Opinions on Theon

[INCBlackbird]

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

In my reading of your posts you do nothing but make excuses for Theon's faults and sometimes downright evil acts. I can't tell if that is your intent or not.

Many of the posters responding to you on this thread (myself included) have clearly stated their rationale for their dislike of the vile acts committed by Theon. And contrary to what you keep stating, a lot of the posters on this thread who dislike Theon's actions do so not because they can't empathize with the character or don't have as good an understading of his character as you do, but because they see his actions as plainly wrong, some of which were committed out of complete disregard for human life. Theon killed the millers boys to save face and for no other reason. Yes, as you've repeatedly pointed out many others in the series have killed but few have done so on such callous grounds. 

Feeling empathy for a person and condemning his/her evil act are not mutually exclusive. I can sit in my apartment and feel empathy for a freedom fighter in a distant land but that doesn't mean I won't condemn his/her action if they shoot innocent people in the name of freedom. There's a big difference between feeling empathy for a killer and justifying his/her act, the latter of which is what you are doing in your defense of Theon.  

Than you are reading my posts wrong because I never made excuses for him. Like I said many times, just because I understand him doesn't mean I excuse him. The problem is that a lot of people don't seem to understand him. they reduce his character to a black and white villain, or at the very least they reduce his actions to something black and white, like you just did here "Theon killed the miller boys to save face and for no other reason" Do you see how black and white that is? you're leaving out the context of the world he lives in, Theon's background and so on. Humans are not that simple. And no person is the same so you can't judge someone else looking from your own perspective. I know that humans have the tendency to make everything simple so they can put others into boxes but I thought that people who read asoiaf wouldn't do that considering the fact that all the characters are so complex.

And yes, like I said I condemn his actions while feeling empathy for him. yet several people on here have already admitted that they turn off their empathy for Theon so there you go.

[INCBlackbird]

4 hours ago, BlueBard said:

 

And negative childhood experiences makes a murderer and woman abuser a good person who just went a bit wrong because they are a victim of the Westerosi hostage system and anyone who doesn't empathise with Theon is disgusting?

Where is your empathy for the Miller's boys? You've already stated the Captains daughter "knew what she was getting into" when there is ample evidence in the text that she patently didn't. where's your empathy for her? Where's your empathy for Beth, the little girl with the noose round her neck?

Is it disgusting to not empathise with Theon's victims? 

People in Westeros hate the Ironborn because they steal, murder and rape and take pride in their savagery, that seems like a fair response to me-they are like ISIS without the proselytising. Given the Ironborn culture and their propensity to revel in violence rather than sow its obvious the Starks treated Theon well and eventually trusted him enough to include him in every aspect of family life

On this forum its a dead cert that most of us were bullied as kids lol, Using his hostage status as "mitigating circumstances" doesn't support your argument that Theon was a good guy really and the rest of are just too horrible or stupid to see it. Mitigation is used to decide on punishment, not guilt or innocence. Not a single person has said Theon deserved Ramsay's torture, in fact everyone has said nobody deserved to be treated that way and they sympathise with Reek. Notwithstanding that sympathy, being bullied and being a hostage who lives like a Lord is not a sufficient explanation for his truly awful behaviour. Being a weak and cruel boy who never displays a shred of empathy for anyone else  does.

You should have named this thread 'Positive opinions only on Theon' as you seem to have a hard time accepting people have valid reasons to have negative opinions of him.

Yes, generally negative childhoods cause emotional/psychological problems. Having such problems doesn't make one a bad person. What would make someone a bad person is if they enjoy killing/torturing others. Theon doesn't.

I have plenty of empathy for all of these people, I can have empathy for several people at once you know? Do you really think that you have to pick a side to give empathy to? That in order to have empathy for them you have to turn off your empathy for Theon?

Yes it is disgusting not to empathise with his victims, but there's no one who does so so what is your point?

Just because Theon's family is crazy doesn't mean people should just assume that he's the same, which they obviously did. prejudicing for the win. Also, trusting him really erases the fact that he lived for ten years knowing he could die? or did you turn off your empathy for him and did not realise that?

"Mitigation is used to decide on punishment, not guilt or innocence." exactly! So you can all stop saying that i'm excusing him now, that's exactly why I pointed that out.

"Not a single person has said Theon deserved Ramsay's torture, in fact everyone has said nobody deserved to be treated that way and they sympathise with Reek." well yeah, I'd think that's logical. The times that someone did say that they thought he deserved it I almost had to puke, I was so disgusted.

"Notwithstanding that sympathy, being bullied and being a hostage who lives like a Lord is not a sufficient explanation for his truly awful behaviour." Yes it is, because guess what, it explains everything he does. "Being a weak and cruel boy who never displays a shred of empathy for anyone else  does." the text disproves this version of Theon.

