Atlas of Ice and Fire

[Werthead]

Geographic Map 6: The Riverlands

This required a lot of toing and froing through references to work out where everything this in relation to everything else, and I still had to make some judgement calls.

It does look the like the otherwise inexplicable "salient" of Westerlands territory into the Riverlands is there to explain how Gregor Clegane's raiders got to Wendish Town without crossing most of the Riverlands first undetected. At least that makes a bit more sense now.

[Lord Varys]

@Werthead & @Free Northman Reborn:

We should keep in mind that the Manderlys seem to have been one of the most powerful houses in the Reach with a longstanding chivalric tradition (the whole Order of the Green Hand thing). They seemed to have continued that tradition in the North. While the other Northern lords certainly also have their share of cavalry it is quite likely that the culture of the Manderlys and their followers - as well as the money they have - allows them to train and feed more knights than their peers.

But we should also keep in mind that White Harbor didn't send all that many men to Robb, explaining why their losses might not have been as severe as they could have been had they sent more.

In regards to the Manderly influence in the east I'd say that Lord Wyman is talking about his informal power here. There is a chaos and a power vacuum in the North with various factions vying for power. A regional power like the Manderlys can exercise much more power in such setting than they would normally do (Roose is clawing his way to the top in the same climate, after all).

But we also should keep in mind that Manderlys seem to be very prestigious and powerful house throughout the entire Realm. Lord Dustin and Lord Manderly were the only Northern lords aside from Lord Ellard Stark attending the Great Council. Lord Manderly was honored with the hand of a Targaryen princess, and the Manderlys played a key role during the Dance and the Regency of Aegon III (and, as I expect, also during many later events in Westerosi history we might learn about in 'Fire and Blood').

The changes in the Reach in regards to the Hightower vassals are especially noteworthy because we have reason to believe that the Beesburys and Costaynes are not exactly weak houses themselves. The houses down there near Oldtown are pretty powerful.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Geographic Map 6: The Riverlands

This required a lot of toing and froing through references to work out where everything this in relation to everything else, and I still had to make some judgement calls.

It does look the like the otherwise inexplicable "salient" of Westerlands territory into the Riverlands is there to explain how Gregor Clegane's raiders got to Wendish Town without crossing most of the Riverlands first undetected. At least that makes a bit more sense now.

The lands of house Hogg are in the Crownlands, al do they are near the stream that is the border between the Crownlands and the Riverlands, so house Hogg is not a Riverland house. This is very clearly stated in Feast for Crows, there is no ambiguety about that fact.

[Werthead]

On 04/02/2017 at 4:36 PM, direpupy said:

The lands of house Hogg are in the Crownlands, al do they are near the stream that is the border between the Crownlands and the Riverlands, so house Hogg is not a Riverland house. This is very clearly stated in Feast for Crows, there is no ambiguety about that fact.

Yeah, I misremembered that, so that's been fixed  the map, the map will have to get done shortly).

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 2017/02/04 at 5:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

@Werthead & @Free Northman Reborn:

We should keep in mind that the Manderlys seem to have been one of the most powerful houses in the Reach with a longstanding chivalric tradition (the whole Order of the Green Hand thing). They seemed to have continued that tradition in the North. While the other Northern lords certainly also have their share of cavalry it is quite likely that the culture of the Manderlys and their followers - as well as the money they have - allows them to train and feed more knights than their peers.

But we should also keep in mind that White Harbor didn't send all that many men to Robb, explaining why their losses might not have been as severe as they could have been had they sent more.

In regards to the Manderly influence in the east I'd say that Lord Wyman is talking about his informal power here. There is a chaos and a power vacuum in the North with various factions vying for power. A regional power like the Manderlys can exercise much more power in such setting than they would normally do (Roose is clawing his way to the top in the same climate, after all).

But we also should keep in mind that Manderlys seem to be very prestigious and powerful house throughout the entire Realm. Lord Dustin and Lord Manderly were the only Northern lords aside from Lord Ellard Stark attending the Great Council. Lord Manderly was honored with the hand of a Targaryen princess, and the Manderlys played a key role during the Dance and the Regency of Aegon III (and, as I expect, also during many later events in Westerosi history we might learn about in 'Fire and Blood').

