What will be the fate of House Royce?

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

1) Yes, they are knights and loyal to the Arryns. Starks bent the knee to a Targ king, their warriors participate in tourneys. They Daynes are referred to as First Men, but they are also of the Faith. Royces are still First Men. You can't give me a quote that they consider themselves Andals either. Don't change the goalposts (you never asked of a declaration of faith or heritage from them before). The Royces have a mix: they honor their bronze shield with runes (First Men heritage) and they send a son, a knight, to the Wall. The other son joins the Tyrells. Circumstantial evidence says they honor First Men heritage, but operate with an Andalized world. And it's unlikely even the Cadet Branch would have gotten marry a daughter of the Lord of WF, LP of the North without having a healthy respect for First Men and their Old Gods.

2) I never claimed that Tyrion has the authority to give the Vale to the MC. MC's will take it, with all the new stuff they were gifted by Tywin, because of Tyrion's promise and because of the hierarchal battle experience they've had in the RL and Blackwater. Tyrion's promise will come true indirectly.

3) They didn't chose it. The World Book clearly states these were people who had no FM Lord protecting them anymore. Several Houses died out in the battle on the flanks of the Giant's Lance. The houses who survived (like Royce) bent the knee. The people of the killed houses were driven off by new arriving Andals who wanted land. Even people of the surviving houses were driven off, because the surviving nobles were licking their wounds and could do nothing.

4) The IB have ships and could go into trading goods. Somebody has to do transport. What do you think those Braavosi do? They sail from one part to another, trading goods, and most of that is not their own. The Bear Islanders have a poor island. They don't reap and pillage. No they fish. The IB have land. Sure it's not the best land. But it would certainly do to provide for food. The IB have mines. But no, they feel they're too good for working land, for working in the mines themselves, to fish, to trade. They have the means to live better than Bear Islanders, but no, they want to live like Lannisters.

1) The Starks didn't marry Valyrians.

2) The North looks down on Tourneys.

3) The Daynes aren't First Men either. They started that way, but that doesn't mean that they are.

4) Translation, nothing suggests that they consider themselves First Men.

5) Right. 3,000 savages will conquer the Vale against 45,000 Vale soldiers.

6) Can I see the World Book quote?

7) Bear Island is poor. This lionization of the Mountain Clans need to stop. This ridiculous idea that the Vale should be taken from the Andals for the First Men. They're murdering, thieving rapists and the Arryns should have evicted them thousands of years ago.

[sweetsunray]

55 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) The Starks didn't marry Valyrians.

2) The North looks down on Tourneys.

3) The Daynes aren't First Men either. They started that way, but that doesn't mean that they are.

4) Translation, nothing suggests that they consider themselves First Men.

5) Right. 3,000 savages will conquer the Vale against 45,000 Vale soldiers.

6) Can I see the World Book quote?

7) Bear Island is poor. This lionization of the Mountain Clans need to stop. This ridiculous idea that the Vale should be taken from the Andals for the First Men. They're murdering, thieving rapists and the Arryns should have evicted them thousands of years ago.

1) So? Royces marry Starks and Targs. They have enough standing for both Old Gods First Men as well as Faith Targs

2) No: Ned looks down on Tourneys. Alyn, Jory, etc participate at the Hand's Tourney. Jon also says that Robb is better at "lance" while Jon's better at "sword". If the North looks down on tourneys then why would Rodrik Cassel even bother training both Jon and Robb at "lance"?

3-4)

5) Somebody else brought this up already and I already countered that argument. Read a few pages back.

6) Here you go

 

Quote

 

The fate of the defeated was far crueler. As word of the victory spread across the narrow sea, more and more longships set sail from Andalos, and more and more Andals poured into the Vale and the surrounding mountains. All of them required land—land the Andal lords were pleased to give them. Wherever the First Men sought to resist, they were ground underfoot, reduced to thralls, or driven out. Their own lords, beaten, were powerless to protect them.

