the trees have eyes Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 20 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: 1) it's not about force it's about being in a stressful situation and making the wrong choice, we do it all the time, but most of the time people's lives are thankfully not in the balance. In Theon's case they were. 2) Most people haven't been in a situation where they had to make a choice between the life of children and everything they hold dear. In most cases the stakes aren't that high for us. Especially in the 21st century western world. 3) I believe most people are capable of it, it's just easier not to admit it to yourself. So for me the troubling line of thought is the denial. And no I'm not implying that you are capable of it, I don't know you so I can't know that. You might be one of the like 5% who aren't capable of it. 4) did I not say this in my previous message already? why are you making me repeat myself again? it's not about knowing what is right and what is wrong, it's about learning how to deal with hard choices being put in front of you and how to make the right one. It's about becoming self-aware and mature enough to deal with what life throws at you. 5) Do you define yourself by your mistakes? Would you thnk it's ok for others to do that to you? I really hope not because I don't think our mistakes is what should define us. What is important is what we learn from those mistakes. 6) understanding the impact and caring yes, that is what tells us something but we were talking about the impact in itself, the action in itself, not anything arround this. I specifically specified this in my previous post. Again I have to go with why do I have to repeat myself? Why can't you just argue against what I said instead of twisting my argument into something else to than argue against that? it's tiresome. And furthermore there's no point to it whatsoever. On this forum perhaps (though it's filled with people who excuse torture so what do you know) also I don't "feel" anything. I talk to people outside this forum. If you don't believe, me go and check tumblr, check reddit. Someone on this very thread even shared a qoute from Preston Jacobs with me where he said that deep down Theon is a good person. Most of these people are just smarter than me and don't get in arguments about it because they know it's useless. 7) Do you really think that it's a good thing to pick a side? I know it's human nature to do so but there's a lot of things about human nature that aren't great. This is one of them, because picking a side comes with a confirmation bias. Also, where do you get the idea that the miller's boys don't matter to me? I just told you that I don't pick a side, do you just assume that it's impossible not to pick a side because you're only looking at it from your perspective and you can't imagine not picking a side? 8) How is any of this even an argument against what I said... I don't disagree with any of this. Also... Theon isn't "peachy" in my "weird view". He is a severly damaged person who was not at all ready handle anything and made some horrible mistakes. 9) But this is the issue, I think that anyone's judgement of anyone should be based on their empathy (and consequently) understanding of them. If you say, empathy for Theon only goes so far in judging him aren't you saying that you ignore your empathy or at least partially in making a judgement. Or did I understand you wrong? 10) And no I don't think that everyone who reaches different conclusions have failed to understand Theon. But I think that you are because you have said things about Theon that are simply incorrect. Like the Cersei thing. That shows me that you haven't understood how his mind works. That's why i'm trying to explain him to you but I know that you don't want to know because your mind is set. 11) @the bold: Did you misread what I wrote or do you deliberatly twist my words. Everytime you say that I said something that I didn't say and I have to explain it again is a waste of time. So here I go: What I said is that Theon's actions (in themselves) don't tell us a lot about him. For example because a parent who is put in a position where they can either watch their own child die or kill a child they don't know and chose the latter also killed a child, they commited the same action as Theon did, however it's a very different situation. The action in itself tells us little, the situation, motivation, how they feel about it and so on that is what tells us something. Same exact thing with the impact of actions. Also I never said that you shouldn't consider his victims, I said that empathy for his victims is irrelevant on reaching any kind of conclusions on Theon because empathy is about understanding a person from their point of view, does another person's point of view tell you anything about Theon? I don't think so. his point of view does however, his is the only one that can tell you exactly what's going on in his head. 12) @Todric: what is there to say? he accidentally killed him because he disobeyed him and didn't feel bad. He's the only one he didn't feel bad about. 13) Really? because out of the 4 I remember who were put in front of a difficult choice when it comes to killing children 3 did it. Neither Theon nor Jaime are callous or cruel. Self-serving perhaps but we all are, we are selfish creatures, our basic need is to survive. And weak... I think it's gross to call mentally unstable people weak so I'm not even gonna comment. Davos is the exception, jon is self-aware and very mature for his age and Ned is stil la hypocrite. 14) I've explained this already several times, not going to repeat myself. it's clear that you don't want to know. 15) And yes Cersei is a narcissist and possibly a psychopath, what is your point? (I love her too btw, she's in my top 5, super interesting character) 16) If it's not about the Starks then what is it about? Because like I said people are fine with other characters doing it. What makes Theon so special that he's the devil for killing some people in a series where 90% of the characters have done the same or worse. 17) The context of a violent world where violence is an everyday occurance, especially when you're highborn and it's war time. The stakes are high and the results are high as well. 18) I already talked about Todric, I already said that he doesn't feel bad so I don't really see how I have to go into it more but ok then. First of all an identity crisis is not something that just goes away and comes back. Theon is fixing his identity crisis now but in all of acok he certainly had it. There is not nearly as much pressure as there is with the miller boys but Theon is a leader and a leader has to demand respect, Theon isn't very good at that because he's insecure as hell so there certainly is pressure. And the Stark bias is about Theon in general. It's about the fact that Theon "betrayed" the Starks, which is what always comes back, however when I start argueing against that suddenly the miller's boys come up, probably because people realise that they have no point with saying "Theon betrayed the Starks" as they realise deep down that he had little choice but they feel resentment and need something else to justify it so they go for the miller boys, when I contest that you went for Todric. it's just searching for something to hate him for. 1) Theon's life is not in the balance. Don't be so ridiculous. Immediately after the murders he is surrounded by his men and in control of Winterfell. Asha quite sensibly tells him to leave Winterfell as, indeed, most of his men do but he doesn't. Murdering the miller's boys is not done with his life in the balance, this is simply baloney. 2) Except he isn't either. This is false. He wants to avoid looking foolish. He cares so much for the people of WF that he kills a lot of them and tbh he only wants WF to have a powerbase and to prove himself to his father and set himself up as a powerplayer with a claim to the seastone chair. Sure he enjoys fucking Kyra in Ned's bed but that's getting one over Ned not not exactly the same as WF being all that he holds dear. You go way too far in loooking for excuses for the murders. It's absolutely false to say that expecting him not to murder all those people is "expecting the impossible". Absolute tripe. 3) Ok........ Not much to say there other than you will obviously be much more prepared to be "understanding" towards Theon than the majority of other people but admitting you could murder children is a fairly troubling stance to take to suport your fictional character. 4) You did. It's when you STOP saying it that we will get somewhere. Theon lacks the self-awareness and maturity to not be able to murder children? Please. The guy can just leave Winterfell any time he likes but his ego can't take the thought of the failure. His pride is more important than the lives of all those children and that's pretty much it. 5) Child murderers are defined by their murders, yes. WTF else would you expect? It's like complaining that Thomas Hamilton was defined by Dunblane when there was so much more to him. What don't you understand about this? People are defined by the impact of their actions and the consequences of those actions on other people, particularly so when they commit atrocities. Maybe Eva Braun thought Hitler was a warm and caring person but, you know what, he's kind of defined by the Holocaust. What the F**K did he learn from the Holocasut that we should consider in reaching our opinion of him? Good people don't murder innocent children, it's not compatible with the idea of being a good person whatever you or Preston Jacobs have to say. 6) What's tiresome is that you keep saying that we can only consider Theon in reaching an opinion of him rather than acknowledging the impact on his victims. This isn't how people form opinions. It just would not matter if Hitler felt bad about the Holocaust, the fact was he was prepared to do it and that is what defines him. What's equally tiresome is that you keep saying that a person's actions don't tell us anything about that person: if you can finally see that a person's actions do tell us something maybe we will have got somewhere. 