(Spoilers) So what's Littlefinger up to?

[Pies are coming]

5 hours ago, Lemore said:

I don't think he properly cared about Cat either, again I think he wanted her and especially because she rejected him and in a major way represented his inadequacies and failures both as a "man" and in his social standing. I think him wanting her and now Sansa as her replacement is more like a trophy to him or some sort of verification that he's finally succeeded, like a replay of his fight for cat with Brandon 

Why would it be in Ramsays best interest not to rape Sansa? They were married so back then it wouldn't really have been considered rape, more his "right" wouldn't it? I still think he knew how bad ramsay was but didn't care because it suited his plans

The wedding night? Sure, he needs to consummate the marriage, although being gentle would really make things easier in the long run. And, in any case, he would be expecting Sansa to cooperate. Afterwards? Locking her in a room, bruising her, showing her the flayed old lady? That makes no sense.

Littlefinger could have though Ramsay, being tutored by Roose, would do what Roose would have done. And Roose would have treated Sansa a lot better.

2 hours ago, ricardoromell said:

I actually think, LF sending the knights of the Vale is a terrible idea. 

Fully armored knights doing battle in snow is a recipe for disaster, plus they are not conditioned to the cold. Though sending them off weakens the Vale and makes it easier to be overrun by an enemy or even scheme a healthy overdose of medication to Robyn and create a power vaccum. 

Scenario 1 : Allowing the Freys to overrun the Vale.

Scenario 2 : Lannisters / Army in  KL to overrun the Vale.

Bolton - Frey - Lannister Alliance without a stable head like Roose Bolton & Tywin would need someone like Baelish to keep it going.

Lastly you have the possibility of Baelish "the titan of Braavos" playing the Braavosi agent, The Vale is closest to Braavos (by sea) and neighbors to the Crownlands. The Crown owes the iron bank of Braavos, the vale with an army at war would be a great time to enter westeros and thereby a base of operations to claim what is owed.         

The knights of the Vale will be as prepared or not for winter conditions as D&D want them to be. And there is no reason to believe they would jump into the North, at winter, expecting to find summer at the Reach.

[Lemore]

3 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

The wedding night? Sure, he needs to consummate the marriage, although being gentle would really make things easier in the long run. And, in any case, he would be expecting Sansa to cooperate. Afterwards? Locking her in a room, bruising her, showing her the flayed old lady? That makes no sense.

Littlefinger could have though Ramsay, being tutored by Roose, would do what Roose would have done. And Roose would have treated Sansa a lot better.

The knights of the Vale will be as prepared or not for winter conditions as D&D want them to be. And there is no reason to believe they would jump into the North, at winter, expecting to find summer at the Reach.

I'm not sure Ramsay has it in him to ever be gentle lol Either way whether LF knew what Ramsay was like or not I think he would still have done the same thing because ultimately the only person he really loves is himself...........in my humble opinion of course 

[Nerevanin]

5 hours ago, Lemore said:

I don't think he properly cared about Cat either, again I think he wanted her and especially because she rejected him and in a major way represented his inadequacies and failures both as a "man" and in his social standing. I think him wanting her and now Sansa as her replacement is more like a trophy to him or some sort of verification that he's finally succeeded, like a replay of his fight for cat with Brandon 

Why would it be in Ramsays best interest not to rape Sansa? They were married so back then it wouldn't really have been considered rape, more his "right" wouldn't it? I still think he knew how bad ramsay was but didn't care because it suited his plans

I don't think that's the case tbh. In the books he almost died as a teen while dueling with Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) for Catelyn's hand. In S1E3 (I think?) the duel is mentioned as well, with LF saying that he has a scar from belly to collarbone because of it. I don't think that he would risk his life in such an insane way (Brandon was like 6 years older than him and a trained swordman) for someone he "didn't properly care about".

Sansa as a throphy is another story. I think there are two reasons why he wants her - she is a key element in his game as a relative of two ancient houses (Stark and Tully) and if he marries her, she is a way how to say a big "F**K YOU" to everyone who ever looked down on him. Everytime he kisses her, it's like a slap in Ned's, Brandon's, Hoster's and possibly Cat's faces.