Some of the First Men surely survived by joining their own blood with that of the Andals, but many more fled westward to the high valleys and stony passes of the Mountains of the Moon. There the descendants of this once-proud people dwell to this very day, leading short, savage, brutal lives amongst the peaks as bandits and outlaws, preying upon any man fool enough to enter their mountains without a strong escort. Little better than the free folk beyond the Wall, these mountain clans, too, are called wildlings by the civilized. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale)

 

 

So, some conquerer wins a battle... colonizers follow. Colonizing conquerers say to the new buddies "You pick this or that land". And those living on it already who resist their lands being taken from them are ridden down, enslaved or driven off. So, basically they had to say "thank you for taking my land from me"? BS!

 

7) This is pure speculation, but it seems that a combo of Old Gods + Fire magic is what is happening in the North, in the RL and  would again with the Burned Men end up taking out the Arryn line in the Vale. Fire magic + tree magic seems the likely combo agains the Others. It's got nothing to do with me thinking "oooooo, those evil Andals!" Evilness and righteousness depends on who wins.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

1) So? Royces marry Starks and Targs. They have enough standing for both Old Gods First Men as well as Faith Targs

2) No: Ned looks down on Tourneys. Alyn, Jory, etc participate at the Hand's Tourney. Jon also says that Robb is better at "lance" while Jon's better at "sword". If the North looks down on tourneys then why would Rodrik Cassel even bother training both Jon and Robb at "lance"?

3-4)

5) Somebody else brought this up already and I already countered that argument. Read a few pages back.

6) Here you go

So, some conquerer wins a battle... colonizers follow. Colonizing conquerers say to the new buddies "You pick this or that land". And those living on it already who resist their lands being taken from them are ridden down, enslaved or driven off. So, basically they had to say "thank you for taking my land from me"? BS!

 

7) This is pure speculation, but it seems that a combo of Old Gods + Fire magic is what is happening in the North, in the RL and  would again with the Burned Men end up taking out the Arryn line in the Vale. Fire magic + tree magic seems the likely combo agains the Others. It's got nothing to do with me thinking "oooooo, those evil Andals!" Evilness and righteousness depends on who wins.

1) However, its safest to assume they primarily married Andal.

2) Tourneys are primarily an Andal thing.

3-4) Concession accepted.

5) Thats a lot of reading.

6) Exactly. They could have mixed with the original population, but chose to head for the hills. They chose their life.

7) Translation. Northern Master Race smashes puny Andals. Its times like this that I hope Tyrion rules the North. Thats very unlikely, I know, but the Arryns dont deserve to lose their land to a bunch of murdering, rapist barbarians.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) However, its safest to assume they primarily married Andal.

2) Tourneys are primarily an Andal thing.

3-4) Concession accepted.

5) Thats a lot of reading.

6) Exactly. They could have mixed with the original population, but chose to head for the hills. They chose their life.

7) Translation. Northern Master Race smashes puny Andals. Its times like this that I hope Tyrion rules the North. Thats very unlikely, I know, but the Arryns dont deserve to lose their land to a bunch of murdering, rapist barbarians.

1-4 & 6) Lee-Sensei, we'll have to agree to completely disagree. And no: please do not translate what I say. It's called twisting words. I conceded nothing.

5) Well, read it. It's more work for me to write it all over again. If you can't be bothered to read what I wrote in this thread, then I don't see the point of contintuing this.

7) And First Men did not deserve to lose their land, be enslaved or murdered by colonizers from another contintent, either. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of that "marrying into" was a euphemism for being raped and then forced to marry the rapist. Some people call that "civilised". Ironborn call them "salt wives". So, basically you're blaming the First Men that fled to the mountains for resisting their land and their daughters taken by the colonizers. Sure, Mr. Andal you're more civilized than me, so "here is my land, so I can starve from now on, and here's my daughter too. It's not rape, because you promise to marry her."

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

1-4 & 6) Lee-Sensei, we'll have to agree to completely disagree. And no: please do not translate what I say. It's called twisting words. I conceded nothing.