"You should have named this thread 'Positive opinions only on Theon' as you seem to have a hard time accepting people have valid reasons to have negative opinions of him." I was sorta hoping that the opinions on Theon on this forum had evolved cause they have on tumblr, we see very little hate while there used to be some everyday. Sadly I was wrong. (then again i've also seen ridiculously hatefull opinions on Sansa and Jaime, I think this forum has the attitude to very harshly judge characters who don't deserve it)

[INCBlackbird]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

What you fail to see is that understanding, or even empathizing, does not equal excusing or condoning.

That's what I've been saying so how exactly do I not see that? I've litarly said a million times that just cause I understand him doesn't mean I condone him.
 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Contrary to what you say, most people who argue with you understand or try to understand the reasons for Theons actions and still condemn them.

Then how is it that they keep making wrong statements about him that are directly disproved by the text?
 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Precisely because humans are complex. A person's moral character isn't solely defined by their experience. From a legal point of view, we judge people based on their ability to make informed choices at a given moment..

it's not but people are shaped by their experiences, it's what makes them into who they are (certainly their experiences at a young age) And Theon's identity crisis can be traced back to his childhood. It's a big part of him, especially in clash because his support system fell down and his identity suddenly became very unstable and he does what he does trying to create new support and failing. The events in Winterfell are basically him being stuck in a vicious circle of doom and getting deeper and deeper because he's not self aware enough to end it, neither is he mature enough.
 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

What's crucial to understand about Theon is that while his life story excuses betraying the Starks, it does not excuse the killing of innocents. The choices he made, while understandable, would not necessarily have been that of another character. In fact, throughout the series, other characters are faced with similar dilemmas and choose to protect the innocents rather than protect themselves. This is what makes them heroes in the common sense of the term.
 

I never said it excuses him, nothing excuses killing someone else (except if you really are unaware of your actions perhaps) it doesn't bother me that people condemn him for what he did, it doesn't bother even bother me when people call him evil perse because if that is there standard for an evil person fine. What does bother me is that they say things about Theon that aren't true, like that he is cruel, that he doesn't  feel guilty, that he doesn't feel empathy for anyone else, take your pick of the things people have said even just in this thread that aren't true. All of that shows a misunderstanding of the character so I try to explain to them why it's a misunderstanding, I explain Theon to them and yet they just repeat the same things over and over, that is frustrating.

and this is besides the point but because you brought it up: I generally don't like characters who protect the innocents over themselves because I often consider them unrealistic. That said, I don't remember someone in asoiaf who does that, i'm not saying it didn't happen but could you give an example?
 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

As for compassion... I'm not sure what you want from us. You admit that he did wrong, but think we shouldn't condemn him, is that it? Interesting. I'm actually very liberal on such issues, and don't believe in punishment either. But the moral character that Theon showed is in very respect that which I despise, and which I think should be punished in order for society to function.

He already was, mind you. Martin took care of that for us.

You can have compassion for him while also condemning his actions... Also, the thing is that a lot of people seem to think that humans are perfect or something? That we should be completely selfless, completely without flaws. We are not, that's why Theon is so realistic. And I think that's why so many people don't like him, his issues are extremely universal but they're generally also the kind of issues you rather don't admit that you have. A lot of people are in denial about them (just like Theon is) so he kinda makes for a nice mirror that they don't want to look into so they end up completely rejecting that he does anything because of those issues (that deep down they know they share with him) but he must do it because he's evil, or cruel. They simplefy his reasons because that's much easier to deal with.

[INCBlackbird]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

This is hard to say, and it depends how you define psychopathy. But some of Arya's actions go far beyond that of a traumatized kid.

forgot to reply to this.

A psychopath is a person who suffers from antisocial personality disorder (at least that is the closest to an actual method to diagnose someone). which is characterised by things such as : a lack of empathy, skilled at manipulating others.... I think that when the word psychopath is used in every day life however, people often mean someone who suffers from a certain type of antisocial personality disorder (not all of them kill people of course) the type that has elements of the narcissistic personality disorder and/or sadism.

So I don't see how Arya could be a psychopath? She certainly does messed up things, but she is very empathic, it's normal that she's angry after the trauma's she's been through and I don't think that anything she does goes beyond that of a traumatised kid, what do you think went beyond it?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

This is hard to say, and it depends how you define psychopathy. But some of Arya's actions go far beyond that of a traumatized kid.

It's very easy to determine that Arya is not a psychopath. Psychopathy does not mean "a murderer". She kills from the same mindset an executioner would. More, from the same mindset that Ned Stark executes a man. She learns a man's history, watches his actions in the presence, judges him and decides he's not worth her empathy, and executes him. She is exactly the example of a very empathic person, who chooses not to empathize with those who harm innocents. She empathizes with the victims. Arya may claim it was desertion that prompted her to kill Dareon, but she decides it after learning how he betrayed Sam, him having boasted about it, after seeing him lie multiple times, and ogling the daughter of the Sailor's Wife. Arya stops thinking on the "why" with regards the insurance man once she realizes that a child or widow prayed for his death (and paid a price) just like she prays for the deaths of those who harmed her family, friends and innocents. Once she empathizes with the victims, she proceeds on thinking on the "how". And it's the same with Raff all over, who despite not being a Mountain's man anymore talks off killing an innocent dwarf, explicitly stating he doesn't care that the dwarf is innocent, and jumps with glee at the idea of raping a child.

