Azor Ahai and/or The Prince Who Was Promised?

[dancinglion]

48 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

Dany was most definitely reborn in the Dothraki sea at the end of season 1 when she emerged with her dragons. Here is D&D discussing how she is a new person after emerging from the pyre. They also talk about how people will follow her to the ends of the earth. 

Just because it happened twice in the show, it does not negate the fact that it happened. 

Here is a HBO special discussing this season (6)  where they clearly point out that both Dany and Jon were reborn, one in fire and one in ice. 

https://youtu.be/CNF7Pg13GBY

And BTW there is no stretching of logic, the dragons are associated with the moom and the cracking and Dany herself is also associated with the moon. The symbolism and imagery are very clear. 

Not really this is what D&D are saying

First David Benioff: Dany is standing there in the pyre and she becomes the mother of dragons and the women you will follow to the ends of the world. Cuz that what those remaining followers are going to do..

All he is saying that dany become the mother of dragons. Like if the women gave birth to a child (boy). She become mother of a son. There is no change in dany herself. so no spiritual rebirth took place which change dany whole understanding and perspectives and she become different person.. she is still the same..

 

Then D.B. Weiss said: If they(dragons) survived to maturity and they grow to the size of school buses or how ever large they becomes as their mother she’ll become very different person then the frightened little girl we saw sold off to barbarian in the first episode..

 

He is comparing what dany will become when those dragons grow up towards the end of series against dany we saw in the first episode.. and the dany we will see towards the end of series will be a different person from the one we saw in episode 1… nothing to do with her rebirth from fire..

 

As for dragons. Its still a crackpot theory.. and since there are three dragons instead of one we need additional crackpot theories to make drogon the lightbringer. So as dany fandom claim dany clearly seem to be the candidate without twisting anything do not hold that much water now does it…

[MoIaF]

19 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

Not really this is what D&D are saying

First David Benioff: Dany is standing there in the pyre and she becomes the mother of dragons and the women you will follow to the ends of the world. Cuz that what those remaining followers are going to do..

All he is saying that dany become the mother of dragons. Like if the women gave birth to a child (boy). She become mother of a son. There is no change in dany herself. so no spiritual rebirth took place which change dany whole understanding and perspectives and she become different person.. she is still the same..

 

Then D.B. Weiss said: If they(dragons) survived to maturity and they grow to the size of school buses or how ever large they becomes as their mother she’ll become very different person then the frightened little girl we saw sold off to barbarian in the first episode..

 

He is comparing what dany will become when those dragons grow up towards the end of series against dany we saw in the first episode.. and the dany we will see towards the end of series will be a different person from the one we saw in episode 1… nothing to do with her rebirth from fire..

 

As for dragons. Its still a crackpot theory.. and since there are three dragons instead of one we need additional crackpot theories to make drogon the lightbringer. So as dany fandom claim dany clearly seem to be the candidate without twisting anything do not hold that much water now does it…

I know what is says, and it's clear they are talking about Dany transforming (rebirth) into a new person. Just like they said it in the second video, a rebirth. 

As for the Dragons as Lightbringer, it's not crackpot because I can actually back it up with quotes from the book. Lots and Lots of quotes. Crackpot is when you make things up without any real basis. You've been provided with AT LEAST 10 separate quotes showing the connection between the mythological story of the creation of Lughtbringer and the dragons as well as what Lightbringer can do in compression to the dragons. 

If you don't want to accept the clear possibility and probability that the dragons are Lightbringer because it violates your HEAD CANON then that's on you. There is ample proof in the books. 

[dancinglion]

1 minute ago, MoIaF said:

I know what is says, and it's clear they are talking about Dany transforming (rebirth) into a new person. Just like they said it in the second video, a rebirth. 

As for the Dragons as Lightbringer, it's not crackpot because I can actually back it up with quotes from the book. Lots and Lots of quotes. Crackpot is when you make things up without any real basis. You've been provided with AT LEAST 10 separate quotes showing the connection between the mythological story of the creation of Lughtbringer and the dragons as well as what Lightbringer can do in compression to the dragons. 

If you don't want to accept the clear possibility and probability that the dragons are Lightbringer because it violates your HEAD CANON then that's on you. There is ample proof in the books. 

no they are not. and let for argument sake say dany is reborn in fire. so if she was reborn as AA in first fire. she goes through the process of rebirth again in season 6 and become a new person again. so the person who was supposed to be AA is dead now... the theory itself doesn't hold weight.. and who in the right mind will say dany is completely transformed in fire and the person we see before and after fire are two completely different persons.. come on seriously??

as for lightbringer i think you are missing the point.. there can only be one lightbringer. and dany has three dragons not one. you need a crackpot theory to prove drogon is lightbringer. 

 

[Lurid Jester]

The thing about prophecy, at least as far as GRRM is presenting it, is that those that try to fulfill prophecy either for themselves (Rhaegar, and possibly Aegon at Summerhall) or for others ((Melisandre), or try to avoid them (Cersie) fail spectacularly. 

