Matthew. Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Myths have a tendency to exaggerate; the terrifying Others of legend were just ice wildlings, and the ice spiders were just herds of ice sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Tijgy said: I am just rereading Jon's chapter about Craster's keep and about Craster's sacrifices to the Others. People mostly believe that his sons are turned into new Others. So with that idea in mind I read the parts about his sacrifices. And I started to wonder about something (something ridiculous I admit). Gilly says: "He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started to give them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till..." (Gilly's baby is born). Jon says later: "My lord, Craster has no sheep. Nor any sons." So apparently the Others are happy enough with the sheep. So if you follow the idea that the Others use Craster's sons to make new Others, what is the use then of the sheep? Do they think this is just a sign Craster is still afraid of them? Or do they use those sheep for something else? Are they maybe also transforming those sheep, like for example ice sheep? Or are they completely totally not important and is the absence of them just used by the writer to have an ominous atmosphere? Something is picking up the infants and sheep and it could be simple men, wildling men, and if that is the case they are eating the sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Matthew. said: No need to overthink the sheep--they're just symbols of Craster's obeisance to the "cold gods," since sheep were common offerings in cultures that practiced animal sacrifice. The significance is in the act itself, and what it says about Craster - that his self-perception of "godliness" is sincere - rather than what happens to the sheep. We're told that Craster is fond of mutton, so giving them up to the white walkers is a genuine sacrifice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 5 hours ago, shizett said: This is a good point. You are right about rangings south of the wall, but I do not agree on Winterfell. Taking and holding Winterfell is not ranging, it is holding a very major power base south of the wall. This would mean the location of wall needs to changed from where it is now to somewhere lower than Winterfell. Not necessarily, all it takes is for the Starks to become client kings, ruling the marches beyond the Wall as the Votadini did for the Roman Wall, which is why I referenced Craster, and am basically suggesting that the Starks were once client kings, until the Nights King business. At any rate its worth bearing in mind that in the synopsis GRRM talks of the climactic battle taking place at Winterfell - not on the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 As client kings, (had to google that one) who would have been the "Emporer"? Client kings were nomi- nally independent and probably not liable to tribute, but required to make ad hoc payments on demand and contribute troops to the Roman army. In everyday administration, political relations were often tripartite between king, governor, and emperor. "Client kings" In: The Encyclopedia of Ancient History - Wiley Online ... Kings of Winter? note the capitalization....not kings of the season of winter but kings of the deific personification of winter. Kings subordinate to Winter Winter is coming? be prepared with payment/troops? could this have something to do with the crypts in Winterfell? Iron swords keeping the troops in place til they are called for. Is this why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Yeah, that's the sort of thing I have in mind, with the Stark Kings of Winter being in hock to the Old Gods - remember that line by the Halfhand about the gods of the First men and the Starks. And of course as we've often remarked in Heresy; "Winter is coming" is a battle-cry, not a reminder to lay in extra firewood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 BC, just to make it more clear for myself, you believe the WW are a group of rangers trying to get a hold of the wall (acting on behalf of another race) , which they had lost control over many many years ago and reestablish Starks as Client Kings. And that they believe it is doable with a couple of rangers and the army of dead (or if not, we haven't seen the worst of them yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 OK... We know that the white walkers are not a race, but are created in their present form by some kind of magic, through Craster giving up his sons. This is also evident from their being not very many of them, even during the Long Night. They range through the woods as the black rangers do but for any big operations they need help; in the form of the wights. What some of us are arguing here in Heresy is that because they are created by magic rather than bred, somebody has to be doing that creating and the most likely magic-users are the three-fingered tree-huggers. The suggestion here is that when the Last Hero cried pax, the Children called off their dogs, the Wall was raised as the demarcation line between the realms and the Starks established as their client kings to rule the North as a buffer zone. Instead the Nights King was overthrown by his brother in Winterfell and the black rangers took over the Wall. Now, as the Halfhand warned, the old powers are wakening, and they want it all back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 13 hours ago, WitteRaaf said: As client kings, (had to google that one) who would have been the "Emporer"? Client kings were nomi- nally