5) Well, read it. It's more work for me to write it all over again. If you can't be bothered to read what I wrote in this thread, then I don't see the point of contintuing this.

7) And First Men did not deserve to lose their land, be enslaved or murdered by colonizers from another contintent, either. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of that "marrying into" was a euphemism for being raped and then forced to marry the rapist. Some people call that "civilised". Ironborn call them "salt wives". So, basically you're blaming the First Men that fled to the mountains for resisting their land and their daughters taken by the colonizers. Sure, Mr. Andal you're more civilized than me, so "here is my land, so I can starve from now on, and here's my daughter too. It's not rape, because you promise to marry her."

1) Of course you did.

2) I cant be bothered to read every page. You made the claim. You back it up.

3) That was 6000 years. Get over it. The Royces did well for themselves. The First Men could have too. The First Men do not have a monopoly on honor and moral righteousness. They were not innocent bystanders. They played the game and they lost. Plus, did the Andals enslave people. Besides that, the Mountain Clans are the rapists here.

[Schwarze Sonne]

I agree with sweetsunray, but I don't think Vale mountain clans would be able to hold the Vale for long. Timett will take the Eyrie (already in ruins) and control over Vale through his birthright, but he'd participate the the Dance 2.0 siding with Dany and Tyrion against fAegon. The mountain clans might start to learn how to rule with Timett, but they surely are not the same as their counterpart in the North since they're still a group of unruly bandits and rapists. Timett will lead mostly his mountain clan to the war, with other lords following resentfully. However, he'd probably perish since Tyrion's own doom is already set and I have doubt about Daenerys not being the same kind as Rhaenyra.

I believe Hour of Wolves 2.0 will also come (why no one ever mentioned this despite always talking about how Aegon's Conquest, Blackfyre's Rebellion and Dance of the Dragons will return, I have no idea) and whoever were left wouldbe punished by execution or taking the Wall. I think House Royce will rise to become the new ruler of Vale instead. They're actually the best candidate with them being the First Men who has preserved their First Men traditions and integrated with the Andal culture.

Still, what the heck does the Royce remember?

 

@sweetsunray

Any thoughts about why Redhand is equivalent to king for the Burned Men? There are many characters with red/fiery hand connection especially Jon Snow with his burned red fingers, also the fiery fingers of R'hllor and other red/fiery imaginary. The Red Kings of Dreadfort were somewhat qualified especially the most infamous one. Timett is called for one because he sacrificed one of his eye (Jon Snow's eye is marked by scar from orell's eagle btw) but he doesn't have burned hand.

 

@Lee-Sensei

Certainly agree with you about how the mountain clans/the First Men weren't so innocent either with the loss of their lands, they brought it all upon themselves and they have no right to play victims. The Royce was smart enough to recognize the danger and adapt. Vale mountain clans is still a group of savages, bandits and rapists, no matter how much people are gonna convince themselves of their flawed democracy.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) I cant be bothered to read every page. You made the claim. You back it up.

You bothered to pick up a quote of mine after that post. I'm not asking you to read the books or to read my theory thread or the whole forum. Check my posts in this thread. It quotes the exact same non-argument you made. I already backed it up.

We're done here.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

You bothered to pick up a quote of mine after that post. I'm not asking you to read the books or to read my theory thread or the whole forum. Check my posts in this thread. It quotes the exact same non-argument you made. I already backed it up.

We're done here.

We are done here. Concession accepted.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I agree with sweetsunray, but I don't think Vale mountain clans would be able to hold the Vale for long. Timett will take the Eyrie (already in ruins) and control over Vale through his birthright, but he'd participate the the Dance 2.0 siding with Dany and Tyrion against fAegon. The mountain clans might start to learn how to rule with Timett, but they surely are not the same as their counterpart in the North since they're still a group of unruly bandits and rapists. Timett will lead mostly his mountain clan to the war, with other lords following resentfully. However, he'd probably perish since Tyrion's own doom is already set and I have doubt about Daenerys not being the same kind as Rhaenyra.