7) This is utterly reprehensible. If you can't see that "picking a side" between a child murderer and his victims is a basic human response then you are either lying to yourself or seriously troubled. Put it this way: if you came upon Theon and his men about to murder the miller's boys and you had the ability to stop them, would you? See that's picking a side. Or would you just hang back because picking sides is wrong? Why is it so hard for you to understand that "picking a side" after the murders is both a natural response and intellectually correct? 8) He was ready to handle things, he just made the wrong decsions. When the Magnar ordered Jon to kill the old man they encoutered at Queenscrown Jon refused and had to fight for his life. When Reek suggested they murder the miller's boys Theon should have rejected the idea. Simple as that. 9) I have repeatedly said that you have to do more than empathise only with Theon to reach a balanced assessment. If you refuse to empathise with his victims and to consider the impact he has on them - and it's hardly like the impact of killing someone is something he can't understand - then any view you reach of Theon is utterly lopsided and worthless. 10) Bullshit. I never referenced Cersei, you did. I referenced Todric. Burn your strawman on your own time. 11) Bullshit. The fact that Theon murders two children tells us a lot about him. You think it doesn't but actually it does. I referenced Ned, Davos and Jon but you are determined to see Theon as the norm and the others as the exception rather than the other way round. Which begs the question why Theon gets such stick both in story and on the forum. The whole point re empathy for the victims is that what goes on in Theon's head alone in terms of regret or guilt (where or when there is any) is utterly inadequate to judge him. I have said repeatedly that you do not live or act in isolation and that the impact of your actions on other people is an integral part of the experience of life and, quite obviously, how people will react to you and form opinions of you. Why you don't get this is the mystery. I have tried to suggest you are attempting a clinical diagnosis, in which the patient's mind is all that matters, but you rejected this and consider that in order to reach an opinion of Theon as a person we don't need to consider the victims. You know some justice systems have victim impact assessments read out before sentencing, right, so the impact on the victim and their family of what the perpetrator did is made crystal clear? This may not matter to you in forming an opinoin of Theon but it actually matters in how people are judged and treated in the real world. 12) Don't be disingenuous. What is going on in Theon's head as he attempts to show off and his reaction when Todric spoils his plan - by Theon killing him - tells us a lot about what sort of person he is. The only one? Did he feel bad about Septon Chayle or Mikken? Or was it more important to look powerful and have respect and status than to care about their lives? 13) 3 out of 4? Explain that for me. The whole point is that Theon is NOT in a position where he faces this choice. That's baloney. The only person who feels they are (that i recall) is Jaime and first) he genuinely believes Robert would kill him and Cersei if Bran talked, a view that I think is correct so he is acting out of self-preservation and to protect Cersei though I don't think he gives a damn about heir children and second) as I have already said Cersei of all people disagreed that it was necessary. What strawman accusation is this about calling mentally unstable people weak now? Theon has some issues, you know what most people have some issues. I asked if you were attempting to perform a clinical diagnosis to declare Theon unfit for trial but no you acknowledge he's not and knows what he's doing. So put aside your manufactured offense and consider that some of those terms apply to different characters: I wouldn't call Gregor Clegane weak but I would call him cruel and callous and I wold call Theon weak, indeed his men think him so for putting the noose around Beth Cassel's neck. Theon had a difficult childhood and struggled with who he is. So did Jon. Both share an experience at Winterfell and both turn out to be very different people. Simple as. I'll just point out that Ned did not in fact kill any children so your accusation of hypocrisy is false. As is your attempt to portray Davos as the only person in ASOIAF who won't' or doesn't murder children. It's clearly wrong and a fairly obvious attempt to make Theon's actions appear more mainstream. They aren't. 14) I've heard you explanations and attempted justifications. I find them weak and inadequate. If you want to say "I just don't want to know" then, ok, but I will continue to roll my eyes at the idea that Theon had no choice, was acting to hold on to all he held dear, that expecting him not to murder those children is so unfair of us indeed "expecting the impossible" and that we must not pick a side between a child klller and his victims. That is puke-worthy stuff. 15) It was merely an aside that but my point was that in the one case where we have a person killing a child out of self-preservation / to protect the woman he loves (Jaime), one of the most callous and self-serving characters in the whole series disagreed that it was "necessary". Theon's justification and the threat he faces (well, no threat at all as it happens) is far, far weaker. 16) This is pathetic. I have said repeatedly that other characters are judged for what they do - and you can read Dany/Cat/Tyrion or Sansa/Jon threads to your heart's content to confirm that - and to complain that Theon is treated unfairly is BS. To further argue that murdering children, castle smallfiok and his own men is only an issue because it's the Starks shows your typical lack of empathy for anyone other than Theon and misunderstands the basic reaction most peole have to human suffering which is to blame the person causing the suffering not to look for reasons or lame excuses why we should not blame that person. 17) That's right. The context of a violent world where Davos commits treason to protect Edric Storm from Stannis & Melisandre, where Ned resigns the Handship rather than put his seal to murdering a pregnant teeenage girl, where Jon risks his own life and misison to avoid killing a harmless old man. Yes, this world. Where Theon chooses a different path and is judged because of it. Really, just what don't you get? 18) Utter drivel. And largely a strawman to boot as Theon is judged for actions agaisnt people (including, inter alia, Todric, his own men and the Captain's daughter on the Myraham) not "the Starks" alone. It's a fact that the majority of his actions are against the Stark family, home and smallfolk with grave political, military and human consequences for them but it's not a sign of bias that people consider these actions, it's inevitable. People do in fact have good reason to claim he betrayed the Starks as he did!! He swapped sides when they trusted him as an ally to bring help not attack their lightly guarded castles, and of course Balon ordered him to raid the Stony Shore not seize Winterfell, which effectively destroyed them, certainly in a way that seizing Moat Cailin and Torrhen's Square did not. Pointing out the murder of the miller's boys and Todric is not in fact some shifty way of looking for "reasons to hate Theon" but is a way of exploding your argument of "Stark bias" and it's an absurd argument by you that we should not consider a character's murder of children or his own men in reaching an opinion of him. It's like you don't want to hear anything bad and are annoyed when these things are pointed out to you. No, it's not unfair, it's not Stark bias, it's not a failure to understand Theon "properly", it's a considered opinion that puts more weight on his actions and brutalising of other people than you are prepared to. If only you would......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 23 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: I've explained this already several times, not going to repeat myself. it's clear that you don't want to know. No, it's not that. Not that at all. What should be clear is that I (and others) have read and understood your posts. I still disagree. It's not a matter of another explanation. It's not like if you just repeat yourself some more that suddenly everybody will get it and agree with you. I already got it. I see where you're coming from. I still disagree. (Pet peeve of mine.) Also, many thanks to @the trees have eyes who is saying everything I'm thinking, only so much more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 Right, I'm gonna try to keep this short cause I can see this isn't going anywhere anyways. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 1) Theon's life is not in the balance. Don't be so ridiculous. Immediately after the murders he is surrounded by his men and in control of Winterfell. Asha quite sensibly tells him to leave Winterfell as, indeed, most of his men do but he doesn't. Murdering the miller's boys is not done with his life in the balance, this is simply baloney. I didn't say Theon's life was in the balance I said that everything he holds dear is. That is, belonging somewhere, being loved and so on. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 2) Except he isn't either. This is false. He wants to avoid looking foolish. He cares so much for the people of WF that he kills a lot of them and tbh he only wants WF to have a powerbase and to prove himself to his father and set himself up as a powerplayer with a claim to the seastone chair. Sure he enjoys fucking Kyra in Ned's bed but that's getting one over Ned not not exactly the same as WF being all that he holds dear. You go way too far in loooking for excuses for the murders. It's absolutely false to say that expecting him not to murder all those people is "expecting the impossible". Absolute tripe. This is why I say you don't understand Theon. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this stuff. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 3) Ok........ Not much to say there other than you will obviously be much more prepared to be "understanding" towards Theon than the majority of other people but admitting you could murder children is a fairly troubling stance to take to suport your fictional character. Like I said, I believe pretty much anyone is capable of it given the right circemstances. I don't know if I would be, I can only know that if I'm put into that kind of situation where either I'd do it or I wouldn't. But in our world the chances of that happening are very small luckily. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 4) You did. It's when you STOP saying it that we will get somewhere. Theon lacks the self-awareness and maturity to not be able to murder children? Please. The guy can just leave Winterfell any time he likes but his ego can't take the thought of the failure. His pride is more important than the lives of all those children and that's pretty much it. This wasn't the argument 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 5) Child murderers are defined by their murders, yes. WTF else would you expect? It's like complaining that Thomas Hamilton was defined by Dunblane when there was so much more to him. What don't you understand about this? People are defined by the impact of their actions and the consequences of those actions on other people, particularly so when they commit atrocities. Maybe Eva Braun thought Hitler was a warm and caring person but, you know what, he's kind of defined by the Holocaust. What the F**K did he learn from the Holocasut that we should consider in reaching our opinion of him? Good people don't murder innocent children, it's not compatible with the idea of being a good person whatever you or Preston Jacobs have to say. Other people might define others by the impact they have on others, but that doesn't mean they are right. I am simply against that. Also... just want to point out Godwin's law.... I guess it was bound to happen eventually... 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 6) What's tiresome is that you keep saying that we can only consider Theon in reaching an opinion of him rather than acknowledging the impact on his victims. This isn't how people form opinions. It just would not matter if Hitler felt bad about the Holocaust, the fact was he was prepared to do it and that is what defines him. What's equally tiresome is that you keep saying that a person's actions don't tell us anything about that person: if you can finally see that a person's actions do tell us something maybe we will have got somewhere. I've explained this a million times, if you don't want to grasp what i'm saying that's your problem at this point tbh. Also, like I said, I don't really care how other people form opinions, I simply don't form opinions that way. And i've explained why, I don't really get why you think it's nessacary to question my way of forming opinions, that's a personal choice that I've learned through both my own experiences and thinking about it a lot. Maybe you don't form opinion that way and that's fine but don't you think I have the right to form opinions the way I chose to? 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 7) This is utterly reprehensible. If you can't see that "picking a side" between a child murderer and his victims is a basic human response then you are either lying to yourself or seriously troubled. Put it this way: if you came upon Theon and his men about to murder the miller's boys and you had the ability to stop them, would you? See that's picking a side. Or would you just hang back because picking sides is wrong? Why is it so hard for you to understand that "picking a side" after the murders is both a natural response and intellectually correct? it certainly is human nature but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. There's a lot of things that are human nature that I don't agree with. like prejudicing, stereotyping, the results of first impressions and so on. And to answer your question, of course I would stop them, that's not the same as picking a side when you're judging someone after the facts though, because in that cause you are giving yourself leeway in being biased which will often lead to drawing the wrong conclusions. Now tell me, do you think that being biased when judging someone is a good thing? 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 8) He was ready to handle things, he just made the wrong decsions. When the Magnar ordered Jon to kill the old man they encoutered at Queenscrown Jon refused and had to fight for his life. When Reek suggested they murder the miller's boys Theon should have rejected the idea. Simple as that. He made the wrong decisions because he wasn't ready. What exactly in the text tells you that he was ready? How unstable he is? how paranoid? how agited? How he ends up not knowing the difference between the lies he told himself and the truth anymore? Everything points to Theon not being ready, if you want to I can give you quotes to prove all of this? Do you have any quotes showing that he was ready or are you just saying that cause it's convenient to your argument? 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 9) I have repeatedly said that you have to do more than empathise only with Theon to reach a balanced assessment. If you refuse to empathise with his victims and to consider the impact he has on them - and it's hardly like the impact of killing someone is something he can't understand - then any view you reach of Theon is utterly lopsided and worthless. I don't refuse to consider the impact he has on his victims, where did you get that from? I, again, simply think that empathising with them in order to make a judgement of Theon is irrelevant, because empathy is about understanding and the victims don't need to be understood. Theon is hte one we're judging, he's the one who needs to be understood. we're not judging the victims right? Does it matter to you why they were there? what they've done in their lives? what they thought when he killed them? I would think not, it doesn't matter to me for sure, cause I don't see any reason to judge them, to judge them that would be victim blaming. I'm not judging them they were innocent; i'm judging Theon for what he did and him alone. I really don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp that i have to repeat it a million times. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 10) Bullshit. I never referenced Cersei, you did. I referenced Todric. Burn your strawman on your own time. You said something about Theon that's not accurate for Theon but it is accurate for Cersei, hence why I said that I think you're confusing them. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 13) 3 out of 4? Explain that for me. The whole point is that Theon is NOT in a position where he faces this choice. That's baloney. The only person who feels they are (that i recall) is Jaime and first) he genuinely believes Robert would kill him and Cersei if Bran talked, a view that I think is correct so he is acting out of self-preservation and to protect Cersei though I don't think he gives a damn about heir children and second) as I have already said Cersei of all people disagreed that it was necessary. 3 out of 4: Jaime, Theon and Sandor killed a child/attempted to kill a child/children. Davos didn't. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: What strawman accusation is this about calling mentally unstable people weak now? Theon has some issues, you know what most people have some issues. I asked if you were attempting to perform a clinical diagnosis to declare Theon unfit for trial but no you acknowledge he's not and knows what he's doing. So put aside your manufactured offense and consider that some of those terms apply to different characters: I wouldn't call Gregor Clegane weak but I would call him cruel and callous and I wold call Theon weak, indeed his men think him so for putting the noose around Beth Cassel's neck. Theon had a difficult childhood and struggled with who he is. So did Jon. Both share an experience at Winterfell and both turn out to be very different people. Simple as. I'll just point out that Ned did not in fact kill any children so your accusation of hypocrisy is false. As is your attempt to portray Davos as the only person in ASOIAF who won't' or doesn't murder children. It's clearly wrong and a fairly obvious attempt to make Theon's actions appear more mainstream. They aren't. Theon is fit for trial, that doesn't mean he's not mentally ill. There's only very few cases where mentally ill people aren't fit for trial. I am mentally ill, i have autism and an anxiety disorder, that makes me mentally ill, but if I murdered someone it sure as hell wouldn't mean I wasn't fit for trial. Now you called Theon weak, why exactly do you consider him weak? Jon didn't live in fear of his life for 10 years, he was accepted by most of his family, only Cat and Sansa didn't see him as part of the family, he still felt unwelcome and left, if he felt unwelcome how do you think Theon must have felt? Not to mention that Jon actually did find a family in the night's watch, Theon went home and got bullied. You remember that lovely scene where Littlefinger tells Ned that if he wants Stannis on the throne there will be war and Ned goes "there is no choice" yeah... you're not gonna tell me that Ned didn't know that when there's war children die? What does that tells me? it tells me he's fine with dead children as long as he doesn't have to see it or feel responsible directly. He can just close his eyes to the truth and tell himself it's nessacary because "honor". And yet, Ned is still a better man then most! Also, I found this lovely quote in rereading the first Jon chaper in dance: "Better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." That's Maester Aemon talking about Stannis burning Mance' baby alive. It would seem that he doesn't think it's uncommon at all? 