She's an empath who chooses not to sympathize with people who consistently harm innocent people and make silly excuses for it. Imagine Arya witnessing Theon doing what he does in WF from a hiding place, and he'd have died stuck by the pointy end in aCoK.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's very easy to determine that Arya is not a psychopath. Psychopathy does not mean "a murderer". She kills from the same mindset an executioner would. More, from the same mindset that Ned Stark executes a man. She learns a man's history, watches his actions in the presence, judges him and decides he's not worth her empathy, and executes him. She is exactly the example of a very empathic person, who chooses not to empathize with those who harm innocents. She empathizes with the victims. Arya may claim it was desertion that prompted her to kill Dareon, but she decides it after learning how he betrayed Sam, him having boasted about it, after seeing him lie multiple times, and ogling the daughter of the Sailor's Wife. Arya stops thinking on the "why" with regards the insurance man once she realizes that a child or widow prayed for his death (and paid a price) just like she prays for the deaths of those who harmed her family, friends and innocents. Once she empathizes with the victims, she proceeds on thinking on the "how". And it's the same with Raff all over, who despite not being a Mountain's man anymore talks off killing an innocent dwarf, explicitly stating he doesn't care that the dwarf is innocent, and jumps with glee at the idea of raping a child.

She's an empath who chooses not to sympathize with people who consistently harm innocent people and make silly excuses for it. Imagine Arya witnessing Theon doing what he does in WF from a hiding place, and he'd have died stuck by the pointy end in aCoK.

This exactly! and yes, I was I was actually thinking about what you said, that people can turn off their empathy and that this is exactly what Arya does. Also, the point about Dareon is interesting, i've never really spent much time analysing Arya so I always took her reason for killing Dareon as a pragmatic one, but it makes sense that he'd do it because of what he said and basically use the deserting thing as the excuse to kill him.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

This tread really does show the truth of the saying "no two people ever read the same book".

Clearly we all read the characters differently, I have had a strong dislike for Tyrion since his chapter at the wall, but I know he is generally a fan favourite. That is fine, we can all have different interpretations.

But claiming that everyone who dislikes Theon are emotionally stumped and lacking in reading and comprehension abilities is quite harsh (especially from someone who themselves have been bullied). There is no "reading it the wrong way" just different ways. 

 

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

This tread really does show the truth of the saying "no two people ever read the same book".

Clearly we all read the characters differently, I have had a strong dislike for Tyrion since his chapter at the wall, but I know he is generally a fan favourite. That is fine, we can all have different interpretations.

But claiming that everyone who dislikes Theon are emotionally stumped and lacking in reading and comprehension abilities is quite harsh (especially from someone who themselves have been bullied). There is no "reading it the wrong way" just different ways. 

 

I don't think that would be true if more people had more self-awareness. I think it's perfectly possible to have the same interpretation of a character and yet one person dislikes them and the other doesn't. Because we all dislike/like characters for personal reasons.

I do believe there is a correct interpretation for every character in theory but of course in practice it's difficult to get the correct interpretation. The reason we have different interpretations is not because there are different interpretations but because we are comprimised by our own emotions. And The only way to reduce that comprimise is through self awareness, being aware of our own biases, I believe I am (though I'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree) Because like I mentioned before I have quite a big obsession with being objective and in order to be so I have to be aware of my biases. Because I believe that if I am not objective anything I write is worthless.

Not everyone who dislikes Theon is emotionally stunted and lacks reading comprehension abilities. I said that to people who have shown to not understand him through the things they have said about him. The point is not that they dislike him, the point is that they dislike him BECAUSE they misunderstand him. Or they misunderstand him because they dislike him, one of the two. btw, I do not say that to be harsh, I say that to try and open these people's eyes because at this point it's the only thing I can think of doing. But if I hurt someone's feelings I appologise, that is not my intension.

[BlueBard]

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

That's what I've been saying so how exactly do I not see that? I've litarly said a million times that just cause I understand him doesn't mean I condone him.
 

Then how is it that they keep making wrong statements about him that are directly disproved by the text?
 

it's not but people are shaped by their experiences, it's what makes them into who they are (certainly their experiences at a young age) And Theon's identity crisis can be traced back to his childhood. It's a big part of him, especially in clash because his support system fell down and his identity suddenly became very unstable and he does what he does trying to create new support and failing. The events in Winterfell are basically him being stuck in a vicious circle of doom and getting deeper and deeper because he's not self aware enough to end it, neither is he mature enough.
 

I never said it excuses him, nothing excuses killing someone else (except if you really are unaware of your actions perhaps) it doesn't bother me that people condemn him for what he did, it doesn't bother even bother me when people call him evil perse because if that is there standard for an evil person fine. What does bother me is that they say things about Theon that aren't true, like that he is cruel, that he doesn't  feel guilty, that he doesn't feel empathy for anyone else, take your pick of the things people have said even just in this thread that aren't true. All of that shows a misunderstanding of the character so I try to explain to them why it's a misunderstanding, I explain Theon to them and yet they just repeat the same things over and over, that is frustrating.

and this is besides the point but because you brought it up: I generally don't like characters who protect the innocents over themselves because I often consider them unrealistic. That said, I don't remember someone in asoiaf who does that, i'm not saying it didn't happen but could you give an example?
 