The changes in the Reach in regards to the Hightower vassals are especially noteworthy because we have reason to believe that the Beesburys and Costaynes are not exactly weak houses themselves. The houses down there near Oldtown are pretty powerful.

Regarding the Manderly horse, one merely needs to point out that up to 3400 of Robb's 12000 men gathered at Winterfell were mounted lances (heavy horse, in other words).  A ratio of about 2.5 infantry to every 1 heavy cavalry. That's a high ratio anywhere in Westeros. Even in the Reach. And that excluded the Manderlys. So it seems the North has a pretty high cavalry ratio in general. It would make sense, given the advantage that cavalry would provide in a vast land like the North.

 

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Regarding the Manderly horse, one merely needs to point out that up to 3400 of Robb's 12000 men gathered at Winterfell were mounted lances (heavy horse, in other words).  A ratio of about 2.5 infantry to every 1 heavy cavalry. That's a high ratio anywhere in Westeros. Even in the Reach. And that excluded the Manderlys. So it seems the North has a pretty high cavalry ratio in general. It would make sense, given the advantage that cavalry would provide in a vast land like the North.

Well, it is far from clear that all the mounted lances are heavy horse in the sense of armored knights. Just because you have a horse and a lance doesn't mean you also have a great war horse and suitable armor for yourself and the animal. There are freeriders among the Northern army and those are not necessarily in the same league skill-wise or equipment-wise as the armored knights of the Manderlys (and other houses with a longstanding chivalric tradition) or the Northern equivalents of household knights (which all the houses should have).

And when we talk about the qualities of the horses then most of the Northern lords should have particularly good war horses because they can't cope with the climate up there. If the horses of Stannis' knights can't live through an autumn storm then such animals simply don't live up there. The North has a different breed of horse, those smaller garrons the clansmen and the Night's Watch use, and those can't compare to the fine breeds of the Reach and the West.

If the climate in the Manderly lands is somewhat better (and there is a good chance that this is the case) then there might still be some big chargers and the like to be had in those regions but it wouldn't be the king of thing the average mounted Northman could afford. Such animals would have to be kept warm and well-fed in winter, and presumably there are not enough resources up there.

The Starks should be able to afford such animals, and if the climate is good in the Rills then the Ryswells would also have such horses, but not many of the other houses should be able to afford animals of that sort. Certainly not those living in regions farther north than Winterfell.

[Free Northman Reborn]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is far from clear that all the mounted lances are heavy horse in the sense of armored knights. Just because you have a horse and a lance doesn't mean you also have a great war horse and suitable armor for yourself and the animal. There are freeriders among the Northern army and those are not necessarily in the same league skill-wise or equipment-wise as the armored knights of the Manderlys (and other houses with a longstanding chivalric tradition) or the Northern equivalents of household knights (which all the houses should have).

And when we talk about the qualities of the horses then most of the Northern lords should have particularly good war horses because they can't cope with the climate up there. If the horses of Stannis' knights can't live through an autumn storm then such animals simply don't live up there. The North has a different breed of horse, those smaller garrons the clansmen and the Night's Watch use, and those can't compare to the fine breeds of the Reach and the West.

If the climate in the Manderly lands is somewhat better (and there is a good chance that this is the case) then there might still be some big chargers and the like to be had in those regions but it wouldn't be the king of thing the average mounted Northman could afford. Such animals would have to be kept warm and well-fed in winter, and presumably there are not enough resources up there.

The Starks should be able to afford such animals, and if the climate is good in the Rills then the Ryswells would also have such horses, but not many of the other houses should be able to afford animals of that sort. Certainly not those living in regions farther north than Winterfell.

Well, a good thing then that our source in this case, (Maester Luwin no less) was specifically equating them to southron knights. In fact, the entire point of his explanation was to educate Bran on how the only difference between northern mounted lances and southron knights was whether the man in question served the Seven or not. Here is the quote, for your reference:

"How many is it now?" Bran asked Maester Luwin as Lord Karstark and his sons rode in through the gates in the outer wall.

