are likely to be spread out among these areas.  As far as the Ironborn or Dorne go, the plots for both those areas have moved out into other areas.  The Ironborn are in the North, the Reach, and on their way to Meereen.  The Dornish are on the way to KL or Storm's End, which I think will merge with KL.

As far as Arya goes, I am not sure whether the FM are a plot device or a serious player.  My hope is for the former for a lot of reasons. 

First, I don't like them.  I think they are bad guys, and a bad influence on Arya, who I like.  The longer she is with them, the worse off I think she will be.  It also makes her carrying her own story more difficult, because I don't think she will be in a position to be independent with the FM for a long time yet. 

The second reason is that George is juggling a huge number of balls already, and doesn't need more stuff cluttering up the story.  He needs to clear the underbrush, not make more.  That said, "Pate" is up to something at the Citadel, most likely to do with dragons.  By the way, who is the other Faceless Man in play?  "Pate" (aka Jaqen) is the only I know of.

Hi Nevets.   Arya is the other Faceless Man.   In that Pate's already spent a fair amount of time at the Citadel, I'm not so certain he's there for the forces of chaos.   Seems to me he would have made his move by now if he was up to no good.   Then again, perhaps Marwyn leaving in haste was the opportunity he was waiting for.   We know so little about the FM and their agenda.   They just seem so incredibly elusive to me.   I can't help but wonder if they have infiltrated the Citadel to thwart the Maester's plan. 

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm all for narrowing all the playing fields.   This story has to get on the main road(s).  I'm sort of attached to Doran a little bit.   I want to see if he's serious about not killing children and I'd like a little head to head between he and Cersei is all.   See where 17 years of harboring vengeance leaves him.   Arienne is going to have to do something to impress me as I think she's a ding a ling.  I still contend that DarkStar is the most dangerous man in Dorne because he believes in the hairbrained ideas Arienne dreams up. 

Back to Arya...she needs to go home and learn what she really is.  The ID changing will serve her well in concert with her warg abilities if she ever figures out she has them and what they are.   But she's also got some very hard plain old human being lessons to learn, where you and I completely concur.   I'm not sure Arya will be able to shed her FM education, but I do expect her to put it to better use as Arya Stark instead of No One.    

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Ah, JonCon......I think that his determination to right the wrongs he thinks he did Rhaegar before he dies will lead him to support Aegon's impulsiveness in a way he would not have done before. There is this exchange at the end of The Griffin Reborn in Dance:

The prince sat. "We've been talking with Strickland and Flowers. They told us about this attack on Storm's End that you're planning."

Jon Connington did not let his fury show. "And did Homeless Harry try to persuade you to delay it?"

"He did, actually," the prince said, "but I won't. Harry's an old maid, isn't he? You have the right of it, my lord. I want the attack to go ahead … with one change. I mean to lead it."

I am quite sure that Aegon will lead it. But, when we compare this to JonCon's caution when Tyrion first encounters the band of exiles on Shy Maid, it is clear that JonCon's undergone a few changes since then. And he has also expressed his desire to seat Aegon on the Iron Throne before he dies - something that will come a lot sooner than he previously expected now that he has contracted greyscale. I do wonder if the greyscale will spread throughout Westeros as the sweating sickness did throughout England after Henry Tudor arrived with an army of sellswords to claim the throne? Anyway, I quite like the idea of JonCon reaching KL in Winds and crossing paths with Cersei. In Clash, when KL was under threat from Stannis, Cersei had this advice for Sansa:

"Try not to sound so like a mouse, Sansa. You're a woman now, remember? And betrothed to my firstborn." The queen sipped at her wine. "Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I'd have a better chance of seducing his horse." She noticed the look on Sansa's face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

I'm not sure Cersei has much chance with JonCon either. As for JonCon ordering Tommen's death, we have to remember that he is seeking assistance from Dorne. And Dorne remembers as much as the North does. Any Dornish with him may seek to kill Tommen as vengeance for what happened during the Sack of KL. Not only that, will Aegon consider Tommen's death vengeance for that of Rhaenys and Elia? Hmm, interesting to speculate - and to consider the effect of greyscale on the undead. 

I did wonder about Taena, now that you've brought it up. Of course, we see Cersei's request for Taena through Kevan's eyes and so don't know what Cersei is thinking. For the moment, however, I am more inclined to think Cersei completely ignorant of any double-dealing Taena may be involved in. Personally, I am of the line of thought that believes Taena to be as much a triple agent as the Kettleblacks (though with Varys as her ultimate backer rather than LF) and that her role is to provoke discord between Cersei and the Tyrells. You are right, I did post elsewhere about the impact Pycelle's death will have on Margaery's trial. As it stands, Taena is the only person really in a position - other than the Kettleblacks, who I am not sure would be deemed reliable - to accuse Cersei of plotting to get Margaery arrested and found guilty of adultery.  I think I said that Pycelle's death would actually go against Margaery as he is no longer in a position to withdraw his accusation, or to give evidence. When he admits to Cersei in Feast that he provided Margaery with moon tea, it seems there is something else he might want to say:

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. "Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man." Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. 

I have theorized before that Margaery may not have wanted moon tea for the reason Cersei thinks. Just as in our world doctors prescribe the contraceptive pill for reasons other than birth control, I wonder if moon tea can perhaps also be used to deal with some menstrual problems. That would account for Margaery wanting the tea for herself and being innocent of the charges against her. She and her cousins seem very close - if the moon tea was for one of them, you would think the girl in question would have confessed by now to save the others?

Your spreadsheet sounds interesting - particularly the mention of swords. I wonder if we will see the reappearance of Dark Sister and/or Blackfyre before the end of Winds? The whereabouts of Dark Sister is unknown, but I suspect that one of the Raven's Teeth may have ensured that the sword left KL and went north with Bloodraven. I doubt a valyrian sword would have gone unnoticed in the armory at Castle Black for long - especially with someone as capable as Donal Noye in charge of it. If the sword went north with Bloodraven (as I suspect it did) then the likelihood is he had it on him when he 'disappeared' (it makes sense to me for the LC of the Watch to take such a sword with him on a ranging). Bloodraven seems to have taken an interest in Jon, that much is clear from the odd behavior of Mormont's raven, and I think he sees some of himself in Jon (this goes back to parallels again, but I don't see Jon as Bloodraven 2.0, and I think he shares as many characteristics with Aegon V The Unlikely as he does with Bloodraven). It wouldn't shock me to see Bloodraven arrange for Dark Sister, should he still have it, to fall into Jon's hands. When Jon is given Longclaw in Thrones, he thinks of swords plural - 

When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. He twitched his burned fingers, feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin. "My lord, you honor me, but—"

Then, later in the same chapter:

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of … 

In Dark Sister, Jon could wield a sword that belonged to his forefathers. Blackfyre, on the other hand, is I think in the hands of the Golden Company. In The Mystery Knight, the conspirators are keen to discover whether or not Daemon II Blackfyre carries his father's sword. But, after years of plotting and the aftermath of the failure at Regrass Field, I don't think Bittersteel would allow the sword to be taken over the Narrow Sea to Westeros without some sort of victory being won first. He had to ensure that the sword remained in the hands of the Blackfyre claimants. And therefore, it could not be risked in battle. 