You can have compassion for him while also condemning his actions... Also, the thing is that a lot of people seem to think that humans are perfect or something? That we should be completely selfless, completely without flaws. We are not, that's why Theon is so realistic. And I think that's why so many people don't like him, his issues are extremely universal but they're generally also the kind of issues you rather don't admit that you have. A lot of people are in denial about them (just like Theon is) so he kinda makes for a nice mirror that they don't want to look into so they end up completely rejecting that he does anything because of those issues (that deep down they know they share with him) but he must do it because he's evil, or cruel. They simplefy his reasons because that's much easier to deal with.

I'd be very interested to hear how you "objectively" know this. 

 

Even if I accepted your argument that Theon's identity crisis is the reason why he betrays Robb and kills the Millers boys and possibly their mother, who he has slept with, don't you think Theon's actions in response to his identity crisis are over the top and disproportionate?

 

 

[INCBlackbird]

7 minutes ago, BlueBard said:

I'd be very interested to hear how you "objectively" know this.

Even if I accepted your argument that Theon's identity crisis is the reason why he betrays Robb and kills the Millers boys and possibly their mother, who he has slept with, don't you think Theon's actions in response to his identity crisis are over the top and disproportionate?

Because i've studied litarly every line in his chapters several times and analysed it from a psychological perspective. Before I got obsessed with Theon I knew very little about psychology. So what I did was for example I notice that he smiles to hide other emotions, and I litarly looked that up and discovered it's called reaction formation and is a defense mechanism. that is how I went about analysing him, I started from what I noticed he did in the text. From what he said, from what he thought, from how he responded te the situations he was in and it ended in a 300 page book on his character.  That is how I objectivly know.

Of course his actions are over the top.

[singedbylife]

I believe that when people truly repent, they can and should be forgiven for their past crimes - they should be punished for them yes, but after that: they should be given a clean slate (only if they have regretted all they've done.) 

Theon is a character who regrets all his past ill deeds and - in my book - he has been more than enough punished for them. I don't care how he came to this epiphany, all I know is that the Theon we leave in the last book is a new man. A new person (to use the show's Ramsay Bolton's words.) 

What I find fascinating with the books (and the show) is that it shows us that to most people (and characters) there are more sides than just being "good", "evil" etc. It shows us that characters grow, evolve, change. 

 

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

You are again missing the point. The point is not whether or not it was just, the point is whether or not it was a betrayal. Cat didn't owe the Lannisters anything therefor not a betrayal, Theon didn't owe the Starks anything therefore not a betrayal.

Again, Theon didn't take Winterfell in retaliation where do you get that idea from? If he wanted to take revenge he could have, but that clearly wasn't the point since he was kinda obsessed with getting everyone to like him.

He betrayed Robb, yes I already said that. He didn't have much of a choice though, did you expect him to chose Robb over his own family? His father made the decision to attack the north at that point Theon had no choice but to betray his friend. Which is super tragic considering that Robb was one of the only people who ever gave Theon what he needed.

When Theon gets home to Pyke, he's convinced he'll be welcomed with open arms and have the home he wanted. He acts/ thinks macho and arrogant to overcompensate for his insecureties because he subconciously believes that is the type of attitude his father will respect. Futhermore he's very excited about the plan he came up with to fight against the Lannisters at Robb's side. The casterly rock thing is an extension of that, he has no emotional attachment to the place it's a part of feeling like his future is bright. It's only after he's been humiliated and it's been made clear that his father doesn't trust him and he's a stranger in Pyke as well that he suddenly wants Winterfell. Because if Pyke won't accept him, Winterfell must. And yes, like I said he tries to make it his home in the most inefficient way possible for the all the reasons you pointed out. Yet, it's very clear that that's his intension. He constantly thinks about how Ned would do things and how he should follow his example so that the people of Winterfell will like him. He's constantly concerned with how they hate him and that he can't change it. His plan was "I'll take Winterfell and I'll lead them like Eddard Stark so they'll love me"
But obviously that didn't work out.

The people in winterfell aren't unimportant perse, they are just not the starks. if you want to say that he betrayed them, then say he betrayed them, not the Starks. Also, if you look at Theon's reactions you can see that he doesn't think they're insiginifcant, he's constantly internally going "I had no choice, I had no choice, I had no choice" And of course the Starks would see it as a betrayal but are you telling me that they're not biased?

He does get some unusually harsh treatment, he gets it all the time. Especially on this forum. Theon has been called a mass murderer in this thread. He's been called Evil several times in this thread. Yet a bunch of people who have killed way more people than Theon are constantly called heroes, how is that not getting a harsh treatment?

