Future of Sansa

[Springwatch]

36 minutes ago, teej6 said:

She was suspicious of LF at first but in her Alayne chapters we see her getting comfortable in and completely embracing the role of LF's daughter so much so that she even starts referring to LF as her father in her inner thoughts "...her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do" or "Father and I have larger concerns."  ...

I don't think you should trust the thoughts of 'Alayne', they're fake  - Sansa is method acting here.

Quote

(Littlefinger)

"... You are Alayne and you must be Alayne all the time." He put two fingers on her left breast. "Even here. In your heart. Can you be my daughter in your heart?"

... Lies and Arbor gold she thought. "I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?"

 

[teej6]

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think you should trust the thoughts of 'Alayne', they're fake  - Sansa is method acting here.

 

Method acting. That's a good one but I'm not convinced. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

43 minutes ago, teej6 said:

 As for tGoHH's dream of the maid slaying the giant, say even if one to believe that it is Sansa killing LF (which I'm not totally convinced) there's no indication that Sansa's is able to do so through some grand scheme or her becoming some master player.  If this were to happen, it will most likely be a spur of the moment when LF is taken totally off guard and completely helpless.

If you don't think that the giant in the dream is Little finger, then who is it? and please don't insult your own intelligence by saying that you honestly believe the Ghosts dream refers to the tearing apart of a dolly. 

Littlefinger is set up as the giant as early on as Bran's dream, the giant looming over his sisters with nothing inside but thick black blood is LF, He armours himself in the stone persona of his lowly birth. The place he comes from is littered with stones, it's a tiny stony outcrop. The giant in Brans dream is armoured in Stone. He strides over the walls of the snow castle, and in the very next chapter Arya tells us that the Titan of Braavos could stride right over Winterfells walls. His sigil is the head of the Titan, despite his preference for the mocking bird, the Titan's head is his house sigil. A stone head no less! 

I'm not really sure what else you'd need to be convinced? 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@The Weirwoods Eyes  I just started a thread on the Titan of Braavos that does include more possible foreshadowing of Sansa's future here.

Interesting about Bran's dream... I may need to go back and re-read that.  I always interpreted it to be Robert Strong, the Hound and possibly Jaime.  

And I'm not sure how to convince anyone that seems to ignore any given textual evidence.  Anytime you point stuff out in the context to which it was written it gets dismissed.  Don't like Sansa? Fine, that's cool.  Maybe this isn't the thread for some people then.

[Springwatch]

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Method acting. That's a good one but I'm not convinced. 

Absolutely! Arya in Braavos does the same thing, don't you think?

[teej6]

53 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I believe she will do it intentionally, when she finally understands how LF is behind all of her life's misery. She doesn't have to be "master player" to do it; she's already getting the basics, she just needs to fully understand that she is LF's blind spot, and find ways to exploit this. In her chapters we don't only see Sansa being influenced by LF; we also see him trusting her all the more, behaving as if he believes that the two of them are a team. And, just like everyone else, he's got to make mistakes - Sansa will be his mistake. So, IMO, LF himself will be partly accountable for his fall.

The bolded part, I full agree with. And, most likely Sansa will be the cause of LF's downfall (intentionally or otherwise). What I don't see any evidence of in the books so far, is Sansa becoming a player in the league of LF or Varys. And I definitely don't agree with those that argue that Sansa's thoughts in her Alayne chapters are the workings of some master schemer. Sansa as Alayne is trying to survive, and in doing so is adopting the traits and characteristics of her adopted father. Whether this will bode well for Sansa or not, only the next two books will tell. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Just now, Springwatch said:

Absolutely! Arya in Braavos does the same thing, don't you think?

It's totally method acting with both sisters.  How else do you serve up convincing deception than by totally immersing yourself in the part?  Make the lie so sweet the target drinks it up happily.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

For what it is worth, I don't think Sansa will meticulously plan LF's downfall and sneakily seek revenge. I think she will manipulate him to get what she wants, Winterfell & the return of Stark power in the North, and that once she is in a position to wield that power as Lady of the House. She will discover his part in it all, and execute him for it. 

She's no dummy, she is clever, and very good at reading people. She doesn't fully trust him, she definitely seeks to take advantage of his feelings for her, and she doesn't want to re marry for anything less than real love and desire. But she also recognises that her best shot at safety currently lies with LF as does her best shot at a restoration of house Stark to the North. (remember she thinks she is Eddard Starks only surviving eligible child.) 

