Does Qhorin = Qhoran?

[Aryya Stark]

I posted this on another thread but it seems I posted it smack in the middle of an argument so I thought I would make a thread of it instead. Below is what I posted:

So I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I was wondering if anyone else made this connection:

My sister is rereading the books and in ADwD she came upon the Tyrion chapter, where he is traveling by ship with Penny and Mormont. Tyron has a conversation with Moqorro about the name of the ship:

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My friend? When did that happen, I wonder? "Did you see how long it will take us to reach Meereen?

"You are eager to behold the world's deliverer?"

Yes and no. The world's deliverer may snick off my head or give me to her dragons as a savory. "Not me," said Tyrion "For me, it is all about the olives. Though I fear I may grow old and die before I taste one. I could dog-paddle faster than we're sailing. Tell me, was Selaesori Qhoran a triarch or a turtle?

The red priest chuckled. "Neither. Qhoran is... not a ruler, but one who serves and counsels such, and helps conducts business. You of Westeros might say steward or magister".

King's Hand? That amused him. "And selaesori?"

Moqorro touched his nose. "Imbued with a pleasant aroma. Fragrant, would you say? Flowery?"

"So Selaesori Qhoran means Stinky Steward, more or less?

"Fragrant steward, rather."

Tyrion gave a crooked grin. "I believe I will stay with Stinky. But I do thank you for the lesson."

My sister pointed out that Qhoran is the Valyrian name for King's Hand and perhaps Qhorin is a mispronunciation of Qhoran by the Westerosi. I believe it was Qyburn who corrected Cersie's mispronunciation of "Maggy the Frog"...Maggy actually being Maegi.

Sorry if this has been discussed before I just thought it would be interesting if Qhorin isn't actually Qhorin's name but his title, "Hand of the King".

It's also ironic that Qhorin is referred to as the "Half-Hand" just like the "Half-Maester" traveling with Young Griff.

Any ideas/theories of what this all might mean?

[CJ McLannister]

It means that maybe Qhorin's parents gave him a name that used to mean steward?  

[Aryya Stark]

3 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

It means that maybe Qhorin's parents gave him a name that used to mean steward?  

I don't think Qhorin was his name, rather his title. 

[Michael Mertyns]

10 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

I don't think Qhorin was his name, rather his title. 

He is known for his skills as a ranger. If he had any such a title, it seems he left that part of his life when he came to the Wall

[Aryya Stark]

6 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

He is known for his skills as a ranger. If he had any such a title, it seems he left that part of his life when he came to the Wall

But who do you think he really was? If Qhorin wasn't his real name then what was it? I am just curious about his identity.

[Michael Mertyns]

2 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

But who do you think he really was? If Qhorin wasn't his real name then what was it? I am just curious about his identity.

I personally think that Qhorin is his real name. I'm just acknowledging that we don't know anything about what he did before coming the the Wall. 

[Raisin' Bran]

There are many naming conventions in the real world and in ASOIAF. A name can have a meaning behind it while still just being a name, like Christopher (bringer of Christ).

There are also variations on the spelling and pronunciation. I have seen many people here point out that Edric Dayne was named after Eddard Stark, both being nicknamed "Ned". I am inclined to agree with that.

I think that you bring up an interesting point about Qhorin and his part in Jon's story arc (in that he taught Jon a lot about his origins, oaths, and responsibilities). But I think that Qhorin was simply named Qhorin and not a corrupted pronunciation of Qhoran. His name is a reminder that he is to serve and teach.

[aryagonnakill#2]

His name is Qhorin, he is a random lowborn NWmen.

[Seams]

I've shared the "lost fingers" theory elsewhere in the forum but maybe it's relevant to share it again here.

In the first direwolves reread ("Six Pups in the Snow") we were puzzling out what it meant that Great Jon Umber became more loyal to Robb after Grey Wind bit off two of his fingers. We realized that Ser Davos Seaworth also became more loyal to Stannis after Stannis punished him for smuggling by having the tips of his fingers cut off.

The pattern seems to be that the person whose fingers are taken by a king will become the "right hand" of that king.

I wondered how this applied to Qhorin Halfhand, who sacrificed his life so that Jon could take on the important mission of infiltrating the wildlings. Qhorin had lost half of his hand in combat with the wildlings, not with Jon, though. My best guess for matching this to the pattern is that Qhorin is loyal to Jon as Jon "becomes" a wildling; in fact, Qhorin makes this possible through sacrificing himself. Jon never loses the qualities he gains from his undercover mission, and his experience and the relationships he builds makes it possible for him to be a better leader when he returns to the Night's Watch.

You could make a case that Jon Snow himself becomes more loyal to Jeor Mormont and the Night's Watch after his hand is burned while fighting the White Walker.