I am not missing the point but I think you are.  Of course Theon betrayed Robb, the Starks, the people of Winterfell and the Northmen.  He betrayed them because he was a friend, a confidant, an ally, even one of them, part of their councils and strategic planning, campaigning and fighting with them, performing a leadership role and they trusted him and he betrayed that trust.  It really is that simple.  I sincerely hope you don't turn round to people in real life who trusted you for years and say "but I didn't owe you anything so I didn't betray you when I turned on you".  Trust is the issue here not a legal contract.  Morality and integrity are the issues not an oath of allegiance.  The World of Westeros calls Theon Turncloak for a reason.

No, Theon did not take Winterfell in retaliation.  That's precisely my point in rejecting your analogy between Cat arresting Tyrion (and it is arresting and holding him over for trial not kidnapping) and Theon attacking Winterfell.  Cat was responding to an attack on her son, Theon was making the first hostile act and attacking an ally and people he had grown up with.  Your attempt to say no one "owed" anyone anything in either scenario so each person's actions should be judged the same way is wrong.

He betrayed Robb, yes, but his father ordered him to raid the Stony Shore and nothing more.  That would have satisfied Balon and is all he should have done.  Yet he wanted to make his mark, to win glory and his father's approval and he chose to attack Winterfell to establish himself as a credible rival to Asha as Balon's heir.  The attack on Winterfell and all the grief that flow are a consequence of Theon's ambition, pride and generally self-serving and callous character, not a requirement out of loyalty to his family and are precisely why readers have such a shitty opinion of him.

How can you concede he betrayed the Castlefolk of Winterfell but not the Starks?  Are Bran and Rickon not at Winterfell or Starks?  And once Theon kills the miller's boys they are fugitives who will be executed on capture to hide that crime. It seems you and I have different ideas of betrayal.  And I'll just say again that you don't make a place your home by killing the people who live there.  What Theon wanted was a castle, a title, a power base and the wealth, prestige and influence that came with it.  He did not give a damn about the people and his emotional connection to the place is a lot weaker than you make out, it's more opportunism and a chance for him to feel important.

I feel you make far too many excuses for Theon.  The single incident that best sums up Theon for me is when he shoots Todric.  His men have raided the fishing village on the Stony Shore and are seizing plunder.  One of them, Todric, is drunk and Theon intends to shoot the alehorn out of his hand to give his men "a shot to talk about" but Todric lurches at the last moment and Theon puts the arrow in his belly instead.  Theon's reaction is annoyance that Todric "spoiled" his attempt to impress his men.  He doesn't give a damn and he doesn't feel any remorse that he has killed one of his own men, he just feels annoyed that he couldn't show off as he had planned.  This is Theon in a nutshell: no idenity crisis in sight, no impossible decisions being forced on him by other people, no excuses to be made - just a wretched, selfish, vain, boastful and callous individual.

No, Theon gets judged fairly.  You just have a particularly odd way of looking at him.  And if you have to fall back on complaining that other people have done bad things too but don't get the same opprobium then you are tacitly admitting that the judgment of Theon is correct but you have an emotional connection to the character that prevents you from liking that judgment (and you should read some more threads on major characters if you think they aren't called out over their actions).

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

25 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Because i've studied litarly every line in his chapters several times and analysed it from a psychological perspective. Before I got obsessed with Theon I knew very little about psychology. So what I did was for example I notice that he smiles to hide other emotions, and I litarly looked that up and discovered it's called reaction formation and is a defense mechanism. that is how I went about analysing him, I started from what I noticed he did in the text. From what he said, from what he thought, from how he responded te the situations he was in and it ended in a 300 page book on his character.  That is how I objectivly know.

Of course his actions are over the top.

I am not sure you can use real life psychology on a fictional character. I am sure GRRM has a good grasp on human behaviour, but he did not write these characters for a psychological analyse.

You read Theon's smiles as reaction formation, but we do not know if that was GRRM's intention. Therefore you can not claim that you are 100% right and all the rest of us read Theon wrong.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Than you are reading my posts wrong because I never made excuses for him. Like I said many times, just because I understand him doesn't mean I excuse him. The problem is that a lot of people don't seem to understand him. they reduce his character to a black and white villain, or at the very least they reduce his actions to something black and white, like you just did here "Theon killed the miller boys to save face and for no other reason" Do you see how black and white that is? you're leaving out the context of the world he lives in, Theon's background and so on. Humans are not that simple. And no person is the same so you can't judge someone else looking from your own perspective. I know that humans have the tendency to make everything simple so they can put others into boxes but I thought that people who read asoiaf wouldn't do that considering the fact that all the characters are so complex.

And yes, like I said I condemn his actions while feeling empathy for him. yet several people on here have already admitted that they turn off their empathy for Theon so there you go.

Theon killed the Miller's boys to save face and there's no other grand context or purpose in that killing as you state. There's no white or grey about the act, it's a purely evil act conducted by a callous and depraved individual. Theon feeling remorse after the fact or growing up with an identify crisis, doesn't make that act any less despicable. Referring to context and the world he lives in regards to his killing of those boys, is all just making excuses for Theon and nothing else.  Anyway I'm done debating you on this subject. Seems to me it's going nowhere. You don't seem to be convincing anyone and no one can change your mind. 

