Heresy 187

[Black Crow]

On 6/15/2016 at 10:49 PM, Brad Stark said:

Both Eddard and Mormont's reaction to the white walkers is solid evidence that people don't "see them every once in a while", and most people don't believe they still exist.  That doesn't mean a few isolated individuals (Craster or the people at Whitetree) couldn't be keeping a secret.  

Direwolves are entirely different - people are surprised by where they are, not that they still exist.  Rangers might "see them every once in a while".

Disagree. Really really. Lord Eddard certainly doesn't know, but he doesn't go up that way and his ignorance of the Musgrave Ritual is deepened by his being a second son and never initiated into it in the first place. Mormont's reaction on the other hand is quite the opposite. The white walkers don't astonish him, its just their proximity which bothers him - and all the other signs and portents as well.

[Lord Pumpkin]

If the NW generally thought the White Walkers didn't exist, they wouldn't have the provision of the blowing the horn. Once for Rangers, twice for Wildlings, three times for Others.

The NW know that Others are real, I'd say they just haven't seen or heard of any for awhile. There hasn't been a long winter for some time. Whether the cold brings the Others or the Others bring the cold, not really relevant. And the NW is based at the Wall, in a defensive position. Let's assume the Wall prevents the Others getting further south, then there is no need for the NW to be going about wandering around the Lands Beyond, actively seeking the locations of the Others.

The Wildlings are also aware of the Others, see Tormund's chat with Jon Snow. 

I think the key here to the apparent increase in Others activity is the winter which is coming.

 

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The white walkers don't astonish him, its just their proximity which bothers him - and all the other signs and portents as well.

My issue with this is that, at best, we can say it's a possible interpretation, yet not the only interpretation. Clearly, some of us read that exact same passage and came away with a different impression of what Mormont was saying--namely, that it's not the proximity that worries him, but the mere fact that reports of WWs exist at all, along with what happened to Royce.

Broadly speaking, we can't cite a single line of text that definitively states that the WWs were always there, and always known, and it's only their recent hostility and raising of the dead that has changed things; the most that we can do is generously interpret lines that can be taken more than one way. On the other hand, we can cite the text to support the idea that WWs haven't been seen in a very long time.

Eddard possibly being out of the loop of family lore doesn't really explain why, in ~15 years of being the Lord of Winterfell, he hadn't ever heard veterans or his own brother talking about WW sightings. With Benjen, at least, we might say he has some ulterior motive or connection to what's happening, but the text has not generally created the context that the presence of WWs was a known thing to the Watch.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Lord Pumpkin said:

If the NW generally thought the White Walkers didn't exist, they wouldn't have the provision of the blowing the horn. Once for Rangers, twice for Wildlings, three times for Others.

The NW know that Others are real, I'd say they just haven't seen or heard of any for awhile. There hasn't been a long winter for some time. Whether the cold brings the Others or the Others bring the cold, not really relevant. And the NW is based at the Wall, in a defensive position. Let's assume the Wall prevents the Others getting further south, then there is no need for the NW to be going about wandering around the Lands Beyond, actively seeking the locations of the Others.

The Wildlings are also aware of the Others, see Tormund's chat with Jon Snow. 

I think the key here to the apparent increase in Others activity is the winter which is coming.

 

I agree with this, and would like to add to the assumption that the Wall may not provide complete protection from the Others, because like you say there wouldn't be any need to go out on dangerous ranging missions if it did. I'm beginning to wonder if the height of the Wall is only meant to slow them down and give the Nights Watch some time to kill them while they scramble up the side of the Wall like spiders.

 

44 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

My issue with this is that, at best, we can say it's a possible interpretation, yet not the only interpretation. Clearly, some of us read that exact same passage and came away with a different impression of what Mormont was saying--namely, that it's not the proximity that worries him, but the mere fact that reports of WWs exist at all, along with what happened to Royce.

