Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[Guest Other-in-law]

And one last time his duty was to guard the king not judge him which Ser Gerold tried to explain to him. Which meant keeping Aerys safe at all costs and something the Kingslayer failed to do. Get it?

Do you admit that Hightower's postion was in favour of blind obedience then? That's the choice...obey every last order the king gives you, including murdering your own father, or make a judgement call on the orders. You can't claim that they would have refused to follow his every last order without breaking their oaths when they swore an oath to obey.

This is as bad as denying the distinction between honour and morality, which even a third grader could grasp. Maybe if I use numbers it will sink in..

1. Swear oath to obey king.

2. king gives order to do something immoral.

Options:

3A. Break oath, as Jaime did.

3B. Do immoral deed.

So which would Hightower have been if he was in Jaime's shoes, an oathbreaker or an evil henchman? If he would be an oathbreaker he's a hypocrite too, but he gives every indication of having a bug up his ass named honour. There's no indication that he would have tried to stop Aerys' wildfire plot. At. All.

[A wilding]

Other-in-law, I think that you are reading way too much into Hightower's words to Jaime. He is in the position of an military officer dealing with his newest recruit. Just because he instructs that recruit does not mean that he thinks that everything he is telling the recruit also applies uncritically and without reservation to himself under all circumstances. I think that all we can safely assume is that:

- Jaime gave visible indication of his disgust and gave Hightower reason to suspect that this disgust might take an active form should Aerys do something like it again.

- Hightower wanted to stop Jaime from showing this disgust again and/or acting on it.

There are many scenarios that could explain this. It is possible that Hightower was a believer of total obedience to the king come hell or high water, but it is equally possible that he did not want young Jaime to complicate an already tricky situation by going off half cocked, or even just drawing Aerys' notice and perhaps triggering Hightower being ordered to "discipline" him.

[Guest Other-in-law]

but it is equally possible that he did not want young Jaime to complicate an already tricky situation by going off half cocked, or even just drawing Aerys' notice and perhaps triggering Hightower being ordered to "discipline" him.

If so, then he didn't have much cause. Did Jaime yell, or storm off, or make threats under his breath at the king? No. Did he say anything on that occasion? No. He just tried to pretend he wasn't there, in order to minimise the trauma caused by the horror unfolding before them all. Not a huge warning sign, imo, just a basic indication of possessing some shred of humanity. And Hightower jumps all over him for it. It looks to me like Hightower is ready to conduct a witchhunt for potential traitors.

It's interesting to compare to Joffrey's misdeeds, where some courtiers (not KG, though) actually do rebuke the king, however mildly. "That was ill-done, your Grace." Didn't make any difference to Joff, but at least they did something, and over much smaller transgressions. Aerys needed to hear that, and he needed resistance to his bad orders. Basically what Jaime is trying to encourage the new KG to do, or at least be ready to do if needed.

[snake]

If in the Kingslayers shoes Ser Gerold would most likely have prevented the wildfire from being lit and attempted to protect Aerys from the Lannisters. His duty to protect the king would mean keeping the king safe.

And Hightower jumps all over him for it. It looks to me like Hightower is ready to conduct a witchhunt for potential traitors.

IMO, it's rather easy to see that Ser Gerold was trying to instruct a young man who had just witnessed something terrible on what his duties were, not scolding him.

Basically what Jaime is trying to encourage the new KG to do, or at least be ready to do if needed.

The Kingslayer is trying to restore the order to what it once was. That is, an order where honorable and good men who are among the best fighters in the realm are willing to give up all to protect the king. I don't think he's the man to do it but he does have some experience serving with men who made the Kingsguard an institution reknown throughout the land. So at least he knows what qualities a Kingsguard should have.

[Enguerrand]

The Red Keep was going to collapse on top of them.

Your knowledge of the structural integrity of the castle is impressive, to bad you never can back your assertions.

Disguises? Slip out with the rest of the crowd?

You speculated that if they weren’t going to blow up the city its reasonable that they wanted to escape, with which I agree. I find it equally reasonable that they tried to lay low until some semblance of order was restored.

Yes. But as it is said, the plan was carried out in the utmost secrecy. They most likely would have bunkered down with the wildfire. So they might not have even bothered to emerge from their bunker (especially if they planned on committing suicide). They would have been told to ignore everything on the outisde and not start the burn until the message came or anything like that.

Seriously I can’t imagine that they isolated themselves to such a degree that missed ten of thousands people killing, raping, burning, and looting the city above, if they had the means and were willing to commit suicide what were they waiting for? It’s not like Aerys could chastise them, if he disagreed.

How is he going to torture you when he's dead? Fake the wildfire, it's not like Aerys is leaving the Red Keep anyway.