The second Jon quote above also makes me think about a few story lines that could merge in Winds. The GNC, the aftermath of the Battle of Ice, Robb's will and Jon. All of the northern strands of the plot could merge - after all, we already have the Pink Letter bringing the plot lines at Winterfell and the Wall together. 

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of … 

Will Winds be the book in which Jon discovers his heritage? Robb's will has been missing since Storm, and was headed right for Howland Reed - the man with so much knowledge that we've not yet been permitted to meet him on page. Personally, I am a bit apprehensive for Jon in Winds if this is the case. Aside from whatever his body has to go through following the Ides of Marsh, I think that finding out about his heritage would destroy him mentally and emotionally. He has a huge hole in his life where his mother should be (one made bigger by the distance between Jon and his step-mother, leaving him without any sort of maternal figure in his live except Old Nan) and as such, he has built his identity and his entire sense of self upon the one thing he believes to be true - that he is Ned Stark's son. His entire belief system, the motivations for what he does, his sense of self.....all of it is based in Jon trying to prove that he is worthy of being called Ned Stark's son. When he runs off in Thrones, it is to prove this worthiness. 

Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.

Then.......to find out that his whole identity is based upon a lie, and that Ned lied to him every day for almost fifteen years? It will destroy Jon, and that could have an impact on the War for the Dawn and the other northern story lines. I have to say, talking of merging story lines - should JonCon be captured before Aegon takes KL, or arrested after Aegon is defeated, and JonCon is then sent to the Wall, it would be interesting to see the two Jons interact. That said, I don't see such interaction as likely. 

PLEASE let Winds be the book in which Jon discovers his heritage.   Don't worry Dame.   I think Jon has suffered so much ostracism in his life that the truth will actually include him in something and he may very well be stronger for it.    I've vacillated between what Jon should know--what HR should tell him.   I think HR should lay it all out for him.   Let him know that he suffered so much to protect him from certain death.   That his uncle loved him and promised his mother, who also loved him to do...? That his father may have loved him.   That he was brought into this world to fulfill an important ancient prophesy.  And that Robb loved him as a brother regardless of surname.  (I really do hope Robb at least legitimized and offered some deal to the Watch to release him from the vows.)  Jon could use all the help he can get.    Particularly if he's going to be an effective leader.   Maybe we'll get some blood and fire out of him when he learns the real score.   And maybe not, this is only my leaning this week.   All I know is that if HR gives Jon the information and then swears the vow his own children swore to Bran it could focus all Jon's energies in positive proactive ways.  As you point out above, Jon's already got inklings of the truth and there are those dreams of the crypts where he's so sure he doesn't belong...

You know, I like this idea about Jon Con going to the Wall, or at least in the proximity of Jon.   If they were both to learn the truth wouldn't that be something.   Would they send someone with greyscale to the Wall?  

Poor Tommen.  Another innocent caught in the cross fire of these wicked machinations of the people who should protect him.   Poor guy.   I hope Marg can save him, though it seems most unlikely.   Still I hope for some wildly imaginative trick from GRRM to spare this innocent boy.  Let Cersei think he's dead and do what she needs to do with that.  

[dornishdame]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

PLEASE let Winds be the book in which Jon discovers his heritage.   Don't worry Dame.   I think Jon has suffered so much ostracism in his life that the truth will actually include him in something and he may very well be stronger for it.    I've vacillated between what Jon should know--what HR should tell him.   I think HR should lay it all out for him.   Let him know that he suffered so much to protect him from certain death.   That his uncle loved him and promised his mother, who also loved him to do...? That his father may have loved him.   That he was brought into this world to fulfill an important ancient prophesy.  And that Robb loved him as a brother regardless of surname.  (I really do hope Robb at least legitimized and offered some deal to the Watch to release him from the vows.)  Jon could use all the help he can get.    Particularly if he's going to be an effective leader.   Maybe we'll get some blood and fire out of him when he learns the real score.   And maybe not, this is only my leaning this week.   All I know is that if HR gives Jon the information and then swears the vow his own children swore to Bran it could focus all Jon's energies in positive proactive ways.  As you point out above, Jon's already got inklings of the truth and there are those dreams of the crypts where he's so sure he doesn't belong...

You know, I like this idea about Jon Con going to the Wall, or at least in the proximity of Jon.   If they were both to learn the truth wouldn't that be something.   Would they send someone with greyscale to the Wall?  

Poor Tommen.  Another innocent caught in the cross fire of these wicked machinations of the people who should protect him.   Poor guy.   I hope Marg can save him, though it seems most unlikely.   Still I hope for some wildly imaginative trick from GRRM to spare this innocent boy.  Let Cersei think he's dead and do what she needs to do with that.  

Yeah, don't get me wrong - long term I think that this will strengthen Jon, but short term it will have a destructive effect. Partly because I think that he will be more wolfish upon his return, and therefore more prone to anger (though some may see it as the awakening of the dragon within). The crypt dreams are, I think, significant - and I wouldn't be surprised if, following the Ides of Marsh, Jon sees that dream all the way through without interruption. I think his initial reaction to Rhaegar will be that his father was a spoiled and selfish man who abandoned his wife and two young children to the care of a madman to run off with Jon's mother (not actually the case, given that Elia was on Dragonstone when Rhaegar left her, but I think Jon will be left with this impression). But I think he may then recall Ygritte, and the way he felt torn in two when he had to choose between her and the Watch, and how he wondered at the time whether his father had experienced a similar struggle - 

A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I'd abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. It need never happen again. He was still a man of the Night's Watch, and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven.

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet. He thought of the weirwoods again, and the words he'd said before them. It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again.

