Does Qhorin = Qhoran?

[Aryya Stark]

10 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

It just continues in the next two comments, I believe. (Ignore the strikethroughs) All 4 parts are right there.

Fascinating the way (brilliant, to be sure) poster has to bend over to try to work in The White Bull and how much cleaner the whole thing gets if Qhorin=Gerold (it's THE TAUROCTONY!) and Ashara DAYNE is Jon's mother/Perseus's mother "Danaë" (say the name out loud: Dayna).

I just thought the entire theory was brilliant and the amount of thought and research put into it was very obvious. However, his premise was that R+L=J and he interpreted Danae as Daenerys, with the whole 2 moons analogy. One being Lyanna and the second Dany. 

I see how it could also fit Ashara Dayne, now that you have pointed it out. You claim Qhorin was the white bull that was sacrificed. There are many of the symbolisms that were in the Tauroctony. I saw the cave symbolism, the eagle symbolism, the dire wolf/dog symbolism, Jon looking away symbolism as he slit the bull's throat. However, I must be really obtuse because I didn't see the serpent and raven symbolism. Is the raven symbolism connected to him being a brother of the NW? If so then in the Tauroctony we are left with the serpent....can't really figure that out.

[M_Tootles]

Just now, Aryya Stark said:

I just thought the entire theory was brilliant and the amount of thought and research put into it was very obvious. However, his premise was that R+L=J and he interpreted Danae as Daenerys, with the whole 2 moons analogy. One being Lyanna and the second Dany. 

I see how it could also fit Ashara Dayne, now that you have pointed it out. You claim Qhorin was the white bull that was sacrificed. There are many of the symbolisms that were in the Tauroctony. I saw the cave symbolism, the eagle symbolism, the dire wolf/dog symbolism, Jon looking away symbolism as he slit the bull's throat. However, I must be really obtuse because I didn't see the serpent and raven symbolism. Is the raven symbolism connected to him being a brother of the NW? If so then in the Tauroctony we are left with the serpent....can't really figure that out.

Yeah, it's crazy. I'm working on my BAJ RLD thing right now, 25,000 words, 140,000 characters or some such nonsense at this point. I'll work in a reworking of the Mithras stuff eventually, explaining the details in terms of RLD BAJ. It's just such a strong theory that even though he thinks RLJ and I don't (and think it fits BAJ better) it totally compels me. Anyway, it might or might not be in his posts, but IIRC they always show Mithras coming out out a stone with a snake/serpent wrapped around it. Stonesnake. The ranger. Don't remember the raven, but yeah, the watch certainly works.

I don't remember exactly what he does with the moons. I know it's similar to @Lucifer Lightbringer but LL really nails that stuff down. They're both RLJ people.

[Aryya Stark]

30 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Yeah, it's crazy. I'm working on my BAJ RLD thing right now, 25,000 words, 140,000 characters or some such nonsense at this point. I'll work in a reworking of the Mithras stuff eventually, explaining the details in terms of RLD BAJ. It's just such a strong theory that even though he thinks RLJ and I don't (and think it fits BAJ better) it totally compels me. Anyway, it might or might not be in his posts, but IIRC they always show Mithras coming out out a stone with a snake/serpent wrapped around it. Stonesnake. The ranger. Don't remember the raven, but yeah, the watch certainly works.

I don't remember exactly what he does with the moons. I know it's similar to @Lucifer Lightbringer but LL really nails that stuff down. They're both RLJ people.

I am really looking forward to reading it. I couldn't stop thinking about the theory and want to go back and reread it again because I am sure I missed a lot on my first reading. 

Yes, he did mention the part I have bolded in his post but I couldn't see it in the actual replay of the Tauroctony. Somehow, a serpent represents Dorne to me but that would be a Martell connection that does not really fit. Oh and how can we forget the scorpion at the bull's loins? Scorpion also brings Dorne to my mind, but I don't see it in the reenactment. Perhaps, it's a nod to those readers who know of the tauroctony of the Dorne connection? 

