Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[Dofs]

I personally would have found it interesting if Targaryens would be black but I don't want a theme about race to overshadow other themes and in today's society it undoubtedly would have. 

[thewolfofStarfall]

 

 

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

First of all, were is it mentioned that it is a recessive trait?

 

 

 

 

AYou have already proven this using your own logic. You claim that since dark skin is a dominant gene if they Targs/Valyrians were to have dark skin, Robert would look black because of his grandma and Orys. The Targaryens have silver hair and purple eyes, yet Robert doesn't have these traits, so using own logic this would imply these genes are resssesive. If we're using the actual story for evidence, it is shown when the Targaryens married into other noble houses it was common for the common offspring to not look Valyrian. e.g. Jon Snow or Rhaenys Targaryen

And what is the point of introuducing the Targaryens as Black if youa re going to make it recessive.

Because GRRM -or writers in general for the matter- can do wha he wants and this is fantasy. Think about this: What was GRRM's point in making the Valyrians exceptionally fair skinned when he introduces them as race coming from a tropical climate? Furthermore, dark skin in of itself would not be a resssesive trait. In my mind the Valyrians appearance would work like  on "on/off switch" where the Valyrian phenotype is dark skin, silver hair, and purple eyes, however  when stronger gene is present none the aforementioned traits would become apart of an individual's appearance. This is exactly how Valyrians genes appear to work in the series. 

And how do you think a modern audience would react to Black people having to fuck their other siblings to make more black people? Do you not think some are going to read something a little insulting about that?

They wouldn't be the only black or otherwise dark skinned people. We have the Summer Isles and Dorne. There's no such thing as being "black" in this world. Just like there's no such thing as being "white" in ASIOAF either. 

Well this is getting a little stupid, being Black does exist in the real world. 

Never said it didn't, you need to improve your reading comprehension

 

The Velaryons and Celtigars have been in Westeros for 400 years, of course they have married into other Houses. Come on man, talk sense. This would be a bigger leap in logic.

The majority of the English nobility after a century had some kind of connection to William the Conqueror's faction, in three centuries of Targaryen rule there would be a large percentage of the nobility who were mixed race.

No, but they would be mixed race. And you are ignoring what I said, I did not say that the majority of the Southern Westeros nobility would be black but that they would be mixed race while the vast, vast majority of the serfdom would be white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My biggest question now.  is why would it matter if a segment of the society was mixed race? You are the only one associating it with the oppression of white people, when I have stated over and over again that this series does not have the same concept of racial classification as our society does.

 

[thewolfofStarfall]

2 hours ago, gregg22 said:

I guess my gripe was more with your title. TO ME it implies that the author has some social responsibility to make a statement about race, and he missed that opportunity. Maybe you didnt mean it that way, i dont know.

Im just worn down from every single minute detail of life being disected in the context of race. I'll move on, no offense to the discussion you want to have.

Nah I see what your saying. My title was was pretty vague, my bad.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Seems like too tumblr of an idea. Just making them black "just because" is dumb. The Valyrian look is much more mystical and they stand out from everyone else who looks rather normal by real world standards. Especially considering they come from a hot desert area (essos in general) where most other inhabitants are darker in complexion and yet the Valyrians are really really white. Makes them stand out.

Plus the uber-white people using an over-armed force to conquer the world is more familiar to the reader and thus more relatable and believable. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

13 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

My biggest question now.  is why would it matter if a segment of the society was mixed race? You are the only one associating it with the oppression of white people, when I have stated over and over again that this series does not have the same concept of racial classification as our society does.

It would not matter, but it would add a similar level of racism we have saw in our world just with the colours reversed.  That was what I was pointing out. You mentioned that making the Targaryens black would have little effect on how the story was told, it would have huge ramifications on it and change much of Westerosi aristocracy in the process.