I think returning to Winterfell will be the point where she puts all the pieces into place. And that Jeyne Poole will be the person who tips her off. Jeyne was last seen heading to Castle Black and Jon, Jon was last seen about to head for WF. I think he will arrive there eventually as will Sansa and then is when she is fully awakened to his sins. Jeyne's fate alone would be enough to have her turn on LF she loves the girl well. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  I just started a thread on the Titan of Braavos that does include more possible foreshadowing of Sansa's future here.

Interesting about Bran's dream... I may need to go back and re-read that.  I always interpreted it to be Robert Strong, the Hound and possibly Jaime.  

And I'm not sure how to convince anyone that seems to ignore any given textual evidence.  Anytime you point stuff out in the context to which it was written it gets dismissed.  Don't like Sansa? Fine, that's cool.  Maybe this isn't the thread for some people then.

Yes I used to think Robert strong too, But it never quite sat right with me. He's far to insignificant a character to warrant such an important vision.  And LF fits it way better than him. The Hound and Jaime are both protective factors in the girls lives, The Hound spends time taking care of and teaching both of them, and Jaime has turned his life around in dedication to finding them and keeping them safe. The figure looming over them needs to be someone who is a direct threat to them, and Robert Strong just isn't that big of a character. LF however is one of the main villains of the entire series.  

Sadly yes, those who do not wish to see....

 

oh, and I shall check out that thread. 

[teej6]

28 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

... Littlefinger is not a super genius any more than Sansa is.  He's just completely selfish, clever, and never met an opportunity he didn't like.  He carries himself as the smartest person in the room, but there's plenty of hints that people are on to him and he has no real right to be as confident as he is.  To be fair, not one person knows the whole story on LF so it's not really fair to claim Sansa isn't that intelligent because she doesn't know what the readers know.  The author has kept the vital damning whole story from Sansa because he needs to ratchet up the suspense in the Vale and let the dramatic conclusion be exceptionally satisfying, befitting a great villain.  

You got to be kidding me with the bolded part. I can't take anything you say seriously after that.  As for "The author has kept the vital damning whole story from Sansa", that's not true either. Even without hearing Lysa's last words, LF (with Varys and Pycelle) was part of Cersie's inner circle who convinced Sansa to write to her mother and brother and was right there declaring her father a traitor. Add what Sansa heard from Lysa's mouth any intelligent person would be totally mistrustful of LF, instead we have Sansa referring to him as father in her inner thoughts. And all your arguments about GRRM wanting to keep it suspenseful and all that nonsense, doesn't make sense in the context of what we've seen him show through character POVs for the past five books. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Just now, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

For what it is worth, I don't think Sansa will meticulously plan LF's downfall and sneakily seek revenge. I think she will manipulate him to get what she wants, Winterfell & the return of Stark power in the North, and that once she is in a position to wield that power as Lady of the House. She will discover his part in it all, and execute him for it.

Exactly.  I don't think that is even her thought process.  She's not thinking "how can I take this guy out permanently?"  She just wants to go home, be safe, and avoid another arranged marriage.  

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

think returning to Winterfell will be the point where she puts all the pieces into place. And that Jeyne Poole will be the person who tips her off. Jeyne was last seen heading to Castle Black and Jon, Jon was last seen about to head for WF. I think he will arrive there eventually as will Sansa and then is when she is fully awakened to his sins. Jeyne's fate alone would be enough to have her turn on LF she loves the girl well. 

You are totally right.  Jeyne could tell her it was LF that forced her into prostitution and arranged for her to pose as Arya to marry Ramsey.  Sandor Clegane could potentially tell her about LF betraying her father.  Bronze Yohn and Miranda Royce most certainly know who she really is.  The potential is huge for exposure of the whole story.

[teej6]

48 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I never said he "hid her thoughts," I said he doesn't spell it all out explicitly like "OMG he's plotting again. I better go do x,y,and z hoping things will turn out this way instead because this is how I really feel about it." He drops hints and taken in context the reader is meant to figure it out.  He's not springing an "aha" moment.  He's been dropping the breadcrumbs all along and letting us follow, but he makes us work for the reward.  As shocking as any major event can be, it was never really a shock when you see it had been set up that way the whole time.  It was just never obvious.      