Okay so let's assume you are right. Why is he sacrificing him? To change the seasons? Or for a better harvest? Why at that point in the story? Why not later?  What's your theory on this? One more question, your B+A=J premise, does it change your theory with regard to Jon being LB?

Btw, I loved all the stuff he said about the Corn King. Really brilliant stuff!

[M_Tootles]

Just now, Aryya Stark said:

I am really looking forward to reading it. I couldn't stop thinking about the theory and want to go back and reread it again because I am sure I missed a lot on my first reading. 

Yes, he did mention the part I have bolded in his post but I couldn't see it in the actual replay of the Tauroctony. Somehow, a serpent represents Dorne to me but that would be a Martell connection that does not really fit. Oh and how can we forget the scorpion at the bull's loins? Scorpion also brings Dorne to my mind, but I don't see it in the reenactment. Perhaps, it's a nod to those readers who know of the tauroctony of the Dorne connection? 

Okay so let's assume you are right. Why is he sacrificing him? To change the seasons? Or for a better harvest? Why at that point in the story? Why not later?  What's your theory on this? One more question, your B+A=J premise, does it change your theory with regard to Jon being LB?

Btw, I loved all the stuff he said about the Corn King. Really brilliant stuff!

oh yikes, i don't think it's ANYTHING like that literal. The point is that Jon is a Lightbringer, and so is Mithras, so the Mithras allusions are a clue that he's Lightbringer. I see the elements as pastiched about more than anything. Lots of the stuff surely isn't present/doesn't fit, but since we know GRRM is VERY familiar with this stuff, and he chooses to have a thing called Lightbringer...

[Aryya Stark]

5 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

oh yikes, i don't think it's ANYTHING like that literal. The point is that Jon is a Lightbringer, and so is Mithras, so the Mithras allusions are a clue that he's Lightbringer. I see the elements as pastiched about more than anything. Lots of the stuff surely isn't present/doesn't fit, but since we know GRRM is VERY familiar with this stuff, and he chooses to have a thing called Lightbringer...

lol ok. Sorry to startle you . 

So when are you going to post your theory? I really want to see where you are going with all of this. You got me hooked on this theory and it has left me with more questions. 

 

[gregg22]

9 hours ago, lujo said:

By Jon Sow but with what?

 

"Longclaw", which, (just like Blackfyre) happens to be the only other known "Hand & a Half" or "Bastard" Valyrian steel sword in the novels.

Blackfyre is currently missing, and I am in the camp of not believing the Mormonts had a Valyrian steel sword and gave it willy-nilly to a bastard steward in the nights watch.

[Seams]

duplicate deleted

[Seams]

23 hours ago, gregg22 said:

"Longclaw", which, (just like Blackfyre) happens to be the only other known "Hand & a Half" or "Bastard" Valyrian steel sword in the novels.

Blackfyre is currently missing, and I am in the camp of not believing the Mormonts had a Valyrian steel sword and gave it willy-nilly to a bastard steward in the nights watch.

This is an interesting point, I think. I've just read the blog post by @M_Tootles, discussing that Faceless Men admit to using glamors, "surgery," and mind tricks (people see what they expect to see) but that they probably also use skinchanging to disguise themselves using someone else's face or identity. He then points out:

Quote

The air around Stannis’s sword “Lightbringer” is said to “shimmer".

(COK Cat III, SOS Dav IV) And Aemon tells Sam,

The sword is wrong, she has to know that… light without heat… an empty glamor… (FFC Sam IV)

Rippling, shimmering… the whiff of a glamor is strong, and grows stronger the more we sniff around.

...[Stannis's sword] Lightbringer being one of the only confirmed glamors in the text ...