It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard. The wildlings were stirring by then, and several could not help but notice what was going on beneath the pile of furs. Jarl told them to be quick about it, before he had to throw a pail of water over them. Like a pair of rutting dogs, Jon thought afterward. Was that what he'd become? I am a man of the Night's Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother's bed? (Jon III in Storm)

They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. (Jon V in Storm)

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. (Jon VI in Storm)

As for JonCon and his greyscale....I'm not entirely sure that they would send someone to the Wall with greyscale normally, but this is Cersei we are talking about. All things are possible! Particularly if she thought Jon Snow was still in charge, or at least in the proximity.....remember her plot to remove Margaery was tied in with one to remove Jon Snow.

Ah, we come back to sweet, doomed Tommen. Part of me thinks that sweet Tommen doesn't deserve to die just because of who his parents are. But then, neither did Aegon and Rhaenys. I think it goes back to the Tyrion quote about how we are simply the puppets of our parents and their parents. And so, as much as I don't want him to, I think sweet Tommen will die in Winds. His death will be vengeance for the actions of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch during the Sack of KL, who were acting on Tywin's orders. His death will be vengeance for the loss of Elia and Oberyn. And, if the Tyrells defect to another ally, even in part, it may well be vengeance for Margaery, and what she suffered at Cersei's hands. 

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Yeah, don't get me wrong - long term I think that this will strengthen Jon, but short term it will have a destructive effect. Partly because I think that he will be more wolfish upon his return, and therefore more prone to anger (though some may see it as the awakening of the dragon within). The crypt dreams are, I think, significant - and I wouldn't be surprised if, following the Ides of Marsh, Jon sees that dream all the way through without interruption. I think his initial reaction to Rhaegar will be that his father was a spoiled and selfish man who abandoned his wife and two young children to the care of a madman to run off with Jon's mother (not actually the case, given that Elia was on Dragonstone when Rhaegar left her, but I think Jon will be left with this impression). But I think he may then recall Ygritte, and the way he felt torn in two when he had to choose between her and the Watch, and how he wondered at the time whether his father had experienced a similar struggle - 

A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I'd abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. It need never happen again. He was still a man of the Night's Watch, and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven.

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet. He thought of the weirwoods again, and the words he'd said before them. It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again.

It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard. The wildlings were stirring by then, and several could not help but notice what was going on beneath the pile of furs. Jarl told them to be quick about it, before he had to throw a pail of water over them. Like a pair of rutting dogs, Jon thought afterward. Was that what he'd become? I am a man of the Night's Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother's bed? (Jon III in Storm)

They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. (Jon V in Storm)

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. (Jon VI in Storm)

As for JonCon and his greyscale....I'm not entirely sure that they would send someone to the Wall with greyscale normally, but this is Cersei we are talking about. All things are possible! Particularly if she thought Jon Snow was still in charge, or at least in the proximity.....remember her plot to remove Margaery was tied in with one to remove Jon Snow.

Ah, we come back to sweet, doomed Tommen. Part of me thinks that sweet Tommen doesn't deserve to die just because of who his parents are. But then, neither did Aegon and Rhaenys. I think it goes back to the Tyrion quote about how we are simply the puppets of our parents and their parents. And so, as much as I don't want him to, I think sweet Tommen will die in Winds. His death will be vengeance for the actions of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch during the Sack of KL, who were acting on Tywin's orders. His death will be vengeance for the loss of Elia and Oberyn. And, if the Tyrells defect to another ally, even in part, it may well be vengeance for Margaery, and what she suffered at Cersei's hands. 

Hi Dame--glad you brought up Jon's conflict over Ygritte.   He has experienced what he imagines his father Ned has experienced in loving and leaving Ygritte.   Still he holds Ned in the highest esteem, the epitome of the man Jon hopes to be.   I wonder if this conflict will come back into play as he considers the foul nature of the organization he is pledged to?   I wish I could be decisive and simply believe this or that about the remnants of the NW in the aftermath of Jon's injury or death.   Oh man, it was only a few months ago I was so sure he was dead.    Do you find it curious that Jon so often speaks with Ygritte in his head throughout Dance?   He's sort of adopted her as his conscience.  Interesting how he can separate himself from her death in this manner.   Is that how we may expect him to revive?  As the self appointed conscience of the NW?   All  this vengeance, years of simmering vengeance should come to fruition in TWOW.  I suspect Jon has no small amount of score evening to see to himself.  Righteous vengeance perhaps?  This should be very good if we ever get to read it.  I wonder if Jon will continue to speak with Ygritte when he comes back from the little (or big) death? 

Of course you're right about Tommen in light of Aegon & Rhaenys.  The past is immutable so there is little point in lumping a live child with the tragedy of Elia's children (other than to prepare for the future I suppose?)  I'd still like Marg to abscond with Tommen, for no reason other than she's fond of him and to protect him from his mother's madness. Of course, she may be mad herself upon release and do way with Tommen herself.   I wonder about the legacy of the Lannisters.    It would be such a waste to lose any of these great families in the main lines.  

[dornishdame]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Dame--glad you brought up Jon's conflict over Ygritte.   He has experienced what he imagines his father Ned has experienced in loving and leaving Ygritte.   Still he holds Ned in the highest esteem, the epitome of the man Jon hopes to be.   I wonder if this conflict will come back into play as he considers the foul nature of the organization he is pledged to?   I wish I could be decisive and simply believe this or that about the remnants of the NW in the aftermath of Jon's injury or death.   Oh man, it was only a few months ago I was so sure he was dead.    Do you find it curious that Jon so often speaks with Ygritte in his head throughout Dance?   He's sort of adopted her as his conscience.  Interesting how he can separate himself from her death in this manner.   Is that how we may expect him to revive?  As the self appointed conscience of the NW?   All  this vengeance, years of simmering vengeance should come to fruition in TWOW.  I suspect Jon has no small amount of score evening to see to himself.  Righteous vengeance perhaps?  This should be very good if we ever get to read it.  I wonder if Jon will continue to speak with Ygritte when he comes back from the little (or big) death? 

Of course you're right about Tommen in light of Aegon & Rhaenys.  The past is immutable so there is little point in lumping a live child with the tragedy of Elia's children (other than to prepare for the future I suppose?)  I'd still like Marg to abscond with Tommen, for no reason other than she's fond of him and to protect him from his mother's madness. Of course, she may be mad herself upon release and do way with Tommen herself.   I wonder about the legacy of the Lannisters.    It would be such a waste to lose any of these great families in the main lines.  