"Twelve thousand men, or near enough as makes no matter."

"How many knights?"

"Few enough,," the maester said with a touch of impatience. "To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights...but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

"Still", said Bran, "how many knights?"

Maester Luwin sighed. "Three hundred, perhaps four...among three thousand armored lances who are not knights."

It is quite clear that in Maester Luwin's mind, the three thousand armored lances who are not knights, are the exact equivalent of a southron knight, except for not worshipping the Seven.

So the post above is refuted by Maester Luwin himself.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, a good thing then that our source in this case, (Maester Luwin no less) was specifically equating them to southron knights. In fact, the entire point of his explanation was to educate Bran on how the only difference between northern mounted lances and southron knights was whether the man in question served the Seven or not. Here is the quote, for your reference:

"How many is it now?" Bran asked Maester Luwin as Lord Karstark and his sons rode in through the gates in the outer wall.

"Twelve thousand men, or near enough as makes no matter."

"How many knights?"

"Few enough,," the maester said with a touch of impatience. "To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights...but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

"Still", said Bran, "how many knights?"

Maester Luwin sighed. "Three hundred, perhaps four...among three thousand armored lances who are not knights."

It is quite clear that in Maester Luwin's mind, the three thousand armored lances who are not knights, are the exact equivalent of a southron knight, except for not worshipping the Seven.

So the post above is refuted by Maester Luwin himself.

 

I know that quote. I'd read it as inclusive, meaning that there are 3,000 armored lances and 300-400 among them are knights.

But that aside, this ratio just isn't very realistic in a medieval setting. It hurts the plausibility of the overall setting if you use it to generalize the numbers. The North is among the poorest regions and is not exactly known for its great horses or chivalric culture. That's the Reach. It should have a better ratio. But it doesn't. Renly has about 20,000 horse (certainly not all of them knights) at Bitterbridge in a host 80,000 strong.

The Gardeners and Lannisters had 5,000 armored knights and 600 lords on the Field of Fire in army that was 55,000 strong. Even if we assume that not all horse were among those 5,600 men that would be a pretty bad ratio for the richest kings in the Seven Kingdoms.

You have to keep in mind that Luwin is a Northman himself, and perhaps actual somewhat of a local patriot. He wants to teach Eddard Stark's son that the ways of his people aren't inferior to those of the Southerners but whether that's actually the case isn't clear.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I know that quote. I'd read it as inclusive, meaning that there are 3,000 armored lances and 300-400 among them are knights.

But that aside, this ratio just isn't very realistic in a medieval setting. It hurts the plausibility of the overall setting if you use it to generalize the numbers. The North is among the poorest regions and is not exactly known for its great horses or chivalric culture. That's the Reach. It should have a better ratio. But it doesn't. Renly has about 20,000 horse (certainly not all of them knights) at Bitterbridge in a host 80,000 strong.

The Gardeners and Lannisters had 5,000 armored knights and 600 lords on the Field of Fire in army that was 55,000 strong. Even if we assume that not all horse were among those 5,600 men that would be a pretty bad ratio for the richest kings in the Seven Kingdoms.

You have to keep in mind that Luwin is a Northman himself, and perhaps actual somewhat of a local patriot. He wants to teach Eddard Stark's son that the ways of his people aren't inferior to those of the Southerners but whether that's actually the case isn't clear.

It can be interpreted as either inclusive or not, it makes little difference. Even if you go with the minimalist intepretation, that still gives Robb's force at Winterfell 3000 knight equivalents out of 12000 men. A ratio of 3-1, then, as opposed to the 2.5-1 if it is 3400. I am open to either intepretation.

What will not stand up to scrutiny, is an attempt to dismiss Maester's Luwin by painting him as an unreliable source on this issue. That is simply a desperate attempt to ignore the facts in favour of a desired point of view. I take issue with the repeated recourse to the issue of chivalry. Chivalry is a code of honor and behavior. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage in terms of horsemanship, or cavalry ratios. As Luwin so clearly pointed out in the quoted text. A knight bound by the code of chivalry in the Ice and Fire world, has been anointed in a sept. A northern mounted lancer has not. That is the only difference.