[Lemore]

1 minute ago, Nerevanin said:

I don't think that's the case tbh. In the books he almost died as a teen while dueling with Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) for Catelyn's hand. In S1E3 (I think?) the duel is mentioned as well, with LF saying that he has a scar from belly to collarbone because of it. I don't think that he would risk his life in such an insane way (Brandon was like 6 years older than him and a trained swordman) for someone he "didn't properly care about".

Sansa as a throphy is another story. I think there are two reasons why he wants her - she is a key element in his game as a relative of two ancient houses (Stark and Tully) and if he marries her, she is a way how to say a big "F**K YOU" to everyone who ever looked down on him. Everytime he kisses her, it's like a slap in Ned's, Brandon's, Hoster's and possibly Cat's faces.

Maybe when he was younger and fighting for cat he cared for her but I don't think he does later on, I think by the time we see present day LF he's hardened to the world

I agree with the rest of your post though

[Nerevanin]

8 minutes ago, Lemore said:

Maybe when he was younger and fighting for cat he cared for her but I don't think he does later on, I think by the time we see present day LF he's hardened to the world

I agree with the rest of your post though

I think that after the duel his relationship to Catelyn became much more complicated. Before, he loved her unconditionally. After, he loved her and saw her as a traitor at the same time. But I personally judge from the scenes in AGOT / S1 - in AGOT when he sees Catelyn after all these years and in the show when he watches Catelyn and Ned hugging in his brothel. That look on his face says everything, imo.

[Lemore]

2 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I think that after the duel his relationship to Catelyn became much more complicated. Before, he loved her unconditionally. After, he loved her and saw her as a traitor at the same time. But I personally judge from the scenes in AGOT / S1 - in AGOT when he sees Catelyn after all these years and in the show when he watches Catelyn and Ned hugging in his brothel. That look on his face says everything, imo.

I'll have to have a rewatch of that scene 

[ricardoromell]

2 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

The wedding night? Sure, he needs to consummate the marriage, although being gentle would really make things easier in the long run. And, in any case, he would be expecting Sansa to cooperate. Afterwards? Locking her in a room, bruising her, showing her the flayed old lady? That makes no sense.

Littlefinger could have though Ramsay, being tutored by Roose, would do what Roose would have done. And Roose would have treated Sansa a lot better.

The knights of the Vale will be as prepared or not for winter conditions as D&D want them to be. And there is no reason to believe they would jump into the North, at winter, expecting to find summer at the Reach.

As a lil bit of a realist, that seems like a terrible move, just like ironborn possibly having massive warships. Slow moving knights plowing through the snow defeating a hardened Northern army, they might as well name the series to "A song of D & D" then.   

 

[TexasDirewolf]

I think people are really over-analyzing the Littefinger "didn't know" thing. It was never indicated that Baelish didn't know anything about Ramsey, simply that he didn't know about what he would do to Sansa. I think Baelish knew that he was marrying off Sansa to an unhinged, brutal and terrible person. But I think he presumed that Ramsey would be like Roose in knowing how to play the game and the importance of the pieces (people) in said game. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Littlefinger assumed Ramsey wouldn't cross that line with Sansa given her importance to the continued reign of the Boltons. 

It's not that he didn't know Ramsey was brutal and relentless. Rather he believed Ramsey to be cut from the same cloth of his father in knowing your limits. Roose wouldn't have done the things to Sansa that Ramsey did. I don't think Baelish was entirely ignorant to who Ramsey was. I just think he had some working knowledge and hedged his bets on what he knew then. He underestimated the brutality and over-confidence of the young Bolton. If anything, it simply serves to prove that Littlefinger is just as flawed as the men he has toppled. 

[Nerevanin]

12 hours ago, TexasDirewolf said:

I think people are really over-analyzing the Littefinger "didn't know" thing. It was never indicated that Baelish didn't know anything about Ramsey, simply that he didn't know about what he would do to Sansa. I think Baelish knew that he was marrying off Sansa to an unhinged, brutal and terrible person. But I think he presumed that Ramsey would be like Roose in knowing how to play the game and the importance of the pieces (people) in said game. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Littlefinger assumed Ramsey wouldn't cross that line with Sansa given her importance to the continued reign of the Boltons. 