I said “in the final days of his reign “ I presume they could not know when Aerys would give the go ahead. If he still was in control of the city when this came about , there would be a reckoning, and not one were they are granted due process. But this is a pseudo-discussion, in all likelihood these guys approved.

Other in law,

I think you overstate the strictness of kingsguards oath. The vassals owes the king obedience, that is not say he can ask them to do anything.

As we see in Catelyn’s oath to Brienne, Catelyn pledges to ask no service of her that might bring Brienne into dishonor.

Notice that Catelyn does not pledge to not do anything dishonourable, just not to involve Brienne in it in a way that reflects badly on her.

Now it’s possible that the kingsguard oath is more strict, but the fact that they have sworn the knightly vows before leads me to believe that they must be compatible. Otherwise they should need to be released from the former.

I’ve great difficulty seeing Ser Gerold raping little girls at the king’s command.

If so, then he didn't have much cause. Did Jaime yell, or storm off, or make threats under his breath at the king? No. Did he say anything on that occasion? No. He just tried to pretend he wasn't there, in order to minimise the trauma caused by the horror unfolding before them all. Not a huge warning sign, imo, just a basic indication of possessing some shred of humanity. And Hightower jumps all over him for it. It looks to me like Hightower is ready to conduct a witchhunt for potential traitors.

Quite obviously Hightower saw someting in Jaime manners that suggested that he was dealing badly with the situation. It make sense to spell out the rules for Jaime that was scarcely more then a boy. Hightower likely saw a risk that Jaime would break down and do something disastrous, In hindsight we can see that Ser Gerold judged Jaime correctly. That is not to say that he thought the barbecue was a fine idea, only that junior should shut up and leave this to those whose responsibility it were to handle the king.

[Starkess]

I think you overstate the strictness of kingsguards oath. The vassals owes the king obedience, that is not say he can ask them to do anything.

As we see in Catelyn’s oath to Brienne, Catelyn pledges to ask no service of her that might bring Brienne into dishonor.

Notice that Catelyn does not pledge to not do anything dishonourable, just not to involve Brienne in it in a way that reflects badly on her.

Now it’s possible that the kingsguard oath is more strict, but the fact that they have sworn the knightly vows before leads me to believe that they must be compatible. Otherwise they should need to be released from the former.

I think the main gist of the KG vow is to protect the King, not to mindlessly obey him. So Hightower was absolutely doing his job while Jaime completely betrayed the very essence of his oath. And it doesn't seem likely that the KG vow supersedes the vows they swore as knights, just as Enguerrand says.

[A wilding]

If so, then he didn't have much cause. Did Jaime yell, or storm off, or make threats under his breath at the king? No. Did he say anything on that occasion? No. He just tried to pretend he wasn't there, in order to minimise the trauma caused by the horror unfolding before them all. Not a huge warning sign, imo, just a basic indication of possessing some shred of humanity. And Hightower jumps all over him for it. It looks to me like Hightower is ready to conduct a witchhunt for potential traitors.

Of course we are only getting Jaime's description of what happened, a description clearly aimed at shocking Catelyn. But it seems to me highly likely that Jaime reacted in some visible way, because Hightower decided to talk to him afterwards (I would call "jumping all over him" a slight exaggeration). And if Hightower noticed something, he might well be concerned that Aerys might notice it too.

Oh and there is no indication at all that Hightower objected to Jaime "going away inside" - on the contrary it would seem an effective way of avoiding judging the king.

[Daemrion]

Your knowledge of the structural integrity of the castle is impressive, to bad you never can back your assertions.

Given a lack of knowledge on both sides, everything I put up is more likely to happen than anything you post up. Don't you think it is likely that the Red Keep would fall in a wildfire explosion? Or do you not think it is likely?

You speculated that if they weren’t going to blow up the city its reasonable that they wanted to escape, with which I agree. I find it equally reasonable that they tried to lay low until some semblance of order was restored.

Why, chaos is the best time to escape if they meant to escape.

Seriously I can’t imagine that they isolated themselves to such a degree that missed ten of thousands people killing, raping, burning, and looting the city above, if they had the means and were willing to commit suicide what were they waiting for? It’s not like Aerys could chastise them, if he disagreed.

The word from Rossart or someone else to fulfil the plan. They knew nothing. They probably still thought he was alive. When they saw Jaime, they assumed that he had come to give the word from an alive Aerys.

[Enguerrand]

Given a lack of knowledge on both sides, everything I put up is more likely to happen than anything you post up.

Except that I don’t claim something to be the case that isn’t established in the series.

It’s possible that your speculation that Jaime had no choice but to kill Aerys is true , but that would run against practically all the available evidence of established circumstance.