Broadly speaking, we can't cite a single line of text that definitively states that the WWs were always there, and always known, and it's only their recent hostility and raising of the dead that has changed things; the most that we can do is generously interpret lines that can be taken more than one way. On the other hand, we can cite the text to support the idea that WWs haven't been seen in a very long time.

Eddard possibly being out of the loop of family lore doesn't really explain why, in ~15 years of being the Lord of Winterfell, he hadn't ever heard veterans or his own brother talking about WW sightings. With Benjen, at least, we might say he has some ulterior motive or connection to what's happening, but the text has not generally created the context that the presence of WWs was a known thing to the Watch.

I agree with this too. And I would also venture to speculate that Ned's knowledge may have been compromised or influenced by his time spent as a ward under Jon Arryn, who was an Andal and practiced the Faith of the Seven. It may have even been the reason why Ned was so accomodating to Catelyn's beliefs by building her a sept at Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Disagree. Really really. Lord Eddard certainly doesn't know, but he doesn't go up that way and his ignorance of the Musgrave Ritual is deepened by his being a second son and never initiated into it in the first place. Mormont's reaction on the other hand is quite the opposite. The white walkers don't astonish him, its just their proximity which bothers him - and all the other signs and portents as well.

Just as a codicil, it occurs to me that in considering what Lord Eddard knows or doesn't know there may be some confusion with the mummers version. In the latter Gared tells Lord Eddard that he saw white walkers, but this aint the case in the book. Bran, whose POV encompasses the execution is unable to hear the exchange beyond recognising that questions are being asked and answers given. Later, in the Catelyn chapter which follows, Lord Eddard tells her that the man was crazed with fear and that what he said made no sense. It might be reasonable to suppose that he did talk of the white walkers who scragged Ser Waymar, but he might also have talked of bringing the she-wolf through the Wall - hence Lord Eddard's disquiet at the discovery, but we don't know and I'd venture that no-one now living knows what he actually said.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Lord Pumpkin said:

If the NW generally thought the White Walkers didn't exist, they wouldn't have the provision of the blowing the horn. Once for Rangers, twice for Wildlings, three times for Others.

The NW know that Others are real, I'd say they just haven't seen or heard of any for awhile. There hasn't been a long winter for some time. Whether the cold brings the Others or the Others bring the cold, not really relevant. And the NW is based at the Wall, in a defensive position. Let's assume the Wall prevents the Others getting further south, then there is no need for the NW to be going about wandering around the Lands Beyond, actively seeking the locations of the Others.

The Wildlings are also aware of the Others, see Tormund's chat with Jon Snow. 

I think the key here to the apparent increase in Others activity is the winter which is coming.

 

That added to everything else going bump in the night...

I would mention by the by that the business of blowing the horn won't be a simple three blasts for the blue-eyed lot. In the ordinary way of things a single blast for friends would normally be repeated at intervals just to ensure that it was heard and recognised, and it might well be taken up by others [no not them] as well.

Consequently what would actually happen is that single blasts would recognise friends; a double blast similarly repeated would warn of wildlings, while a rising triple would be appropriate for the blue-eyed lot.

Something which follows from that of course is that if the "Others" [yes them] aint been seen for thousands of years, who is going to recognise them as such? Crasters boys on the other hand; the white walkers; the white shadows in the woods or on the shore by Eastwatch, well that's a different matter. Its them.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Broadly speaking, we can't cite a single line of text that definitively states that the WWs were always there, and always known, and it's only their recent hostility and raising of the dead that has changed things; the most that we can do is generously interpret lines that can be taken more than one way. On the other hand, we can cite the text to support the idea that WWs haven't been seen in a very long time.

 

But yet that text from those who believe that the Others and [though they may be one and the same] the three-fingered tree-huggers no longer exist, comes from characters who are below the Wall. As Osha says up above it they know different.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 I'm beginning to wonder if the height of the Wall is only meant to slow them down and give the Nights Watch some time to kill them while they scramble up the side of the Wall like spiders.

