Heresy 187

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I agree with Tucu, and am very sceptical concerning the Greenseers alleged power over nature. I've theorised elsewhere that the CotF and their Greenseers were not responsible for the Hammer or any other global geological event; otherwise, they would do this stuff more often and more recently. I think they took the credit for natural events (that weren't exactly 'natural' - I have a 'Gaian' theory). I'm more inclined to agree with you re. the NK, though. I don't think he was a greenseer, and I don't think he was the Last Hero. FWIW I think Bran is re-enacting the role of the LH.

GRRM has said that the dodgy seasons et al have a magical rather than a natural cause and that all will be revealed in good time. What's emphasised in the World book is how many greenseers, how much effort and how much blood sacrificed was required to work the great magicks. Its not something to be done lightly or often.

We kept being told how magic has its price and although it hasn't been touched upon one thing which is worth bearing in mind is that Leaf comments on how their numbers have always been few because the tree-huggers are so long-lived. Of itself that's straightforward enough, but if they sacrificed so very many of their own to work those great magicks, it must have taken a pretty heavy bite out of their own breeding stock and if they really are dying out that's not just because of their being slaughtered by men but because they themselves slaughtered so many of their own.

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Inclined to disagree on the Nights King. According to Old Nan he was a man who knew no fear, and while that's not to deny the possibility of his being a warg, that doesn't really sound like a greenseer.

As to Qaithe, again I'm not convinced, especially if she needs to use a glass candle. If she fits into or at least is to be compared against the Westerosi model, I'd see her more as a greendreamer, like Jojen Reed.

BC,Old Nan wouldn't know that.No one knew Bloodraven was a Greenseer.Heck no one knows the Greenseers could be men.They have made it a point to be in the dark nothing leads back to them.We are the readers are the only ones that know they are in play.

The trees having eyes again is source for terror that is what Qhorin was afraid of these buggers being in play again.

[wolfmaid7]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

The NK in the book was probably just the protector of the pact that ended the war between humans and the Others. Nothing suggests that he had greenseers' power. Brandon the Breaker was probably one of the leaders that rose against the conditions of that pact and broke it. If a few generations had passed from the raising of the Wall, it is understandable that they wished to stop the human sacrifices.

 

Thematic subtlness suggest otherwise.....I'll explain this a bit later when i get back home. 

[Other other stark]

I know previously we were discussing how the Starks might have the same gods as the children but were separate factions. It's also possible that they were part of the same faction at one time. Until a stark brother was jealous of the abilities he lacked. So he takes on the warg king(possibly a stark?), the marsh King(children) and so on until he can't be contested. This would also mean wiping out the nights King who would be loyal to all the stark/children connections and history. Which would bring it full circle to the messed up timelines. And this would make a lot of sense of its all closer then were told. Andals don't like the children/north and there Gods. Younger stark brother is jealous and bam the Andals get there mole. I don't know how to tie joramon into this but I'm sure there is an angle for that part as well. I also look to the umber/giant connection and the breaker of chains. We hear the stories of ravenous Giants. I've always felt this was just children warging the Giants in times of war. This might be how they broke there chains. All part of an andal/stark expulsion of the old ways and old alliances. Like our history shows. If you take everything away it is hard to make the people you conquer become part of the winners culture. So the north keeps there gods and gives up open practice of warging, skin changing, and greenseers. The last being if that's even public knowledge. Again this all could be forgotten in a matter of 1000-2000 years. It doesn't take 8000

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Other other stark said:

I know previously we were discussing how the Starks might have the same gods as the children but were separate factions. It's also possible that they were part of the same faction at one time...

Oh absolutely, and we can see evidence of what you're suggesting in Wildling attitudes to the Starks. If, as a result of the Long Night the Starks pledged allegiance to the Old Gods and their greenseers, with all the blood sacrifice that entailed I could easily see an alliance of convenience to overthrow the Nights King end end the sacrifices north and south of the Wall.

[Melifeather]

In a fantasy world where blood sacrifice creates shadowbabies and white walkers, and the dead to rise as wights, why is it so hard to believe that greenseers have power over nature? The books repeat that they can and there is nothing to suggest that they cannot. As for LmL's theory, correct me if I am wrong, but he is stating that Lightbringer was the comet that was forged to split the moon, is he not? Who forged the "sword" if not the greenseers of the Children? 

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

In a fantasy world where blood sacrifice creates shadowbabies and white walkers, and the dead to rise as wights, why is it so hard to believe that greenseers have power over nature? The books repeat that they can and there is nothing to suggest that they cannot. As for LmL's theory, correct me if I am wrong, but he is stating that Lightbringer was the comet that was forged to split the moon, is he not? Who forged the "sword" if not the greenseers of the Children? 

Okay , i agree that the greenseers is the most likely candidate of causing the impact. 

 

[LordImp]

Why is it impossible that NK was a Greenseer? There are many good theories out there suggesting that . The NK tale told by Old Nan has probably changed a lot during what is It 8k years. We dont even know if NK was a Stark , so i dont understand why NK is a greenseer is out of the realm of possibilities. 