As to the nature of the northern cavalry. Luwin doesn't simply call them cavalry, or even mounted lances. He calls them armored lances. And then proceeds to equate them to southron knights in every respect except for their religion. This is clearly heavy horse. Not just mounted swordsmen. Not light cavalry, or mounted scouts or the like. The equivalent of knights in armor, with lances, swords and shields. The battle tanks of medieval warfare.

If you dispute this, then one might as well dispute any fact presented by the most knowledgeable possible source, in any Westerosi setting, when one does not like the conclusion reached.

As to the North's overall infantry-cavalry ratio. It has been provided as 4-1 by previous sources - most notably the RPG numbers from 2005 which Martin roughly endorsed. As for how the North then managed to raise between 3000 and 3400 heavy horse out of 12000 men gathered at Winterfell - well, it is quite clear.  We are told that Robb was not able to gather the full strength of the North, due ot the haste and timing (during harvest) of his call to arms.

And because the "professional soldiers" in the North were the fastest to be gathered to respond to Robb's call, his force at Winterfell therefore disproportionately consisted of his lords' "knights", while much of their infantry was left behind. Meaning that the 12000 would in fact have been 20,000 if all their infantry had been gathered, with the armored lances increasing to maybe 4000 (which would already be reached and exceeded by the way if you just added the 600 Dreadfort cavalry, and the additional Karstark and Cerwyn lances that are mentioned later in the series).

So, if we rightly insist that the North must have a cavalry ratio of no better than say 1-4, and if the Northern half of the North can raise at least 4000 cavalry (heavy cavalry, mind you, which would imply that total cavalry might be much higher than that), then the only conclusion is that the Northern half of the North can raise 16,000 infantry in addition to the 4000 cavalry, to maintain a 1-4 ratio.

Meaning the 12,000 that gathered at Winterfell were the advance forces of what would have been 20,000 men, if more time had been available, which would have given a more reasonable 4-1 infantry-cavalry ratio. And this would exclude Skagos, and probably the Mountain Clans too, as they own no heavy cavalry at all, riding only mountain garrons.

So between the Starks, Karstarks, Boltons, Umbers, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Glovers and Hornwoods, there are 8000 more soldiers in addition to those that went South with Robb. Of these 8000, at least 1000 are heavy cavalry (600 already shown as the Dreadfort's veteran garrison), and the rest are infantry. And this excludes any Skagosi warriors.

This makes it all fit together perfectly. And when it comes to the Manderlys, which started this conversation, they have more heavy cavalry NOW, than House Bolton had in total. Which means more than 1100 heavy cavalry now. Which makes the 200 cavalry they sent with Robb a pittance, compared to the totality of their strength.

 

[direpupy]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to keep in mind that Luwin is a Northman himself, and perhaps actual somewhat of a local patriot. He wants to teach Eddard Stark's son that the ways of his people aren't inferior to those of the Southerners but whether that's actually the case isn't clear.

Actually it is never stated where Luwin is from so whe don't know if he is a Northman a Riverlander or perhaps a Valeman, he could be from eny where in the 7 kingdoms.

[Lord Varys]

On 6.2.2017 at 1:56 AM, direpupy said:

Actually it is never stated where Luwin is from so whe don't know if he is a Northman a Riverlander or perhaps a Valeman, he could be from eny where in the 7 kingdoms.

Wasn't there somewhere some hint that Luwin is from the North? I seem to recall something of that sort but can't pin it down.

On 5.2.2017 at 9:51 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

It can be interpreted as either inclusive or not, it makes little difference. Even if you go with the minimalist intepretation, that still gives Robb's force at Winterfell 3000 knight equivalents out of 12000 men. A ratio of 3-1, then, as opposed to the 2.5-1 if it is 3400. I am open to either intepretation.