 

 

[INCBlackbird]

18 minutes ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

I am not sure you can use real life psychology on a fictional character. I am sure GRRM has a good grasp on human behaviour, but he did not write these characters for a psychological analyse.

You read Theon's smiles as reaction formation, but we do not know if that was GRRM's intention. Therefore you can not claim that you are 100% right and all the rest of us read Theon wrong.

GRRM does not need to know what it's called to know that people do it. I didn't know that what Theon was doing was called reaction formation yet I knew exactly what he was doing. it's such basic human psychology that I'm surprised not everyone grasps it.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Theon killed the Miller's boys to save face and there's no other grand context or purpose in that killing as you state. There's no white or grey about the act, it's a purely evil act conducted by a callous and depraved individual. Theon feeling remorse after the fact or growing up with an identify crisis, doesn't make that act any less despicable. Referring to context and the world he lives in regards to his killing of those boys, is all just making excuses for Theon and nothing else.  Anyway I'm done debating you on this subject. Seems to me it's going nowhere. You don't seem to be convincing anyone and no one can change your mind. 

 

 

Of course there is, there always is. Do you think that the things we do, especially the things that seem illogical to others don't have a reason behind it. that they're that simple. Nothing is that simple when it comes to humans beings. Everything is connected, we would not be who we are if we didn't have the childhood we had. we would not react the way we did if we didn't have this or that issue. you can't just take something someone does out of the context of who they are and treat it as something separate then go back and jugde that person according to what you took out of context. Either you simply judge the action and refrain from judging the person or you judge the person in their context.

[the trees have eyes]

6 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Of course there is, there always is. Do you think that the things we do, especially the things that seem illogical to others don't have a reason behind it. that they're that simple. Nothing is that simple when it comes to humans beings. Everything is connected, we would not be who we are if we didn't have the childhood we had. we would not react the way we did if we didn't have this or that issue. you can't just take something someone does out of the context of who they are and treat it as something separate then go back and jugde that person according to what you took out of context. Either you simply judge the action and refrain from judging the person or you judge the person in their context.

Like a lot of your posts this is lecturing drivel.  Everyone understands the context around the murder of the miller's boys perfectly well and they find no reason to empathise with poor little Theon over how people would laugh at him for being weak.  They might have just a tiny little bit of empathy as no one likes to look foolish or weak but this natural empathy is curtailed by the fact that he has brought this on himself by antagonising and brutalising people and it is by far outweighed and countermanded by their empathy with his victims. 

And that seems the big problem with your self-declared obsession with Theon: in your desire to tell people what the right way is to read him or understand him you draw an equivalence between feeling empathy for him and his victims.  Because you see Theon as a victim himself.  We feel empathy for the miller's boys but we are disgusting for not feeling empathy for Theon - please!!!  I think you misunderstand empathy: it is a natural instinct but there are degrees of empathy and you may empathise to an extent with a person but when that person murders someone else you may or may not cease empathising with them but you should empathise with the victim far more and condemn the perpetrator regardless. 

You also confess that you don't judge a person by their actions but how they feel about them which is utterly fucking useless if person A burns a city to the ground and then feels guilty.  Who cares if they feel bad or not, they just destroyed a city and they are responsible for their actions whether they had a happy childhood or not.  You know you are an exception here and it is beyond weird that knowing you are taking an extreme, even contrarian position you still persist in telling everyone that you alone understand how to read Theon right.  What I take from that is that you are knowlingly and deliberately choosing to assess Theon differently to how you know everyone else will but in spite of this you are determined to tell everyone you are right.  That is going as well as anyone could predict.

[INCBlackbird]

5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Like a lot of your posts this is lecturing drivel.  Everyone understands the context around the murder of the miller's boys perfectly well and they find no reason to empathise with poor little Theon over how people would laugh at him for being weak.  They might have just a tiny little bit of empathy as no one likes to look foolish or weak but this natural empathy is curtailed by the fact that he has brought this on himself by antagonising and brutalising people and it is by far outweighed and countermanded by their empathy with his victims.

clearly you don't understand the context, or you deliberatly take him out of it to judge him, which is the oppesite that you should be doing when judging a person. And you admit it yourself, you say that you don't empathise with Theon in that situation, that is taking him out of context. When you judge a person you should judge from the perspective of that person that is empathising with them. if you don't, you're deliberatly chosing to take them out of the context that is needed to judge them.

"and it is by far outweighed and countermanded by their empathy with his victims." So you mean to say that you have to pick a side to empathise with? This is again something a lot of people do, to pick a side and simplify the other side to be able to put everything in a neat little box. What i'm trying to do is make you aware of this because it's not a good thing. I don't need to pick a side, I can feel empathy for both.
 