independent and probably not liable to tribute, but required to make ad hoc payments on demand and contribute troops to the Roman army. In everyday administration, political relations were often tripartite between king, governor, and emperor. "Client kings" In: The Encyclopedia of Ancient History - Wiley Online ... Kings of Winter? note the capitalization....not kings of the season of winter but kings of the deific personification of winter. Kings subordinate to Winter Winter is coming? be prepared with payment/troops? could this have something to do with the crypts in Winterfell? Iron swords keeping the troops in place til they are called for. Is this why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell? 4 hours ago, Black Crow said: Yeah, that's the sort of thing I have in mind, with the Stark Kings of Winter being in hock to the Old Gods - remember that line by the Halfhand about the gods of the First men and the Starks. And of course as we've often remarked in Heresy; "Winter is coming" is a battle-cry, not a reminder to lay in extra firewood. OR...as the apparent heretic within Heresy, I think it is the complete opposite. The Starks were positioned in Winterfell to keep winter in check and without a Stark in Winterfell there's no one to stop winter when it comes. All the folk stories tell about how the Lord of Winterfell had to go deal with some infraction. He took the Nights King down, who was so aligned with winter that he married an Other and was found guilty of sacrificing children to the Others, so to say that the Starks are subordinate to winter is contradictory to not just the Nights King story, but everything that we've read so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Nights King/Bael parallel? maybe the nights King sought to challenge/steal/usurp the power of Winter through a daughter of Winter. This would make the Starks loyalists and the nights King a rebel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Nah, I'm still with the notion that the Starks were client Kings of Winter until one of them overthrew his brother, the Nights King, And in answer to Shizett's point, no its not just the white rangers and their undead followers who are going to try and retake the Wall and Winterfell; the Old Powers have already got Bran Stark, while Sansa Stark has taken the snowflake communion and Jon too, after his swithering, will also have done it when he went face down in the snow at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 on a completely unrelated note (sorry) I found something that, at the very least, I found interesting and I thought I would share. garnet:regeneration, vitality, order brings order to chaos offers protection from evil during travel, nightmares, and wounds assists in success of ones career makes your life purpose clear used to access ancient memories through past life regression increases commitment, honesty, hope, and faith overcomes crisis and trauma assists in diminishing or eliminating abandonment issues enhances sensuality, sexuality, and intimacy brings inner strength associated with the element fire associated with the planet Rahu Rahu is not technically a planet. It is one of the two lunar nodes, the north node Rahu is also called the head of the dragon hmmmm......... Jon is associated with garnets through longclaw, and this seems to fit him pretty well if R+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 12 hours ago, Black Crow said: And in answer to Shizett's point, no its not just the white rangers and their undead followers who are going to try and retake the Wall and Winterfell; the Old Powers have already got Bran Stark, while Sansa Stark has taken the snowflake communion and Jon too, after his swithering, will also have done it when he went face down in the snow at the end. I am not sure what can Sansa do. I am not sure how much GRRM will invest in Sansa's bloodline, because my understanding of character is although having grown up in the North, she is culturally very southern. It is really hard for me to imagine any northern future for Sansa. Also as for Jon, I am not sure if he was so ignorant of "snow communion" as he keeps remembering Robb with "snowflakes melting in his hair", apparently that was very significant for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 8 hours ago, WitteRaaf said: on a completely unrelated note (sorry) I found something that, at the very least, I found interesting and I thought I would share. garnet:regeneration, vitality, order brings order to chaos offers protection from evil during travel, nightmares, and wounds assists in success of ones career makes your life purpose clear used to access ancient memories through past life regression increases commitment, honesty, hope, and faith overcomes crisis and trauma assists in diminishing or eliminating abandonment issues enhances sensuality, sexuality, and intimacy brings inner strength associated with the element fire associated with the planet Rahu Rahu is not technically a planet. It is one of the two lunar nodes, the north node Rahu is also called the head of the dragon hmmmm......... Jon is associated with garnets through longclaw, and this seems to fit him pretty well if R+L=J Very nice. I think some people have said it in the past, you can look at some of Jon's rereads, you might find a lot of other like minded people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 On 1/23/2016 at 0:45 PM, Black Crow said: OK... We know that the white walkers are not a race, but are created in their present form by some kind of magic, through Craster giving up his sons. This