The Mountain vs. The Viper & the Hammer of the Waters (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire 4)

[LmL]

There's a bit of talk about both Victarion or Euron marrying Asha, so I wonder if competing over a woman was part of it. The Baratheons don't have that, except that Renly tries to turn Robert on to Margarey, but eventually weds her himself. I dunno, I see a lot more "one King / two wives" that I do two dudes fighting over a woman. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@LmL

Thank you for tagging me. It was an interesting read. Sorry it took me so long to reply. Your essays are long, and I had little time But I've read/listened to the first and fourth of your essays, and written down some notes that I thought I could post here (perhaps every now and then in a random order). Since I have not yet read your second and third essay, I apologize in advance if what I ask/mention is already covered in those.

 

• I'm not quite following as to why Oberyn's shield can be seen as symbolizing a second moon? Perhaps you can clarify?
• You speak of the fact that Tywin has three "dogs" (Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat), but what about the Usurpers dogs? At first, Daenerys only identifies two (Stark and Lannister), but we get this:

They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous.

She identifies Eddard, Tywin and Jaime. That's three "dogs" for the Usurper. (Why she doesn't meantion Jon Arryn I don't know.)

• You also speak of Tyrion being Aerys's second son, if he's indeed Aerys's bastard, but what about Daeron (born in 269 AC) and Aegon (born in 272 AC)?
• You also mention Queen Rhaenys, and her dragon Meraxes tumbling from the sky:

A dragon princess tumbling from the sky along with a dragon – there’s our falling moon maiden symbolism.

And the parallel to young Princess Rhaenys, who was killed by Gregor (don't forget her "dragon", Balerion). But what about the Queen Who Never Was, another Rhaenys, and the dragon with whom she fell out of the sky?

The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper. And on her back, in steel and copper armor that flashed in the sun, rode Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was.

I bolded what might apply to your essays. A red dragon falling from the sky, and armor flashing in the sun.

Perhaps as opposed to the silver-coloured Meraxes, Meleys was red of colour? Just thinking out loud here.

 

Some further thoughts:

• The Sarnori descent from a hero of legend who sounds similar to Azor Ahai: Huzhor Amai. Huzhor was married to three women at the same time. Whether that means anything further...?
• In addition to all the red and bloody hands that you mentioned, I recalled two that I didn't hear:
  • The House of the Red Hands in Braavos, a house of healers
  • One from a TWOW sample chapter:

 

The "Bloody Hand", the play being performed by the mummers in Mercy, referencing Tyrion, the 'Bloody Hand' of Westeros

 

• Is there, you think, any significance of the sweetwater river in Braavos ending in the Moon Pool?
• I've heard nothing yet about the comet seen above King's Landing during the night of Aegon's conception? Where does that one fit in?

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

@LmL

Thank you for tagging me. It was an interesting read. Sorry it took me so long to reply. Your essays are long, and I had little time But I've read/listened to the first and fourth of your essays, and written down some notes that I thought I could post here (perhaps every now and then in a random order). Since I have not yet read your second and third essay, I apologize in advance if what I ask/mention is already covered in those.

Hey RT, glad you dropped by! 

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

• I'm not quite following as to why Oberyn's shield can be seen as symbolizing a second moon? Perhaps you can clarify?

That's probably the one question which is answered in the 2 pods you haven't heard... the short answer is that bloodstone is also called heliotrope, and heliotrope literally means "sun, to turn," and there's a device which uses mirrors to focus refracted sunlight which is called a heliotrope. The whole thing about the moon is that it drinks the fire of the sun, whether absorbing it or reflecting it. There's Greek myth of a goddess named Klyrtie, she pined away for the sun god helios everyday, and turned into the flower called heliotrope, which is actually named because its flowers turnt to rack the sun during the day. One of those heliotrope plants is called a valerian, which has purple flowers.

Essentially, all the Valyrian / Amethyst Empress / Bloodstone Emperor ideas come from the same body of ideas, and that would be bloodstone and heliotrope. That's what the 2nd and 3rd podcasts are about, amongst other things like the true nature of AA and Lightbringer.

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

• You speak of the fact that Tywin has three "dogs" (Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat), but what about the Usurpers dogs? At first, Daenerys only identifies two (Stark and Lannister), but we get this:

They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous.

She identifies Eddard, Tywin and Jaime. That's three "dogs" for the Usurper. (Why she doesn't meantion Jon Arryn I don't know.)

Yes, Robert's symbolism is complicated, but when he takes the throne he is most likely a solar figure, and he has three dogs. Nice catch. 

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

• You also speak of Tyrion being Aerys's second son, if he's indeed Aerys's bastard, but what about Daeron (born in 269 AC) and Aegon (born in 272 AC)?

Who and who? I guess i was ignorant on that one. That's why we have you! Were those stillbirths or what? Not sure if those count. The show doesn't count Cersei's stillbirth as a child in regards to the Valonqar prophecy. Thanks for the correction though.