The idea of adding black people for the sake of it and ignore that having the dominant people of Planatos, the Valyrians and their descedents in Essos and Westeros, being black but then still having it resemble a white feudal world is dumb. Look at the English aristocracy after a few centuries after 1066, almost every major House was related to William or one of his original nobles. The same would be true in Westeros.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Seems like too tumblr of an idea. Just making them black "just because" is dumb. 

That is my point, if he wanted to tell that story then do it properly. Show what the reality of the situation would have been rather than trying to say that only they and other Valyrian Houses would be affected by it. It cheapens it and makes it seem like a poor gimmick to shock.

[thewolfofStarfall]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

In Essos people of Valyrian descent are seen as better as others, having darker skin would be a signifier of that.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the dark skin of these hypothetical Valyrians would be the primary reason they are distinct rather than their silver hair and purple eyes. Do you realize the Summer Islanders would still exist and we be a completely separate culture from tbess even though they are both dark skinned? Old Ghis, Valyria, and the current Slaver's Bay all import slaves from this location.  I could very well make the argument that the current Valyrians are ASIOAF version of the aryan master race: silver hair=blond, purple eyes=blue eyes, in fact it's likely that dragon loads did  looked down the people who didn't have these features, but this doesn't to seem to be a problem to you?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the dark skin of these hypothetical Valyrians would be the primary reason they are distinct rather than their silver hair and purple eyes. Do you realize the Summer Islanders would still exist and we be a completely separate culture from tbess even though they are both dark skinned? Old Ghis, Valyria, and the current Slaver's Bay all import slaves from this location.  I could very well make the argument that the current Valyrians are ASIOAF version of the aryan master race: silver hair=blond, purple eyes=blue eyes, in fact it's likely that dragon loads did  looked down the people who didn't have these features, but this doesn't to seem to be a problem to you?

Sorry, are you really this naive? Our society has never had a problem with red heads enslaving or being prejudiced against blondes. We as a society, both in the West and the East, have seen racism based on skin colour. Asking the readership to ignore this and show zero consequences to the dominant people being black weakens the series.

 

 

 

[thewolfofStarfall]

7 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Seems like too tumblr of an idea. Just making them black "just because" is dumb.

Quote

 

Anything that has to with racial inclusion is now associated with a benign website that has nothing to with the topic and is "dumb"? I would  state that the fact nearly every chracter in all the fantasy and science fiction stories that have ever been created is white is not only stupid, but boring and does nothing, but to contribute to the staus quo what fantasay characters are "supposed" to look like.

 

 

The Valyrian look is much more mystical and they stand out from everyone else who looks rather normal by real world standards. Especially considering they come from a hot desert area (essos in general) where most other inhabitants are darker in complexion and yet the Valyrians are really really white. Makes them stand out

Most of the inhabitants of Essos appear to white or at the most tan . The Valyrians don't really standout to me IMO.

 

Plus the uber-white people using an over-armed force to conquer the world is more familiar to the reader and thus more relatable and believable. 

That may be true. But I thought GRRM and author like him were all about subverting tropes?

 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

5 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

Your quote messed up but I'll reply as if it's here

Well fantasy in general is based on medieval Europe. Which mas mostly white. It's not racist that white people come from Europe and in medieval times their homelands were not very integrated. So yeah. Not dumb or boring. People just want "muh diversity" and don't care about setting. The reality is Italy has mostly Italians, England had mostly English, and Germany had mostly Germans. It's "supposed" to look like that, especially if the fantasy regions are as based on the real world as Planetos is. North = Scotland, Dorne = Moorish Spain, Stormlands = Germany, etc etc.

Essos is full of brown people. It's the middle east. Dothraki, Ghiscari, etc. are all darker than Westerosi. The free cities don't count since they are made up of many cultures mainly formed after Valyria. I assume Yi Ti is full of Asians.