I believe Hour of Wolves 2.0 will also come (why no one ever mentioned this despite always talking about how Aegon's Conquest, Blackfyre's Rebellion and Dance of the Dragons will return, I have no idea) and whoever were left wouldbe punished by execution or taking the Wall. I think House Royce will rise to become the new ruler of Vale instead. They're actually the best candidate with them being the First Men who has preserved their First Men traditions and integrated with the Andal culture.

Still, what the heck does the Royce remember?

 

@sweetsunray

Any thoughts about why Redhand is equivalent to king for the Burned Men? There are many characters with red/fiery hand connection especially Jon Snow with his burned red fingers, also the fiery fingers of R'hllor and other red/fiery imaginary. The Red Kings of Dreadfort were somewhat qualified especially the most infamous one. Timett is called for one because he sacrificed one of his eye (Jon Snow's eye is marked by scar from orell's eagle btw) but he doesn't have burned hand.

 

@Lee-Sensei

Certainly agree with you about how the mountain clans/the First Men weren't so innocent either with the loss of their lands, they brought it all upon themselves and they have no right to play victims. The Royce was smart enough to recognize the danger and adapt. Vale mountain clans is still a group of savages, bandits and rapists, no matter how much people are gonna convince themselves of their flawed democracy.

While I agree with you that Tyrion seems to go to the dark side and there is a good chance he won't stay on top, I don't even see why people think Timett woudl be eager to ally himself with Tyrion again. Tyrion might think so, but that's actually a red herring imo. Here's the summary of Timett so far in the books

• Tyrion learns that the youth Timett is the most feared man of the clans basically: Burned Men are feared by every other clan, and Burned Mean fear their Red Hand Timett. We also get that story of how he ripped a man's throat out in KL for trying to cheat him. Bronn is fascinated by it.
• But somehow Tyrion ends up relying on Timett to always do what Tyrion asks of him or orders him to do. If anything needs to be done he asks for Timett or tells Timett to do it. But how odd is is that the most feared clan guy, even by his own clan members, almost gets to be Tyrion's fetch dog? And Tyrion never seems to consider the obvious contradiction here once he's in KL. Instead, he thinks of Timett as the most loyal and useful clansman.
• The last mention really of Timett is how he and his clansmen left immediately after the Blackwater. Sure, we get this story of Chella offering her services again. But Timett took his booty and went straight back to the Mountains of the Moon, not even bothering to contact Tyrion. So, that choice contradicts Tyrion's belief that Timett is his most loyal clansman.

My conclusion is that Timett put up with Tyrion, because he thought it useful for his own goals and intents, and it had nothing to do with Tyrion. Timett is no more loyal to Tyrion than Sansa is obedient. Tyrion fooled himself about Timett. And no, I highly doubt that Timett would hail Tyrion if he returns. I think Timett is an ambitious and very much determined young man who was smart enough to regard self-sacrifice of his eye and his pride to learn what he felt he needed to learn to achieve his ambitions.

Well, I don't actually think a Red Hand = king, but closest to it, like a Magnar is closest to it. Tyrion wondering what the king of the Burned Men would sacrifice is one of the earliest hints we have that Tyrion fails to recognize several clues about Timett, because he regards him from his prejudices Westeros mind. It therefore is also ironic.

As for the title itself: There is a real world Red Hand myth (Irish), about an heirless situation and several men vying for the kingship after the previous king died. So, they agree to hold a race in boats where the first man whose hand touches the soil again wins the kingship. One of the men realizes he's about to lose, and he cuts off his own hand, throws it towards the land. Since his hand touches the soil first, he ended up gaining the kingship. So, here we have Red Hand + self sacrifice + gaining the rule in an heir dispute situation. And then with Timett we have a Red Hand + self sacrifice (eye + letting Tyrion boss him around) + a hint at a Burned Men being the possible rival heir to Harry (strictly speaking). BTW it's not that obscure a legend - the Red Hand sigil was used as a symbol in Irish resistance. So, the Red Hand has not so much to do with a burned hand, but with self sacrifice to get what you want. The Red Hand is a cut off hand, red from blood.