I don't know whether we will discover the Catelyn is more loyal to Bran or to whoever sent the catspaw with the knife to murder Bran. She and Jon didn't lose fingers, but they did suffer hand injuries defending someone important. Maybe the pattern doesn't apply.

Based on the "missing fingers" pattern, however, I think Moqorro will be loyal to Tyrion. Moqorro has five acolytes who Tyrion nicknames the Five Fingers. During one of the storms, two of the "fingers" are blown out to sea as they try to grapple with the ropes on a loose sail. (The sail may represent a dragon or mummer's dragon as it flies into the night?) So Moqorro has lost a couple of fingers while Tyrion watches. I may be wrong, but I think we will see Moqorro do his best to serve Tyrion's interests now, even though it may appear that he is serving others.

I think the symbolism of the Selaesori Qhoran is exceedingly complex. The figurehead of the ship resembles Tywin Lannister, I think, and a menacing Tywin (as well as a menacing Penny) appears in Tyrion's dreams while he is on board. Tywin was also a Hand of the King, of course, and there are references to smell and shit (associated with Tywin's death and his corpse after death). Tyrion's games of cyvasse - who he plays, which games he wins, how his opponents die during the storm - are probably significant. The fact that Tyrion finally rides the pig, essentially becoming a knight, on board the ship. The three books he reads while on the ship. The nasty cook who may be part of the larger motif around cooks and possibly butchers. The "egg hatching" imagery of Tyrion being taken out of his armor with Penny's help and of the cracking of the hull of the ship. (Tyrion already hatched from a wine barrel when he arrived in Essos. Why does he keep hatching? Is he a dragon now?) The final disposition of the ship, with the broken mast compared to a dwarf (I think - I don't have the text handy) and to an arrow shot into someone's belly (like Tyrion's parting shot for Tywin). The figurehead is broken and loses the scrolls that were in its hands after the second storm. 

I realize a good bit of this isn't directly related to your Qhorin / Qhoran question, but working out the "stinky steward" symbolism might get you to your answer.

I don't think Qhorin Halfhand's name was intended to be a formal title, or an allusion to some past service at the royal court that everyone has forgotten. I think it is intended as a signal from the author to the reader that this character is part of the "missing fingers" motif of loyal right-hand men serving a leader.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'd sooner think Qhoran would be Varys, who actually is a King's counselor,  and usually smells flowery too

[Aryya Stark]

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've shared the "lost fingers" theory elsewhere in the forum but maybe it's relevant to share it again here.

In the first direwolves reread ("Six Pups in the Snow") we were puzzling out what it meant that Great Jon Umber became more loyal to Robb after Grey Wind bit off two of his fingers. We realized that Ser Davos Seaworth also became more loyal to Stannis after Stannis punished him for smuggling by having the tips of his fingers cut off.

 

This is very interesting, I love the connection.

 

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I wondered how this applied to Qhorin Halfhand, who sacrificed his life so that Jon could take on the important mission of infiltrating the wildlings. Qhorin had lost half of his hand in combat with the wildlings, not with Jon, though. My best guess for matching this to the pattern is that Qhorin is loyal to Jon as Jon "becomes" a wildling; in fact, Qhorin makes this possible through sacrificing himself. Jon never loses the qualities he gains from his undercover mission, and his experience and the relationships he builds makes it possible for him to be a better leader when he returns to the Night's Watch.

According to your pattern wouldn't Qhorin become loyal to the wildlings since he lost his fingers to them? I know you are trying to make it fit the pattern but this part doesn't really mesh with the rest. He is becoming loyal to Jon to help him become a wildling to betray the wildlings? Perhaps you can expand on this a bit further because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

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I don't know whether we will discover the Catelyn is more loyal to Bran or to whoever sent the catspaw with the knife to murder Bran. She and Jon didn't lose fingers, but they did suffer hand injuries defending someone important. Maybe the pattern doesn't apply.

IIRC, the person who sent the catspaw to murder Bran was Joffrey who is dead now. How about the loss of an entire hand? Like Jaime's? Do you have a theory about how he fits in? Maybe the pattern only applies to loss of fingers?

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Based on the "missing fingers" pattern, however, I think Moqorro will be loyal to Tyrion. Moqorro has five acolytes who Tyrion nicknames the Five Fingers. During one of the storms, two of the "fingers" are blown out to sea as they try to grapple with the ropes on a loose sail. (The sail may represent a dragon or mummer's dragon as it flies into the night?) So Moqorro has lost a couple of fingers while Tyrion watches. I may be wrong, but I think we will see Moqorro do his best to serve Tyrion's interests now, even though it may appear that he is serving others.

This is very interesting...can this pattern also somehow be applied to LF? I know he hasn't lost the Fingers but it seems to me there is something more to all this finger business.