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

• You also mention Queen Rhaenys, and her dragon Meraxes tumbling from the sky:

A dragon princess tumbling from the sky along with a dragon – there’s our falling moon maiden symbolism.

And the parallel to young Princess Rhaenys, who was killed by Gregor (don't forget her "dragon", Balerion). But what about the Queen Who Never Was, another Rhaenys, and the dragon with whom she fell out of the sky?

The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper. And on her back, in steel and copper armor that flashed in the sun, rode Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was.

I bolded what might apply to your essays. A red dragon falling from the sky, and armor flashing in the sun.

Perhaps as opposed to the silver-coloured Meraxes, Meleys was red of colour? Just thinking out loud here.

Yes, you're right on the money. There's a ton of mythical astronomy in all of those dragon battles in TPATQ - Sunfyre and Moon Dancer is a great one - and a presumably red dragon called the red queen is surely a red comet or red fire moon symbol, just as Mel is a fire moon / mother of dragons moon symbol. What I man seeing is this, according to the two-moon scenario: an ice moon and a fire moon, with the fire moon destroyed to birth dragons and the ice moon still up in the sky giving the Others bad dreams and bad intent. Both mons are associated with silver, the classic moonlight color, but the ice moon is also associated with blue and white, and the fire moon red... and black. Balck because it was corrupted, and white for the ice moon because it shines. The Others are white shadows, accordingly, and the shadowbaby children of AA figure Stannis and fire moon figure Mel are black shadows. Something like that. Meraxes was silver and gold, while vhaegar was a "hoary old bitch," meaning white or snowy. Aegon would the sun king, and Rhaenys his fire moon bride - silver for the moon and gold to imply fire, and the hill of Rhaenys has the dragonpit - a burnt out home of dragons. Visenya's hill has the white marble sept of Baelor, and the warriors sons, whose crystal sword on black sigil parallels the Other's crystal swords, and whose mirror armor does the same. You see where I am going with all that. 

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

Some further thoughts:

• The Sarnori descent from a hero of legend who sounds similar to Azor Ahai: Huzhor Amai. Huzhor was married to three women at the same time. Whether that means anything further...?

I cannot decide if Huzor Amai the Sarnori conqueror and uniter is a descendent of the destroyed Great Empire of the Dawn - there is some evidence of this - or if the story is just a clever parallel George created. I tend to lean towards the latter, because there is abundant evidence that survivors of the GEotD fled over the Bones mountains, and Huzhor someone who united several peoples - he was a conqueror. Seems like he might have integrated some knowledge or traditions form the GEotD - like the language which gave us "Azor Ahai," "Asshai," Stygai," "Marahai," "N'Ghai," and"Jogos Nhai," or perhaps the title of "Azor Ahai" which mutated over the centuries. Much latter, the final king of the Sarnori is Mazor Alexi - Mazor / Azor. Huzhor in turn sounds like Hugo or Hukko the Andal, and the Andlas may have originated by the Silver Sea, where Sarnor did. 

In terms of symbolism, the Silver Sea becomes three smaller lakes, one of which is the black lake known as the Womb of the World. One silver thing, to three smaller things - that's the moon, turning into three terrifying heads of the dragon. Huzhor uniting three tribes to his will might indicate he was a man who harnessed the three heads of the dragon? Hard to say. 

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

• In addition to all the red and bloody hands that you mentioned, I recalled two that I didn't hear:
  • The House of the Red Hands in Braavos, a house of healers
  • One from a TWOW sample chapter:

  Hide contents

The "Bloody Hand", the play being performed by the mummers in Mercy, referencing Tyrion, the 'Bloody Hand' of Westeros

I just haven't found a way to work in the red hands in Bravos - they are red and white, not red and black, so they belong in a different group, potentially, and I am not 100% on what that means. It has to do with the weirwoods and Ghost and the white dragon and Bloodraven, and maybe Dawn the sword. Still working on that.

One thing I can say is that the fire moon, before burning, might have been silver and red associated or white and red. Bloodstone is supposed to be a healing stone, but in ASOIAF the moon stones / moon meteors are toxic and poisonous. Red and white might be the before state of the fire moon, healing fire - and now, the opposite. 

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

• Is there, you think, any significance of the sweetwater river in Braavos ending in the Moon Pool?
• I've heard nothing yet about the comet seen above King's Landing during the night of Aegon's conception? Where does that one fit in?

Sweetwater / sweet milk / milk water? It means something, surely. Swordfighters dance on the moon pool, which is pretty interesting. I need to do a whole thing on Bravos to get to the bottom of that, as well as the Titan. 

I'm not too sure about Aegon's comet, except that it tells us Rhaegar thought the bleeding star meant a comet. We tried to figure if the red comet has some discernible orbital cycle, but we couldn't find one. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

That's probably the one question which is answered in the 2 pods you haven't heard...  