Regarding Ygritte - I think his relationship with her will be significant for many reasons, and one of them is that it gives him an 'in' on his birth father. It gives him a connection to Rhaegar. Both had sworn vows, and both broke those vows for a woman. I don't think Ygritte has become his moral compass as such as I think Ned has always had, and will always have, that role for Jon. Ned is the role model that Jon has always looked up to and lived his life by. Ned is at the core of his belief system and his concept of honor and what it means to be dishonorable.

I sometimes find it hard to remember that Dance takes place concurrently with Feast (in fact, next time I do a re-read, I think I am going to follow the combined reading order so that I read chapters chronologically). In Jon's early Dance chapters in particular, he is still grieving seriously for Ygritte. Her death is still very raw, and in a way I think Jon's election as LC serves as a way of allowing him to bury himself in his work to deal with her death. She crops up so much partly because he has no idea how to deal with it, in truth. He had never been in love before, and he and Ygritte didn't separate because they fell out of love.....they separated because of Jon's sense of honor - that bit of Ned in him that he runs his life by. Ygritte also crops up so much because of her famous line...."you know nothing, Jon Snow". Jon has, in fact, learned a lot from her and is now putting that into practice. He realizes that the wildlings are as much part of the realms of men as he is, and he understands what the true war is.

"Your Grace is mistaken." You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte used to say, but he had learned. "The babe is no more a prince than Val is a princess. You do not become King-Beyond-the-Wall because your father was." (Jon I in Dance)

Iron Emmett grimaced. "Men are men, vows are words, and words are wind. You should put guards around the women."

"And who will guard the guards?" You know nothing, Jon Snow. He had learned, though, and Ygritte had been his teacher. If he could not hold to his own vows, how could he expect more of his brothers? But there were dangers in trifling with wildling women. A man can own a woman, and a man can own a knife,Ygritte had told him once, but no man can own both. Bowen Marsh had not been all wrong. Hardin's Tower was tinder waiting for a spark.  (Jon VII in Dance)

"As you wish. We will keep the giant here." Truth be told, he would have been loath to part with Wun Wun. You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte might say, but Jon spoke with the giant whenever he could, through Leathers or one of the free folk they had brought back from the grove, and was learning much and more about his people and their history. He only wished that Sam were here to write the stories down. (Jon VIII in Dance)

Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew. Ygritte had taught him that. Gerrick's daughters shared her same flame-red hair, though hers had been a tangle of curls and theirs hung long and straight. Kissed by fire. "Three princesses, each lovelier than the last," he told their father. "I will see that they are presented to the queen." Selyse Baratheon would take to these three better than she had to Val, he suspected; they were younger and considerably more cowed. Sweet enough to look at them, though their father seems a fool. (Jon XII in Dance)

"Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings," the queen said, "descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers."

No, Jon might have said, Gerrick is descended from a younger brother of Raymun Redbeard. To the free folk that counted about as much as being descended from Raymun Redbeard's horse. They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII in Dance)

Throughout Dance, Jon becomes more and more knowledgeable about the wildlings and their way of life, and focuses more on the true war (to the consternation of the likes of Bowen Marsh). Ygritte is the source of this change - it all started with her, and his feelings for her. And it is, I think, something that will be taken forward into Winds. The lessons he has learned from Ygritte will place Jon in an excellent position to recruit the wildlings for the War for the Dawn, something that he had in truth begun in Dance, when he invited the Mole's Town wildlings to return to the Wall and live alongside the Watch and prepare for the true War in exchange for food.  I can see the Watch falling apart slowly and then quickly in Winds. In fact, I think the end of Winds will be when the Others breach the Wall (whether that is through the Wall coming down in full or in part, or the magics that bind them to north of the Wall - as Coldhands is - failing). And then, Bowen Marsh and his ilk will realize that, in fact, Jon Snow knew a bit more than nothing. 

I sort of see Jon's role, once he is conscious again, in Winds as a rallying point for the north and a point of unity between the northerners and the wildlings. Remember, the northerners - particularly those living near the Gift - have dealt with wildling raids their entire lives. It will take either a Stark or someone with Stark blood to bind them all together. And I think Jon will take this role. I think the Watch will cast him out and he will be left to maintain his vow to be 'the shield that guards the realms of men' in his own way. This will fit in with the other northern story lines we have at the end of Dance, with the GNC, the Battle of Ice etc. 

I completely agree with Winds being the book in which vengeance for past wrongs comes to the fore. In the south, JonCon and the Golden Company want Dorne to join Aegon's cause. 

"We will not be alone. Dorne will join us, must join us. Prince Aegon is Elia's son as well as Rhaegar's." (The Lost Lord in Dance)

"Has the time come to raise his banner?" asked Pease.

"Not yet. Let King's Landing think this is no more than an exile lord coming home with some hired swords to reclaim his birthright. An old familiar story, that. I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne." That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell." (The Griffin Reborn in Dance)

And Doran has planned for a long time to get justice for his sister -

She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood." (The Princess in The Tower in Feast)

As I said in my last post, I think that poor Tommen will be a victim in this quest for vengeance. Sadly, I don't see Margaery or any of the Tyrells rescuing the poor boy. He is too much in Cersei's clutches and should Loras return to KL as a Kingsguard (something that is by no means certain) I believe Cersei would try as far as possible to ensure that Tommen was never alone with Loras. She knows about Loras and Renly's relationship and makes it clear in Feast that she wants her son to have nothing to do with his brother-in-law.

And then there is the northern quest for vengeance in the person of Lady Stoneheart. I won't go into too much detail about the lady herself, as I think we have already discussed that in depth, but suffice it to say, I don't think Winds will be a good book in which to be a Frey. Daven Lannister is due to marry one of them, so there will be a large number of Freys all gathering in one place. That makes them easier, in some ways, to take out. But then, the Freys may also implode in Winds. When Lord Walder dies, there will be an internal family struggle for The Twins and for any other lands they hold. Old grudges and internal alliances will be important in securing Lord Walder's worldly goods. The we have Emmon, Walder's son and now Lord of Riverrun - how many guards will remain when he and his travel to the wedding, and will the castle have fallen back into the hands of the Tullys by the time he returns? If he returns. I expect a lot of movement and story lines merging in the Riverlands in Winds. 