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I think the symbolism of the Selaesori Qhoran is exceedingly complex. The figurehead of the ship resembles Tywin Lannister, I think, and a menacing Tywin (as well as a menacing Penny) appears in Tyrion's dreams while he is on board. Tywin was also a Hand of the King, of course, and there are references to smell and shit (associated with Tywin's death and his corpse after death). Tyrion's games of cyvasse - who he plays, which games he wins, how his opponents die during the storm - are probably significant. The fact that Tyrion finally rides the pig, essentially becoming a knight, on board the ship. The three books he reads while on the ship. The nasty cook who may be part of the larger motif around cooks and possibly butchers. The "egg hatching" imagery of Tyrion being taken out of his armor with Penny's help and of the cracking of the hull of the ship. (Tyrion already hatched from a wine barrel when he arrived in Essos. Why does he keep hatching? Is he a dragon now?) The final disposition of the ship, with the broken mast compared to a dwarf (I think - I don't have the text handy) and to an arrow shot into someone's belly (like Tyrion's parting shot for Tywin). The figurehead is broken and loses the scrolls that were in its hands after the second storm. 

I really enjoyed reading this and all the symbolism especially the egg hatching imagery. I would love it if you could expand a little more on all the symbolism which seems to have completely escaped me. 

 

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I don't think Qhorin Halfhand's name was intended to be a formal title, or an allusion to some past service at the royal court that everyone has forgotten. I think it is intended as a signal from the author to the reader that this character is part of the "missing fingers" motif of loyal right-hand men serving a leader.

I don't have a problem with being wrong about the Qhorin/Qhoran. It's just that I find him to be such an enigmatic person, I just have a gut feeling there is more to him. I could buy what you are saying if you can make him fit the pattern.

[Aryya Stark]

2 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

There are many naming conventions in the real world and in ASOIAF. A name can have a meaning behind it while still just being a name, like Christopher (bringer of Christ).

There are also variations on the spelling and pronunciation. I have seen many people here point out that Edric Dayne was named after Eddard Stark, both being nicknamed "Ned". I am inclined to agree with that.

I think that you bring up an interesting point about Qhorin and his part in Jon's story arc (in that he taught Jon a lot about his origins, oaths, and responsibilities). But I think that Qhorin was simply named Qhorin and not a corrupted pronunciation of Qhoran. His name is a reminder that he is to serve and teach.

I suppose that is possible, and I might be reading too much into his name but don't you get the feeling that his story was not complete? He seemed to single Jon out, IIRC even Mormont was surprised.

[Aryya Stark]

3 hours ago, Michael Mertyns said:

I personally think that Qhorin is his real name. I'm just acknowledging that we don't know anything about what he did before coming the the Wall. 

Fair enough.

[StarkofWinterfell]

3 hours ago, Aryya Stark said:

But who do you think he really was? If Qhorin wasn't his real name then what was it? I am just curious about his identity.

He was actually Rhaegar. It is known.

But seriously how do you think we'd know this when there is no material on it?

[Julia H.]

25 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

According to your pattern wouldn't Qhorin become loyal to the wildlings since he lost his fingers to them? I know you are trying to make it fit the pattern but this part doesn't really mesh with the rest. He is becoming loyal to Jon to help him become a wildling to betray the wildlings? Perhaps you can expand on this a bit further because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Qhorin seems to at least respect the wildlings even though he fights them. More importantly, I think he does them a great service when he sends Jon Snow - their future leader - to them. Jon will eventually recognize the wildlings as part of "the realms of men" and he will give them the best chance to integrate into the Seven Kingdoms. In this sense Qhorin helps shape the future of the wildlings in an important way.

[lujo]

Playing along with the fingers stuff and peole becoming loyal upon losing them, could it be that Qhorin became loyal to Mance? And brought Jon to him?

Just tossing it out there...

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Aryya Stark said:

According to your pattern wouldn't Qhorin become loyal to the wildlings since he lost his fingers to them? I know you are trying to make it fit the pattern but this part doesn't really mesh with the rest. He is becoming loyal to Jon to help him become a wildling to betray the wildlings? Perhaps you can expand on this a bit further because it doesn't make sense to me.

IIRC, the person who sent the catspaw to murder Bran was Joffrey who is dead now. How about the loss of an entire hand? Like Jaime's? Do you have a theory about how he fits in? Maybe the pattern only applies to loss of fingers?

This is very interesting...can this pattern also somehow be applied to LF? I know he hasn't lost the Fingers but it seems to me there is something more to all this finger business.

I really enjoyed reading this and all the symbolism especially the egg hatching imagery. I would love it if you could expand a little more on all the symbolism which seems to have completely escaped me. 

I don't have a problem with being wrong about the Qhorin/Qhoran. It's just that I find him to be such an enigmatic person, I just have a gut feeling there is more to him. I could buy what you are saying if you can make him fit the pattern.