I figured there was a chance that was going to happen  Thank you for taking the time to explain it!

 

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Who and who? I guess i was ignorant on that one. That's why we have you! Were those stillbirths or what? Not sure if those count. The show doesn't count Cersei's stillbirth as a child in regards to the Valonqar prophecy. Thanks for the correction though.

Daeron and Aegon were Aerys and Rhaella's second and third sons, who both died young. Essentially, they are two of the three boys who died in infancy (the third being Prince Jaehaerys, born and died in 274 AC). Daeron lived for half a year, while Aegon, born in 272 AC, died in 273 AC.

Cersei didn't have a stillbirth on the show, but a child who died of illness, right? Why that child wasn't included in the prophecy, I don't know, but it's the show, so I'm not really bothered by that.

Doran Martell had two siblings who "failed to live out the year", Olyvar and Mors. The fact that they died this young certainly doesn't make him feel as if they, for lack of a better way to describe it, "don't count". Nor do I think that Daeron and Aegon (and Jaehaerys, but he was born later), can easily be left out of the child count. They were born, and they lived, even though they did not survive infancy.

 

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I just haven't found a way to work in the red hands in Bravos - they are red and white, not red and black, so they belong in a different group, potentially, and I am not 100% on what that means. It has to do with the weirwoods and Ghost and the white dragon and Bloodraven, and maybe Dawn the sword. Still working on that.

One thing I can say is that the fire moon, before burning, might have been silver and red associated or white and red. Bloodstone is supposed to be a healing stone, but in ASOIAF the moon stones / moon meteors are toxic and poisonous. Red and white might be the before state of the fire moon, healing fire - and now, the opposite. 

The House of the Red Hands in Braavos is red and white? Could you provide the quote perhaps?

Perhaps it falls in a different category indeed, but if every other reference to bloody/red/fiery hand fits, it would be a bit odd if this one didn't.

 

Another "fiery hand", literally, was Qarlton Chelsted, the Hand who was burned alive. Perhaps there's something there, too. (and perhaps not).

 

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm not too sure about Aegon's comet, except that it tells us Rhaegar thought the bleeding star meant a comet. We tried to figure if the red comet has some discernible orbital cycle, but we couldn't find one. 

I was wondering whether there was any meaning behind the fact that it has been stated to have been seen from King's Landing. Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone. So did Rhaegar see the comet personally, placing them in KL at the time of Aegon's conception (perhaps in preparation of traveling towards the Tourney at Harrenhal)? Or did someone else see the comet at KL, and tell Rhaegar about it? If it is the latter scenario, does that mean the comet wasn't visible on Dragonstone? And if so, what does that mean?

And why does no one recall the comet of 281 AC when seeing the comet of 299 AC?

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I figured there was a chance that was going to happen  Thank you for taking the time to explain it!

The bloodstone thing goes waaaay deep. Originally it was supposed to be one episode but it  got swole up and had to be split. Basically, bloodstone and heliotrope have a rich set of supposed "properties" and associations which all have something to do with the Long Night phenomena. Eclipses, lightning and thunder, obtaining Starry wisdom, magical warfare, turning the sun's reflection to the color of blood, absorbing the sun's energy, identification with moon goddesses that resurrect the sun god, an association with drawing out snake venom (which has been inverted to create snake meteors which are toxic oily black stones), and more. For each property I was able to find specific instances of Martin using the bloodstone ideas in clearly manifested ways in the middle of Lightbringer forging scenes. By using the properties of bloodstone as a framework, we got a pretty good tour of the Long Night fallout. We also (I believe) got to the bottom of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer's nature, and how Azor Ahai and RLJ go hand in hand. There's an awful lot of Jon Snow and Daenerys as AA reborn talk, and specific mythical astronomy evidence that points to RLJ. I think you will really dig 2 and 3 for these reasons. Episode 2 also does a forensic investigation into the legend of AA, which you would enjoy as well since that's your normal area of expertise.  

You proofread HoW Asshai script, correct? What did you think of the finished episode?

Quote

Daeron and Aegon were Aerys and Rhaella's second and third sons, who both died young. Essentially, they are two of the three boys who died in infancy (the third being Prince Jaehaerys, born and died in 274 AC). Daeron lived for half a year, while Aegon, born in 272 AC, died in 273 AC.

Cersei didn't have a stillbirth on the show, but a child who died of illness, right? Why that child wasn't included in the prophecy, I don't know, but it's the show, so I'm not really bothered by that.

Doran Martell had two siblings who "failed to live out the year", Olyvar and Mors. The fact that they died this young certainly doesn't make him feel as if they, for lack of a better way to describe it, "don't count". Nor do I think that Daeron and Aegon (and Jaehaerys, but he was born later), can easily be left out of the child count. They were born, and they lived, even though they did not survive infancy.