It's not that he didn't know Ramsey was brutal and relentless. Rather he believed Ramsey to be cut from the same cloth of his father in knowing your limits. Roose wouldn't have done the things to Sansa that Ramsey did. I don't think Baelish was entirely ignorant to who Ramsey was. I just think he had some working knowledge and hedged his bets on what he knew then. He underestimated the brutality and over-confidence of the young Bolton. If anything, it simply serves to prove that Littlefinger is just as flawed as the men he has toppled. 

The actor who plays LF explicitly said that LF didn't know that Ramsay was a brute and that he is sorry that he let Sansa marry him.

[Hol Horse]

7 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

The actor who plays LF explicitly said that LF didn't know that Ramsay was a brute and that he is sorry that he let Sansa marry him.

Never trust the words of a man who can't keep a consistent accent.

[Nerevanin]

11 hours ago, Cz-99 said:

Never trust the words of a man who can't keep a consistent accent.

If this is how you see it, I suppose that any further arguments are pointless.

[TexasDirewolf]

On May 20, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Nerevanin said:

The actor who plays LF explicitly said that LF didn't know that Ramsay was a brute and that he is sorry that he let Sansa marry him.

Yeah I went back and read the interview again after my comment. It definitely reads like he didn't know the kind of person Ramsey was. Still, I think he presumed he would be much like his father in not gambling away his most precious chess piece.

[Nerevanin]

6 minutes ago, TexasDirewolf said:

Yeah I went back and read the interview again after my comment. It definitely reads like he didn't know the kind of person Ramsey was. Still, I think he presumed he would be much like his father in not gambling away his most precious chess piece.

Honestly, I'm not very sure about what you mean by this? Do you mind to elaborate?

[TexasDirewolf]

1 minute ago, Nerevanin said:

Honestly, I'm not very sure about what you mean by this? Do you mind to elaborate?

Lol. Sure, wife tells me I'm terrible at explaining myself though. So fair warning. 

I simply think that LF, if operating off of little knowledge of Ramsey, likely assumed that Ramsey would be similar to his father. His father albeit cowardly, traitorous and without honor, never would have committed the acts that Rasmey committed against Sansa. Roose knew that Sansa was the Bolton's best opportunity at securing support in the North. 

Physically or sexually assaulting a Stark could/would have led to a revolt in the north if that news leaked to the other houses. While Roose probably wouldn't have made her life one of glamour and riches, he wouldn't have tortured and humiliated her. I believe LF assumed that Ramsey would be like his father (Roose) in that sense. Given he didn't know much about Ramsey, he had no reason to believe that Ransey would rape and assault the most important piece in maintaining Bolton's reign. He would assume that like Roose, Ramsey wouldn't overplay his hand. He under-estimated Ramsey in the sense that he had no idea how brutal but over-confident the young lord is. 

[Nerevanin]

3 minutes ago, TexasDirewolf said:

Lol. Sure, wife tells me I'm terrible at explaining myself though. So fair warning. 

I simply think that LF, if operating off of little knowledge of Ramsey, likely assumed that Ramsey would be similar to his father. His father albeit cowardly, traitorous and without honor, never would have committed the acts that Rasmey committed against Sansa. Roose knew that Sansa was the Bolton's best opportunity at securing support in the North. 

Physically or sexually assaulting a Stark could/would have led to a revolt in the north if that news leaked to the other houses. While Roose probably wouldn't have made her life one of glamour and riches, he wouldn't have tortured and humiliated her. I believe LF assumed that Ramsey would be like his father (Roose) in that sense. Given he didn't know much about Ramsey, he had no reason to believe that Ransey would rape and assault the most important piece in maintaining Bolton's reign. He would assume that like Roose, Ramsey wouldn't overplay his hand. He under-estimated Ramsey in the sense that he had no idea how brutal but over-confident the young lord is. 

Oh, I get now what you meant. Thanks for explaining. And I agree with you. Roose also seemed to have a reputation (at least in the books) that it would seem that would be able to tame his son if Ramsay was inclined to do something inappropriate. But I suppose that Roose underestimated Ramsay as well. In fact it seems quite wierd that Roose 99% knew what was going on between Ramsay and Sansa and yet he didn't stop Ramsay. Imagine if Ramsay would hurt Sansa so bad that she would die. That wouldn't help much the Boltons with securing their power over the North. Seems a bit as a plot hole, imo.