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 14) I've heard you explanations and attempted justifications. I find them weak and inadequate. If you want to say "I just don't want to know" then, ok, but I will continue to roll my eyes at the idea that Theon had no choice, was acting to hold on to all he held dear, that expecting him not to murder those children is so unfair of us indeed "expecting the impossible" and that we must not pick a side between a child klller and his victims. That is puke-worthy stuff. Again if you don't want to understand my points, then ok, there's really nothing to talk about. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 15) It was merely an aside that but my point was that in the one case where we have a person killing a child out of self-preservation / to protect the woman he loves (Jaime), one of the most callous and self-serving characters in the whole series disagreed that it was "necessary". Theon's justification and the threat he faces (well, no threat at all as it happens) is far, far weaker. First of all, I think Cersei says a lot of stuff after the facts are done. Do you think she'd be saying the same thing if Bran had died? I don't think so. That said, I think Theon's justification was that the very least as strong as Jaime's. Not that I think either of them are bad people. For the record I think this forum is way too harsh on Jaime as well. 19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 16) This is pathetic. I have said repeatedly that other characters are judged for what they do - and you can read Dany/Cat/Tyrion or Sansa/Jon threads to your heart's content to confirm that - and to complain that Theon is treated unfairly is BS. To further argue that murdering children, castle smallfiok and his own men is only an issue because it's the Starks shows your typical lack of empathy for anyone other than Theon and misunderstands the basic reaction most peole have to human suffering which is to blame the person causing the suffering not to look for reasons or lame excuses why we should not blame that person. Oh I have read these threads, and I generally think that the haters say a lot of crap about them as well. I recently tried argueing in a Sansa thread because what they were saying was absolutly ridiculous. The difference is however that in those threads it won't be ten against One, it'll be Ten against Ten. Also, if you look all over the internet, you'll see that his betrayal of the Starks always comes back, there's a few people here and there who bring up the people he killed immediatly but in most cases it starts with "he betrayed the starks" then when someone argues against that they go like "well... what about the miller's boys huh?" Also, "the basic reaction most peole have to human suffering which is to blame the person causing the suffering not to look for reasons or lame excuses why we should not blame that person." This is actually one of the problems I have with humanity, it's human nature to do this and I believe it is wrong and judgemental. There's always a reason, most people just don't care about that reason because it's easier just to be angry and scream for revenge. 20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 17) That's right. The context of a violent world where Davos commits treason to protect Edric Storm from Stannis & Melisandre, where Ned resigns the Handship rather than put his seal to murdering a pregnant teeenage girl, where Jon risks his own life and misison to avoid killing a harmless old man. Yes, this world. Where Theon chooses a different path and is judged because of it. Really, just what don't you get? Yep, this world, where sadly people like Davos, Ned and Jon are the exception. You picked out three of the characters. Three of the how many pov's? like 20, how can you say they are not an exception. Not to mention that besides Cersei GRRM doesn't even give pov's to bad people. Ramsay, Gregor, Roose, Tywin... they don't get any chapters of their own. 20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: 18) Utter drivel. And largely a strawman to boot as Theon is judged for actions agaisnt people (including, inter alia, Todric, his own men and the Captain's daughter on the Myraham) not "the Starks" alone. It's a fact that the majority of his actions are against the Stark family, home and smallfolk with grave political, military and human consequences for them but it's not a sign of bias that people consider these actions, it's inevitable. People do in fact have good reason to claim he betrayed the Starks as he did!! He swapped sides when they trusted him as an ally to bring help not attack their lightly guarded castles, and of course Balon ordered him to raid the Stony Shore not seize Winterfell, which effectively destroyed them, certainly in a way that seizing Moat Cailin and Torrhen's Square did not. Pointing out the murder of the miller's boys and Todric is not in fact some shifty way of looking for "reasons to hate Theon" but is a way of exploding your argument of "Stark bias" and it's an absurd argument by you that we should not consider a character's murder of children or his own men in reaching an opinion of him. It's like you don't want to hear anything bad and are annoyed when these things are pointed out to you. No, it's not unfair, it's not Stark bias, it's not a failure to understand Theon "properly", it's a considered opinion that puts more weight on his actions and brutalising of other people than you are prepared to. If only you would......... Point proven thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 19 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said: No, it's not that. Not that at all. What should be clear is that I (and others) have read and understood your posts. I still disagree. It's not a matter of another explanation. It's not like if you just repeat yourself some more that suddenly everybody will get it and agree with you. I already got it. I see where you're coming from. I still disagree. (Pet peeve of mine.) Also, many thanks to @the trees have eyes who is saying everything I'm thinking, only so much more clearly. If you understood it than what is the problem? You can just say you disagree instead of questioning how I form my opinions as if I shouldn't be allowed to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 4 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: If you understood it than what is the problem? You can just say you disagree instead of questioning how I form my opinions as if I shouldn't be allowed to do so. I was saying I disagree and I was also explaining why I disagree. Which, you know, is kind of the point of discussion..... on a discussion forum. It's just that your reaction any time someone says they disagree, is to say that they don't understand your points and that you have to explain it all again. Like this: 4 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: This is why I say you don't understand Theon. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this stuff. I've explained this a million times, if you don't want to grasp what i'm saying that's your problem at this point tbh. Again if you don't want to understand my points, then ok, there's really nothing to talk about. It's perfectly possible for someone to understand Theon and understand your arguments and still hold a different view of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said: I was saying I disagree and I was also explaining why I disagree. Which, you know, is kind of the point of discussion..... on a discussion forum. It's just that your reaction any time someone says they disagree, is to say that they don't understand your points and that you have to explain it all again. Like this: It's perfectly possible for someone to understand Theon and understand your arguments and still hold a different view of him. I don't believe that, I don't believe that if you read his chapters carefully and understand anything about human psychology you can come to the conclusion that he is cruel, that everyone else are just objects to him, or that anything like that. If you have come to those conclusions you are simply wrong. It's like saying that Daenerys had bad intensions or that Jaime doesn't love Cersei. And I have explained why, I can give you the quotes that prove it if you want but I have a feeling that wouldn't do any good anyways. Btw what I was refering to when I talked about the disagreement was about how I judge people. Now if you think I am wrong about Theon why don't you go ahead and quote me some things that prove me wrong? instead of just saying that I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: I don't believe that, I don't believe that if you read his chapters carefully and understand anything about human psychology you can come to the conclusion that he is cruel, that everyone else are just objects to him, or that anything like that. If you have come to those conclusions you are simply wrong. It's like saying that Daenerys had bad intensions or that Jaime doesn't love Cersei. And I have explained why, I can give you the quotes that prove it if you want but I have a feeling that wouldn't do any good anyways. Btw what I was refering to when I talked about the disagreement was about how I judge people. Now if you think I am wrong about Theon why don't you go ahead and quote me some things that prove me wrong? instead of just saying that I am wrong. I am not saying you are wrong - and you don't get to say that I am wrong. I am saying I disagree with your conclusions and that I have an opinion of Theon that is different from yours. I do not see Theon in the same way that you do. And my different opinion is not because I don't understand him, it's not because my opinion is "wrong", it's because my view of him is different, my understanding of him is different. You do not have the right to judge that my understanding is deficient, nor do you have the right to imply that I don't know how to read. I read extremely well, I have read Theon's chapters and I came to an understanding of the character that is not the same as yours. Vive la difference. Got it now? Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 18 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said: I am not saying you are wrong - and you don't get to say that I am wrong. I am saying I disagree with your conclusions and that I have an opinion of Theon that is different from yours. I do not see Theon in the same way that you do. And my different opinion is not because I don't understand him, it's not because my opinion is "wrong", it's because my view of him is different, my understanding of him is different. You do not have the right to judge that my understanding is deficient, nor do you have the right to imply that I don't know how to read. I read extremely well, I have read Theon's chapters and I came to an understanding of the character that is not the same as yours. Vive la difference. Got it now? Sheesh. a certain amount of different reading will always be there for sure, but what you suggest is just so far off (as in what the trees have eyes suggests that you apparently agree to). It's like the person in this very thread who said Arya is a psychopath, it's simply not supported by the text, and Theon being one isn't either. I'll give you some quotes to show it to you. "For Robb himself, Theon did have a certain affection, as for a younger brother... but it would be best not to mention that." "“You will come as well. You command here. The offering should come from you.” That was more than Theon could stomach." "afterward he was sick, remembering all the times they’d sat over a cup of mead talking of hounds and hunting. I had no choice, he wanted to scream at the corpse." "If I die, I die friendless and abandoned. What choice did that leave him, but to live?" "And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him." “Ser Rodrik Cassel and all the lords who have come to his call. I will not run from them. I took this castle and I mean to hold it, to live or die as Prince of Winterfell. But I will not command any man to die with me. If you leave now, before Ser Rodrik’s main force is upon us, there’s still a chance you may win free.” He unsheathed his longsword and drew a line in the dirt. “Those who would stay and fight, step forward.” Not to mention saying that Jeyne's tears were unbearable and saving her as well. Now, does any of that sound like a psychopath to you? btw, where did I say you don't know how to read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 On 08/10/2016 at 0:10 PM, INCBlackbird said: I don't refuse to consider the impact he has on his victims, where did you get that from? I, again, simply think that empathising with them in order to make a judgement of Theon is irrelevant, because empathy is about understanding and the victims don't need to be understood. Theon is hte one we're judging, he's the one who needs to be understood. we're not judging the victims right? Does it matter to you why they were there? what they've done in their lives? what they thought when he killed them? I would think not, it doesn't matter to me for sure, cause I don't see any reason to judge them, to judge them that would be victim blaming. I'm not judging them they were innocent; i'm judging Theon for what he did and him alone. I really don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp that i have to repeat it a million times. Not that @the trees have eyes need any help in clarifying his points, he is doing very well for himself, but I would like to answer this. Theon (and you in his defense) go about killing those he kills by saying "he has no choice". People emphasize with the victims to actually understand the situation, the gravity of the choice, the distance one has to go for either choice available to them. That is why it is of utmost importance to empathize with the victims, otherwise how would one go understanding the whole situation? You are not Theon, to form an objective assessment of the situation, you cannot only look at Theon, you have to look at what is at Theon's disposal as well. What he sees, what he hears, his values. The reason some people said they emphasize less with Theon was not how they emphasize by how much emphasizing they find necessary. Theon is and always will be the person who killed two little kids for a ((n) idiotic) political agenda. He was prepared and self-justified to do so. That is a distance most people think is just TOO FAR, no matter the erason. On 06/10/2016 at 5:05 PM, INCBlackbird said: For example because a parent who is put in a position where they can either watch their own child die or kill a child they don't know and chose the latter also killed a child, they commited the same action as Theon did, however it's a very different situation. The action in itself tells us little, the situation, motivation, how they feel about it and so on that is what tells us something. I have so many problems with this analogy. Firstly, Theon is not put in his position. He brings about the position, he makes a series of decisions that lead to the moment with the kids. Secondly, oh, I would judge. If the said parent does not go above and beyond trying to save both kids, if they do not use every second afforded to them delaying the decision hoping for a change in circumstance, if they do not put every freaking thing dear to them one the line to save both kids, I judge. I do not care in the least bit about how they feel afterwards if they took "making that decision" lightly. You make too light of human life, kid's life at that. These are called hard choices for a reason. High stakes does not just mean the result, it also means the process that must go into that kind of decision making. If for any reason Theon chooses to ignore the pain that the kids and their parents must have gone through because of his issues, that is on him. People do not choose to be put in difficult positions, they either bring them about through actions of their own (like Theon) or are put in there by chance. None the less, how the behave, in addition to the mental process that goes into their decisions, matters the same and is a good indicator of who they are. On 08/10/2016 at 0:10 PM, INCBlackbird said: I think Cersei says a lot of stuff after the facts are done. Do you think she'd be saying the same thing if Bran had died? I don't think so. I, unlike you, am not a fan of Cersei. But I find this quite biased and apologist towards Theon. If either of Jaime or Cersei wanted to make sure Bran died, they would have sent someone to do the deed, they wouldn't have left it to chance. None of them truly wanted him dead though. They have their issues for sure but there is no need to make them more evil than they already are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, shizett said: Not that @the trees have eyes need any help in clarifying his points, he is doing very well for himself, but I would like to answer this. Theon (and you in his defense) go about killing those he kills by saying "he has no choice". People emphasize with the victims to actually understand the situation, the gravity of the choice, the distance one has to go for either choice available to them. That is why it is of utmost importance to empathize with the victims, otherwise how would one go understanding the whole situation? You are not Theon, to form an objective assessment of the situation, you cannot only look at Theon, you have to look at what is at Theon's disposal as well. What he sees, what he hears, his values. The reason some people said they emphasize less with Theon was not how they emphasize by how much emphasizing they find necessary. Theon is and always will be the person who killed two little kids for a ((n) idiotic) political agenda. He was prepared and self-justified to do so. That is a distance most people think is just TOO FAR, no matter the erason. I'm not saying he had no choice, I'm saying that Theon felt he had no choice, partially because losing respect especially as a highborn in this world is a lot bigger than it is here and partially because he catastrophises. Also, I'd think that killing innocent children speaks for itself, I don't need to empathise with the children to realise that. "you have to look at what is at Theon's disposal as well. What he sees, what he hears, his values." That is all part of empathising with Theon, standing in his shoes. Also I don't think he did it for an idiotic political agenda, wasn't even a politcal agenda to begin with. It was because he was afraid of losing any chance to ever be accepted. Can you imagine being all alone in the world? with everyone either ignoring you or laughing at you? That was what Theon imagined. 