Yes they definitely count. If mama pushed em out then it counts for sure, lol. I just forgot about that. I've heard others call Tyrion a second son - I guess he's Tywin's second. We are talking metaphor here, so maybe Tyrion is the second son of Aerys to grow to adulthood, or maybe it's nothing. I am however pretty sure the second son idea refers to the meteor children of the sun and moon lighting up the sky like a second sun. The Second Sons' broken sword is a pretty big clue. I suppose Oberyn with his broken spear was a second son too, right? 

Quote

 

The House of the Red Hands in Braavos is red and white? Could you provide the quote perhaps?

Here it is:

Quote

Instead he had squandered the last of their silver on a healer from the House of the Red Hands, a tall pale man in robes embroidered with swirling stripes of red and white. All that the silver bought him was half a flask of dreamwine. “This may help gentle his passing,” the Braavosi had said, not unkindly. When Sam asked if there wasn’t any more that he could do, he shook his head. “Ointments I have, potions and infusions, tinctures and venoms and poultices. I might bleed him, purge him, leech him … but why? No leech can make him young again. This is an old man, and death is in his lungs. Give him this and let him sleep.”

 

Quote

Perhaps it falls in a different category indeed, but if every other reference to bloody/red/fiery hand fits, it would be a bit odd if this one didn't.

Well, we do have a few instances of red and white fiery thing. White trees with red hands like bits of flame. Ghost with red eyes like embers or red suns. Not sure if Mel's pale skin counts in a book full of white people, but it's possible. What this may be getting to is the possibility of Dawn lighting up with red fire, making it Lightbringer. You know I see the black sword as the one to shine with red fire, and I think it makes more sense for Dawn to shine with "pale fire," such as we see from the flaming swords help by the gemstone eyed kingly ghosts in Dany's wake the dragon dream, or the pale fire of the white dragon Viserion, or the pale flame which is also called silvery blue in Jaime's weirwood stump dream. I also think Dawn might be the original Ice of House Stark, which means I want to see bluish white fire. Natural comets have blue and white / silver tails, magic moon killing ones are red. So I want very much to see a blue and white fire sword vs a red and black. Dawn burning red upsets the hypothesis a bit. But who knows - maybe Dawn burns pale red, and black sword like Oathleeper burn black and dark red. Black fire of Drogon and Balerion is black shot through with red and bits of gold, just like Oathkeeper's blade is balck and red with a gold pommel. I really think AA's original black sword burned blck and red, and was remembered as red. I also think to get a red fire sword, it takes blood magic, a la the AA story and "all Valyrian magic was rooted in blood and fire." If Dawn is to burn red it needs blood sacrifice, and then it wouldn't be a white sword, right? I dunno. I do think Dawn played a role last time - I see the black sword of AA and white Dawn as both being LB swords, yin and yang versions. I'm not sure how it all shakes out but red and white things might indicate Dawn burning red. 

Think about the weirwood - it's a screaming white tree with bloody and flaming hands. The Storm God's thunderbolt (moon meteor) set fire to a tree, and his allowed the Grey King to posses the fire of the gods - divine knowledge or power.   The clue here is that the moon meteors transformed either the weiwoods or greenseers - burning trees might symbolize greenseers transformed by fire, a la Mel's transformation process. What did the meteors enable? Did they awaken the trees? Greensight is very much the fire of the gods, the powers of a god. Was the earth itself changed when it absorbed the poisonous meteor stone? Sometimes I think of the oily black stone which is either meteorite ore, or stone burnt by meteor impacts, as an alien presence infecting the earth. It's not supposed to be here - Lovecraft stories are full of toxic alien meteors which channel strange spirit beings who body snatch and drive people insane. Perhaps the weirwoods are screaming and bloody because they are a reaction to this poison? 

My best guess is that the meteors transforming the tree idea refers to greenseers using the black moon meteor magic to transform themselves into fire people, the opposite of Others. Mel is becoming a fire person - doesn't need to eat or sleep, fire provides her nourishment). I suspect ancient shadowbinders and Asshai'i people did the same. Azor Ahai, IMO, was a transformed greenseer. That's the point of all the side by side appearances of greenseer magic and fire magic or blood of the dragon people. More of that talk in ep. 2 and 3. 

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Another "fiery hand", literally, was Qarlton Chelsted, the Hand who was burned alive. Perhaps there's something there, too. (and perhaps not).

Interesting that his sigil is green, and then he was burned by green fire. He actually refused to set of the wildfire caches and was killed for it - if he's a Nissa Nissa moon figure, it points toward NN being an unwilling sacrifice, which has been my claim all along. Burning the green and white hand may symbolize more burning greenseers, or just the idea of killing green things and life in general that resulted from the LN disaster. I think of the green hand on white banner of Garth and House Garndener, burnt out by the dragons on the field of fire. 