Again, GRRM is not writing a suspense novel. There might be moments of mystery such as Jon's parentage (which also is revealed to the astute reader in Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar and Lyanna, etc) or moments of total shock/surprise as in Ned's beheading (again build up by the author through several chapters of showing Ned's shortsightedness), but he doesn't have a character think one thing in his/her inner thoughts in one chapter and then think/act totally differently in the next. Sansa is thinking of LF as her protector so much that she refers to him as her father in her inner thoughts. I can't say how she will think of him in her subsequent chapters but I can say that I feel, as of now, Sansa is nowhere close to seeing LF for what he really is. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 minute ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Exactly.  I don't think that is even her thought process.  She's not thinking "how can I take this guy out permanently?"  She just wants to go home, be safe, and avoid another arranged marriage.  

You are totally right.  Jeyne could tell her it was LF that forced her into prostitution and arranged for her to pose as Arya to marry Ramsey.  Sandor Clegane could potentially tell her about LF betraying her father.  Bronze Yohn and Miranda Royce most certainly know who she really is.  The potential is huge for exposure of the whole story.

Absolutely! and one thing I am certain of is that Sandor will be reunited with her. Those two are linked way too strongly for that not to occur. And yes Randa and Bronze Yohn likely know her for who she truly is. I think as well that Jeyne will turn out to have been the easily dismissed eyes and ears during some conversation between LF & Cersei when she was taken and given to LF, or overheard something whilst she was in his brothel.  It is quite possible she has knowledge which is damning for Baelish.  Clegane certainly knows a lot about LF and his slimy ways, and was a Lannister insider at the time.  

[teej6]

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Absolutely! Arya in Braavos does the same thing, don't you think?

Nope. Arya in Bravos is trying hard to convince herself she is no one but failing terribly at it. And we see this in her inner thoughts or acts such as keeping Needle or the killing of Dareon. She says the Many Face God can have the rest of her but not Needle cause Needle is who she is, which is Arya Stark. 

[Springwatch]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Nope. Arya in Bravos is trying hard to convince herself she is no one but failing terribly at it. And we see this in her inner thoughts or acts such as keeping Needle or the killing of Dareon. She says the Many Face God can have the rest of her but not Needle cause Needle is who she is, which is Arya Stark. 

That's the point. Every now and then, in private, we see Arya think her own thoughts. Sansa must do the same, but not in the time period of her chapters. All characters spend most of their life outside the narrative.

[teej6]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

That's the point. Every now and then, in private, we see Arya think her own thoughts. Sansa must do the same, but not in the time period of her chapters. All characters spend most of their life outside the narrative.

If Sansa was thinking of LF as the person who is somehow responsible or colluded and consorted with the people who orchestrated the ills that befell her family, we would see it in her thoughts. GRRM is not trying to hide his characters' true feelings or motives from the reader, especially when said character is a POV character.  Arya's chapters prove this point. Now Sansa chapters in the subsequent books may show her acquiring this knowledge and beginning to plot against LF but as of now this has happened. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You got to be kidding me with the bolded part. I can't take anything you say seriously after that.  As for "The author has kept the vital damning whole story from Sansa", that's not true either. Even without hearing Lysa's last words, LF (with Varys and Pycelle) was part of Cersie's inner circle who convinced Sansa to write to her mother and brother and was right there declaring her father a traitor. Add what Sansa heard from Lysa's mouth any intelligent person would be totally mistrustful of LF, instead we have Sansa referring to him as father in her inner thoughts. And all your arguments about GRRM wanting to keep it suspenseful and all that nonsense, doesn't make sense in the context of what we've seen him show through character POVs for the past five book

Oh really? She's certainly seemed to figure out that Lyn Corbray is Petyr's "foe pretending to be his friend pretending to be his foe" and that couldn't possibly be important in the near future.  Petyr seems blissfully convinced Corbray is his puppet.  She walked into the granary and heard all about LF's plan to price fix food and fuck over the other lords come winter.  But she's dumb, so that probably went over head and that info won't be important. He's clever no doubt, but he's not infallible super genius that knows everything.  He's got major hubris and blindspots in some areas and Sansa has been exploiting it.  The whole tourney was HER idea and LF lapped that shit up because he thought it would strengthen his hold over the Vale.  She did it to get SR his own set of "winged knights" to protect him and make him brave --  his own "kingsguard" loyal to him, not hired swords by Petyr.  But nooooo, Sansa's just too stupid to play LF.  You're right, dude. I give up! 