This isn't the place to discuss that and I never really cared all that much about those military/population numbers thing. It can be interesting to speculate but this question could be easily enough settled by the author himself if he actually commented on all that. The fact that he keeps it vague suggests he doesn't care all that much about it.

Quote

What will not stand up to scrutiny, is an attempt to dismiss Maester's Luwin by painting him as an unreliable source on this issue. That is simply a desperate attempt to ignore the facts in favour of a desired point of view. I take issue with the repeated recourse to the issue of chivalry. Chivalry is a code of honor and behavior. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage in terms of horsemanship, or cavalry ratios. As Luwin so clearly pointed out in the quoted text. A knight bound by the code of chivalry in the Ice and Fire world, has been anointed in a sept. A northern mounted lancer has not. That is the only difference.

But there is also the problem of armor and horses being a very expensive commodities but in the real world middle ages as well as in the Seven Kingdoms (just check what Dunk has to pay for his armor in THK and what he gets for the horse he sells at Ashford).

We know that there is food aplenty in summer down south. Just reread Robert's speech about life in the South from AGoT. Nothing suggests that summer is even nearly as bountiful in the North. We know that winter is hard in the North so the idea that Northmen can produce as many great war horses and chargers as the South makes little sense in light of the fact that such horses would be of no use and nothing but a liability in winter. They need to eat, too, and they need a lot to eat. Stuff the people in the North would need for themselves. And we know that the average charger/war horse dies quickly enough in a Northern autumn storm? How likely is it then that such animal can survive and thrive in the North?

There might be some climate zones (perhaps the Rills and the Manderly lands?) favorable to horse-breeding, and I'm certainly willing to believe that the richer Northern houses (Manderly, Stark, Dustin, Bolton, Karstark, Umber) might have enough resources to afford/maintain a contingent of powerful chargers/war horses, but the overwhelming majority of the Northmen should not. Everybody else should use those small garrons the clansmen have in ADwD. None of them have got any armored chargers.

And we should also assume that whatever chargers/war horses the Northmen have, if they are Northern breeds, are closer related to those hardy garrons the clansmen have, making it likely that they are not as powerful as the chargers from the Reach, the West, the Vale, or the Riverlands. The focus in the breeding would be to make them as strong as they can get while they still retain the ability to somehow live through a northern winter. The garrons most likely seem to be breed of horses than can survive in the wild in the North. The chargers/war horses would not.

Quote

As to the nature of the northern cavalry. Luwin doesn't simply call them cavalry, or even mounted lances. He calls them armored lances. And then proceeds to equate them to southron knights in every respect except for their religion. This is clearly heavy horse. Not just mounted swordsmen. Not light cavalry, or mounted scouts or the like. The equivalent of knights in armor, with lances, swords and shields. The battle tanks of medieval warfare.

But we don't see them described as such, or do we? That's just a guess. Who should all these men be? If we had reason to believe that Winterfell had, say, the equivalent of of 500-1,000 household knights (i.e. men who own and maintain a couple of horses and weapons and fine armor for themselves and their horses, ever ready to ride to war for House Stark) and, say, the equivalent of 200 landed knights sitting on the lands adjacent to Winterfell (who could have sworn swords and even household knights in their service, too) then I could believe such a ratio might make sense.

But the only household knight House Stark seems to have is Ser Rodrik Cassel. There is nobody else. If there had been the story would have turned out very differently in ACoK, I can assure you of that.

Quote

If you dispute this, then one might as well dispute any fact presented by the most knowledgeable possible source, in any Westerosi setting, when one does not like the conclusion reached.

Check out this SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Huntington_Beach_CA

Do we have any good reason to believe that Robb's men at Winterfell were counted accurately? No. Do we have any good reason to believe Luwin counted the horsemen and made proper differences between armored knights/their equivalents and people who just owned a horse? We don't know.

He was talking to a young boy who was scared of the war his elder brother had to fight, and he did not want to frighten him. Not to mention, you know, that you don't have to treat a seven-year-old boy as an adult. And Bran is usually treated as a child both by Luwin and Rodrik.