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I was wondering whether there was any meaning behind the fact that it has been stated to have been seen from King's Landing. Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone. So did Rhaegar see the comet personally, placing them in KL at the time of Aegon's conception (perhaps in preparation of traveling towards the Tourney at Harrenhal)? Or did someone else see the comet at KL, and tell Rhaegar about it? If it is the latter scenario, does that mean the comet wasn't visible on Dragonstone? And if so, what does that mean?

And why does no one recall the comet of 281 AC when seeing the comet of 299 AC?

I think the fact nobody brings up Aegon's comet in ACOK when everyone in Westeros can see the red comet says that the red comet was in fact unique. It was described as being giant, as bright as the moon - it's a YUUUUUGE comet, you know? If the comet 20 years prior had been the same huge red comet, someone would have noticed. Ergo, the red comet is special and unique and it was not here 20 years ago. It might only come near earth every several thousand years, who knows. I was really hoping to find a pattern, where the comet comes every 17 years and here's always a war or something, but I couldn't find it. 

You should be able to see the same comet from KL as you would Dragonstone, even if it wasn't as bright as the red comet. So I don't think that's a sneaky clue about anyone's whereabouts. 

Thansk for commenting RT! 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 15-5-2016 at 7:29 PM, LmL said:

The bloodstone thing goes waaaay deep. Originally it was supposed to be one episode but it  got swole up and had to be split. Basically, bloodstone and heliotrope have a rich set of supposed "properties" and associations which all have something to do with the Long Night phenomena. Eclipses, lightning and thunder, obtaining Starry wisdom, magical warfare, turning the sun's reflection to the color of blood, absorbing the sun's energy, identification with moon goddesses that resurrect the sun god, an association with drawing out snake venom (which has been inverted to create snake meteors which are toxic oily black stones), and more. For each property I was able to find specific instances of Martin using the bloodstone ideas in clearly manifested ways in the middle of Lightbringer forging scenes. By using the properties of bloodstone as a framework, we got a pretty good tour of the Long Night fallout. We also (I believe) got to the bottom of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer's nature, and how Azor Ahai and RLJ go hand in hand. There's an awful lot of Jon Snow and Daenerys as AA reborn talk, and specific mythical astronomy evidence that points to RLJ. I think you will really dig 2 and 3 for these reasons. Episode 2 also does a forensic investigation into the legend of AA, which you would enjoy as well since that's your normal area of expertise.  

I'll have to go and read the 2nd and 3rd essays then  

On 15-5-2016 at 7:29 PM, LmL said:

You proofread HoW Asshai script, correct? What did you think of the finished episode?

I didn't proofread the Asshai episode. I did listen to the finished episode. It was a very good one!  And one with a lot of puns

 

On 15-5-2016 at 7:29 PM, LmL said:

Here it is:

Thanks! 

Interesting that his sigil is green, and then he was burned by green fire. He actually refused to set of the wildfire caches and was killed for it - if he's a Nissa Nissa moon figure, it points toward NN being an unwilling sacrifice, which has been my claim all along. Burning the green and white hand may symbolize more burning greenseers, or just the idea of killing green things and life in general that resulted from the LN disaster. I think of the green hand on white banner of Garth and House Garndener, burnt out by the dragons on the field of fire. 

Interesting. I hadn't considered the sigil of House Gardener before.

 

On 15-5-2016 at 7:29 PM, LmL said:

I think the fact nobody brings up Aegon's comet in ACOK when everyone in Westeros can see the red comet says that the red comet was in fact unique. It was described as being giant, as bright as the moon - it's a YUUUUUGE comet, you know? If the comet 20 years prior had been the same huge red comet, someone would have noticed. Ergo, the red comet is special and unique and it was not here 20 years ago. It might only come near earth every several thousand years, who knows. I was really hoping to find a pattern, where the comet comes every 17 years and here's always a war or something, but I couldn't find it. 

Hmm... Perhaps it's like the great storms at Storm's End that "are said" to occur every 77 years, but instead occur apparently random.

It is said that, every seventy-seven years, a storm greater than all others comes howling down upon Storm's End, as the old gods of sea and sky try once more to blow Durran's seat into the sea. It is a pretty tale...but a tale is all it is. The records of the maesters of Storm's End show that there are fierce storms nearly every year, especially in autumn, and whilst some are greater than others, there are no records that show unusually powerful storms seventy-sevenyears apart. The greatest storm in living memory was in 221 AC, in the last year of the reign of Aerys I, and the greatest before that was the storm of 166 AC, fifty-five years earlier.

 

On 15-5-2016 at 7:29 PM, LmL said:

You should be able to see the same comet from KL as you would Dragonstone, even if it wasn't as bright as the red comet. So I don't think that's a sneaky clue about anyone's whereabouts. 