And that inner circle didn't "convince" Sansa.  That was pure intimidation of an 11 year old child.  She was coerced into writing it which her mother said as much.  And she has major misgivings over what happened to Lysa, but you are assuming she has knowledge of poisons to understand what "tears" meant when they were just talking about literal tears.  The book has hinted that names and symptoms of specific drugs are not widely known except by people who have specifically studied them -- maesters, assassins, Oberyn Martell, and certain purveyors of vice.  Yes, she does sometimes refer to him as her father in her thoughts, because sometimes he does act like a father. GRRM has said sometimes he does feel paternalistic for her imagining her the daughter he could have had with Cat and then other times she's his teenage fantasy.  He's smart enough to know he cannot go full creep and threatening on her or she's just 100% hate him and she won't be a good accomplice will she?  But he's been creep enough for Sansa to know what his weakness is.  If you know what a man wants, you know how to move him.  Everything LF has ever told her could apply right back to himself and he's so overconfident he can't see it.    

[Springwatch]

@teej6 We disagree then. I think the major theme of the books is that the worth of a person is not in their appearance, or their speech, or even their thoughts (Ned's thoughts are beautiful). I'll say it again - you can disregard a person's thoughts. Only actions count.

Aside from that, I've just noticed this is a 'future of sansa' thread, and I have a question of my own. It really bugs me that Sansa dreams of Illyn Payne so much. Is he in her future, as well as her past? He's back in the story, but what could he possibly do?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Just now, Springwatch said:

Sansa dreams of Ilyn Payne so much. Is he in her future, as well as her past? He's back in the story, but what could he possibly do?

That's great you brought up Illyn Payne!  We've forgotten about him, haven't we?  He's definitely the stuff of her nightmares.  Since Sandor has figured so prominently in her dreams and he's re-entered the story as the gravedigger, it stands to reason there will be an eventual crossing of paths again.  The same might be said of Illyn Payne as well.  Right now, iirc he's playing silent therapist to Jaime while he's training his left hand to fight.  He's still on Arya's list too.  As King's Justice, he's still in play possibly as Sansa's executioner for Joffrey's murder.  Not sure how the positioning of the two characters is going to be set up though.

[teej6]

18 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh really? She's certainly seemed to figure out that Lyn Corbray is Petyr's "foe pretending to be his friend pretending to be his foe" and that couldn't possibly be important in the near future.  Petyr seems blissfully convinced Corbray is his puppet.  She walked into the granary and heard all about LF's plan to price fix food and fuck over the other lords come winter.  But she's dumb, so that probably went over head and that info won't be important. He's clever no doubt, but he's not infallible super genius that knows everything.  He's got major hubris and blindspots in some areas and Sansa has been exploiting it.  The whole tourney was HER idea and LF lapped that shit up because he thought it would strengthen his hold over the Vale.  She did it to get SR his own set of "winged knights" to protect him and make him brave --  his own "kingsguard" loyal to him, not hired swords by Petyr.  But nooooo, Sansa's just too stupid to play LF.  You're right, dude. I give up! 

And that inner circle didn't "convince" Sansa.  That was pure intimidation of an 11 year old child.  She was coerced into writing it which her mother said as much.  And she has major misgivings over what happened to Lysa, but you are assuming she has knowledge of poisons to understand what "tears" meant when they were just talking about literal tears.  The book has hinted that names and symptoms of specific drugs are not widely known except by people who have specifically studied them -- maesters, assassins, Oberyn Martell, and certain purveyors of vice.  Yes, she does sometimes refer to him as her father in her thoughts, because sometimes he does act like a father. GRRM has said sometimes he does feel paternalistic for her imagining her the daughter he could have had with Cat and then other times she's his teenage fantasy.  He's smart enough to know he cannot go full creep and threatening on her or she's just 100% hate him and she won't be a good accomplice will she?  But he's been creep enough for Sansa to know what his weakness is.  If you know what a man wants, you know how to move him.  Everything LF has ever told her could apply right back to himself and he's so overconfident he can't see it.    

I never said Sansa was dumb. I said she isn't intelligent enough as of now in the books to see the full extend of LF's schemes and manipulations. And if I recall, I stated up thread that she figures out Lyn Corbray's part in LF's scheme but that still does not qualify her to take on LF at his own game. And all the stuff about Sansa exploiting LF's blindspots is fanfic at this point, nothing in the books indicate this. LF does have his blindspots but Sansa hasn't fully recognized it let alone begun exploiting it in the books. You sure your not confusing the fanfic they showed in the show for book information?

The bolded part is completely your assumption and nothing in the text indicate this. And btw, I'm not a dude