Problem with Dorne Dany alliance.

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

 

Yeah, but again here is the problem I see like with some of her other groups. It's easy to support someone's cause when you are getting a direct benefit. The Greyjoy kids ran knowing their uncle was going to hunt them down and Danny was the only person they could ally with. They don't want to destroy their people, they want to kill their uncle and get control back.

The people however, choose their Uncle because he is the embodiment of their culture, talented pirates. Now if the Greyjoy kids show up with a fleet of outsiders to take on their own people that wont go well. They may very well win the battle but anyone with a ship will leave and become independent pirates or sellswords.

Lol, I'm just trying to picture the British empire sailing into the Caribbean and telling all the pirates that have to start fishing for a living.

You are overestimating show Ironborn. They were chanting Yara's name till Euron came with a cock joke. They will abandon him the moment he loses.

Dany - Greyjoy agreement is not out of place. This agreement of no rape and reave must have been in effect before the story. Remember Balon is the king to go back to the Old way. No Ironborn left to become pirates and sellswords when Quellon ruled.

Their agreement is simple. It's to restore Balon's heirs to their throne and to give up reaving. Pretty much every king on the Iron throne's condition. I am sure Robb Stark would have had these condition too when he thought of allying with them. It's Cohabiting with the Ironborn 101's first rule.

Them leaving the Iron Islands to live as pirates and sellswords doesn't make sense at all. It's after all their gifted land from the Drowned God. This argument again is because of your view of them as stereotypical pirates. They had a history of being a Kingdom without reaving and the Old way. Them going back to that is the only peaceful end a ruler of the Iron throne could hope for.

[House_Tony_Stark]

3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

That all depends on what fate Martin has planned for Dothraki. What will happen to the Dothraki that will cross the sea? Are they going to stay there or return to Essos? I am leaning towards the later. And how many of them will survive? We had 100000 wildlings attacking the wall and there may be just 4000 or something left. A similar fate for Dothraki will bring sea change. It all depends. 

Of course they are not going to change overnight. Pillaging is the way they survive and I don't expect them to suddenly go to farming. And their culture sees rape as a price of victory. But slavery is not something that is associated with their religion and culture. It was because some Dothraki khal thought it will be be an easy way for money if they sold slaves. It depends on khals really. We see khals like Drogo using threats to extort money from great cities like pentos and them showering them with 'gifts'. He even owns a big house there. And we see he decides to pillage Lhazareen only after he decides to attack Westeros as a way to raise money. This at least shows selling people in to slavery isn't their only option.

And there is a possibility that we are actually seeing the downfall of Dothraki like the Mongols and that depends on how it will all play out. As of now we don't have a clue. We have to see how the culture shock of seeing the snowy land across the poison water going to affect them. Whatever it maybe things are happening for Dothraki which has never happened in their thousand years of history. And we really don't know what will happen to their civilisation but we know they are set to change. For glory or for doom remains to be seen.

I fully expect them to want to go home also. It's one thing to get a chance to sack the most powerful city in the world as a warrior. It's another thing to live there and then start fighting zombies in the cold. Do the Dothraki men even own shirts lol? 

The Wildlings lead a charge they knew would be near impossible because they knew they would die if they didn't get beyond the wall. The Dothraki don't have that same sense of desperation so it will be pretty impressive if she gets them to stay. 

[ADanceWithCats]

I think that the Iron Islands should follow in the footsteps of their Earth counterparts, make contact with the Iron Bank (heh) and try to branch into offshore finance/banking. It's piracy under a different name, so they should find it very much to their taste.

Just imagine: in fifty years, everyone could be talking about the Iron Islands Banking Corporation (IIBC)!

 

e: and to respond to the original topic of this thread, I think that including Ellaria in Dany's alliance is a fascinating thing. Jon dealt with Mel by banishing her, how will Dany deal with the killers of her closest advisor's niece?