Ah, but that's my point, actually. Rhaegar and Elia were living on Dragonstone. Logically, they would be expected to see such a comet on Dragonstone, when it appears. Unless they weren't there. It were Rhaegar and Aemon who were communicating, and it is Aemon who says the comet was seen above KL. So I would conclude that Aemon learned about that from Rhaegar himself, and can only wonder as to why Rhaegar would have written KL, unless he had actually been there.

I don't think there's anything sneaky about it. I would sooner think that it is a left-over from the time when GRRM had not yet fleshed out that Rhaegar and his bride were living at Dragonstone during their marriage, instead of King's Landing.

But now that that fact (R & E living on Dragonstone) has been established, I can't help but try and puzzle together why Rhaegar supposedly saw the comet at KL (again, if he is the one who personally saw it, and it wasn't just something reported to him from KL), and a travel to KL for the tourney seems a reasonable possibility. (Another would be the time he spend at court to present Rhaenys, though those two scenario's also could have been combined in one visit, of course...)

I am getting off topic...

[LmL]

On May 17, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'll have to go and read the 2nd and 3rd essays then  

I didn't proofread the Asshai episode. I did listen to the finished episode. It was a very good one!  And one with a lot of puns

Sweet! Glad you liked it! I had a lot of fun doing that one, Aziz and I pounded that script pretty hard. It's gotten a lot of views, people seem to like it. :)

On May 17, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Thanks! 

Interesting. I hadn't considered the sigil of House Gardener before.

I've been thinking a lot about anything related to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. I think several scattered ideas and figures are rurally talking about one underlying truth behind the green men: Garth the Green, Durran Godsgrief & the antler-helmed person in general, the "Horned Lord," the order of the Green Hand, House Gardener, Highgarden, greenseers, the Hammer of the Waters and the Isle of Faces, and so on. Even the weird story in TWOIAF about the Old Ones from Leng with their underground cities pertains to this same idea, I think. I have a series of essay socking on these ideas... but the point is, I think the Isle of Faces is hiding something major which has to do with the ancient First men, the greenseers, the Others, the Wall - all the good stuff. 

On May 17, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Hmm... Perhaps it's like the great storms at Storm's End that "are said" to occur every 77 years, but instead occur apparently random.

It is said that, every seventy-seven years, a storm greater than all others comes howling down upon Storm's End, as the old gods of sea and sky try once more to blow Durran's seat into the sea. It is a pretty tale...but a tale is all it is. The records of the maesters of Storm's End show that there are fierce storms nearly every year, especially in autumn, and whilst some are greater than others, there are no records that show unusually powerful storms seventy-sevenyears apart. The greatest storm in living memory was in 221 AC, in the last year of the reign of Aerys I, and the greatest before that was the storm of 166 AC, fifty-five years earlier.

Yep, Martin likes to polk fun at folktales, even though he really takes them quite seriously. There are several facets the phenomena of religion and mythology - there's the deep underlying esoteric truth most have forgotten; the rigid, dogmatic types who turn any religion into a law book and a hierarchy; there's the occasional tension between "science" and religion; there's a lot of foolishness, cults, and the like; there are "atheist" types who believe in none of it and scorn the foolish and the believers alike; and of course there's the mythical astronomy aspect which I think Martin has spent a great deal of time and artistry creating - and Martin likes to hit all these angles. A seventy seven year storm could be some el nino thing or whatever, but it seems Martin is just suing this to show a wive's tale that isn't true. 

On May 17, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ah, but that's my point, actually. Rhaegar and Elia were living on Dragonstone. Logically, they would be expected to see such a comet on Dragonstone, when it appears. Unless they weren't there. It were Rhaegar and Aemon who were communicating, and it is Aemon who says the comet was seen above KL. So I would conclude that Aemon learned about that from Rhaegar himself, and can only wonder as to why Rhaegar would have written KL, unless he had actually been there.

I don't think there's anything sneaky about it. I would sooner think that it is a left-over from the time when GRRM had not yet fleshed out that Rhaegar and his bride were living at Dragonstone during their marriage, instead of King's Landing.

But now that that fact (R & E living on Dragonstone) has been established, I can't help but try and puzzle together why Rhaegar supposedly saw the comet at KL (again, if he is the one who personally saw it, and it wasn't just something reported to him from KL), and a travel to KL for the tourney seems a reasonable possibility. (Another would be the time he spend at court to present Rhaenys, though those two scenario's also could have been combined in one visit, of course...)

I am getting off topic...

I tend to think it's a bit of an oversight / inconsistency, most likely, but who knows. Anything even tangentially related to RLJ will be scrutinized until the Rhaegar - Lyanna sex tape is released. 

[Nissa]

I don't have anything inspiring to add to the conversation but I did want to say i have enjoyed listening to your podcasts and eagerly await more. Thanks Lml!

[LmL]

So, how's this one sitting with everyone?