The legacy of the Lannisters..........we know from Maggy the Frog's prophecy that Cersei's children will die before she does; and I cannot see Myrcella and/or Tommen being old enough to have children before their deaths. Jaime is a Kingsguard and Tyrion is twice married and twice separated (can be twice divorced/annulled as the non-consummation of his marriage to Sansa will allow a High Septon to declare it invalid). I cannot see him reigniting his relationship with either Tysha or Sansa, and I cannot see him marrying another. I think the future of the Lannisters will fall to Tywin's nephews. Lancel is likely to go the way of Baelor the Blessed, and Willem is dead, leaving Martyn Lannister as the only one of Kevan's sons likely to continue the family line. There is an interesting theory somewhere on the forums regarding Tyrek Lannister and the possibility that Varys kidnapped him during the riots that followed Myrcella's departure to Dorne. It is an intriguing theory, and could become relevant if Tywin and Kevan's descendants die out. 

As for the other major families, the Arryns, the Baratheons and the Greyjoys seem - to the reader - to be closest to dying out. Sweetrobin is the last Arryn left, and the amount of sweetsleep he is being fed on LF's orders is suspicious. The accession of Harry the Heir would mean that Sansa is the Lady of the Vale (and LF can control the Vale through her, or so he thinks). I am torn on whether Sweetrobin will die or not. Part of me thinks there is such a clear push for him to die, that he may just survive. The Baratheons will die out in the legitimate line if there are no cousins we are unaware of to take the place of Shireen. If any of Robert's sons are legitimized, it will likely be Edric Storm as he seems to be the only one born to a lady of high birth. As for the Greyjoys, I am not sure if Theon is even capable of fathering children at this stage, and I don't think Euron and Victarion will live long enough to marry and see legitimate children grow up. And, as I think I have said before, I don't see Asha surviving Winds. 

The Starks may seem to in-book characters to have died out, but we know that Bran and Rickon remain alive, and that Rickon may (hopefully will) rejoin the general northern story lines in Winds. Rickon is, I think, the best chance of continuing the Stark name and line, though Robb's will could complicate that - assuming Jon is made aware of it, and accepts the contents, before Rickon's return. That leaves the Tullys, the Targaryens, the Martells and the Tyrells. Roslin is pregnant, and hopefully she and Edmure will be rescued in the Winds prologue, so all things are possible for the Tullys. And, as I said above, Emmon Frey will have to leave Riverrun for the Devan Lannister wedding (given his wife Genna is a Lannister herself, it is unlikely they would miss this) - it would be interesting to see Edmure try to retake Riverrun with the help of the Brotherhood while Emmon is away. The Tyrell line is seemingly secure through Garlan - though I am intrigued to see what he and Willas get up to in Winds - if the Ironborn attack Oldtown, will we see one or both of them killed? So many of the other main families have suffered casualties. Sadly, I think the time has come for the Tyrells to join them. 

Finally, the Targaryens and the Martells (and, once again, this post seems to be so much longer than I intended it to be!). Quentyn is dead, so Doran's chances of grandchildren lie with Arianne and Trystane. Given her animosity towards Daenerys and Quentyn, I can see Arianne wedding Aegon to trump her brother and take the Iron Throne as queen consort. Sadly, I think this will result in her death as I cannot see Aegon living past the end of Winds. Or, at the most, the early part of Dream. Many must sit upon the Iron Throne before the end, and Aegon's reign will not be a long one. That leaves Doran with Trystane - and a line that will probably only be secure if he keeps his last child with him in Dorne.

I have left the Targaryens for last because there are so many unanswered questions and possibilities - and because I cannot see which route they will go. Will Jon be declared/found to be legitimate? A legitimate Jon trumps Daenerys in the line of succession. We know from the miscarriage she suffers at the end of Dance that Daenerys can conceive a child, though it is not yet clear if she can carry one to term. Ohhhhhh........I am going to wimp out here and say that I just don't know!! I know there are a lot of people who see Jon and Daenerys together at the end of Dream. I am not yet sure how I feel about that. In a way, it would be a bittersweet ending. They would both have lost their true loves in Ygritte and Drogo and be marrying for duty. Jon does not, I feel, truly want to be king. Lord of Winterfell, yes, that was something he grew up wanting....but sitting the Iron Throne? No. Not after he knows what kingship cost Robb. And Daenerys, after sacrificing so much for something she believed she wanted.......yet, in truth, I think she craves the house with the red door and a normal, quiet, private life. 

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Regarding Ygritte - I think his relationship with her will be significant for many reasons, and one of them is that it gives him an 'in' on his birth father. It gives him a connection to Rhaegar. Both had sworn vows, and both broke those vows for a woman. I don't think Ygritte has become his moral compass as such as I think Ned has always had, and will always have, that role for Jon. Ned is the role model that Jon has always looked up to and lived his life by. Ned is at the core of his belief system and his concept of honor and what it means to be dishonorable.

I sometimes find it hard to remember that Dance takes place concurrently with Feast (in fact, next time I do a re-read, I think I am going to follow the combined reading order so that I read chapters chronologically). In Jon's early Dance chapters in particular, he is still grieving seriously for Ygritte. Her death is still very raw, and in a way I think Jon's election as LC serves as a way of allowing him to bury himself in his work to deal with her death. She crops up so much partly because he has no idea how to deal with it, in truth. He had never been in love before, and he and Ygritte didn't separate because they fell out of love.....they separated because of Jon's sense of honor - that bit of Ned in him that he runs his life by. Ygritte also crops up so much because of her famous line...."you know nothing, Jon Snow". Jon has, in fact, learned a lot from her and is now putting that into practice. He realizes that the wildlings are as much part of the realms of men as he is, and he understands what the true war is.

"Your Grace is mistaken." You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte used to say, but he had learned. "The babe is no more a prince than Val is a princess. You do not become King-Beyond-the-Wall because your father was." (Jon I in Dance)

Iron Emmett grimaced. "Men are men, vows are words, and words are wind. You should put guards around the women."