[thewolfofStarfall]

54 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It would not matter, but it would add a similar level of racism we have saw in our world just with the colours reversed.  That was what I was pointing out. You mentioned that making the Targaryens black would have little effect on how the story was told, it would have huge ramifications on it and change much of Westerosi aristocracy in the process.

The idea of adding black people for the sake of it and ignore that having the dominant people of Planatos, the Valyrians and their descedents in Essos and Westeros, being black but then still having it resemble a white feudal world is dumb. Look at the English aristocracy after a few centuries after 1066, almost every major House was related to William or one of his original nobles. The same would be true in Westeros.

 

 

You do realize feudalism existed outside of Europe? The most notable example is Japan.  Dragon riders with purple eyes resembles a fedual society to you, but dragon riders with a darker skin tone is to much a stretch for your imagination? Secondly, most nobles are not related to the Targaryens, because they practiced incest. There is no reason three noble houses would take over drastically change how the ENTIRE nobility appears, just because something similar happened with the Norman conquest in real life. 

[YOVMO]

5 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

Alright,  but I still not seeing how the story featuring dark skin tonned Valyrians has anything to do with inserting real life racial dynamics. I have stated this physical characteristic wouldn't effect how the characters interact at all. It would just be a creative move, that sends a message that in real life race is truly a social construct.  Westeros and Essos is what we might call "colorblind" in real life. Culture  has more importance over a phenotype.

The point is that it doesn't not that it couldn't. So why bring other shit in?

[Lord Fauntleroy]

2 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

You do realize feudalism existed outside of Europe? The most notable example is Japan.  Dragon riders with purple eyes resembles a fedual society to you, but dragon riders with a darker skin tone is to much a stretch for your imagination? Secondly, most nobles are not related to the Targaryens, because they practiced incest. 

Targs married a ton of outside families, especially the womyn. Only a few did the icky sister bedding, even less after the dragons were gone. 

[thewolfofStarfall]

50 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

That is my point, if he wanted to tell that story then do it properly. Show what the reality of the situation would have been rather than trying to say that only they and other Valyrian Houses would be affected by it. It cheapens it and makes it seem like a poor gimmick to shock.

So, you're stating it wouldn't have mattered if a segment of the nobility were mixed race, but at the same time it would of resulted in racism? Those ideas seem to contradict each other. Also, you realize the term "mixed" is inherently ambiguous , the nobility could range lighter skin to darker skin depending on much Valyrian blood each family has. It could be completely arbitrary, with a noble house looking tannish over here, with another looking pale. Westeros is basically a color blind society, with a concept of culture but not "race" like in real life. I see absolutely no reason why there would be a system of racism that takes over, just because the nobles of an adavanced civilization who conquered them had a dark skin tone. That makes no sense. Why isn't there a system of racism that admires light skinned and silver haired people at the moment in the saga? Because ASIOAF is a fantasy story and it's a slippery slope argument to say X will automatically have this implication and nothing else. 

[thewolfofStarfall]

1 hour ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Well fantasy in general is based on medieval Europe. Which mas mostly white. It's not racist that white people come from Europe and in medieval times their homelands were not very integrated. So yeah. Not dumb or boring. People just want "muh diversity" and don't care about setting. The reality is Italy has mostly Italians, England had mostly English, and Germany had mostly Germans. It's "supposed" to look like that, especially if the fantasy regions are as based on the real world as Planetos is. North = Scotland, Dorne = Moorish Spain, Stormlands = Germany, etc etc.

Essos is full of brown people. It's the middle east. Dothraki, Ghiscari, etc. are all darker than Westerosi. The free cities don't count since they are made up of many cultures mainly formed after Valyria. I assume Yi Ti is full of Asians.