I realize it takes a while to find time to listen to the whole thing. Feel free to comment before you've finished if you like. 

Oh and I am editing the next podcast as we speak, which will be called

"Tyrion Targaryen."

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Nissa said:

I don't have anything inspiring to add to the conversation but I did want to say i have enjoyed listening to your podcasts and eagerly await more. Thanks Lml!

Hilariously, I was just typing my previous post as you were typing this, lol. Glad to hear you liked it, and thanks for letting me know! Let me ask this question, to you and anyone else: what do you think about the possibility that the Hammer of the Waters 1.) was not dropped by children of the forest, and 2.) fell at the time of the Long Night, not thousands of years before? For example, if the cotf didn't intimidate the First Men with that Hammer, how did they force them to sign the Pact?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

So, how's this one sitting with everyone?

I realize it takes a while to find time to listen to the whole thing. Feel free to comment before you've finished if you like. 

Oh and I am editing the next podcast as we speak, which will be called

"Tyrion Targaryen."

Are you going to make an accompanying thread with every podcast you release?

[LmL]

46 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Are you going to make an accompanying thread with every podcast you release?

Yeah I always do.  This is where my writing started and this is where my stuff is most discussed. I like it here... people always complain about stuff but here is where I find the types of people with the needed attention span and interest in symbolism to get excited about the same things I am excited about. Reddit is great for laughs and BSing, but there's an inherent ADD-ness to it. You have to write really short, condensed, simple to understand things for Reddit. And people are hella mean there too sometimes. Overall people on Westeros are very courteous and respectful, in my opinion. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

10 hours ago, LmL said:

So, how's this one sitting with everyone?

I realize it takes a while to find time to listen to the whole thing. Feel free to comment before you've finished if you like. 

Oh and I am editing the next podcast as we speak, which will be called

"Tyrion Targaryen."

Yay!  Looking forward to TT!  I know a lot of people don't like that theory, but I do, so will be good to see what you can add to it.

I am now a few chapters in to book 4 on my latest re-read and I'm so much more conscious of the symbolism & themes you've highlighted in the podcasts.  Really adds a new dimension to it.  Sansa's last chapter in the Eerie in book 3 (which you've mentioned a number of times) is fascinating.

I'm also really interested in the Oldtown prologue in book 4.  We have Alleras with the golden bow and golden arrows fletched in red, shooting apples from the air (one splits in 2, hitting buildings and the other 2 hit the water).  A shaft of sunlight hits the city, triggering a lot of noise from the septs and churches.  Then we have the Stranger-esque alchemist with his death and transformation symbolism.  

[House Cambodia]

Wow, I'm thrilled to come across this thread LmL. I found your website a couple of days ago and poured over "Astronomy explains ..." I'm hooked. I'll carefully read your other essays before catching up with this one and joining in the discussion. Frankly, of all the fan analysis I've read so far, a lot of which is extremely impressive, you stand out as the best.

 

See you soon 

[Nissa]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Hilariously, I was just typing my previous post as you were typing this, lol. Glad to hear you liked it, and thanks for letting me know! Let me ask this question, to you and anyone else: what do you think about the possibility that the Hammer of the Waters 1.) was not dropped by children of the forest, and 2.) fell at the time of the Long Night, not thousands of years before? For example, if the cotf didn't intimidate the First Men with that Hammer, how did they force them to sign the Pact?

I like the idea of the hammer being dropped by the children of the forest for 3 reasons

1. the bad ass magic of the cotf makes the pact more enticing as you previously stated

2. it backs up the idea that the majority of maesters (who say it was a geological explination) are anti-magic 

and 3. I like the idea of a Hammer of the Waters breaking the arm of dorne more because it's just cooler

[LmL]

50 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Wow, I'm thrilled to come across this thread LmL. I found your website a couple of days ago and poured over "Astronomy explains ..." I'm hooked. I'll carefully read your other essays before catching up with this one and joining in the discussion. Frankly, of all the fan analysis I've read so far, a lot of which is extremely impressive, you stand out as the best.

 

See you soon 

Well thanks very much for the high praise! I'm quite enthusiastic about the subject matter, but it's knowing that others are excited about it to keeps me going, so I appreciate you stopping by to say so.

Dont forget you can listen to he podcast versions while you're commuting or doing chores or whatever. Might be easier than carving out time to read.

[LmL]

36 minutes ago, Nissa said:

I like the idea of the hammer being dropped by the children of the forest for 3 reasons

1. the bad ass magic of the cotf makes the pact more enticing as you previously stated

2. it backs up the idea that the majority of maesters (who say it was a geological explination) are anti-magic 

and 3. I like the idea of a Hammer of the Waters breaking the arm of dorne more because it's just cooler

Well the last two are true no matter what - the Hammer broke the Arm, and there was definitely magic involved, and there can be little doubt the maesters are anti-magic, except our favorite Starry Wisdom Church devotee Marwyn the Mage (that's a theory of mine, not canon). 