12 minutes ago, shizett said: I have so many problems with this analogy. Firstly, Theon is not put in his position. He brings about the position, he makes a series of decisions that lead to the moment with the kids. Secondly, oh, I would judge. If the said parent does not go above and beyond trying to save both kids, if they do not use every second afforded to them delaying the decision hoping for a change in circumstance, if they do not put every freaking thing dear to them one the line to save both kids, I judge. I do not care in the least bit about how they feel afterwards if they took "making that decision" lightly. You make too light of human life, kid's life at that. These are called hard choices for a reason. High stakes does not just mean the result, it also means the process that must go into that kind of decision making. If for any reason Theon chooses to ignore the pain that the kids and their parents must have gone through because of his issues, that is on him. People do not choose to be put in difficult positions, they either bring them about through actions of their own (like Theon) or are put in there by chance. None the less, how the behave, in addition to the mental process that goes into their decisions, matters the same and is a good indicator of who they are. I don't think you understood the point of my... not analogy. The point is that the act of killing children in itself can have several different reasons. What I discribed is deliberatly very different from Theon's reasons. Therefor I tried to show that the act in itself says very little it's the motivation and so on that's important. Also you might judge, I wouldn't judge so harshly, except if of course they didn't care at all about the other child but the implication is that they don't want to do it but there's no other choice whatsoever. And of course they're called har choices, what makes you think I don't think they're hard choices? 15 minutes ago, shizett said: I, unlike you, am not a fan of Cersei. But I find this quite biased and apologist towards Theon. If either of Jaime or Cersei wanted to make sure Bran died, they would have sent someone to do the deed, they wouldn't have left it to chance. None of them truly wanted him dead though. They have their issues for sure but there is no need to make them more evil than they already are. Cersei killed like what? 15 of Robert's bastard children without blinking? She never even feels an ounce of guilt for it. Do you really think she cares about the lives of children? She was afraid Bran would wake up and remember and tell someone that's why she was annoyed at Jaime. That said, I don't think Jaime is evil at all, Cersei however is, she's either a narcissist with psychopathic tendencies or a psychopath with narcissistic tendencies. And yes I'm a huge fan of hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 On 06/10/2016 at 5:05 PM, INCBlackbird said: Really? because out of the 4 I remember who were put in front of a difficult choice when it comes to killing children 3 did it. Neither Theon nor Jaime are callous or cruel. Self-serving perhaps but we all are, we are selfish creatures, our basic need is to survive. And weak... I think it's gross to call mentally unstable people weak so I'm not even gonna comment. This is just wrong, there are many many more people who are put in that situation and chose differently (the dire situation is explained in parentheses): - Ned: Dany and her unborn child (had to resign his handship, endanger his family, endanger his relationship with a man he truly loved as a brother), probably baby Jon (everything). - Arya: Mycah (her hand, her future, and her direwolf), Weasel, Hot pie and Lommy (they were starving and the three were dead weight), Hot pie and Gendry in HH (freedom and life), even grown up men Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter (there was fire every where). - Jon: The old man (his mission and his life), Mance's Child (his honor and his relationship to Stannis who was providing him with many men), and (f)Arya (everything including his life) - Davos: Edric Storm (his life and all he had gained for his family) - Cortnay Penrose: Edric Storm (he fights a war to keep the little guy from being killed) - Cersei!!! and somewhat Jaime: Bran (everything) - Tyrion: Sansa (he refuses to even rape Sansa who was his wife and a chance at becoming a great Lord and he wanted his father's approval let alone Sansa herself and WF so badly), Penny when does not leave her behind to either die of pale mare or be killed by the slavers (everything). - Sam: Gilly and her Son (his life) - Dany: Hazzea (locks her dragons away, the things that make her the mother of dragons), the little Meereenese cupbearers (her rule in Meereen). I am pretty sure I can come up with more examples if I think about it some more. I specifically put people like Cersei and Dany on this list too, those who have killed kids at some point. I am emphasizing on the fact that just people some do it for some reasons does mean they would do it for just any reason. As for Tywin, his crime of killing the two little Targlings comes up again and again and NEVER in a good light. No, killing children is NOT normal and is not an everyday occurrence, even in a world like ASOIAF. Children die in war all the time, but those who target children specifically and under no true pressure, are stigmatized repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: I'm not saying he had no choice, I'm saying that Theon felt he had no choice, partially because losing respect especially as a highborn in this world is a lot bigger than it is here and partially because he catastrophises. Also, I'd think that killing innocent children speaks for itself, I don't need to empathise with the children to realise that. Well, "not killing children" as a moral rule is something that one is supposed to think twice about before crossing. People keep bringing up the victims, because to Theon apparently it wasn't that bad. He could have lived like a worm in his life, always being mocked, never to be taken seriously, but still be a person who haven't had two completely innocent kids killed. He had a choice, he was aware of that choice (people laughing at him), he chose to kill the kids regardless because he was selfish. 6 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Also I don't think he did it for an idiotic political agenda, wasn't even a politcal agenda to begin with. Of course it was a political agenda. It is not that he would have no life, he would have no life with easy(or possible) access to a leadership position. Let's be very clear, IB would not kill Theon. They would mock him and not take him seriously, and I am sure that would be very very difficult for him, but he would be alive. His life (as in a life and death situation) was NOT on the line. 9 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Can you imagine being all alone in the world? with everyone either ignoring you or laughing at you? That was what Theon imagined. I think I can and I still believe that I wouldn't kill two kids to avoid that. 19 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: I don't think you understood the point of my... not analogy. The point is that the act of killing children in itself can have several different reasons. What I discribed is deliberatly very different from Theon's reasons. Therefor I tried to show that the act in itself says very little it's the motivation and so on that's important. And I tried to explain that in all the circumstances even the abstract black and white one that you describe, I judge people involved. Unless they prove that they have done everything in their power and more to choose differently. I would appreciate it if you would show me (by quotes or interpretations) if Theon does that at all. 11 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: And of course they're called har choices, what makes you think I don't think they're hard choices? Because you keep bringing up how hard it is for Theon. That's the point, isn't it? We are judging all the characters by their hard choices, that is what a choice is all about, isn't it? But then when it is about Theon, you keep bringing up his situation. People answer by saying that while they understand the situation, the fact that Theon is willing to go that far(which is really rally far) makes him a bad person in their opinion. First you deny that it is far at all (as everyone would choose the same) and then you say they have a wrong opinion. There is a right one, and that is Theon being a good person. Completely disregarding that what you call good in Theon seems to be a drop in an ocean of vileness. You do not even say that he has good in him, but that he is good right there and then. 17 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Cersei killed like what? 15 of Robert's bastard children without blinking? She never even feels an ounce of guilt for it. Do you really think she cares about the lives of children? She was afraid Bran would wake up and remember and tell someone that's why she was annoyed at Jaime. She says she did not find that particular attempted killing necessary and since she never follows up by actually attempting to decidedly kill Bran, I believe her. Her other actions of killing children in the past and the future is separate from that particular one. This not me endorsing her actions or her character at all, just insisting on being factual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 3 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: a certain amount of different reading will always be there for sure, but what you suggest is just so far off (as in what the trees have eyes suggests that you apparently agree to). It's like the person in this very thread who said Arya is a psychopath, it's simply not supported by the text, and Theon being one isn't either. I'll give you some quotes to show it to you. {quotes} Now, does any of that sound like a psychopath to you? Seriously? My take on Theon is far off? The only thing I've said about Theon is to refer to the actual things the actual character actually does in the actual books - but somehow my interpretation is far off? And by the way, I have never argued that Theon is a psychopath, so you can spare me your quotes. Nice misrepresentation of my postings though. 