I do care about setting. I know that Westetos is not set in Europe nor Great Britain, because Westeros does not exist. Not every people featured in Westeros  had to be white because the continent gets inspiration from meideval history. ASIOAF is  a high fantasy series not historical fiction. I love making comparisons of GRRM's world to real life countries, but such comparisons need to taken with a grain of salt IMO. The story is brilliant either way, but it seems you're impying that if GRRM had not decided to the do conventional rotue in making all his main characters white, it would have been dentrimental to the story. Such a sentiment is not just stupid and tiresome, it is racist. Fantasy writers have creative lisence, and GRRM is specifically interested in subverting tropes.  Lastly, you're argument is null to other works of fantasy and science fiction where the world do not gets inspiration from real life meideval countries whatsoever, yet people of color are excluded.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

1 minute ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

I do care about setting. I know that Westetos is not set in Europe nor Great Britain, because Westeros does not exist. Not every people featured in Westeros  had to be white because the continent gets inspiration from meideval history. ASIOAF is  a high fantasy series not historical fiction. I love making comparisons of GRRM's world to real life countries, but that need to taken with a grain of salt IMO. The story is brilliant either way, but it seems you're impying that if GRRM hadn't decided to the do conventional rotue in making all his main characters white, it would be dentrimental to the story. Such a sentiment is not just stupid and tiresome, it is racist. Fantasy writers have creative lisence, and GRRM is specifically interested in subverting tropes.  Lastly, you're argument doesn't is null to other works of fantasy or science fiction  where the world do not gets inspiration from real life meideval countries whatsoever, yet people of color are excluded.

No it's not racist. Tuck the racism card back in your deck friendo. Nothing I said implies that this fictional black race is inferior to the fictional white one. Or whatever it is you're saying. 

It's an opinion about a fantasy story, about fantasy peoples. If GRRM had made it about race it would take away from the message he went with, which is about war and peace. You can only have so many themes before it starts to get muddled. Westerosi are not partiularly xenophobic so where would the conflict come from?

And the Valyrians are hardly "all his main characters". Like one or two protagonists are Valyrian. Everyone else would be white even if Dany and Aegon were black.

And ASoIaF is not high fantasy, it's mid fantasy at best. High fantasy is D&D or The Hobbit. Both of which are boring because they are not based on real life events in history like ASoIaF is. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

So, you're stating it wouldn't have mattered if a segment of the nobility were mixed race, but at the same time it would of resulted in racism?

I said it would not have mattered to me what color anyone was. It actually sounds a great idea if done properly and not hidden away from the obvious consequences that would have arisen as a result.  Making the most prestigious people black would have had a trickle down effect on the race of the nobility 300 years later while all the serfdom was white would have brought a level of racism into it which is not currently in the series. Ignoring such a thing would have cheapened the book, made it a dumb gimmick rather than an actual great idea.

Your idea of simply having the Targaryens and Valyrians as black and everything else the same is naive. Dragons and White walkers aside the strength of the series has been in its relative realism (as much as a fantasy fiction series can be), by ignoring racism that would have resulted from the super powers of the Planatos being black would have weakened the series as a whole. By making being 'black' or mixed race a recessive gene in their world would have been insulting.

 

[NorthGirl]

Disclaimer: not American and come from a country with 99% black people so I am not exactly in the same boat as some fans who are hurting for representation. Reading/watching western stories is the same as consuming East Asian media to me. So do not quote me to downplay the unease a subsection of the fandom rightfully feels about not being represented. Also I have very limited knowledge of detailed history of the regions covered in the saga so maybe my references are off but I tried to check using the Google.

 

On 6 août 2016 at 1:57 PM, RoamingRonin said:

It would have been an interesting, bold move. Cultural differences matter more than race does within the series so it would be more of a issue for readers than for the characters.

One things for sure, Daenerys would have been spared from being called a "white savior".

That would be one small favour, lol. To be fair I don't mind it in the books because it fails miserably due to it simply not being her place to free the slaves. It's not that it can't be done, it's that Dany can't do it.

On 6 août 2016 at 2:12 PM, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

There is no way GRRM wouldn't have been portrayed as a racist if he had done this.