[khal drogon]

51 minutes ago, ADanceWithCats said:

e: and to respond to the original topic of thisallhread, I think that including Ellaria in Dany's alliance is a fascinating thing. Jon dealt with Mel by banishing her, how will Dany deal with the killers of her closest advisor's niece?

 

Yes it's fascinating. Now Tyrion is the guy who sent Myrcella to Dorne. How would he feel about it? Wouldn't he feel responsible for what happened to Myrcella? What would be his advise to his queen? It will be interesting to see.

Ellaria doesn't have any grey area like Mel. Mel killed a little girl because she believed that would help her army and she saved Jon. Ellaria killed a little girl to provoke a war. I am eager to see how that will be dealt with. It's a test for both Dany and Tyrion. I don't have faith in D&D yet I hope they explore this.

[Pelagie]

19 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

Yes I get that impression as well, Dany isn't simply viewed as a Khal but with religious awe.

I actually felt this season of the show made the way Dany was treated by her small band of Dothraki post funeral pyre earlier on make a bit more sense as well. In both situations we obviously had the significance of rising from the traditional funeral pyre to the Dothraki which in this case also avoids spilling blood in the holy city. Now though we get more of a view on the Dosh Khaleen, they featured a little in season 1 but this time we see them more as a cast of priestesses who have a lot of religious significance but little in the way of actual power.

I think that casts Dany's takeover less as simply savages being awed by a supernatural event and more as a kind of social revolution, the religious class replacing the warrior class, akin to say the Japanese Emporer becoming the(at least nominally)poltical ruler of Japan again in the 19th century rather than just having a ceremonial/religious role under the Shoguns. Beyond titillation as well I think it shows the purpose for having Dany nude in both situations, highlighting the shift from a male warrior class to previously much more covered up female religious class..

Totally right with that.

 

Cultural changes by religion are the only ones wich can be fast and deep. A society ask nothing more than a good storytelling of it fate and destiny !

And every one in that case try to keep blind to everything wich can broke the dream ! There is no more consequence or futur...

[House_Tony_Stark]

10 hours ago, khal drogon said:

 

Yes it's fascinating. Now Tyrion is the guy who sent Myrcella to Dorne. How would he feel about it? Wouldn't he feel responsible for what happened to Myrcella? What would be his advise to his queen? It will be interesting to see.

Ellaria doesn't have any grey area like Mel. Mel killed a little girl because she believed that would help her army and she saved Jon. Ellaria killed a little girl to provoke a war. I am eager to see how that will be dealt with. It's a test for both Dany and Tyrion. I don't have faith in D&D yet I hope they explore this.

If someone killed my little girl or niece they would smell what the Rock is cooking. 

I'm excited to see what decision she will make, it will be a defining moment in her morals. Will she make the choice that will further her goals and tell her friend "I don't care how you feel this army will benefit me". Or will she do the morally correct thing and say "I refuse to ally with anyone who would resort to such heinous methods, woman or man". 

It's not a situation of where she could just send the leader away and then rally the nation behind somewhere else. Dorne as a whole seems pretty unified in their hate of the Lannisters. 

[MoreOrLess]

22 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

This is all the biggest weakness of this alliance. People are allied because of specific self interests.

The Reach for example, what happens of Cersei tells one of the Tarly that House Tyrell has no heirs and once granny dies there will be civil war among the houses. If says that since all the male heirs are dead the crown now names House Tarly the news rulers of high garden there goes that alliance and the tide is suddenly shifted against Danny. 

The setup for the Tarly's to me seemed to go a bit beyond just having Sam stand up to his dad and take the VS sword, I wouldn't be at all supprised if they feature next season and the potential for them siding with Cersei in return for being named lords of the Reach certainly seems to be there.

That would obviously even things up somewhat in terms of resouces and you could argue just as importantly in terms of characters as Randyll Tarly is very imposing and you could argue now the best field commander in Westeros.