I have the feeling that some of these northern warriors - Qhorin and Jeor Mormont and maybe Mance Rayder - have been waiting for a prophesied young NW brother with the "Blood of the First Men" to come along. I know people have written in this forum that the Others were testing Ser Waymar Royce in that first scene, to see whether he was the person they sought, but maybe Mormont let Ser Waymar go on that first ranging mission because he had also been looking for the right guy to turn up and he wanted to see if Royce was the one. Once the guy was identified - by killing a wight and/or by living up to other aspects of the prophecy - a special sword was to be given to him.

When he gave Long Claw to Jon, Mormont had made some superficial changes to the pommel of the sword essentially skinchanging the sword from a bear to a wolf, but without changing its name. It would not surprise me at all if the bear and the wolf had both been skinchanges from an earlier identity as Blackfyre.

The "skinchanged" sword is my first thought in response to this discussion, but I have two more thoughts:

1) This line of thinking about the Targaryen sword Blackfyre plus the mystery of Qhorin's origins might help to connect the dots with a Westeros history mystery that has been nagging at me. I think Good Queen Alysanne had a bastard child during one of her "breaks" from her marriage with King Jaehaerys I. (See The World of Ice and Fire book for more details.) She built the tower known as the Queenscrown and maybe entrusted the child to someone (the Night's Watch??) to be raised there so she could secretly visit by dragon flight whenever she got a chance. Because of this secret (Promise me, Ned) love child in the north, she always had a soft spot in her heart for the north and arranged for "The Gift" (land grant) to the Night's Watch and other nice investments in the region.

Figuring out who fathered the child and where the child went when it grew up might help to clarify the mysterious northern plot that this thread seems to be sorting out. Did the child marry into a northern family such as the Starks or Mormonts? I'm leaning Mormont. Maybe the secret royal connection would explain why the Starks gave Bear Island to the Mormonts. (This might also make Ser Jorah a distant cousin of Dany!)

The scenes that play out at the Queens Crown tower might provide clues. Bran, Jojen and Meera spend the night in the tower with the help of Hodor, who pushes them up through the murder hole in the first floor. I believe this is the first location Bran skinchanges into Hodor, which he does to keep him quiet when he is scared of the storm raging around them AND with Jon and the wildlings playing out their scene outside. The wildlings order Jon to kill a man who has wandered too close to their raiding party. Jon refuses, Bran warging the direwolf Summer saves Jon from the wildlings, Ygritte kills the mysterious man anyway, and Jon makes his escape back to the Night's Watch, taking a wound in the leg as he flees.

Who was that mysterious man killed by Ygritte? GRRM doesn't throw in details like that for no reason. Is the passage through the Queens Crown murder hole symbolic and significant? Maybe it's the reemergence that is important - Bran and his friends are "reborn" from Alysanne's tower. Since it is a Queen's Crown, is the night part of Meera's story, as the only girl to spend the night under the gold crown? If Meera is the one who descended from Alysanne, will the sword Dark Sister come to her as Jon has possession of the (skinchanged) sword Blackfyre?

2) In the first direwolf reread, we considered the possiblity that, when a direwolf bites someone, the direwolf's person may take on some of the qualities of the person bitten. Nymeria bit Joffrey. Summer tore the throat out of the catspaw (I'm not sure what that means for Bran, yet). Shaggydog bit one of the Walders and also Maester Luwin. Grey Wind bit off two of Great Jon Umber's fingers and tore the arm off a Lannister bannerman at the Battle of the Whispering Wood. Ghost bit Qhorin Halfhand on the leg as Jon killed him. Does this mean that Jon takes on some of Qhorin's qualities? Does that mean that Jon becomes a better ranger or, as discussed earlier, does it allow him to blend in with the Free Folk (who Qhorin secretly supported) more effectively?

 

Sorry I can't seem to fix the quote box. It should end after "...confirmed glamors in the text."

[M_Tootles]

On 7/11/2016 at 5:36 AM, Aryya Stark said:

lol ok. Sorry to startle you . 

So when are you going to post your theory? I really want to see where you are going with all of this. You got me hooked on this theory and it has left me with more questions. 