Keep in mind that some people are even accusing him of racism due to parts of his portrayals of Dorne and the Summer Isles, two regions that are very idealized compared to the rest of the ASOIAF world (and the real world cultures he based those countries off of). It is thus not very hard to imagine what the reactions would have been had he portrayed an actual evil people like the Valyrians as black.

Also the two regions characterised by how sexual their people (especially women) are, so there is a point in bringing this up. Especially with the Summer Islands. GRRM is an American author in the 20-21st centuries in a country that had a history of denying black women their consent by saying that they were so sexual that they couldn't be raped. In the context of thinking about how that might be perceived (which I believe is the point of this thread), it's a little gauche (being euphemistic). It might sound ideal to you but the people of those cultures have suffered from being over sexualised so it would be a sore subject for them.

 

23 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Neither the Dothraki nor the Ironborn are savage idiots. 

 

I think the larger point here is why do we need to insert bullshit 2016 made up phony causes into this story? What good does it do anyone. This story is in a self contained universe that in many ways makes our modern world look like a bunch of savage idiots. Maybe we can just accept and enjoy the world the grrm is giving us without having to force it to be as idiotic as ours.

I find it funny that you repeat idiotic when the logic of your argument is hardly sound. All you are saying is that you don't want to think about race. That has zero baring on whether a story is interesting or not.

9 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I think that westeros has its own race dynamics and we don't need to bring ours in and I do not think this is the proper forum to elaborate on my beliefs regarding things that happen outside of planetos

The fact that you think that making a group of the main factions a different race means bringing all the "real world" dynamics makes you idiotic. If you say those race relations don't exist in ASOIAF (and I very strongly disagree), then why would one group that actually matters to the story being a different race change that. Different races -or whatever you think they call it- already exist in ASOIAF. The Targs being black would just make characters more central to the story a different skin tone. They are already marked with physically distinct features, why would having a darker skin tone make them that much different? The Valyrians are already a different race from the rest, much more different in fact than real world races are from each other genetically speaking since magic and genetics are intermingled in ASOIAF.

6 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

Alright,  but I still not seeing how the story featuring dark skin tonned Valyrians has anything to do with inserting real life racial dynamics. I have stated this physical characteristic wouldn't effect how the characters interact at all. It would just be a creative move, that sends a message that in real life race is truly a social construct.  Westeros and Essos is what we might call "colorblind" in real life. Culture  has more importance over a phenotype.

Because some people think that race supremacy is a fact of life as opposed to dumb justifications people use to commit atrocities.

4 hours ago, Bironic said:

Difficult thread, especially for someone who's native tongue isn't english. I'll try nonetheless.

When you read about the typical high fantasy trope of a people/race that is somehow special/superior to others (Targs/Valyrians/Elves/whatever), this race is almost always white. And there are people in our real world who basically believe the same, that whites are special/superior. So you already have our real world racial issues in your fantasy world. So by making the Targs black, you don't import real world racial issues into ASOIAF, they are already there.

But if you read the books, you will see that the it doesn't matter what skin color the characters have. So I couldn't care less if the Targs are black, asian, white, or purple.

Basically. At least a person who doesn't hold on to ridiculous socially invented "rules" that only exist the collective's head would realise that it doesn't matter. But some people don't realise. They think melanin is the cause of behavioural patterns as opposed to you know, how a society treats its people.

1 hour ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Seems like too tumblr of an idea. Just making them black "just because" is dumb. The Valyrian look is much more mystical and they stand out from everyone else who looks rather normal by real world standards. Especially considering they come from a hot desert area (essos in general) where most other inhabitants are darker in complexion and yet the Valyrians are really really white. Makes them stand out.

Plus the uber-white people using an over-armed force to conquer the world is more familiar to the reader and thus more relatable and believable. 