The other thing is that after thousands of years how much of the prophecy is accurately remembered?  Who's to say that there aren't more than one prince who was promised?  Or that Azor Ahai isn't actually a completely separate individual that, over the years, has been folded into the prince prophecy?  

Another thing is something brought up in the wheel of time series and even Harry Potter. Prophecies can have back up plans and that until the moment a certain person fully fulfill their role, or claims it's their own, they are just the potential. 

[Lurid Jester]

13 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

as for lightbringer i think you are missing the point.. there can only be one lightbringer. and dany has three dragons not one. you need a crackpot theory to prove drogon is lightbringer. 

 

Another theory is that the Nights Watch is Lightbringer.  

After all, they are the light in the darkness and the light that brings the dawn, plus they have sacrificed their wives by not being able to take any. 

Thinking that Lightbringer HAS to be a sword, an actual literal sword, means you're forgetting that prophecies can and often are symbolic.  

 

[dancinglion]

16 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Another theory is that the Nights Watch is Lightbringer.  

After all, they are the light in the darkness and the light that brings the dawn, plus they have sacrificed their wives by not being able to take any. 

Thinking that Lightbringer HAS to be a sword, an actual literal sword, means you're forgetting that prophecies can and often are symbolic.  

 

if you are calling lightbringer as an object like sword or dragon. then there can only be one. but if its a mataphor then its another story... since dany fans say dragon are lightbringer... then prophesy state one lightbringer not three. so dany dragons doesnot fit here... 

[Lurid Jester]

13 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

if you are calling lightbringer as an object like sword or dragon. then there can only be one. but if its a mataphor then its another story... since dany fans say dragon are lightbringer... then prophesy state one lightbringer not three. so dany dragons doesnot fit here... 

Again, you're being too literal and assuming Lightbringer is one object.  The dragons could very well be Dany's Lightbringer in that THEY are the weapon she wields against the darkness. 

After all, since the dragons hatched, the glass candles are now burning again.  Maybe light is just a metaphor for magic.  Maybe Westeros is seeing the end of the long night, night being a metaphor for the absence of magic which is the reverse of a popular fantasy trope where magic is fading away.  A trope GRRM might just turn around.  

So it's easy to see that the dragons (all dragons whether 3 or 300) could be considered Lightbringer.

 

[dancinglion]

15 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Again, you're being too literal and assuming Lightbringer is one object.  The dragons could very well be Dany's Lightbringer in that THEY are the weapon she wields against the darkness. 

After all, since the dragons hatched, the glass candles are now burning again.  Maybe light is just a metaphor for magic.  Maybe Westeros is seeing the end of the long night, night being a metaphor for the absence of magic which is the reverse of a popular fantasy trope where magic is fading away.  A trope GRRM might just turn around.  

Sonits easy to see that the dragons (all dragons whether 3 or 300) could be considered Lightbringer.

 

there are alot of could bes and maybes,, it does not look good for dany fans who claims that dany is clearly AA. specially considering the fact that for 6 seasons her story literally had no connection with WW what so ever.. and what you just said i have the same point that dany also doent fit the prophesy like there fan claims her to be.. you need to stretch and mold it to fit her in,..

[MoIaF]

25 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

if you are calling lightbringer as an object like sword or dragon. then there can only be one. but if its a mataphor then its another story... since dany fans say dragon are lightbringer... then prophesy state one lightbringer not three. so dany dragons doesnot fit here... 

We aren't talking about all three dragons but of one dragon, the dragon that Dany (The Prince that was Promised/AAR) is bonded to which is Drogon.

Once again please note how GRRM uses the exact language to describe what Lightbringer did to the monster and what Drogon did to the monster Kraznys.  

First, the passage that Jon read from the Jade Compedium in ADWD which Maester Aemon marked for him:

I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

Now, compare that to what Drogon did toKaznhs during the sack of Astapor:

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

The exact same language. 

[dancinglion]

12 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

We aren't talking about all three dragons but of one dragon, the dragon that Dany (The Prince that was Promised/AAR) is bonded to which is Drogon.

Once again please note how GRRM uses the exact language to describe what Lightbringer did to the monster and what Drogon did to the monster Kraznys.  

First, the passage that Jon read from the Jade Compedium in ADWD which Maester Aemon marked for him:

I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

Now, compare that to what Drogon did toKaznhs during the sack of Astapor:

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

The exact same language. 

actually opposite case can be made just as easily.. like GRRM deliberately use different text to describe same incident to tell that they are not same things.. in reality it just a coincidence.. dont you think if GRRM were doing it intentionally he would have used the same text as well.. and to call this a proof or fact is nothing more then comical... it is nothing more then a crackpot theory like i originally said..

 

[Drogonthedread]

22 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

We aren't talking about all three dragons but of one dragon, the dragon that Dany (The Prince that was Promised/AAR) is bonded to which is Drogon.