I just printed out a draft of what I have so far, for structural editing purposes. It's 72 pages. So... hopefully in the next two weeks???

[M_Tootles]

On 7/11/2016 at 0:09 AM, lujo said:

By Jon Sow but with what?

Tootles, why so obsessed with Qhorin = Gerold. I can possibly even get behind Oswel Kettleblack being Oswel Whent, but Gerold Hightower had better places to go than the wall, and he was also old AF. It's just a huuuuuuuge stretch.

Also I read a bunch of your tinfoil, and the dornish stuff in large parts feels weirdly sensible. How come you haven't pegged Shae as Dornish? If you haven't?

I say this very seriously: the Dornish stuff *I DID NOT SEE COMING* when I decided to figure out who the fuck the Elder Brother is (which is the reason it's structured as it is -- the reveals are in the order I figured shit out, MOSTLY, save for Tyrion being a chimera and part-Martell). So I am *right there with you* in how VERY "weirdly sensible" it feels. I basically have total confidence in it. Figuring that shit out didn't feel like forcing stuff, it felt like watching a game of tetris where all the pieces were already perfectly aligned for you.

Q=G obsession? Because it's true and really neat. NOT old as fuck. I thought of a fantastic easy for anyone to understand counterpoint to the old AF argument the other day.

Normally I go into big things about the general *principle* that there might be a wide birth order, and that if the ruling parent's spouse dies, they're likely to remarry a younger woman and keep on producing babies, leading to legit offspring that are very wide apart, like how there are Frey brothers who are 70 years from one another.

But then it hit me: Rhaegar, b.259. Daenerys, b.284. 25 years and no one bats an eyelash.

(The irony for me is that *they should*, because *they're not* siblings, but that's beside the point.)

"fierce old Gerold Hightower" is one of two things.

1. "old' from the perspective of fresh-faced 20 year old Ned. He's 45-50. That's "old" to ToJ Ned.

2. "old" from the perspective of... NED NOW, who *knows* he lived and *knows* he's old and fierce as Qhorin Halfhand.

cheers!

[M_Tootles]

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

This is an interesting point, I think. I've just read the blog post by @M_Tootles, discussing that Faceless Men admit to using glamors, "surgery," and mind tricks (people see what they expect to see) but that they probably also use skinchanging to disguise themselves using someone else's face or identity.

Small clarifications, it's mummery/disguise, glamors, "surgery" and then human bran-in-hodor style skinchanging. "Mind tricks" as you call them apply across the board.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

I have the feeling that some of these northern warriors - Qhorin and Jeor Mormont and maybe Mance Rayder - have been waiting for a prophesied young NW brother with the "Blood of the First Men" to come along.

This is neat as fuck. In the middle of tinfoil I've come across some interesting lines about blood I think are really signficant but which most people don't quote when they're talking about the cool stuff with craster's black blood and that kinda stuff. I'm REALLY starting to think Jon's going to ape the roll of Bran the Builder as the Night King and LEAD the White Walkers, who ARE NOT "evil", against some unknown other force, and I think this is somewhat prophesized. They hate every *creature* with "hot blood in its veins," but I don't think "hot blood" means what he think it means. Not entirely, anyway. I'm toying with the dragons/targs as their nemeses, obvs, but with the key thing being that there's a yet unseen Cthuloid 3rd party coming (Church of Starry Wisdom/Hightowers/Citadel-related?) that they're gonna need to figure their shit out to deal with. Plays into the stuff with Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and the Battle Isle/Last Battle and such. (Check out my Gemstone Emperors piece here, it's got the roots of where my thinking is headed https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/478o1d/spoilers_everything_the_gemstone_emperors_of_the/)

Anyway, sorry, digression, but ...

 

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

When he gave Long Claw to Jon, Mormont had made some superficial changes to the pommel of the sword essentially skinchanging the sword from a bear to a wolf, but without changing its name. It would not surprise me at all if the bear and the wolf had both been skinchanges from an earlier identity as Blackfyre.

This is great. I gotta think about this.