"And who will guard the guards?" You know nothing, Jon Snow. He had learned, though, and Ygritte had been his teacher. If he could not hold to his own vows, how could he expect more of his brothers? But there were dangers in trifling with wildling women. A man can own a woman, and a man can own a knife,Ygritte had told him once, but no man can own both. Bowen Marsh had not been all wrong. Hardin's Tower was tinder waiting for a spark.  (Jon VII in Dance)

"As you wish. We will keep the giant here." Truth be told, he would have been loath to part with Wun Wun. You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte might say, but Jon spoke with the giant whenever he could, through Leathers or one of the free folk they had brought back from the grove, and was learning much and more about his people and their history. He only wished that Sam were here to write the stories down. (Jon VIII in Dance)

Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew. Ygritte had taught him that. Gerrick's daughters shared her same flame-red hair, though hers had been a tangle of curls and theirs hung long and straight. Kissed by fire. "Three princesses, each lovelier than the last," he told their father. "I will see that they are presented to the queen." Selyse Baratheon would take to these three better than she had to Val, he suspected; they were younger and considerably more cowed. Sweet enough to look at them, though their father seems a fool. (Jon XII in Dance)

"Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings," the queen said, "descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers."

No, Jon might have said, Gerrick is descended from a younger brother of Raymun Redbeard. To the free folk that counted about as much as being descended from Raymun Redbeard's horse. They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII in Dance)

Throughout Dance, Jon becomes more and more knowledgeable about the wildlings and their way of life, and focuses more on the true war (to the consternation of the likes of Bowen Marsh). Ygritte is the source of this change - it all started with her, and his feelings for her. And it is, I think, something that will be taken forward into Winds. The lessons he has learned from Ygritte will place Jon in an excellent position to recruit the wildlings for the War for the Dawn, something that he had in truth begun in Dance, when he invited the Mole's Town wildlings to return to the Wall and live alongside the Watch and prepare for the true War in exchange for food.  I can see the Watch falling apart slowly and then quickly in Winds. In fact, I think the end of Winds will be when the Others breach the Wall (whether that is through the Wall coming down in full or in part, or the magics that bind them to north of the Wall - as Coldhands is - failing). And then, Bowen Marsh and his ilk will realize that, in fact, Jon Snow knew a bit more than nothing. 

I sort of see Jon's role, once he is conscious again, in Winds as a rallying point for the north and a point of unity between the northerners and the wildlings. Remember, the northerners - particularly those living near the Gift - have dealt with wildling raids their entire lives. It will take either a Stark or someone with Stark blood to bind them all together. And I think Jon will take this role. I think the Watch will cast him out and he will be left to maintain his vow to be 'the shield that guards the realms of men' in his own way. This will fit in with the other northern story lines we have at the end of Dance, with the GNC, the Battle of Ice etc. 

I completely agree with Winds being the book in which vengeance for past wrongs comes to the fore. In the south, JonCon and the Golden Company want Dorne to join Aegon's cause. 

"We will not be alone. Dorne will join us, must join us. Prince Aegon is Elia's son as well as Rhaegar's." (The Lost Lord in Dance)

"Has the time come to raise his banner?" asked Pease.

"Not yet. Let King's Landing think this is no more than an exile lord coming home with some hired swords to reclaim his birthright. An old familiar story, that. I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne." That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell." (The Griffin Reborn in Dance)

And Doran has planned for a long time to get justice for his sister -

She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood." (The Princess in The Tower in Feast)

As I said in my last post, I think that poor Tommen will be a victim in this quest for vengeance. Sadly, I don't see Margaery or any of the Tyrells rescuing the poor boy. He is too much in Cersei's clutches and should Loras return to KL as a Kingsguard (something that is by no means certain) I believe Cersei would try as far as possible to ensure that Tommen was never alone with Loras. She knows about Loras and Renly's relationship and makes it clear in Feast that she wants her son to have nothing to do with his brother-in-law.

And then there is the northern quest for vengeance in the person of Lady Stoneheart. I won't go into too much detail about the lady herself, as I think we have already discussed that in depth, but suffice it to say, I don't think Winds will be a good book in which to be a Frey. Daven Lannister is due to marry one of them, so there will be a large number of Freys all gathering in one place. That makes them easier, in some ways, to take out. But then, the Freys may also implode in Winds. When Lord Walder dies, there will be an internal family struggle for The Twins and for any other lands they hold. Old grudges and internal alliances will be important in securing Lord Walder's worldly goods. The we have Emmon, Walder's son and now Lord of Riverrun - how many guards will remain when he and his travel to the wedding, and will the castle have fallen back into the hands of the Tullys by the time he returns? If he returns. I expect a lot of movement and story lines merging in the Riverlands in Winds. 

The legacy of the Lannisters..........we know from Maggy the Frog's prophecy that Cersei's children will die before she does; and I cannot see Myrcella and/or Tommen being old enough to have children before their deaths. Jaime is a Kingsguard and Tyrion is twice married and twice separated (can be twice divorced/annulled as the non-consummation of his marriage to Sansa will allow a High Septon to declare it invalid). I cannot see him reigniting his relationship with either Tysha or Sansa, and I cannot see him marrying another. I think the future of the Lannisters will fall to Tywin's nephews. Lancel is likely to go the way of Baelor the Blessed, and Willem is dead, leaving Martyn Lannister as the only one of Kevan's sons likely to continue the family line. There is an interesting theory somewhere on the forums regarding Tyrek Lannister and the possibility that Varys kidnapped him during the riots that followed Myrcella's departure to Dorne. It is an intriguing theory, and could become relevant if Tywin and Kevan's descendants die out. 

As for the other major families, the Arryns, the Baratheons and the Greyjoys seem - to the reader - to be closest to dying out. Sweetrobin is the last Arryn left, and the amount of sweetsleep he is being fed on LF's orders is suspicious. The accession of Harry the Heir would mean that Sansa is the Lady of the Vale (and LF can control the Vale through her, or so he thinks). I am torn on whether Sweetrobin will die or not. Part of me thinks there is such a clear push for him to die, that he may just survive. The Baratheons will die out in the legitimate line if there are no cousins we are unaware of to take the place of Shireen. If any of Robert's sons are legitimized, it will likely be Edric Storm as he seems to be the only one born to a lady of high birth. As for the Greyjoys, I am not sure if Theon is even capable of fathering children at this stage, and I don't think Euron and Victarion will live long enough to marry and see legitimate children grow up. And, as I think I have said before, I don't see Asha surviving Winds. 