Once again please note how GRRM uses the exact language to describe what Lightbringer did to the monster and what Drogon did to the monster Kraznys.  

First, the passage that Jon read from the Jade Compedium in ADWD which Maester Aemon marked for him:

I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

Now, compare that to what Drogon did toKaznhs during the sack of Astapor:

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

The exact same language. 

As far as I can remember AAr is supposed to wake dragonS out of stone ..

And there is a thing called dragon has  three heads ..

You know one moment she is the most obvious one as you can get and another moment dany fans are stretching ..some people must make up their mind ..

If you ask me  its not worth your time and just dont bother moiaf 

[El Guapo]

35 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

there are alot of could bes and maybes,, it does not look good for dany fans who claims that dany is clearly AA. specially considering the fact that for 6 seasons her story literally had no connection with WW what so ever.. and what you just said i have the same point that dany also doent fit the prophesy like there fan claims her to be.. you need to stretch and mold it to fit her in,..

This is hilarious given the fact that Jon fans try to put forth theories like Jon will be frozen in an ice cell with the salted meats (amidst salt and smoke) or that a blue star suddenly becomes red (for bleeding star) .  You are right that some fans stretch things to fit the prophecy in but ain't the Dany fans doing it.

 

[MoIaF]

5 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

As far as I can remember AAr is supposed to wake dragonS out of stone ..

And there is a thing called dragon has  three heads ..

You know one moment she is the most obvious one as you can get and another moment dany fans are stretching ..some people must make up their mind ..

If you ask me  its not worth your time and just dont bother moiaf 

I won't bother anymore. I mean if you can't recognize that GRRM purposely used the same language to describe the destruction of two monster then there is nothing I can do about it. 

I prefer the too obvious crowd because at least they recognize all the clues even if they don't want to accept it is Dany. 

6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

This is hilarious given the fact that Jon fans try to put forth theories like Jon will be frozen in an ice cell with the salted meats or that a blue star suddenly becomes red.  You are right that some fans stretch things to fit the prophecy in but ain't the Dany fans doing it.

 

Dude! They scream that she's too literal and when you show them the symbolic nature of the clues they campaign they are too symbolic. You can't win. 

[dancinglion]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

This is hilarious given the fact that Jon fans try to put forth theories like Jon will be frozen in an ice cell with the salted meats or that a blue star suddenly becomes red.  You are right that some fans stretch things to fit the prophecy in but ain't the Dany fans doing it.

 

actually if you ask me i have already said prophesies are shit.. i dont need to mold anything. as far as story goes jon is the only one with major connection to ww story and dany has nothing to do with it so far. and that is a fact.. and out of 8 season dany has nothing to do with ww for at least 6. and to think that dany will not only have major but a lead role in a story which she had no connection to in 90% of the series is beyond hilarious...  

[Lurid Jester]

19 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

there are alot of could bes and maybes,, it does not look good for dany fans who claims that dany is clearly AA. specially considering the fact that for 6 seasons her story literally had no connection with WW what so ever.. and what you just said i have the same point that dany also doent fit the prophesy like there fan claims her to be.. you need to stretch and mold it to fit her in,..

That's because some people assume that Azor Ahai and The Prince who was Promised are the same person both in prophecy and in realization.  However, the reasons you're dismissing her for Azor Ahai are fairly threadbare.

[El Guapo]

4 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

actually if you ask me i have already said prophesies are shit.. i dont need to mold anything. as far as story goes jon is the only one with major connection to ww story and dany has nothing to do with it so far. and that is a fact.. and out of 8 season dany has nothing to do with ww for at least 6. and to think that dany will not only have major but a lead role in a story which she had no connection to in 90% of the series is beyond hilarious...  

Talk to GRRM then because this is what he has been setting up through 5 books just as he has been setting up Jon becoming king even though he has nothing to do with that story so far through 5 books.

[MoIaF]

For those who claim Dany has nothing to do with the Others, well, I'm sorry to disappoint you. She is the Fire of A Song of Ice and Fire. 

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/talk-to-al-jazeera/articles/2014/11/13/george-rr-martintalkstodavidshuster.html

George RR Martin:

Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice and Fire.”

 

[dancinglion]

18 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Talk to GRRM then because this is what he has been setting up through 5 books just as he has been setting up Jon becoming king even though he has nothing to do with that story so far through 5 books.

talk to GRRM about some dany fans crackpot theories ?? and their delusion of setting up dany as the savior which only exist in their heads?? ok if you say so  

jon is made king to lead the people against WW see the connection there. every turn of his story is connected with WW..

[El Guapo]

36 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

talk to GRRM about some dany fans crackpot theories ?? and their delusion of setting up dany as the savior which only exist in their heads?? ok if you say so  

jon is made king to lead the people against WW see the connection there. every turn of his story is connected with WW..

lol. Talk about delusions that exist in peoples heads.

[dancinglion]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

lol. Talk about delusions that exist in peoples heads.

so dany fandom is not only delusional but they are also in denial..... poor dany..