If you want to do this numbers game you have to look at all of Westeros and what kind of setting makes the most sense. If the North had such a good ratio between horse and foot then pretty much all the other kingdoms should have even better ratios, even Dorne (thanks to their sand steeds). But this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Wasn't there somewhere some hint that Luwin is from the North? I seem to recall something of that sort but can't pin it down.

This isn't the place to discuss that and I never really cared all that much about those military/population numbers thing. It can be interesting to speculate but this question could be easily enough settled by the author himself if he actually commented on all that. The fact that he keeps it vague suggests he doesn't care all that much about it.

But there is also the problem of armor and horses being a very expensive commodities but in the real world middle ages as well as in the Seven Kingdoms (just check what Dunk has to pay for his armor in THK and what he gets for the horse he sells at Ashford).

We know that there is food aplenty in summer down south. Just reread Robert's speech about life in the South from AGoT. Nothing suggests that summer is even nearly as bountiful in the North. We know that winter is hard in the North so the idea that Northmen can produce as many great war horses and chargers as the South makes little sense in light of the fact that such horses would be of no use and nothing but a liability in winter. They need to eat, too, and they need a lot to eat. Stuff the people in the North would need for themselves. And we know that the average charger/war horse dies quickly enough in a Northern autumn storm? How likely is it then that such animal can survive and thrive in the North?

There might be some climate zones (perhaps the Rills and the Manderly lands?) favorable to horse-breeding, and I'm certainly willing to believe that the richer Northern houses (Manderly, Stark, Dustin, Bolton, Karstark, Umber) might have enough resources to afford/maintain a contingent of powerful chargers/war horses, but the overwhelming majority of the Northmen should not. Everybody else should use those small garrons the clansmen have in ADwD. None of them have got any armored chargers.

And we should also assume that whatever chargers/war horses the Northmen have, if they are Northern breeds, are closer related to those hardy garrons the clansmen have, making it likely that they are not as powerful as the chargers from the Reach, the West, the Vale, or the Riverlands. The focus in the breeding would be to make them as strong as they can get while they still retain the ability to somehow live through a northern winter. The garrons most likely seem to be breed of horses than can survive in the wild in the North. The chargers/war horses would not.

But we don't see them described as such, or do we? That's just a guess. Who should all these men be? If we had reason to believe that Winterfell had, say, the equivalent of of 500-1,000 household knights (i.e. men who own and maintain a couple of horses and weapons and fine armor for themselves and their horses, ever ready to ride to war for House Stark) and, say, the equivalent of 200 landed knights sitting on the lands adjacent to Winterfell (who could have sworn swords and even household knights in their service, too) then I could believe such a ratio might make sense.

But the only household knight House Stark seems to have is Ser Rodrik Cassel. There is nobody else. If there had been the story would have turned out very differently in ACoK, I can assure you of that.

Check out this SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Huntington_Beach_CA

Do we have any good reason to believe that Robb's men at Winterfell were counted accurately? No. Do we have any good reason to believe Luwin counted the horsemen and made proper differences between armored knights/their equivalents and people who just owned a horse? We don't know.

He was talking to a young boy who was scared of the war his elder brother had to fight, and he did not want to frighten him. Not to mention, you know, that you don't have to treat a seven-year-old boy as an adult. And Bran is usually treated as a child both by Luwin and Rodrik.

If you want to do this numbers game you have to look at all of Westeros and what kind of setting makes the most sense. If the North had such a good ratio between horse and foot then pretty much all the other kingdoms should have even better ratios, even Dorne (thanks to their sand steeds). But this doesn't seem to be the case.

Unsuccessful attempt to change the facts presented to us. And based on logic that collapses when probed a little deeper.  As requested, taking it to a seperate thread, in the General section.

[direpupy]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Wasn't there somewhere some hint that Luwin is from the North? I seem to recall something of that sort but can't pin it down.