Yeah, the Qhorin/Jon pair is a little tricky. I guess my attempt to explain wasn't clear. Or maybe you will decide not to buy it. Jon becomes a wildling as a result of Qhorin sacrificing himself. It's one of the many, many "rebirths" in the books and, as we are told, only death can pay for life so Qhorin gave his life for Jon's rebirth. Even though Jon appears to betray the wildlings when he returns to the Night's Watch, I think it's fair to say that he is still loyal to them, in his own way. He still pines for Ygritte. He helps the wildlings to peacefully pass through the Wall and gives them a place to settle. He marries off Alice Karstark (his "sister," if you think Melisandre's "mistaken" vision might have meaning) to one of them. Jon's "pack" of trusted Night's Watch brothers grows after he returns from his undercover mission to include Leathers (a type of fabric worn by wildlings) and Satin (the fabric used to mend Mance Rayder's cloak). So, yes, Qhorin would be loyal to the wildlings, if the missing fingers theory is correct, but Jon then becomes a wildling. He is also a Night's Watch brother, but he doesn't lose the part of him that belongs to the Free Folk. (Julia H. and lujo's comments just were posted. They may have explained it better than I did.)

If you closely examine things that Qhorin says, he and Mormont are both aware that the wildlings are not really the problem for the Night's Watch and Westeros. They are more concerned about the White Walkers. I think Qhorin realizes that the Night's Watch and the Free Folk can unite against this common enemy, and that Jon is the only one who can unite them.

Tyrion and Jaime believe that Joffrey sent the catspaw to murder Bran. I do not believe it.

I also wondered about the loss of a whole hand or arm, and whether the pattern of "loyalty" (if that's the right word) follows for these kinds of amputations. Toward the end of AGoT, Theon tells about Grey Wind tearing the arm off a Lannister soldier during the Battle of the Whispering Wood. I think this disembodied Lannister arm comes back - symbolically, not literally - to kill Grey Wind and Robb at the Red Wedding. So that would not fit with the loyalty theory.

I did notice that the individual who cut off Jaime's arm was a Dothraki warrior, which has to be significant. I'm waiting to see what that might mean when Jaime comes into contact someday with, hmm, maybe a Khaleesi?

Not sure how Littlefinger fits the theory, if at all, but I'm sure his name is meaningful.

This post has some more about Tyrion's transformation on his voyages. Here are some thoughts about eggs and their possible meaning. (Most of the egg stuff is in the comment section.)

I like Qhorin and was sorry that his sole function seemed to be to guide Jon and then die. Maybe we'll find out more about his backstory, or maybe he is water under the bridge. Jon has many guides on his hero's journey who seem to be gone, of course. Ned Stark, Ygritte. There was a critical bit player named Stonesnake who guides Jon on his all-important journey to Ygritte and then disappears into the narrative. Maybe he will be seen again, but maybe he and his interesting name were needed for only one scene.

[M_Tootles]

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

I like Qhorin and was sorry that his sole function seemed to be to guide Jon and then die. Maybe we'll find out more about his backstory, or maybe he is water under the bridge. Jon has many guides on his hero's journey who seem to be gone, of course. Ned Stark, Ygritte. There was a critical bit player named Stonesnake who guides Jon on his all-important journey to Ygritte and then disappears into the narrative. Maybe he will be seen again, but maybe he and his interesting name were needed for only one scene.

Really dig both your posts in this thread.

As I said via PM after logging in and finding the other thread closed, I don't think it's an accident that GRRM chose to make the words homonyms, but I also don't think that was necessarily anticipated when he originally named Qhorin. I think it's far more likely it was a reference to Qhorin Volmark and his refusal to bend the need to Aegon the Conqueror, thus mirroring Qhorin's (Gerold's) refusal to bend the knee to Bobby B. It's interesting that we have every reason to believe it's an Ironborn name, yet there's no indication that Qhorin's Ironborn.

Re: Stonesnake, he fits right in with Q=Gerold if you get into Jon=Mithras stuff. THE 2 iconic images of Mithras have him (1) emerging from a stone wrapped with a snake and (2) sacrificing a white bull with a sword while not looking at what he's doing.

Understand: people've written HUGE texts about Jon=Mithras without ever considering Gerold=Qhorin, so when you find something like that on top of the extant evidence...

[Eggshell Joe]

If Qhorin = Qhoran, it ties in to the Mance = Rhaegar theory, which often indicates that Arthur Dayne = Qhorin (alternatively, Gerold Hightower = Qhorin, as noted above). 

It still doesn't make sense to me why Qhorin had to die the way he did to get Jon in with the wildlings, but as half-hand to the king it makes sense that he was willing to sacrifice himself for his friend, and for the cause. 

[Aryya Stark]

1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

He was actually Rhaegar. It is known.

But seriously how do you think we'd know this when there is no material on it?

Let's speculate.