16 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

10 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

And that seems the big problem with your self-declared obsession with Theon: in your desire to tell people what the right way is to read him or understand him you draw an equivalence between feeling empathy for him and his victims.  Because you see Theon as a victim himself.  We feel empathy for the miller's boys but we are disgusting for not feeling empathy for Theon - please!!!  I think you misunderstand empathy: it is a natural instinct but there are degrees of empathy and you may empathise to an extent with a person but when that person murders someone else you may or may not cease empathising with them but you should empathise with the victim far more and condemn the perpetrator regardless. 

Because Theon is a victim, I don't see how you or anyone could say he's not one? Does one seize to be a victim when they do something bad? Can a person not be a victim and a criminal at the same time? Again, I point to the thing I pointed out above about simplifying something to put it in a neat little box.

Of course there are degrees of empathy and like sweetsunray pointed out people can turn off their empathy sometimes and that is wrong. And the reason  they do that is again to simplify things because it's easier to deal with simple things. Humans do it with everything and it's a problem.

And if you are judging the perpetrator that is who you should be empathising with, this should be obvious, cause you're judging "them", not the victim, them.

Besides, if you don't empathise with him, it's impossible to understand him so how exactly can you claim to understand him while admitting that you turned off your empathy when judging him?
 

16 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You also confess that you don't judge a person by their actions but how they feel about them which is utterly fucking useless if person A burns a city to the ground and then feels guilty.  Who cares if they feel bad or not, they just destroyed a city and they are responsible for their actions whether they had a happy childhood or not.  You know you are an exception here and it is beyond weird that knowing you are taking an extreme, even contrarian position you still persist in telling everyone that you alone understand how to read Theon right.  What I take from that is that you are knowlingly and deliberately choosing to assess Theon differently to how you know everyone else will but in spite of this you are determined to tell everyone you are right.  That is going as well as anyone could predict.

Yes because I'm not judging the actions i'm judging the person and what tells us more about a person simply what they do? or how they came to do it? how they feel about doing it? Just the action tells us very little about the person him/herself.

Since I'm the one who analysed him I do think I understand him better than people who clearly don't like his character yes. I don't analyse characters I don't like, and I also don't go into those characters threads to talk about how horrible a person they are without even taking the time to analyse their chapters.

[the trees have eyes]

29 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

clearly you don't understand the context, or you deliberatly take him out of it to judge him, which is the oppesite that you should be doing when judging a person. And you admit it yourself, you say that you don't empathise with Theon in that situation, that is taking him out of context. When you judge a person you should judge from the perspective of that person that is empathising with them. if you don't, you're deliberatly chosing to take them out of the context that is needed to judge them.

"and it is by far outweighed and countermanded by their empathy with his victims." So you mean to say that you have to pick a side to empathise with? This is again something a lot of people do, to pick a side and simplify the other side to be able to put everything in a neat little box. What i'm trying to do is make you aware of this because it's not a good thing. I don't need to pick a side, I can feel empathy for both.
 

Because Theon is a victim, I don't see how you or anyone could say he's not one? Does one seize to be a victim when they do something bad? Can a person not be a victim and a criminal at the same time? Again, I point to the thing I pointed out above about simplifying something to put it in a neat little box.

Of course there are degrees of empathy and like sweetsunray pointed out people can turn off their empathy sometimes and that is wrong. And the reason  they do that is again to simplify things because it's easier to deal with simple things. Humans do it with everything and it's a problem.

And if you are judging the perpetrator that is who you should be empathising with, this should be obvious, cause you're judging "them", not the victim, them.

Besides, if you don't empathise with him, it's impossible to understand him so how exactly can you claim to understand him while admitting that you turned off your empathy when judging him?
 

Yes because I'm not judging the actions i'm judging the person and what tells us more about a person simply what they do? or how they came to do it? how they feel about doing it? Just the action tells us very little about the person him/herself.

Since I'm the one who analysed him I do think I understand him better than people who clearly don't like his character yes. I don't analyse characters I don't like, and I also don't go into those characters threads to talk about how horrible a person they are without even taking the time to analyse their chapters.

Utter baloney.  I understand the context perfectly.  Everyone understands the context perfectly.  You alone choose to make excuses for Theon here.  I have seen no other person do this so it seems you misrepresent or misunderstand the context and that's your problem not everyone else's.

This is just wrong factually and morally. Anyone can empathise with someone for looking foolish because they know how that feels and it's not nice.  That is a natural reaction that is completely outweighed in any normal human being by the person they felt some small empathy for taking a drastic and appalling course of action.  It's simply having the ability to process new information, reform judgments and differentiate between feeling a small amount of empathy for someone feeling foolish and feeling a huge amount of empathy for that person's victims.  This is not about taking it out of context!!  What is completely lacking from your arguments is any abilty to consider the point of view of or empathise with the victims.  It's like speaking to Theon himself, only his concerns are valid.  By considering only how we should empathise with Theon and weirdly determining that empathising with his victims is irrelevant it seems that you completely distort the context that you need to assess things objectively.