3 hours ago, INCBlackbird said: btw, where did I say you don't know how to read? All through the entire thread. To me, and to others. Whenever someone expresses disagreement or an assessment of Theon which differs from your own, your response is to say things like they don't understand your point, or they haven't read the chapters carefully enough, or they're trying to make things black-and-white, or they're oversimplifying, or they're just looking for reasons to hate Theon. Disputing that has been the bulk of my argumentation with you. Honestly, if even you aren't going to pay attention what you write, why should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 17 minutes ago, shizett said: Well, "not killing children" as a moral rule is something that one is supposed to think twice about before crossing. People keep bringing up the victims, because to Theon apparently it wasn't that bad. He could have lived like a worm in his life, always being mocked, never to be taken seriously, but still be a person who haven't had two completely innocent kids killed. He had a choice, he was aware of that choice (people laughing at him), he chose to kill the kids regardless because he was selfish. where exactly did you get the impression that to Theon it wasn't that bad? the nightmares he had about it? All the guilt? 18 minutes ago, shizett said: Of course it was a political agenda. It is not that he would have no life, he would have no life with easy(or possible) access to a leadership position. How is wanting to belong a political agenda? 19 minutes ago, shizett said: Let's be very clear, IB would not kill Theon. They would mock him and not take him seriously, and I am sure that would be very very difficult for him, but he would be alive. His life (as in a life and death situation) was NOT on the line. Sure, but what is life worth if you're all alone? I'd rather be dead than have everyone hate me and laugh at me for the rest of my life... Do you really think that just being alive is everything? 21 minutes ago, shizett said: I think I can and I still believe that I wouldn't kill two kids to avoid that. Perhaps you wouldn't, Theon did. And I find that understandable. 22 minutes ago, shizett said: And I tried to explain that in all the circumstances even the abstract black and white one that you describe, I judge people involved. Unless they prove that they have done everything in their power and more to choose differently. I would appreciate it if you would show me (by quotes or interpretations) if Theon does that at all. Theon probably didn't try everything, because he didn't think he had any other choice at that point... He believed he'd tried everything. And perhaps that makes you judge him harshly because you think he should be more competent, less messed up, more of a grown up I don't know... but I don't. 25 minutes ago, shizett said: Because you keep bringing up how hard it is for Theon. That's the point, isn't it? We are judging all the characters by their hard choices, that is what a choice is all about, isn't it? But then when it is about Theon, you keep bringing up his situation. People answer by saying that while they understand the situation, the fact that Theon is willing to go that far(which is really rally far) makes him a bad person in their opinion. First you deny that it is far at all (as everyone would choose the same) and then you say they have a wrong opinion. There is a right one, and that is Theon being a good person. Completely disregarding that what you call good in Theon seems to be a drop in an ocean of vileness. You do not even say that he has good in him, but that he is good right there and then. exactly it was a hard choice, so I don't see how you can twist that into me saying it's a light choice. And the situation is what makes it a hard choice, if it weren't for Theon's desparation, if it weren't for Ramsay's manipulation and so on Theon would have never done that. And it's not that he didn't go far, it's that in that kind of world people have to go far, especially when they have a lot of power. And it's that other characters go much further but they are not judged as harshly, I don't understand that. Also, just because I believe that most people would make the same choice doesn't mean it's not "far". Most people simply don't end up in a situation where they feel like they have to go that far, thankfully. I also don't say that you all have to agree that Theon is a good person, that's my opinion, all I ask is consistency and not to say things about him that are simply wrong. Also, what I generally say is that he is a good person deep down, meaning that he has a lot of good in him that he's hiding because he thinks it maks him weak (because ironborn culture) he's trying to fit in by looking all macho and harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 31 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said: Seriously? My take on Theon is far off? The only thing I've said about Theon is to refer to the actual things the actual character actually does in the actual books - but somehow my interpretation is far off? And by the way, I have never argued that Theon is a psychopath, so you can spare me your quotes. Nice misrepresentation of my postings though. As I said in my previous post I was referring to what the trees have eyes said that you said you subscribed to. Which was that Theon considers everyone else an object to do with as he pleases and to discard if he wants to. That is a description of a psychopath if I ever saw one. so either you don't subscribe to what they said or you do and consider him a psychopath? which one is it? 35 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said: All through the entire thread. To me, and to others. Whenever someone expresses disagreement or an assessment of Theon which differs from your own, your response is to say things like they don't understand your point, or they haven't read the chapters carefully enough, or they're trying to make things black-and-white, or they're oversimplifying, or they're just looking for reasons to hate Theon. Disputing that has been the bulk of my argumentation with you. Honestly, if even you aren't going to pay attention what you write, why should I? How exactly is any of that equal to saying that you can't read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 1 hour ago, shizett said: This is just wrong, there are many many more people who are put in that situation and chose differently (the dire situation is explained in parentheses): - Ned: Dany and her unborn child (had to resign his handship, endanger his family, endanger his relationship with a man he truly loved as a brother), probably baby Jon (everything). - Arya: Mycah (her hand, her future, and her direwolf), Weasel, Hot pie and Lommy (they were starving and the three were dead weight), Hot pie and Gendry in HH (freedom and life), even grown up men Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter (there was fire every where). - Jon: The old man (his mission and his life), Mance's Child (his honor and his relationship to Stannis who was providing him with many men), and (f)Arya (everything including his life) - Davos: Edric Storm (his life and all he had gained for his family) - Cortnay Penrose: Edric Storm (he fights a war to keep the little guy from being killed) - Cersei!!! and somewhat Jaime: Bran (everything) - Tyrion: Sansa (he refuses to even rape Sansa who was his wife and a chance at becoming a great Lord and he wanted his father's approval let alone Sansa herself and WF so badly), Penny when does not leave her behind to either die of pale mare or be killed by the slavers (everything). - Sam: Gilly and her Son (his life) - Dany: Hazzea (locks her dragons away, the things that make her the mother of dragons), the little Meereenese cupbearers (her rule in Meereen). I am pretty sure I can come up with more examples if I think about it some more. I specifically put people like Cersei and Dany on this list too, those who have killed kids at some point. I am emphasizing on the fact that just people some do it for some reasons does mean they would do it for just any reason. As for Tywin, his crime of killing the two little Targlings comes up again and again and NEVER in a good light. No, killing children is NOT normal and is not an everyday occurrence, even in a world like ASOIAF. Children die in war all the time, but those who target children specifically and under no true pressure, are stigmatized repeatedly. Forgot to reply to this. - Ned did not risk losing everything he held dear. - Arya, I'll give you that one. She definitly risked herself a lot. - The old men wasn't a child, when it comes to Mance' child he didn't risk everything he holds dear for sure and he thought Jeyne was Arya who he loved. - Davos is one of the 4 I mentioned - I don't know who cortnay Penrose is... - Cersei and Jaime what...? How exactly did they risk everything they hold dear for Bran....? - The only thing Tyrion could lose by not raping Sansa was... not having sex with her, what a huge cost that is. And Penny is not a child... plus she wasn't a stranger either. - How? by not running away alone? - Dany didn't risk to lose anything... also she killed plenty of children, had some of them tortured even... Tywin killed highborn children. Does anyone care about the poor kids who died in war? as far as I know, nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 28 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: where exactly did you get the impression that to Theon it wasn't that bad? the nightmares he had about it? All the guilt? That is why I explained the "hard choices": They are not just about what happens afterwards, they are about how one goes about making that decision. Theon thought about his loss of status and then decided to let many people die, two of whom little completely innocent children. Compare that to Ned, and please do so without starting by saying Ned is a grown man and mature. Ned would go to ridiculous ends not to kill small children. It is a discipline that he does not compromise on. Theon obviously doesn't do so, he feels bad afterwards. The key word is afterwards. He makes the decision very very lightly. 