That depends who really built it with that deep magic and why - hence my suggested alternative narrative a couple of pages back.

[Rise]

Wondering what actually stops Others getting around the wall, is there magic there too or don't the coastal areas near the wall freeze?

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Rise said:

Wondering what actually stops Others getting around the wall, is there magic there too or don't the coastal areas near the wall freeze?

There's a couple of ways of looking at this one. First the magic of the Wall may not stop them at all, especially if its their own madgic and if the Black Gate is unlocked. Secondly we don't actually know the nature of the ends of the Wall. Ser Denys Mallister was reporting increasing numbers of Wildling refugees slipping past the Shadow Tower, so the western end is clearly a bit "leaky". On the other hand Eastwatch goes right up to the waterline and probably a bit further.

It probably depends on the nature of the threat. Crasters boys may be able to slip around by the Shadow Tower quite easily if the're so inclined. Taking an army of wights round that way might be a different matter entirely.

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 Crasters boys on the other hand; the white walkers; the white shadows in the woods or on the shore by Eastwatch, well that's a different matter.

An idea never actually stated by a single ranger. What Mormont repeats is exactly that: a troubling report.

There's yet another Mormont conversation about Benjen's disappearance, this one after Jon has been at the Wall for a while:
 

Quote

Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

Yet Lord Commander Mormont gave a snort. "If Ben Stark had come under Wildling attack a half day's ride from Castle Black, he would have returned for more men, chased the killers through all seven hells and brought me back their heads."

Why is this Jon's context for the Others, at the Wall? White walkers - which the men of Westeros are not unfamiliar with as a byword for Others - gone eight thousand years, the suspicion is in the air, yet the idea still feels too silly to say aloud. Nobody will suggest it, and Jon apparently hasn't been told by his fellow brothers that the white walkers aren't just a fairy tale.

It's not damning, and one can make an excuse for why Jon hasn't yet heard from his brothers that WWs are real, but that remains my precise problem: this isn't an interpretation built on a strong foundation from the text, it's an interpretation that must perpetually make excuses for why it doesn't align with the text.

More broadly, I'm not really sure what the plot value would be either. Why create the impression that WWs haven't been seen in 8,000 years, only for that to be untrue? What is the unique value of that revelation? From my perspective, the Others not being seen in 8,000 years is actually one of our early warning signs that the Others are not an ancient northern race, but something else entirely.

There is the occasional tale in the Watch annals (according to the WB), some not all that old, of this ranger engaging in trade with the CotF, or that ranger running afoul of a giant. Of the Others, as Sam observes, there is almost nothing at all--which is as it should be, because they're not an ancient race one occasionally encounters, they're a weapon that has not been seen since the days of the LN. This is why nobody, not even the Wildlings pledging themselves to Jon in ADWD, has any useful insight to offer.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

An idea never actually stated by a single ranger. What Mormont repeats is exactly that: a troubling report.

There's yet another Mormont conversation about Benjen's disappearance, this one after Jon has been at the Wall for a while:

  Quote

Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him.

  Quote

Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

Yet Lord Commander Mormont gave a snort. "If Ben Stark had come under Wildling attack a half day's ride from Castle Black, he would have returned for more men, chased the killers through all seven hells and brought me back their heads."

 The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

Yet Lord Commander Mormont gave a snort. "If Ben Stark had come under Wildling attack a half day's ride from Castle Black, he would have returned for more men, chased the killers through all seven hells and brought me back their heads."

Why is this Jon's context for the Others, at the Wall? White walkers - which the men of Westeros are not unfamiliar with as a byword for Others - gone eight thousand years, the suspicion is in the air, yet the idea still feels too silly to say aloud. Nobody will suggest it, and Jon apparently hasn't been told by his fellow brothers that the white walkers aren't just a fairy tale.

It's not damning, and one can make an excuse for why Jon hasn't yet heard from his brothers that WWs are real, but that remains my precise problem: this isn't an interpretation built on a strong foundation from the text, it's an interpretation that must perpetually make excuses for why it doesn't align with the text.