You may feel it is a good thing to feel empathy for everyone and to avoid "picking a side".  Empathy is natural in healthy humans so I can aree with you that much.  Where I think you are flat out wrong is being unable to make any kind of judgment based on the level of empathy you feel for a character and how much that excuses or whitewashes their actions.  Empathy is not a binary toggle and this insistence that we should empathise with Theon the child murderer and assess "the context" of his actions misses the point that our condemnation of his actions far outweighs any empathy for his childhood or fear of looking foolish.

You keep talking about other people simplifying things.  This is rubbish.  We don't "turn off empathy" in order to make choices simpler, we differentiate between a killer and his victims.  Particularly when we know the circumstances of those events and the motivations behind them we don't need to pretend the situation is particularly confusing or complex.  Unless of course we don't like the conclusion we reach and start looking for excuses like you are.

Telling us we are not empathising with Theon so we can't judge him or aren't being fair to him is poppycock.  Stop acting like people don't understand Theon: we are in his head throughout ACOK so we know what is going on up there. 

And some actions do tell us a lot about people.  Child murder being one of the most obvious.  Since you say you don't believe in punishment what would you do with Theon?

"Since I'm the one who analysed him I do think I understand him better than people",.  Get over yourself.  You have read the same books as everyone else and that's all there is to it.  You reach vastly different conclusions to everyone else and you might wonder if it's you who are missing something.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Utter baloney.  I understand the context perfectly.  Everyone understands the context perfectly.  You alone choose to make excuses for Theon here.  I have seen no other person do this so it seems you misrepresent or misunderstand the context and that's your problem not everyone else's.

If you understand the context then you are deliberatly taking him out of it.
 

5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is just wrong factually and morally. Anyone can empathise with someone for looking foolish because they know how that feels and it's not nice.  That is a natural reaction that is completely outweighed in any normal human being by the person they felt some small empathy for taking a drastic and appalling course of action.  It's simply having the ability to process new information, reform judgments and differentiate between feeling a small amount of empathy for someone feeling foolish and feeling a huge amount of empathy for that person's victims.  This is not about taking it out of context!!  What is completely lacking from your arguments is any abilty to consider the point of view of or empathise with the victims.  It's like speaking to Theon himself, only his concerns are valid.  By considering only how we should empathise with Theon and weirdly determining that empathising with his victims is irrelevant it seems that you completely distort the context that you need to assess things objectively.

Then I am not a "normal human being" which tbh, i'm completely find with.  You are again talking about taking sides, Theon gets a small amount of empathy while his victims get a big ammount of empathy. That is picking a side. That's like if someone murdered someone's family member and the judge judges from the perspective of the family members only when they are not judging them but they are judging the killer. That's not an accurate judgement.

Empathising with his victims is irrelevant as you are not judging them, you are judging Theon.
 

10 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You may feel it is a good thing to feel empathy for everyone and to avoid "picking a side".  Empathy is natural in healthy humans so I can aree with you that much.  Where I think you are flat out wrong is being unable to make any kind of judgment based on the level of empathy you feel for a character and how much that excuses or whitewashes their actions.  Empathy is not a binary toggle and this insistence that we should empathise with Theon the child murderer and assess "the context" of his actions misses the point that our condemnation of his actions far outweighs any empathy for his childhood or fear of looking foolish.
 

It's not about what outweighs the other, it's about empathising with Theon in the moment he commits the action. And therefor understanding why he did it and that certainly is connected to his childhood. What you do is break off your empathy the moment he does something wrong so you can judge what he does outside of the context and therefor it's easier to judge. This study explains it better than I ever could: http://scholarship.law.uc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=uclr
 

20 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You keep talking about other people simplifying things.  This is rubbish.  We don't "turn off empathy" in order to make choices simpler, we differentiate between a killer and his victims.  Particularly when we know the circumstances of those events and the motivations behind them we don't need to pretend the situation is particularly confusing or complex.  Unless of course we don't like the conclusion we reach and start looking for excuses like you are.

sweetsunray was the one who talked about turning off empathy and I agree with her on that that people do this. You said that you feel more emapthy for the victims therefore you are at the very least not impartial. And of course the situation is complex, because humans are complex, do you seriously think that any of us are simple?
 

21 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Telling us we are not empathising with Theon so we can't judge him or aren't being fair to him is poppycock.  Stop acting like people don't understand Theon: we are in his head throughout ACOK so we know what is going on up there.

Emapthy means to put yourself in someone's shoes, therefore if you don't empathise with him you cannot understand him and therefore you can't judge him from an objective standpoint.

23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

And some actions do tell us a lot about people.  Child murder being one of the most obvious.  Since you say you don't believe in punishment what would you do with Theon?
 

Pretty much anyone is capable of doing horrible things like torture, that has been proven in several experiments. I don't think child murder is an exception to this. Therefore the action in itself tells us little.
 

24 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

"Since I'm the one who analysed him I do think I understand him better than people",.  Get over yourself.  You have read the same books as everyone else and that's all there is to it.  You reach vastly different conclusions to everyone else and you might wonder if it's you who are missing something.

There's a difference between just reading a book and analysing a character.