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

The "skinchanged" sword is my first thought in response to this discussion, but I have two more thoughts:

1) This line of thinking about the Targaryen sword Blackfyre plus the mystery of Qhorin's origins might help to connect the dots with a Westeros history mystery that has been nagging at me. I think Good Queen Alysanne had a bastard child during one of her "breaks" from her marriage with King Jaehaerys I.

You just said it, and as soon as I read it I KNEW you were right. Makes too much sense. I gotta think Arya Fint's the link.

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

The scenes that play out at the Queens Crown tower might provide clues.

Completely agree these are overdetermined and pulsing with possibility. The ID of that guy is absolutely important, no way it's not, not given what I've come to think about how little fluff/world-building/"just stuff" there actually is, contrary to widespread opinion. Too many people don't understand the way intentional authored fiction, especially myteries, are written. They think it's like watching a D&D campaign play out or something.

On 7/12/2016 at 9:58 AM, Seams said:

If Meera is the one who descended from Alysanne, will the sword Dark Sister come to her as Jon has possession of the (skinchanged) sword Blackfyre?

Ooooh, via her grandmother, Jenny of Oldstones maybe? Hmmm...

 

[lujo]

1 hour ago, M_Tootles said:

So I am *right there with you* in how VERY "weirdly sensible" it feels. I basically have total confidence in it. Figuring that shit out didn't feel like forcing stuff, it felt like watching a game of tetris where all the pieces were already perfectly aligned for you.

I think that while you can be quite observant you also have way too much fun tinfoiling and take things too far. While it's clear that Martin writes in ways which absolutely necessitate readings deeper than the surface ones (to the point that being an outspoken  "literalist" would be so stupid as to defeat the point of being an outspoken anything), throwing too many theories out there might not be the best idea. For example, the High Septon being Balon and a bunch of the faceless men stuff is just ridiculous (not because I wouldn't entertain the idea, but because there really isn't solid ground for it). Here's a good hint for you - "facestealing" is a very dangerous narrative device, and stories which allow for it are generally not worth bothering with because anyone could realistically be anyone. I think they're there to confuse people rather than be a serious part of any solution to anything. And you do tend to have quite a bit of wishful thinking in your (admittedly fun) theories. I have a feeling there's a bunch of truth in them, but it's hard to dig out of the stretched stuff.
 

Spoiler

I'm saying this because the Martel stuff hinges a lot on physical descriptions of people. I'm not sure that one should draw as many conclusions from them. I've had Marwyn pegged for Martel a long time ago, but I wouldn't be as sure of everything. On the other hand, Lewyn Martel was supposedly killed by Lyn Corbray, and Lyn Corbray seems to be bribeable, a liar and also gay and we don't know who Lewyn's Paramour was. But we do know there's a certain Whoresbane Umber who's whore isn't discussed because it was male (although that's from ADWD, and Lyn's story is from AFFC). Can't remember if you'e taken this into account, but things like this aren't such a stretch, while you try to grab something and explain everything with it.

Btw I'm not sure if you've taken a look at Preston Jacobs' "Riverlands of the Dragon" or "For the Dragon" videos. There seems to have been setup for a possibly abandoned plot where the whole initial testimony which leads to Dondarrion and the gang being sent out to arrest Gregor was a ruse. Now, the resto of Jacobs speculation and conjecture is just there for one's amusement, but he did spot that plot and there was strong settup for a Darry conspiracy, probably all the way back from the original "design document" in which ASOIAF was meant to be a trilogy and Danny was supposed to return in book 2. One thing IS interesting in that there seems to be unindentified or unindentifiable dudes in the Brotherhood without banners at commanding positions. This includes Lem Lemoncloak who Jacobs has pegged for Rhaegar's squire.