The Starks may seem to in-book characters to have died out, but we know that Bran and Rickon remain alive, and that Rickon may (hopefully will) rejoin the general northern story lines in Winds. Rickon is, I think, the best chance of continuing the Stark name and line, though Robb's will could complicate that - assuming Jon is made aware of it, and accepts the contents, before Rickon's return. That leaves the Tullys, the Targaryens, the Martells and the Tyrells. Roslin is pregnant, and hopefully she and Edmure will be rescued in the Winds prologue, so all things are possible for the Tullys. And, as I said above, Emmon Frey will have to leave Riverrun for the Devan Lannister wedding (given his wife Genna is a Lannister herself, it is unlikely they would miss this) - it would be interesting to see Edmure try to retake Riverrun with the help of the Brotherhood while Emmon is away. The Tyrell line is seemingly secure through Garlan - though I am intrigued to see what he and Willas get up to in Winds - if the Ironborn attack Oldtown, will we see one or both of them killed? So many of the other main families have suffered casualties. Sadly, I think the time has come for the Tyrells to join them. 

Finally, the Targaryens and the Martells (and, once again, this post seems to be so much longer than I intended it to be!). Quentyn is dead, so Doran's chances of grandchildren lie with Arianne and Trystane. Given her animosity towards Daenerys and Quentyn, I can see Arianne wedding Aegon to trump her brother and take the Iron Throne as queen consort. Sadly, I think this will result in her death as I cannot see Aegon living past the end of Winds. Or, at the most, the early part of Dream. Many must sit upon the Iron Throne before the end, and Aegon's reign will not be a long one. That leaves Doran with Trystane - and a line that will probably only be secure if he keeps his last child with him in Dorne.

I have left the Targaryens for last because there are so many unanswered questions and possibilities - and because I cannot see which route they will go. Will Jon be declared/found to be legitimate? A legitimate Jon trumps Daenerys in the line of succession. We know from the miscarriage she suffers at the end of Dance that Daenerys can conceive a child, though it is not yet clear if she can carry one to term. Ohhhhhh........I am going to wimp out here and say that I just don't know!! I know there are a lot of people who see Jon and Daenerys together at the end of Dream. I am not yet sure how I feel about that. In a way, it would be a bittersweet ending. They would both have lost their true loves in Ygritte and Drogo and be marrying for duty. Jon does not, I feel, truly want to be king. Lord of Winterfell, yes, that was something he grew up wanting....but sitting the Iron Throne? No. Not after he knows what kingship cost Robb. And Daenerys, after sacrificing so much for something she believed she wanted.......yet, in truth, I think she craves the house with the red door and a normal, quiet, private life. 

Brilliant, Dame...I find myself preoccupied again with thoughts regarding Jon and his myriad possible futures.   I've been operating most recently, under the assumption that there are 3 main roads in this story, but now I wonder if they are indeed all leading to 1 beyond Winds.  You give me so much to consider with all this careful thought.  Thanks to all the wonderful response from so many thoughtful readers I admit I have been aligning forces in my own mind to follow 1 or another of each of the 3 paths.   I expected Winds to end with the 3 roads clearly defined and it may still be.  As your insightful posts illuminate, there is so much to consolidate.  So much to lose still.  Though you've been very reserved in not making any outright major predictions your clear logic is not hard to follow.  

The only small thing I want to clarify is the part about Ygritte becoming Jon's conscience.   I meant this rather like Stannis has Mel and Davos whispering in his ear to very different ends--good voice/bad voice as it were.   Yes, Ned is Jon's standard and the man by all others are measured.   I meant only with Ygritte that Jon so often uses her own words to him to center himself in conflict--to recall himself to the realities of his situations and perhaps to laugh at himself a bit.   She loved him and wasn't caught up in his ego.   He reminds himself of this often and I think it's very sweet and mature for a young man in impossible circumstances to make her memory so much a part of his life after her.     

[dornishdame]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Brilliant, Dame...I find myself preoccupied again with thoughts regarding Jon and his myriad possible futures.   I've been operating most recently, under the assumption that there are 3 main roads in this story, but now I wonder if they are indeed all leading to 1 beyond Winds.  You give me so much to consider with all this careful thought.  Thanks to all the wonderful response from so many thoughtful readers I admit I have been aligning forces in my own mind to follow 1 or another of each of the 3 paths.   I expected Winds to end with the 3 roads clearly defined and it may still be.  As your insightful posts illuminate, there is so much to consolidate.  So much to lose still.  Though you've been very reserved in not making any outright major predictions your clear logic is not hard to follow.  

The only small thing I want to clarify is the part about Ygritte becoming Jon's conscience.   I meant this rather like Stannis has Mel and Davos whispering in his ear to very different ends--good voice/bad voice as it were.   Yes, Ned is Jon's standard and the man by all others are measured.   I meant only with Ygritte that Jon so often uses her own words to him to center himself in conflict--to recall himself to the realities of his situations and perhaps to laugh at himself a bit.   She loved him and wasn't caught up in his ego.   He reminds himself of this often and I think it's very sweet and mature for a young man in impossible circumstances to make her memory so much a part of his life after her.     

I agree with you regarding Jon and Ygritte. I just re-read Jon X in Dance as part of my ongoing search for parallels between Jon and Egg and Jon and Bloodraven, and it made me think about how he uses Ygritte as a sort of reference point in anything wildling-related. It is almost as if he wants to show her how much he has learned from her; that the time she spent telling him of her people and their history was not in vain. I also wonder if she becomes part of his inner consciousness more and more because of the way he isolates himself - sending Sam and Aemon to the Citadel; his friends to Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower; Edd and Emmett to Long Barrow. He needs someone to help him cope and he chooses Ygritte, or rather his memory of her. There are so many paths that Jon can follow in Winds and - hopefully! - also in Dream. I hate using words like 'fate' and 'destiny'. But I think Jon has one - to fight in the War of the Dawn. 

[Nevets]

Sorry to be gone so long, but I've been busy, and there hasn't been much that really requires a response.  But a few comments:

Faceless Men - Arya is not a Faceless Man; she is an apprentice, and I don't see that changing.  I doubt she will be doing any solo missions of great importance.  She is neither sufficiently trained or trusted.  As for Pate, I think he is doing research, probably on dragons - there have been several mentions of dragonlore hidden at the Citadel.

Brotherhood - Everyone seems to assume that any rescue attempt on Edmure and Jeyne Westerling is going to succeed.   I see no reason it necessarily would.  Jaime sent a huge contingent (400 men) with them, which would make any rescue attempt very difficult and risky..  George doesn't always let the good guys win, and this is another example where they could easily lose, with disastrous consequences.

Lannisters - I actually think that Tyrion and Sansa could potentially rekindle things under the right circumstances, which would include Tyrion no longer being associated with Cersei.  I see them as a possible Beauty and the Beast, kindalike San/San.  I don't know that they will, but I see it as a possibility.  As for Tyrek, it is not just on the forums that there is speculation about Varys spiriting him away during the riot.  Jaime seriously considers it as a possibility.