Don't you think it is likely that the Red Keep would fall in a wildfire explosion? Or do you not think it is likely?

Unlike you, I do not know. I have never read anything about it. But I have read that the Red Keep has several levels below ground.

Why, chaos is the best time to escape if they meant to escape.

That depends on so many unknown factors that it's meaningless to speculate.

The word from Rossart or someone else to fulfil the plan. They knew nothing. They probably still thought he was alive. When they saw Jaime, they assumed that he had come to give the word from an alive Aerys.

You still claim that they somehow weren’t aware of what had happened to the city? I find it exceedingly unlikely.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Oh and there is no indication at all that Hightower objected to Jaime "going away inside" - on the contrary it would seem an effective way of avoiding judging the king.

That's what Jaime said he was doing. Hightower objected to what he was doing. Seems incredibly straightforward to me. The alternative is to assume, on the basis of absolutely zero evidence, that Jaime was doing something else, giving some more active indication of his displeasure with Aerys. Why on earth should we assume that? Just to make the White Bull into some sort of kindly old uncle?

Why not just accept the evidence we actually have about him, from both Jaime and Ned, which indicates that he was an absolutist about his vows who wanted to keep Aerys on the throne knowing full well that he was a madman? Rhaegar's words to Jaime were sympathetic and understanding, Hightower's and Darry's are about nothing but unflinching obedience. If they said anything close to what the Prince did, I would think better of them, but they just didn't.

[snake]

Other-in-Law,

The Kingslayer gave no indication that he was displeased with what Aerys had done with Lord Rickard and Brandon. However, the White Bull wasn't an idiot, as you like to believe. He realized that what the Kingslayer witnessed was a terrible thing and no doubt a shock to the young man who had not long joined their ranks. I think his talk to the Kingslayer was more about explaining the duties of the Kingsguard and why they did nothing even though what was happening was wrong.

And if you're going to paint Ser Gerold as such then you had best do the same for the rest of his brothers. Everyone of them would have done what was in their power to keep Aerys on the throne and everyone throughout the land thought highly of them and still do.

[Daemrion]

You still claim that they somehow weren’t aware of what had happened to the city? I find it exceedingly unlikely.

Well then, why did they let Jaime in or get anywhere near them?

[cosnik]

Mayhaps the Kingsguard were not so different in Aerys day from the current rabble. They had been serving Aerys for some time, and familiarty can breed acceptance of unsavory traits. Now these are warriors we are talking about, not scholarly maesters who dabble in metaphyics for the hell of it. They have been taught DUTY and HONOR, and for them that means following the king unto death. They are not in a position to make decisions, that is the reason a king exists in the first place. By our standards this is all ludicrous, but we are comtemplating a fictional medieval setting after all. If we are to ascertain anything from the actions of the KG at the Tower of Joy, it is that they follow an order to its completion, they never question.

So does Jaime deserve redemption? Not by their standards no, not ever. Which is why he will always be known as the kingslayer with shit for honor.

[snake]

I think the Kingsguard of Aerys day were a lot better than the ones today. Ser Barriston and the Kingslayer both think Tommen's Seven are pretty poor and that the Kingsguard has fallen on bad times.

When the Kingslayer mentions that Ser Balon is a good and valiant knight Ser Kevan responds "Once that went without saying when men spoke of those who wore the white cloak."

Other than the Kingslayer I can think of no one who thinks ill of Aerys Seven and the Kingslayer only does so once when drunk and bitter. I mean, many here think he's changing for the better and all we ever get from him now is praise of his former brothers.

[Enguerrand]

Well then, why did they let Jaime in or get anywhere near them?

Let? Jaime hunted them down. As to how he could find them, I suppose he would have had intimate knowledge of their thinking and retreats from his service.

[Guest Other-in-law]

the White Bull wasn't an idiot, as you like to believe.

I do? Since when? I've never questioned the White Bull's intelligence, though his apparent stance wrt his oaths is morally repugnant to me.

I think his talk to the Kingslayer was more about explaining the duties of the Kingsguard and why they did nothing even though what was happening was wrong.

It sounds more like a rebuke than the apology that he should be making.

And if you're going to paint Ser Gerold as such then you had best do the same for the rest of his brothers. Everyone of them would have done what was in their power to keep Aerys on the throne and everyone throughout the land thought highly of them and still do.

But not every one of them saw what levels Aerys was beginning to sink to. Some of them were with Rhaegar while Lord Stark was burned, and Darry was the only other one to hear the rape of the Queen. I do sort of blame Barristan for being so gung-ho at Duskendale, though. If he didn't do his one man army act maybe Aerys would have died and the realm could breath much easier under King Rhaegar. Of course hindsight is 20-20, and he couldn't have known how bad he would become.