[Black Crow]

31 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Okay , i agree that the greenseers is the most likely candidate of causing the impact. 

 

The point is that it was greenseers [plural] lots of them drawing on the blood of thousands of sacrifices - not a single greenseer with delusions of grandeur and god-like powers

[Black Crow]

28 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Why is it impossible that NK was a Greenseer? There are many good theories out there suggesting that . The NK tale told by Old Nan has probably changed a lot during what is It 8k years. We dont even know if NK was a Stark , so i dont understand why NK is a greenseer is out of the realm of possibilities. 

Its not out of the realms of possibility, but it doesn't matter how many theories are out there; there isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest it. No matter what your opinion as to Old Nan and her stories she is our sole source of information, other than what's repeated in the World Book.

He was the commander of the Nights Watch and lived at the Nightfort. He took up with the white lady [who may have been a daughter of the Barrow Kings] and he sacrificed to the Others. He may have been a Stark and he was overthrown by the Stark of Winterfell and Joruman of the Wildlings.

And that's it. Perfectly comprehensible but not the slightest scintilla of a hint that he was a greenseer or behaved in a greenseer-like manner. 

[LordImp]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The point is that it was greenseers [plural] lots of them drawing on the blood of thousands of sacrifices - not a single greenseer with delusions of grandeur and god-like powers

 I never said that there was a single greenseer causing it. 

[LordImp]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its not out of the realms of possibility, but it doesn't matter how many theories are out there; there isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest it. No matter what your opinion as to Old Nan and her stories she is our sole source of information, other than what's repeated in the World Book.

He was the commander of the Nights Watch and lived at the Nightfort. He took up with the white lady [who may have been a daughter of the Barrow Kings] and he sacrificed to the Others. He may have been a Stark and he was overthrown by the Stark of Winterfell and Joruman of the Wildlings.

And that's it. Perfectly comprehensible but not the slightest scintilla of a hint that he was a greenseer or behaved in a greenseer-like manner. 

I dont mean to be rude. But there's a lot of ideas on this threads that have zero evicence backing them . You have your opinion i have mine .

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, LordImp said:

 I never said that there was a single greenseer causing it. 

Point taken, but I still have a problem with the notion of if in doubt blame it on the greenseers

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, LordImp said:

I dont mean to be rude. But there's a lot of ideas on this threads that have zero evicence backing them . You have your opinion i have mine .

I prefer to have some evidence 

[Brad Stark]

We can pick almost any historical character and theorize they were a greenseer without much evidence to disprove it.  Imo this isn't useful unless they did greenseer like things (e.g. Bran the builder)

We don't know much about what a greenseer's power is, but we know it goes far beyond just being a warg.   One in a thousand men can warg and one in a thousand wargs can be a greenseer.  This wouldn't be mentioned if a greenseer was just a warg with a few other odds and ends.  Grmm won't give us a character with God like power, so we know it doesn't go that far.

I hope this doesn't just end up being poorly defined,  as in so much other fiction.  E.g. a wizard that is very powerful and wizardly but doesn't have specific powers listed and doesn't do much in the story.

[Brad Stark]

In this series,  magic and religion are almost the same thing.  We've been assuming the Children and Starks had similar religious beliefs,  but maybe it isn't that at all.   Maybe the Starks learned to use whatever magic the children had, became very powerful and took over.  The trees are important because you can look through their eyes, and maybe do other things, not because they are gods to worship.

[LordImp]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I prefer to have some evidence 

Understandable. 

[LordImp]

10 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

In this series,  magic and religion are almost the same thing.  We've been assuming the Children and Starks had similar religious beliefs,  but maybe it isn't that at all.   Maybe the Starks learned to use whatever magic the children had, became very powerful and took over.  The trees are important because you can look through their eyes, and maybe do other things, not because they are gods to worship.

Talking about magic and religion. Wonder if the Fo7 once had something magical about it or if they are just the catholics of Planetos . As for now i picture them as catholics . 

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

In this series,  magic and religion are almost the same thing.  We've been assuming the Children and Starks had similar religious beliefs,  but maybe it isn't that at all.   Maybe the Starks learned to use whatever magic the children had, became very powerful and took over.  The trees are important because you can look through their eyes, and maybe do other things, not because they are gods to worship.

I'm not sure its necessarily a matter of using the trees to do anything in a physical sense. We've no indicators that the Starks of Winterfell have any powers to look through the trees or whatever.

Rather, although they refer to the Old Gods and some say that the greenseers going into the trees collectively become the Old Gods, I think that to the Starks and others who follow the old ways the trees serve as a focus point for prayers, confessions, grief and all the other emotional outpouring that make us human, but that's not necessarily the same full on stuff practiced by the tree-huggers.

[LordImp]

Wonder when the Starks started getting warg powers . Was it the builder or was it perhaps after conquering the Warg King and taking this daughters as price? If the Stark didnt get there  powers before after the warg King stuff then i think the Starks definetly was in another faction than the old gods lot , they where more alligned with the Others i guess.