That's all I have for now.  I haven't really thought about it much lately.

[Curled Finger]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 2:38 PM, dornishdame said:

I agree with you regarding Jon and Ygritte. I just re-read Jon X in Dance as part of my ongoing search for parallels between Jon and Egg and Jon and Bloodraven, and it made me think about how he uses Ygritte as a sort of reference point in anything wildling-related. It is almost as if he wants to show her how much he has learned from her; that the time she spent telling him of her people and their history was not in vain. I also wonder if she becomes part of his inner consciousness more and more because of the way he isolates himself - sending Sam and Aemon to the Citadel; his friends to Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower; Edd and Emmett to Long Barrow. He needs someone to help him cope and he chooses Ygritte, or rather his memory of her. There are so many paths that Jon can follow in Winds and - hopefully! - also in Dream. I hate using words like 'fate' and 'destiny'. But I think Jon has one - to fight in the War of the Dawn. 

The whole Jon/Ygritte thing is so well, bittersweet.  It's a lovely and sad story.  While I agree with you that Jon has isolated himself it was necessary to send people he trusted precisely to the places they were sent.   It's unfortunate that Jon was unable to amass more support from the NW.  I wonder if Sam, Gilly, the baby and Maester Aemon would have been sent away at all if Mel had not been in house?   Like most things, the purpose will likely be two fold, but still...

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Sorry to be gone so long, but I've been busy, and there hasn't been much that really requires a response.  But a few comments:

Faceless Men - Arya is not a Faceless Man; she is an apprentice, and I don't see that changing.  I doubt she will be doing any solo missions of great importance.  She is neither sufficiently trained or trusted.  As for Pate, I think he is doing research, probably on dragons - there have been several mentions of dragonlore hidden at the Citadel.

Brotherhood - Everyone seems to assume that any rescue attempt on Edmure and Jeyne Westerling is going to succeed.   I see no reason it necessarily would.  Jaime sent a huge contingent (400 men) with them, which would make any rescue attempt very difficult and risky..  George doesn't always let the good guys win, and this is another example where they could easily lose, with disastrous consequences.

Lannisters -would include Tyrion no longer being associated with Cersei.  I see them as a possible Beauty and the Beast, kindalike San/San. I actually think that Tyrion and Sansa could potentially rekindle things under the right circumstances, which  I don't know that they will, but I see it as a possibility.  As for Tyrek, it is not just on the forums that there is speculation about Varys spiriting him away during the riot.  Jaime seriously considers it as a possibility.

That's all I have for now.  I haven't really thought about it much lately.

Hi Nevets, you've got me there on Arya being only an apprentice.  And I'm really glad you bring up dragon research.   I spot read AWOIAF for facts and background and happened upon a Citadel at Dragon Stone.  Now I looked this up and Citadel is really little more than a library.   Why would an FM go to the Reach for dragon lore when there is a library at Dragon Stone, the former seat of the Dragon Lords?   I imagine there is plenty at Dragon Stone we will never really find out about--maybe we will get blue prints some day.   Dragon Stone just seems to be so readily discarded so perhaps I'm missing something here.   But I thought it was interesting.   Any chance Pate is after something else? 

I think Jeyne represents the last hope for many readers who want her to be pregnant.   And Edmure (baby isn't born yet, can't count on anything you don't see on page!) is sort of end of the line for the Tullys.   The whole exchange between Jamie & Black Fish was so interesting particularly when BF tells Jamie protecting Jeyne is his 1st priority.  Most of us became sympathetic to Jeyne when we saw  her through Jamie's eyes.  Maybe it all has something to do with the crowns--Jamie secured Jeyne's crown and LSH has Robb's--I can't put it all together but I figure Jeyne's crown will be important somehow since it never really was before--it was all about Robb's crown.   I don't think I even realized Jeyne had a crown until Jamie rescued it.  Are these crowns destined to be reunited for some reason we haven't yet been clued in on?  We all want revenge for all the wrongs the Tullys and Starks suffered.   Support for the rescue is just a really good chance for getting a little.   If this rescue doesn't go well what happens to all the players--a chunk of the BWB, Nym & her pack, BF and whomever is backing him?  Best as I recall, no one in this party is a POV.   What is the point of killing off a bunch of non-POVs in an area where there is so much going on?    For all its worth, some well placed archers, maybe a fire, some crazy wolves and justice starved vigilantes may have a good chance at pulling this off.  And it could as easily come down to the rescue failing completely--all conspirators dead--then the wolf pack eats all the survivors of the captors' party.   You're right, we can't expect anything good to happen.  I'd like to know if you believe there will be some action taken against the Freys and Lannisters at RR during the upcoming wedding.  

Nevets, you romantic. I can see how it could be possible.  I want Tyrion to find someone who just loves him for him--I like Arienne Martell for this because she is above his station and sounds like his dream date to me.   Same for Sansa, not Arienne, but some grounded gallant romantic (Wyllas really did sound like a winner to me) who will have the wherewithal to protect her in every sense.   Let Tyrion and Sansa become strong allies and each fall madly in love with some deserving other characters.   Of course by the end of this series it may well be that no one has any station then all bets are off.   So long as these characters end up alive and well with a bit of happiness, acceptance and love I'll be OK with it. 

[Wendel Shoemaker]

Battle of Mereen will be through the eyes of Tyrion, Bariston, Victarion and Danny (maybe). More like Blackwater in that we get multiple views of the same fight. I'll go along with the idea that Bariston dies and we reduce to Tyrion, Danny and Victarion. Victarion will live but his roles will be primarily show through other POV's. He'll get his own once in a while.

Arianne and Jon Con will have a similar number of chapters, with Arianne having a little more.

Mel will have one or two, with Jon following afterwards.

Asha and Theon will be a mix, might see a bit more Asha depending on where the story goes. Either way they will supplement each other.

Sansa will have more chapters than in Feast, Arya will have very spread out chapters in the beginning.

Cersai will have much fewer chapters, but will still be around for a while.

We will see more Jaime than Brienne, but they will compliment each other.

I don't necessarily think we're going to lose a bunch of POV's, I just think unlike previous books we won't have 3 characters with 10 chapters each, but a few major chapters with around 7 chapters each with a larger variety of POV's inbetween. There will be a lot of characters with only 2-4 chapters.