But they should all have been praying for some mishap to befall the king, choking on a chicken bone or skewering himself on the throne. Not something they did, but some providential deliverance. Just as Arys Oakheart lit a candle in thanksgiving for his deliverance from Joffrey. I don't think they should have been giving 110% of their effort to keep Aerys alive, that's for damn sure. The king's death was the only way for the nightmare to end. Talk of a Great Council is all nice and well, but in reality a living ex-king is a constant threat, in need of squashing. Just ask Edward II or Richard II.

Why would anyone think Aerys' seven wouldn't have beaten Sansa, though, if given a direct command that they had sworn to obey? Sure, the guarding part is more important, but the obeying is still a serious oath. If they didn't think that part was a big deal they could have locked Aerys up in a tower and kept him safe until he died of old age. That would have been a better job of protecting him than letting the idiot actually decide policy and hand down "justice", and tear the realm apart and bring his dynasty crashing down.. Seriously, why didn't they do that? Answer: Because they swore a vow to obey. Just like Meryn Trant.

[snake]

I do? Since when? I've never questioned the White Bull's intelligence, though his apparent stance wrt his oaths is morally repugnant to me.

Fair enough but you do make him seem more like Mandon Moore than Ser Barriston Selmy, who was actually critical of Moore and his attitude.

It sounds more like a rebuke than the apology that he should be making.

Well, to each his own I guess. To me it seems like a commander explaining duties to a younger man.

But not every one of them saw what levels Aerys was beginning to sink to.

Only the Kingslayer knew about the warm greeting planned for Robert but the rest no doubt knew about the rest of his mad acts. They were probably all at Duskendale and saw what he done to those who defied him there. Most were probably present when he burned Lord Rickard, with the exception of maybe Dayne and Whent.

I do sort of blame Barristan for being so gung-ho at Duskendale, though.

He was doing his duty. To have acted any other way would have made him and the rest of his brothers as bad as the Kingslayer.

Why would anyone think Aerys' seven wouldn't have beaten Sansa, though, if given a direct command that they had sworn to obey?

Because they were men of honor. There job was to protect the king and beating little girls had nothing to do with that. I mean, why do you think so many people think of Tommen's Kingsguard with disdain? Because they are weak, dishonorable men. They are not fit to wear the White and most everyone knows it. Yet no where does anyone think that Aerys Seven, other than the Kingslayer, were nothing if not great knights.

[Daemrion]

Let? Jaime hunted them down. As to how he could find them, I suppose he would have had intimate knowledge of their thinking and retreats from his service.

No, we know he knew where they were and where it was going to be placed. But they aren't going to leave wildfire jars where anyone could find them, they would have done it behind closed doors or something like that (there would have been some sort of secrecy after all).

I'm not doubting that Jaime was hunting them down, I'm doubting whether or not they knew that he was hunting them down until it was too late.

It would take Jaime a bit of time to break down a door or something like that, enough time to let them light the wildfire (if they knew he was coming to get them).

I think that they didn't know until they let him in.

[Enguerrand]

I'm not doubting that Jaime was hunting them down, I'm doubting whether or not they knew that he was hunting them down until it was too late.

It would take Jaime a bit of time to break down a door or something like that, enough time to let them light the wildfire (if they knew he was coming to get them).

I think that they didn't know until they let him in.

I thought we argued from my scenario, why the the pyromancers didn't run if they knew that everything was lost. I suppose it's possible that they let Jaime close if they didn't know about Aerys fate, then again the king's death would be one of the first thing to be spread with the grapevine, simply the fact that Jaime was alive after his deathshould have generated serious mistrust.

I also find your idea that the conspirators have isolated themselves in some kind of bunkers 250 feet below ground, yet still were about to commit suicide rather funny.

[Daemrion]

I thought we argued from my scenario, why the the pyromancers didn't run if they knew that everything was lost. I suppose it's possible that they let Jaime close if they didn't know about Aerys fate, then again the king's death would be one of the first thing to be spread with the grapevine, simply the fact that Jaime was alive after his deathshould have generated serious mistrust.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I think that they didn't know. Because if they didn't know then it owuld make it a lot easier, because they made the mistake of trusting Jaime so they were stopped before they could blow up the city.

I also find your idea that the conspirators have isolated themselves in some kind of bunkers 250 feet below ground, yet still were about to commit suicide rather funny.

I would have thought it was like Black Ops. That they would be under strict operational silence until the word came. That they were told to ignore the fighting outside until word came. I mean, if they blew straight away after they saw some fighting, that may not have been the biggest death trap ever. THe point was to ensnare a lot of people, so they had to ignore what was going on outside.

And also note that none of them ever tried to claim that they were going to sabotage the plot either.