No there was a tread where they confused him with septon Chayle who is from the north, but Luwin himself is a complete unknow apart from the fact that because he assisted at the birth of al of Catelyns children, he must have served at Riverrun before coming to Winterfell since Robb was born in Riverrun.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, direpupy said:

No there was a tread where they confused him with septon Chayle who is from the north, but Luwin himself is a complete unknow apart from the fact that because he assisted at the birth of al of Catelyns children, he must have served at Riverrun before coming to Winterfell since Robb was born in Riverrun.

Hm. Could that perhaps indicate that Maester Walys was burned alongside Rickard/Brandon and their companions? Considering the man helped to arrange the Catelyn-Brandon match one would assume he intended to attend their wedding. And we know Rickard and Brandon were on the way to the wedding when they got in trouble.

Luwin could have been assigned to Winterfell after the war with Ned sending him to Riverrun to attend his pregnant wife. If we want to insist that Cat's claim has to be true and did not refer merely to all her children born at Winterfell. She wanted to make a point there (that Luwin has seen her naked more than once) not make a true statement.

[direpupy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Hm. Could that perhaps indicate that Maester Walys was burned alongside Rickard/Brandon and their companions? Considering the man helped to arrange the Catelyn-Brandon match one would assume he intended to attend their wedding. And we know Rickard and Brandon were on the way to the wedding when they got in trouble.

Luwin could have been assigned to Winterfell after the war with Ned sending him to Riverrun to attend his pregnant wife. If we want to insist that Cat's claim has to be true and did not refer merely to all her children born at Winterfell. She wanted to make a point there (that Luwin has seen her naked more than once) not make a true statement.

That was indeed the counteragument to Luwin having served in Riverrun, but assuming she really meant all her children then he could not have been send by Ned after the war, Robb was born while Ned was still fighting in the South.

Maester Walys and what happend to him is interesting, it does seem he did not survive the war since he was replaced by Luwin.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

That was indeed the counteragument to Luwin having served in Riverrun, but assuming she really meant all her children then he could not have been send by Ned after the war, Robb was born while Ned was still fighting in the South.

That is clearly wrong, at least insofar as the actual war in Westeros time line is concerned. The war effectively ended with the Sack, and the Sack was not nine months after Ned took his leave from Catelyn. That is one of the inconsistencies in AGoT. The book gives the impression the double wedding was at the beginning of the war when in fact it was in the second half, pretty close to the Trident.

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Maester Walys and what happend to him is interesting, it does seem he did not survive the war since he was replaced by Luwin.

Well, he could just have died but if Luwin actually were at Riverrun then the whole thing could have been part of his replacement. It is of course also possible that Walys died during Rickard's time at Winterfell and Luwin merely accompanied Ned to war and then remained at Riverrun with Catelyn.

[direpupy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is clearly wrong, at least insofar as the actual war in Westeros time line is concerned. The war effectively ended with the Sack, and the Sack was not nine months after Ned took his leave from Catelyn. That is one of the inconsistencies in AGoT. The book gives the impression the double wedding was at the beginning of the war when in fact it was in the second half, pretty close to the Trident.

Well, he could just have died but if Luwin actually were at Riverrun then the whole thing could have been part of his replacement. It is of course also possible that Walys died during Rickard's time at Winterfell and Luwin merely accompanied Ned to war and then remained at Riverrun with Catelyn.

Cat actually states in the books that Robb whas born before Ned returns from the fighting in the south, so it is not wrong.

As to Luwin, thats certainly a possibility that he came south with Ned and Ned then left him at Riverrun with his new wife.

[direpupy]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Found the quote for you: Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Found the quote for you: Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

I know that quote. But it is still very difficult to reconcile with everything else we know about the war.

[direpupy]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

I know that quote. But it is still very difficult to reconcile with everything else we know about the war.

Sure but that does not mean whe can discount this, but i do agree that Robb whas born after the sack its just that Ned whent deeper south after that. First to Storms End, then the Tower of Joy and then to Starfall so Robb being born before Ned returns from the "fighting" in the south is not that implausible. You just have to take the term Warred with a grain of salt in this quote, he was in the south but as fighting goes apart from the Tower of Joy there probably was not any to be had after the sack.