A lot really depends on how the story progresses as well of course, most people expect Dany to beat Cersei next season and season 8 to be focused on the fight with the walkers but I wouldn't say that definitely going to be the case and it could be that the conflict with Cersei goes on longer which would open up the chance for more politics. If not though I think a lot of things would need to be set in motion fairly quickly, say have the Tarly's swearing to Cersei right at the opening of the season.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

39 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

If someone killed my little girl or niece they would smell what the Rock is cooking. 

I'm excited to see what decision she will make, it will be a defining moment in her morals. Will she make the choice that will further her goals and tell her friend "I don't care how you feel this army will benefit me". Or will she do the morally correct thing and say "I refuse to ally with anyone who would resort to such heinous methods, woman or man". 

It's not a situation of where she could just send the leader away and then rally the nation behind somewhere else. Dorne as a whole seems pretty unified in their hate of the Lannisters. 

That's just it though - if the Dornish break with Dany they lose their chance to get vengeance against the Lannisters (Cersei).  I bet there will be some Dornish that would rather let Dany kill Ellaria for Myrcella if it would allow them to take out Cersei.  

[Iron Mother]

On 7/4/2016 at 9:35 AM, khal drogon said:

Dany's war is against people who are "usurpers". Her alliance with Ironborn makes sense because their uncle Euron is an usurper. Tyrells want revenge against the Lannisters so as her. But the Dornish alliance doesn't make sense. Ellaria usurps the ruling family by killing their family members. And which other ruling family was usurped after killing their family members - the Targaryens. Sure they both want revenge against the Lannisters and Dorne brings her an army. But they are and they should be more liability than asset and they shouldn't be her allies. They are kinslaying, usurping bastards who murdered their liege who wasn't even bad and they shouldn't be in power at all. They are in the level of Ramsay and Euron and Cersei in kinslaying and they killed a man who would be her natural ally. They also murdered a child. They are everything Dany is against except their hatred for the Lannisters. And Dany wants the world to be a better place and a better world is a world without these Sand Fakes. I hope she realises what they are and feed them to Drogon. Damn, I hate Ellaria and co.

 

 

Thank you for Truthing on Dorne.  I want them all dead.  I want some back-biting truce-breaking between Elaria and Dany and I want ALL of the thrown into a pit and Drogon and co. hover and give them a blast of healing flames.  And I want to see a long and often scene of Elaria bent down with her head facing upward and hands to the sides of her head shrieking as she burns alive.

Nothing beside the mere existence of the Kardizians have made less sense and have been more worthless of portrayal than Dorne on the TV version of this story.

Thank you again for pairing with my rage against the idiocy that has become Dorne on the TV show.  Oh, and I want those who stayed loyal to the Royal House of Dorne to throw blood oranges at them in the pit as they burn.   And possibly one of them to discover Hotar's longaxe, toss it into the pit, and slay at least 2 sand snakes before the fire reigns down.

[Grizzly A Mormont]

On 7/6/2016 at 7:31 PM, Biffins said:

The Lannisters didn't do anything to the Red Viper. He chose to be Tyrion's champion and he lost the fight against the Mountain fair and square. There were no shennanigans involved in that fight. How are the Lannisters to blame for the Red Viper's death?

Gregor Clegane, AKA, The Mountain That Rides, head of House Clegane, raped Elia Martell, then killed her after killing her children. Oberyn Martell was in King's Landing for the Purple Wedding. When he discovered that Gregor would be the one that Tyrions champion would face, he voluteered in order to avenge his sister and her children. Gregor is/was a loyal retainer to House Lannister, specifically Tywin, who Oberyn believed mostly likely gave the order. 

[MoreOrLess]

2 hours ago, Grizzly A Mormont said:

Gregor Clegane, AKA, The Mountain That Rides, head of House Clegane, raped Elia Martell, then killed her after killing her children. Oberyn Martell was in King's Landing for the Purple Wedding. When he discovered that Gregor would be the one that Tyrions champion would face, he voluteered in order to avenge his sister and her children. Gregor is/was a loyal retainer to House Lannister, specifically Tywin, who Oberyn believed mostly likely gave the order. 

Pretty much and of course with Oberyn "revenge" does not have to mean "justice".