But I do not think the children of the forest dropped be hammer themselves. It never made sense anyway, for those who sing the song of earth to destroy the earth. Plus, as I mentioned in the essay, why not drop smaller hammers on the ringforts? They could have driven the FM off easily with that power. 

I think the truth is that "greenseers" were involved in dropping the Hammer, but not cotf greenseers. 

How did you like the "Bloodstone Island" in the Stepstones clue?

[Maester of Valyria]

29 minutes ago, LmL said:

Well the last two are true no matter what - the Hammer broke the Arm, and there was definitely magic involved, and there can be little doubt the maesters are anti-magic, except our favorite Starry Wisdom Church devotee Marwyn the Mage (that's a theory of mine, not canon). 

But I do not think the children of the forest dropped be hammer themselves. It never made sense anyway, for those who sing the song of earth to destroy the earth. Plus, as I mentioned in the essay, why not drop smaller hammers on the ringforts? They could have driven the FM off easily with that power. 

I think the truth is that "greenseers" were involved in dropping the Hammer, but not cotf greenseers. 

How did you like the "Bloodstone Island" in the Stepstones clue?

As I mentioned in a recent discussion of the Gods Eye lake (in reply to one of your comments in fact), the Children knew Dorne as 'The Empty Land' and it's a place isolated by mountains with no trees around, I've often thought that the Children would regard the Breaking of the Arm as an acceptable loss, considering that their way of life was terminally threatened.

In addition, the Hammer seems to be the sort of weapon that is inaccurate and clumsy; not really suitable for targeted attacks on ringforts. This issue is compounded by the Hammer only being able to affect coastal locations.

As for the Bloodstone Island thing, in-universe I think it's probably a reference to all the blood that has been spilt on the stony island, although I accept that GRRM may be using it as foreshadowing.

[House Cambodia]

Im sorry, having said I wouldn't, I can't resist asking a couple of question prior to reading the essay 

 

Quote

The biggest prediction I have made is that the red comet will return and cause another moon disaster of some sort to kick off the Long Night. That's pretty major, don't you think? 

1. You maintain that Planetos magic does work to a great extent with the Laws of Nature, so given that the red comet passed by just a few years ago, wouldn't it be incredulous for it to appear so soon? I kind of had it that Drogon will symbolise the comet, with Dany riding on his back.

2. Not connected to this specific essay, but a query about your term "mythical astronomy" - would a better term not be "cosmology", in the older sense of the word, like 'Biblical cosmology', 'Chinese cosmology', 'Babylonian cosmology'? Or do you reserve that strictly for the creation of Planetos, of which I don't think we have any clues. Or better perhaps, "Primeval myths" if you're going to encompass the origins of the COTF?

3. Oh, one more although I'm sure I'll read your explanation in one of your essays: you're saying both Dany AND Jon are Azor Ahai incarnate, at the same time? That seems weird. Have you looked into the possibility that Azor Ahai and TPTWP/The Last Hero are different 'messiahs' that became conflated in ancient times? I'm mulling over the notion that we have a dualistic universe ruled by R'hllor, Lord of Light and The Great Other. R'hllor being effectively the Satanic one with AA his antichrist, and Jon being the Apocalyptic christ-like figure that needs to defeat her, with - subversion of subversions - the aid of the Others (okay, that's my crazy hypothesis which I'd appreciate you deconstructing!).

[Nissa]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Well the last two are true no matter what - the Hammer broke the Arm, and there was definitely magic involved, and there can be little doubt the maesters are anti-magic, except our favorite Starry Wisdom Church devotee Marwyn the Mage (that's a theory of mine, not canon). 

But I do not think the children of the forest dropped be hammer themselves. It never made sense anyway, for those who sing the song of earth to destroy the earth. Plus, as I mentioned in the essay, why not drop smaller hammers on the ringforts? They could have driven the FM off easily with that power. 

I think the truth is that "greenseers" were involved in dropping the Hammer, but not cotf greenseers. 

How did you like the "Bloodstone Island" in the Stepstones clue?

I admittedly am re-listening to the podcast right now. I listen to them while I work so I miss a lot of things including the greenseers theory. My initial thought that could back up the greenseers theory is it seems greenseers could control that kind of magic better. That's a total shot in the dark. It also doesn't seem like something the cotf would want to do by nature unless it was a neccessity since wasn't the pact about the first men not destroying the 'world'. ? Again that's a shot in the dark. I've only recently read the series and I'm on my first re-read. I'll have to get back to you about the Bloodstone Island once I get to that part.

I really enjoy the idea of there being moon and sun characters. I also enjoy the idea of the azzor ahai symbolism moving throughout the series in many facets. I myself subscribe to the idea that there isn't going to be one azzor ahai that will save the world but many symbols of it in the coming war.