Now I have to ask: Is Jonothor Darry actually dead?
1) I'd bet Dayne is,
2) I'd bet Hightower at least WAS, (although I'll be damned if he was qhorin halfhand) 
3) Whent likely is (and might even be Kettleblack since in every appearance he seems to be scolding oathbreakers, "pot calling the kettle black" whold be what he'd saddle himself with afterwards. It's still tinfoil to me, but I'll chuckle along.),
4) Selmy certainly is (And he tells danny in ADWD that once he ran he thought he should have done that right away instead of accepting a pardon, which means that was an option)
5) Jaime obviously is (and could end up being the truest knight of them all by the end if he isn't allready)
6) Lewyn could be the EB
7) Which leaves Jon Darry - and there seems to be a huuuuuuuge Darry connection to the brotherhood without banners, and to hear the Elder Brother tell it there seems to be a feud between Darry and Frey families.

I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about Hightower and Whent yet, but the man certainly left some serious options open for the entire Mad Aerys Kingsguard being alive. 

 

[M_Tootles]

4 minutes ago, lujo said:

STUFF

  Hide contents

 

 

Obviously agree to disagree. I will be drop-to-the-floor stunned if I'm wrong re: faceless man = high septon. Likewise with Lewyn: the fits with the seemingly throwaway Aerys II stuff in TWOIAF are just so good.

Re: the PJ thing, I agreed the initial catch about a pro-Targ riverlands conspiracy was fascinating but then it was like WTF?

[lujo]

Damn, I wrote that wrong, the question was supposed to be is Jon Darry actually ALIVE, not dead. Preston never entertained the thought that the kingsguard at the TOJ are alive, or that Lewyn might be, and I didn't entertain the thought that Lewyn might be until your stuff did make me change my mind about that. But then I thought - the darry connection with the BWB would be THE place for Jon Darry to crop up if he wasn't killed.

The PJ thing is about the stuff he did get right, screw the wtf bits. There's a seemingly abandoned darry vs. frey plotline which I later found to have been made for the original design with dany returning to westeros in book 2. This has been replaced with lady stoneheart (darry's would have supposedly been hanging freys for the trident, not for the red wedding). But if EB is Lewyn, the maybe this wasn't actually abandoned?

As for Lewyn - hell, I wouldn't even need the EB stuff, just reading the AFFC chapter whenre LF talks folks into letting him be lord protector for a year, which gives a good look at his supposed killer, is quite enough to be very suspicious of anything Lyn Corbray claims to have done.

Ever hear anyone speculate about Jon Darry being alive?

What I'm trying to figure out is - it's clear as day that the KG were meant to be alive, but was that fully abandoned or not?

[Seams]

1 hour ago, lujo said:

Damn, I wrote that wrong, the question was supposed to be is Jon Darry actually ALIVE, not dead. Preston never entertained the thought that the kingsguard at the TOJ are alive....
...
What I'm trying to figure out is - it's clear as day that the KG were meant to be alive, but was that fully abandoned or not?

Maybe you are right about the "living" members of the King's Guard and m_tootles is right about Gerold Hightower = Qhorin Halfhand - for the same reason.

Thoros of Myr has no clue why he is able to revive people who are dead - maybe the old King's Guard guys have access to the same kind of magic gem (sword, cloak, brooch, or whatever) that he has. (My guess: we are told that he was first over the walls at the offensive against Pyke. As Euron has taught us, the Ironborn pick up tons of loot in their travels, some of which may have powers unknown to them. I think Thoros picked up some book or beanie baby or porcelain figurine or seashell that is in his pocket and he doesn't realize that it is giving him this special power.)

If Qhorin KNEW that he could come back to life, that would explain why he was so quick to order Jon Snow to kill him. The key hint may be in his breakfast of hard-boiled eggs with Jeor Mormont (Clash 43, Jon V). When you see three hard-boiled eggs, they seem to be a reference to death, something magical and mysterious that happens in between, and rebirth. (This symbolism comes, largely, from the three-headed god, Trios, that is part of the tour the Sailor's Wife gives to Arya in Braavos.) So it's significant that Qhorin and the Lord Commander eat hard-boiled eggs before Qhorin taps Jon Snow - with his gods and his wolf - to go ranging.