is also evident from their being not very many of them, even during the Long Night. They range through the woods as the black rangers do but for any big operations they need help; in the form of the wights. What some of us are arguing here in Heresy is that because they are created by magic rather than bred, somebody has to be doing that creating and the most likely magic-users are the three-fingered tree-huggers. The suggestion here is that when the Last Hero cried pax, the Children called off their dogs, the Wall was raised as the demarcation line between the realms and the Starks established as their client kings to rule the North as a buffer zone. Instead the Nights King was overthrown by his brother in Winterfell and the black rangers took over the Wall. Now, as the Halfhand warned, the old powers are wakening, and they want it all back. Thanks for putting it all together, makes it much easier to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: OR...as the apparent heretic within Heresy, I think it is the complete opposite. The Starks were positioned in Winterfell to keep winter in check and without a Stark in Winterfell there's no one to stop winter when it comes. All the folk stories tell about how the Lord of Winterfell had to go deal with some infraction. He took the Nights King down, who was so aligned with winter that he married an Other and was found guilty of sacrificing children to the Others, so to say that the Starks are subordinate to winter is contradictory to not just the Nights King story, but everything that we've read so far. It is actually very cool that the two complete accounts that you and BC are showing has the same elements, but interprets them very differently. Especially, the whole lot of Snow in WF can be interpreted as some form of ritual in BC's account, and the actual Winter who's coming in yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, shizett said: I am not sure what can Sansa do. I am not sure how much GRRM will invest in Sansa's bloodline, because my understanding of character is although having grown up in the North, she is culturally very southern. It is really hard for me to imagine any northern future for Sansa. Also as for Jon, I am not sure if he was so ignorant of "snow communion" as he keeps remembering Robb with "snowflakes melting in his hair", apparently that was very significant for him. I have to disagree on Sansa, she changed, remembered she was a daughter of Winterfell and stopped being a victim after she took the communion. Jon was twice offered the communion; "dance with you anon" but never actually took it, before falling face down in the snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 24 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I have to disagree on Sansa, she changed, remembered she was a daughter of Winterfell and stopped being a victim after she took the communion. Jon was twice offered the communion; "dance with you anon" but never actually took it, before falling face down in the snow. Oh I agree that she has strength and that she has changed after the experience in Eyrie, just not enough or in a way that is Northern. Winterfell seems to be where she was safe and loved. Never in any of her thoughts or actions, has she shown she is ready for the responsibility that comes with it. At least that's my take, I am fine with being proven wrong (I have read Sansa rereads and I have tried to think differently, no success yet. I am looking at H162, where I think you guys are discussing snowflake communion. If I read something that changes my mind, I'll put it here ) Which incidents are you talking about with Jon? Twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, shizett said: Oh I agree that she has strength and that she has changed after the experience in Eyrie, just not enough or in a way that is Northern. Winterfell seems to be where she was safe and loved. Never in any of her thoughts or actions, has she shown she is ready for the responsibility that comes with it. At least that's my take, I am fine with being proven wrong (I have read Sansa rereads and I have tried to think differently, no success yet. I am looking at H162, where I think you guys are discussing snowflake communion. If I read something that changes my mind, I'll put it here ) Which incidents are you talking about with Jon? Twice? Can't cite chapter and verse on Jon with the snowflake but the first time he is walking [just outside the Wall as I recall] and the second time, when he recalls the "you will dance with me anon" conversation with Alys Karstark he is descending the Wall in the elevator. A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You'll dance with me anon. As for Sansa, she may have had a veneer of Southern ambitions, but in the end she's still a daughter of Winterfell and it has been suggested that if Arya remains too young, Sansa may replace her in having a relationship with Jon, especially as she was the one who was once most hostile to him because of his bastardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, shizett said: It is actually very cool that the two complete accounts that you and BC are showing has the same elements, but interprets them very differently. Especially, the whole lot of Snow in WF can be interpreted as some form of ritual in BC's account, and the actual Winter who's coming in yours. Don't have a link but Redriver has posted a pretty detailed theory suggesting that the snow-storms referred to actually originate in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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