I'm most certainly in the minority but there is nothing intrinsically believable or relatable about super pale people ruling over less pale people. Just like I find it extremely weird that people believe western societies know more about being democratic and have much to teach others. But hey, in my country, everyone in power is black so after moving to a country where there is more diversity, I just came to the conclusion that the ruling class ethnic breakdown should reflect the ruled class ethnic breakdown because that just makes sense to me. #shrug

 

Back to the OP's question: I don't know because I am not part of the author's demographic or culture nor am I part of what I assume was the target audience demographic.

There are my two thoughts:

1- GRRM is a contemporary author with an established history of fantasy preceding him that he draws inspiration from, be it to emulate or go against. He is an American author so his cultural influences will be Eurocentric. Seeing as he studied medieval history it makes sense that should he want to develop a strong rich political intrigue in his fantasy setting, he would start with -as cliché as it sounds- what he knows. He has talked about how his story is in times an answer to certain tropes he didn't like; the erasure of social and political consequences past the adventures that lead to such and such being a ruler. He made a deliberate choice to model his world after one that is familiar and known to his prospective audience. In such a case, there is no need to deviate from what the expected demographics of such a world would be and its not much of a missed opportunity when you look at the parameters he set for his world to explore what he wanted to explore. The caveat of course is: why do the Valyrians need to look distinct in a way beyond what "real" humans don't. They could have just had rare features and ride dragons. Or only have their features changes when using or in the presence of magic. But I guess that's why the concept of super duper special looking magical races were born, right? Because how special are white people amongst other white people lookwise. 

2- GRRM is a contemporary author who is American. He has lived his whole life in a country that has a relatively high ethnic diversity. It's not just that his world as first established is super Western European and white, it's super British Isles centric when not in the exotic far lands with the brown people. It started with the war of the roses, and there is little that is explicitly linked to other noble figures the same way we know who Lancasters and Yorks are. I can't think of Russian, German or Spanish figures in the text. While the original set up being quite narrow can be excused as the story goes beyond its original borders, we hit a few problems before and after we leave westeros. a) if only having European looking characters is fine, why have these random black characters that are parodies (Chataya and her brothel, the loser prince that just sounds fucking ridiculous)? And once we leave Westeros, why is the non-European parallel (especially in the areas where the characters would clearly read as non-white) ripping off cultures more than a millennium behind the time period that inspired Westeros? You could bring up the fact that Essos seems to be more technologically advanced in some cases but that's not contradictory as western medieval Europe actually fell behind in science and technology after the fall of the western Roman Empire. So that still means that basing Essos on Ancient Greece, Rome and older Asia Minor cultures is putting these non-white coded people behind the curve compared to Westeros and on top of that, give what a modern western audience considers to be barbaric practices and practicing slavery. It does become a problem and in fact goes against the realism to want to exploit those exoticised cultures, to only take from the part of their history that shows them at a culturally repulsive time for a western audience. Why not adapt Essos as like the Ottoman Empire in its glory days? Or if we are mix matching time periods, why not have the summer isles be Egypt during the New Empire at its apogee? Either because he didn't think of it or it didn't suit his plot/mood setting needs. And both possibilities are problematic although the former more from a society at large point of view and the latter from the individual lack of care. If we are talking about missed opportunity, while I don't necessarily think that black Targs would have been the answers, considering where Valyria was, the historical parallel established for Essos and the rest of its population, it certainly doesn't make more sense for the Valyrians to look like proto-Europeans. They should look like everything but "white" as it is used in our society. So I guess he missed his opportunity to really push his desire for realism far enough because the only reason why people think it "makes sense" that Valyrians are white is the same reason why there needed to be endless debates before everyone realised that, yes, Ancient Egyptians were black. Because western society is primed to see whiteness as intrinsically linked with leadership and superiority. Anything impressive is assumed to be the default and here, default is white. Just like default in my country is black. He could have made a statement I guess if the Valyrisns were not white, or it could have started stupid conversations assuming he is racist or even more likely it simply would not have been the hit it is, let's be real.

i can say that because look how his books have progressively expanded their scope when it comes to discussing patriarchy and sexism, the book that has the most female POVs at once is generally the least popular. The book where he gives us more on Essos, the chapters are bemoaned and people deliberately don't try to remember the non western names of the brown people. Nevermind that Daenerys and Viserys are hardly common. 