Now that I think of it, the multiple rebirths might explain why Dolorous Edd is preparing a huge pot filled with hard-boiled eggs before Qhorin eats an egg. Qhorin uses more than one rebirth. Edd is also preparing the eggs as if they were hot, spiced wine (adding spices, stirring them) and not like hard-boiled eggs (which sit in hot water until you pour off the water - no spices, no stirring).

I think Ser Mandon Moore is one of the "revived" King's Guard from the TOJ. His attempt to kill Tyrion (if that's what it was - maybe he was aiming for Podrick) was not ordered by Cersei, I suspect, but was part of the long-term mission that these hidden King's Guard members are still trying to fulfill from their days with the Targaryens. For some reason, Jon Arryn helped to create a cover story for him and put him back in the King's Guard after Robert took the Throne.

[Aryya Stark]

9 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

I just printed out a draft of what I have so far, for structural editing purposes. It's 72 pages. So... hopefully in the next two weeks???

Looking forward to it. I enjoy reading your thoughts even if I don't absolutely agree, at least it gives a lot of food for thought.

8 hours ago, lujo said:

I think that while you can be quite observant you also have way too much fun tinfoiling and take things too far. While it's clear that Martin writes in ways which absolutely necessitate readings deeper than the surface ones (to the point that being an outspoken  "literalist" would be so stupid as to defeat the point of being an outspoken anything), throwing too many theories out there might not be the best idea.

I agree, but still it's fun to read.

7 hours ago, lujo said:

Damn, I wrote that wrong, the question was supposed to be is Jon Darry actually ALIVE, not dead. Preston never entertained the thought that the kingsguard at the TOJ are alive, or that Lewyn might be, and I didn't entertain the thought that Lewyn might be until your stuff did make me change my mind about that. But then I thought - the darry connection with the BWB would be THE place for Jon Darry to crop up if he wasn't killed.

The PJ thing is about the stuff he did get right, screw the wtf bits. There's a seemingly abandoned darry vs. frey plotline which I later found to have been made for the original design with dany returning to westeros in book 2. This has been replaced with lady stoneheart (darry's would have supposedly been hanging freys for the trident, not for the red wedding). But if EB is Lewyn, the maybe this wasn't actually abandoned?

As for Lewyn - hell, I wouldn't even need the EB stuff, just reading the AFFC chapter whenre LF talks folks into letting him be lord protector for a year, which gives a good look at his supposed killer, is quite enough to be very suspicious of anything Lyn Corbray claims to have done.

Ever hear anyone speculate about Jon Darry being alive?

What I'm trying to figure out is - it's clear as day that the KG were meant to be alive, but was that fully abandoned or not?

I suspect most of the KG, if not all of them are alive. GRRM focuses a lot on describing people, their hair color, their eye color, etc... however, we do not have a decent description of any of Aerys' KG. We have descriptions of their characters, their fighting prowess, etc. but nothing of their physical appearance. So they can really pose as anyone pretending to be dead. I liked the premise that Prince Lewyn=EB.

6 hours ago, Seams said:

If Qhorin KNEW that he could come back to life, that would explain why he was so quick to order Jon Snow to kill him. The key hint may be in his breakfast of hard-boiled eggs with Jeor Mormont (Clash 43, Jon V). When you see three hard-boiled eggs, they seem to be a reference to death, something magical and mysterious that happens in between, and rebirth. (This symbolism comes, largely, from the three-headed god, Trios, that is part of the tour the Sailor's Wife gives to Arya in Braavos.) So it's significant that Qhorin and the Lord Commander eat hard-boiled eggs before Qhorin taps Jon Snow - with his gods and his wolf - to go ranging.

Very interesting, I will look into this. Btw, I am re-reading aGoT and looking for maimed, crippled hands/loss of fingers. First person in the prologue is Gared who lost two ears to frostbite, three toes and the little finger on his left hand.