I agree that the Mountain Clans are not "innocent". I never disagree with the accusation that they are murderous, raiding thieves who steal possessions, food and women. But at the time of the Andal colonization - they were victims. Even Yandel calls it "cruel". Nor were the Andals a better civilised people - they killed women in the hills of Pentos, accusing them of being witches, pretty much mysogynistic, and they were thieves and rapists and enslavers just as well. It's the basics of colonization: take the land of those before you, turn them into slaves, take the daughers to wife and chase the ones you can't use off to some land where none of yours wish to live. Their sole advantage was that they had iron, while First Men had bronze. Of course, the nowadays "Andals" are not the same people as those first Andals. Just like the current First Men like the Starks obviously are not the same people who murdered CorF before the pact with them. Just because Andals managed to win their conquering does not guarantee they remain to be boss, nor is it evidence of being "more civilized" at the time of their conquering. And my sole point was that since being driven off into the Mountains, we have no foundation to claim that no clan would be open to changing their raiding ways if they have a better position, especially with regards to food resources. Stannis and Jon's way of dealing with the wildlings revealed that at least a great amount of previous murdering rapists were willing to change their raiding lifestyle to that of a settlement. We'll still have to see whether that will succeed. But Alys' husband sounds promising.

And in that way, George has given several hints of the Burned Men showing promise of open mindedness: they're supposed to be a split off band who either worshipped a fire witch or a dragonrider. Doesn't sound like being close-minded about worship. Then as soon as Tyrion takes Timett as his escort to the small council along with Bronn, we learn that Timett went off exploring. This is a curious man, curious into castles, life of nobility, cities, etc... And finally they are the seeming sole tribe who seems to be used with some form of hierarchy - Timett's men listen to Timett, Timett does what Tyrion tells him...And one of the common features with mountain clans is that hierarchy seems an alien concept to them. So, the Burned Men differ from that too.

[Protagoras]

On 2016-02-22 at 9:15 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Maybe he would think it is honoruble? He would also get his blood into the main Royce line.

He was a friend of Jon Arryn.

Maybe his son will die? Or get a nice position, like knight of the vale.

All just what if's

Yeah, but you don´t base your choices on If´s. You base them on what you can get and keep in your possession as well as what your friends are willing to do for you in return. Vale is honourable to a fault - worth and stature based on your actions works as a concept only if the participants have approximately equal resources in the first place. In addition - Vale lords have the tendency to scoff on lords they find less prestigeous. But if you are one of those, lesser, lord you have little incentive of following the rules.

The situation is that Jon Arryn is dead and there is a power struggle going on in the Vale. It is not very clear for non-readers (Don´t forget that Nestor doesn´t know who really killed Jon Arryn) who is in the right. In such a situation you go after the one giving you the most and showing you the most appreciation for your support. The honour of Yohn Royce actually works against him here - he is, like Ned, unwilling to give something to people he deems should support him, yet fails to get that not everyone have a strong lordship and the respect of its peers from the start. Indeed - the way you present the marriage (The only reward you think Nestor can reasonably expect to get) as an honour to Nestor, that he will be able to marry his daughter in a "finer family" proves to me that you fail to see the issue here. As you present it - it is actually an insult.

In short - it doesnt matter what you or what Yohn Royce believes is honourable and just. What matters is what you are willing to give to a person who has something you need despite you innard belief that such a person deserves nothing, and if you do give nothing then nothing is what you will get back. Stop make the If´s and pay up or lose a potential ally - if you are saying to me "I want you to give me 50$ and in return you will see these beautiful chicks naked" we might have a deal. If you say "I want you to give me 50$ and in return MAYBE you will see these beautiful chicks naked (Big If´s)", I will tell you to go screw yourself.