More broadly, I'm not really sure what the plot value would be either. Why create the impression that WWs haven't been seen in 8,000 years, only for that to be untrue? What is the unique value of that revelation? From my perspective, the Others not being seen in 8,000 years is actually one of our early warning signs that the Others are not an ancient northern race, but something else entirely.

There is the occasional tale in the Watch annals (according to the WB), some not all that old, of this ranger engaging in trade with the CotF, or that ranger running afoul of a giant. Of the Others, as Sam observes, there is almost nothing at all--which is as it should be, because they're not an ancient race one occasionally encounters, they're a weapon that has not been seen since the days of the LN. This is why nobody, not even the Wildlings pledging themselves to Jon in ADWD, has any useful insight to offer.

I'd argue for completely the opposite interpretation.

Mormont, angry to the point of sarcasm, asks Jon if he thinks its Mance Rayder's work - clearly knowing its nothing of the sort.

Jon, aware that he's the new kid on the block and knows nothing, responds with a "who else", but He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. And all of them includes Mormont. They're just afraid to say it out loud. What's worrying them is not that they are out there but that instead of just been distant glimpses in the woods, they're on the move again after all these years along with everything else. Their old complacency is shattered. That's where the plot value lies. Down south of the Wall everybody knows the Others are long gone, north of the Wall there are no armies of the slain and if the white walkers are glimpsed they are also avoided so why worry, but now all the old certainties are overturned, the old powers are wakening and after being disregarded for so long they are literally coming out of the shadows where they have been hiding.

Rather I'd turn your question around; when we have Craster sacrificing his sons long before the story opens; when we have the Wildlings knowing and remembering what's out there; when we have three-fingered tree-huggers who really are alive and well; when we have the haunted forest itself and direwolves howling in the hills, what is the value of claiming that nobody knows what's really out there?

The story works perfectly well as it does. The threat has always been out there in the otherlands beyond the Wall; that the danger is there but until now has been underestimated or disregarded because it appears quiescent is a rather more credible and realistic scenario, than there being nothing out there until all of a sudden the demon king springs out of a trapdoor. Its all about the disregarding of the dangers and the disregarding of the warning signs until its too late rather than there being no threat.

 

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Mormont, angry to the point of sarcasm, asks Jon if he thinks its Mance Rayder's work - clearly knowing its nothing of the sort.

Jon, aware that he's the new kid on the block and knows nothing, responds with a "who else", but He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. And all of them includes Mormont. They're just afraid to say it out loud.

Nope. This misunderstanding is my mistake, since I tried to pull enough of the conversation to get to the point I was making - Jon's belief that the WWs possibly aren't even real, despite spending some time on the Wall - but in the fuller conversation, Mormont isn't speaking to Jon, he's speaking to Jaremy Rykker, who has been on the Wall since Robert's Rebellion. It was Ser Jaremy that both suggested Benjen had been attacked by Wildlings, and asked "Who else?" in response to Mormont.

Apparently, according to Ser Jaremy, a fifteen year veteran of the Watch, the white walkers need not even be considered, and the Wildlings are the only plausible suggestion.
 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Their old complacency is shattered.

It's more than just complacency; even if they'd devoted their lives to studying Castle Black's records, the information itself is largely missing, as Sam attests. They have almost no context for combating the Others because such a thing hasn't been done since the LN, and even then it's not clear how much of the lore of the NW's founding and purpose is incorrect.
 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

...underestimated or disregarded because it appears quiescent is a rather more credible and realistic scenario

Why? What is the standard that makes it more "credible," much less more realistic? If we're operating with a baseline view that the WWs are soldiers, raised for the specific purpose of slaying men, why is it more credible that they were hovering around, not fulfilling the purpose they're designed for during an 8,000 year period? If anything, the fact that they're not a biological race that breeds and maintains a functional culture, but instead are living weapons raised by sorcery, better suits the idea that they weren't attacking because nobody was making new WWs.
 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

...until all of a sudden the demon king springs out of a trapdoor.