I think whether it's a missed opportunity depends to how responsive the audience would have been to the alternative. I don't know about the US in the 90s but right now it doesn't seem like it would have done much in terms of impact. I personally would have not minded reading that book. That being said, I am happy with the books as they are but like I said at the beginning, I don't have a stake in it really. I think GRRM made some faux pas, tried to clumsily correct them in his auxiliary material but ultimately the books offer enough to me that it is not "worth it" to read them. I'm glad to see this topic because I think it's an interesting one and as long as we are not hounding the author, what's the harm in discussing it.

[RoamingRonin]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I said it would not have mattered to me what color anyone was. It actually sounds a great idea if done properly and not hidden away from the obvious consequences that would have arisen as a result.  Making the most prestigious people black would have had a trickle down effect on the race of the nobility 300 years later while all the serfdom was white would have brought a level of racism into it which is not currently in the series. Ignoring such a thing would have cheapened the book, made it a dumb gimmick rather than an actual great idea.

Your idea of simply having the Targaryens and Valyrians as black and everything else the same is naive. Dragons and White walkers aside the strength of the series has been in its relative realism (as much as a fantasy fiction series can be), by ignoring racism that would have resulted from the super powers of the Planatos being black would have weakened the series as a whole. By making being 'black' or mixed race a recessive gene in their world would have been insulting.

 

How is it naive? That story doesn't contain racism as it is now...

It doesn't even make sense that there would be racism when the (black) Targaryens would still be the minority. Who would be the perpetrators? Why would the serfs decide to hate all blacks when it's only a handful dominating them? Not to mention the (black) Targaryens would still be appointing white nobility to powerful positions and intermarrying with them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

How is it naive? That story doesn't contain racism as it is now...

Right, and the reason for that is the world is pretty much white in Westeros. Three hundred years ago the Kings (and some of their main supporters) being Black would change that, that would have trickled

2 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

 

It doesn't even make sense that there would be racism when the (black) Targaryens would still be the minority.

They would not be the minority in the nobility though. Three centuries is a long tiime. The descendants of Aegon, Orys, Lord Velaryon, Lord Celtigar, Lord Qoherys, their own knights and retainers as well as prominent nobles from Essos (like the Rogarre's) would have trickled down after three centuries into the Westerosi nobility.

The darker someones complexion the more noble they would seem, something of a reversal seen in many cultures were the lighter skin someone was the more noble their descendants seem to have have been (notably in the Asian continent).

Three centuries is along time, much of the nobility would be mixed race by then while the peasants would still be largely white. 

Though admittedly I take back my earlier statement that this would weaken the series by making it unrealistic that the vast majority of the Westerosi nobles were still white inspite of this. The people in this thread don't seem to understand that this would have happened and maybe that is true of the majority of the readership.

2 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

 

Who would be the perpetrators? Why would the serfs decide to hate all blacks when it's only a handful dominating them?

Wait, can you quote were I said they serfs would them? Shit, if the whitening skin creams in Asia are anything to go by it would be the opposite, they'd admire them and want to be darker skinned to seem more 'noble'.

In nobility though, the paler nobles would be seen as lesser stock.

2 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

 

Not to mention the (black) Targaryens would still be appointing white nobility to powerful positions and intermarrying with them.

eh? Not really. The first Small Council featured Orys, two Velaryons and a Celtigar. The second Hand married his daughter to Lord Qoherys presumably to curry favor with the new regime.

After three hundred years much of the nobility in the South, especially the Crownlands, Stormlands and Riverlands would be a darker complexion than the nobility of the North and Ironborn.