The NK, if he actually exists in the books, needs a satisfactory explanation in any scenario, even the one you propose. IMO, "the NK and his army was always there, but not attacking humanity for some reason" is not any better or more believable than "the NK was sealed/incapacitated/magically impotent until recently."

At least under a scenario where the NK has only recently been reawakened/re-empowered, we open the door to the Others' return being linked to recent history and human action, perhaps even the actions of a familiar character, as opposed to everything happening because the NK himself decided it was the right time to go all genocidal.

[Black Crow]

Given the uncanonical appearance of the Nights King in the mummers'version, my referencing a Demon King was unfortunate to say the least, but my point remains. This is an old enemy which has been there all the time, unregarded and underestimated, rather than a new thing bursting forth unheralded on to the scene - and indeed that is underlined by the existence of the three-fingered tree-huggers, who have likewise been around all the time.

[Black Crow]

To be honest, while we're obviously not going to agree on this one, I have to question if it actually matters.

Whether the white walkers were known of, or invisible, the fact of the matter is that the awakening of the old powers and everything that went with that from the trees having eyes to the walking dead, came as a pretty nasty shock to the men in black.

That's what matters  

 

 

[Melifeather]

The white walkers and wights were not always there. They haven't been seen since the Long Night when magic was contained. The people who were working magic are the wildlings who also have been contained behind the Wall. Something happened fairly recently, right before the Starks found the pups. Magic was released somehow. We aren't told how it happened, but it happened. We know it happened because dragons hatched and white walkers returned. Mormont and Jon are disturbed by the reports, but initially they were having a hard time believing that there were actually white walkers and wights until they began seeing them for themselves. Prior to that they thought Mance Rayder and his wildlings were to blame.

[Other other stark]

I've been on these forums for a long time and really don't post. But just as we look to martins ice dragon for clues. We can apply his other publishings. It really feels like this is a culmination of all his previous works despite this being labeled fantasy and the others being sci fi. But I would say it's the comet that spikes the magic. Martin has a book that has this very thing. Only it's not a comet and more of a machine. I do think magic is always there, since we obviously have skin changers before our story takes place. Or "teke" as he would label it in other stories. I am not an expert on his works and really just read books one time around. If anyone really wants to get more information there is a user on YouTube Preston Jacobs who does an amazing job of linking his old stories to asoiaf. He also gives some very interesting ideas to what is important about stark or valerian blood genetics as an "x" chromosome and does a fantastic job of connecting all the dots to a lot of plot and how they correlate to his other works. I guess since I am writing this I should add some of my own two cents. And just say that whoever is in charge of the white walkers. They have been biding there time for a perfect scenario. I feel like it would be the case even if they had to wait another 8000 years for the sun, moon, and stars to align etc. however it's not another 8000 years, it's now. So Starks get the wolves and the walkers raise the dead and the children must get a greenseer (I don't think this has to be a stark just a human with the will to fly). 

[House Cambodia]

^ Last month I started a new thread about GRRM's previous stories since I began reading his 1000 Worlds series. I believe, like Preston Jacobs and yourself that there are many clues to help us interpret ASOIAF in those stories. Thr the thread was mysteriously waxed, suggesting it's somewhere the moderators don't want us to go. Too close to the truth???

[Black Crow]

As the moderators don't know where this is going I doubt we're faced with a plot to deny truth is out there 

[Black Crow]

Seriously though, this is something we end up discussing from time to time and while I do find the links to GRRM's other works fascinating and insightful, they are other works and I'm very wary of using them to predict outcomes in Westeros.

While there might sometimes be an element laziness the usual reason why writers revisit their earlier work is because they are unsatisfied with it or want to explore it from a different angle with different outcomes, or they may want to explore interesting secondary issues which would otherwise be a digression from the core story.

A good case in point here is the suggestion that once ASoIF is sorted he would like to embark on that history of the Targaryens