32 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: How is wanting to belong a political agenda? He could have been a commoner, he could gone to Essos and be a sellsword. He could have tried his chance again and again and again in the future (as Jon did by the way). He isn't doing it just because he wants to belong, the whole WF farce is a political act. 34 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: And perhaps that makes you judge him harshly because you think he should be more competent, less messed up, more of a grown up I don't know... but I don't. That makes me judge him because of the gravity of the decision he is making and how lightly he is treating it. You just agreed with me in a previous post that the vileness of killing small children is not disputable. I also provided you with a list of people in the story that were put in very difficult positions(unlike Theon I might add) where they could kill children and chose not to(and went to great lengths to do so), to make it clear that killing children is not a normal act in that society. You did not reply to that post, I am not sure if you saw it. 38 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: exactly it was a hard choice, so I don't see how you can twist that into me saying it's a light choice Where did I twist your point? I said you are treating any decision about human life very lightly as you keep insisting that anyone could and would make the same decision. And that it would be even easier in the world of Westeros because of prominance of violence. I disagree (you can see my post on that). 40 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: And it's not that he didn't go far, it's that in that kind of world people have to go far, especially when they have a lot of power. And it's that other characters go much further but they are not judged as harshly, I don't understand that. They are judged harshly though, even in story. Tywin is judged by his sister, his brother, his sons, by Ned and probably many many more characters without POVs. In the forum people judge everyone harshly, they keep calling Arya a psychopath, Dany worse. They show hate(complete hate) towards Cat, Jaime, Cersei, Sansa, Hound, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robb, Jon, Barristan, Tyrion. Literally everyone. The thing everyone else does heroic things as well: Arya serves justice, Cat is a strong woman, Brienne keeps her integrity, Jaime saves Brienne and RL, ... I am pretty sure if you make a thread about how right Jaime was to kill Bran you will be in the very minority as well. 46 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Also, just because I believe that most people would make the same choice doesn't mean it's not "far". Most people simply don't end up in a situation where they feel like they have to go that far, thankfully Did you see the list? Sorry I keep bringing it up, but I think we have completely different understanding of what is a normal behavior in such situation. 47 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: I also don't say that you all have to agree that Theon is a good person, that's my opinion, all I ask is consistency and not to say things about him that are simply wrong But you say he is not cruel while he hurts people and continues to hurt people and sometimes feel bad about it. You say calling him cruel is wrong, it is not. I call people like Theon cruel. I call all of them cruel! 48 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Also, what I generally say is that he is a good person deep down, meaning that he has a lot of good in him that he's hiding because he thinks it maks him weak (because ironborn culture) he's trying to fit in by looking all macho and harsh. Where has he ever shown "a lot of good"? I do believe everyone has the potential to be good, that we can all grow to be better people. But "a lot of good" is a gross exaggeration based on all he did and just a couple of nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 24 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said: Forgot to reply to this. - Ned did not risk losing everything he held dear. - Arya, I'll give you that one. She definitly risked herself a lot. - The old men wasn't a child, when it comes to Mance' child he didn't risk everything he holds dear for sure and he thought Jeyne was Arya who he loved. - Davos is one of the 4 I mentioned - I don't know who cortnay Penrose is... - Cersei and Jaime what...? How exactly did they risk everything they hold dear for Bran....? - The only thing Tyrion could lose by not raping Sansa was... not having sex with her, what a huge cost that is. And Penny is not a child... plus she wasn't a stranger either. - How? by not running away alone? - Dany didn't risk to lose anything... also she killed plenty of children, had some of them tortured even... Tywin killed highborn children. Does anyone care about the poor kids who died in war? as far as I know, nope. Oh, I kept referring to it in my other post. - Ned most certainly did. He broke up everything with Robert (about Targlings), he lost a friend more dear that a brother (while having lost everyone else, remember?). About Dany, he openly defies the King, breaks off the betrothal between his daughter and the heir to the throne, gives on the handship (which he accepted because of his love of Robert and Jon Arryn's murder mystery). About Jon, he brings him home, staining his own honor, his wife's honor, has to deal with her resentment. - Exactly, the old man is NOT a child and Jon still goes too far not killing him. Killing a child is much worse. He does, he risks Stannis's anger, he is directly going against a King's will (which is there in person) and is providing the wall and the NW with many things. And yes, he loves Arya, but he cares about his mission on the wall and he still goes to defend her which he gets killed for. It is a matter of principle. - I explained who Cortnay Penrose is. He was the Castellan of Storms End which suffered through Stannis's siege to keep Edric Storm from harm. - Bran could have wake up and talk, They never made sure he died, did they?! - Nope. Tyrion went against his father, made a fool of himself in court, and lost any claim on WF as an unconsummated marriage can be annulled. You know other characters might want to belong too, Theon does not have a monopoly on wanting to belong. Penny is a child, she is 16-17 when Tyrion meets her. - Yes, and by killing the WW walker that was following them for the kid. - She did. Everyone knew they should not take her threats seriously. As for her killing other children, yes, she did. I was trying to show that while some characters do so before, it is still such a big taboo that they tend not to keep at it. Also, Hazzea. Stop dismissing other people's sacrifices. They all had good reasons to just be like Theon, they struggled but chose better at the end. ETA: I forgot about Tywin. War crimes and murders are different from war, just because they kill during war does not mean any form of killing is acceptable. As I said at the end of my post, children die in the wars everyday. But targeting children with a specific agenda is very much an unacceptable act. Jon is a warrior, he kills on a daily basis, but refused to kill the old man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 11 minutes ago, shizett said: That is why I explained the "hard choices": They are not just about what happens afterwards, they are about how one goes about making that decision. Theon thought about his loss of status and then decided to let many people die, two of whom little completely innocent children. Compare that to Ned, and please do so without starting by saying Ned is a grown man and mature. Ned would go to ridiculous ends not to kill small children. It is a discipline that he does not compromise on. Theon obviously doesn't do so, he feels bad afterwards. The key word is afterwards. He makes the decision very very lightly. And Theon is in a state of desparation and anxiety when he makes that decision, do you deny that? Theon wasn't thinking rationally at that point, that's what anxiety does to a person. So no he did not make the decision "lightly". And I said to someone else before that Ned is a hypocrite, he doesn't want children killed when he has to feel responsible for it but when littlefinger tells him that chosing stannis means war, he says that "there is no choice" are you really gonna tell me that Ned didn't know that in war children die? 15 minutes ago, shizett said: He could have been a commoner, he could gone to Essos and be a sellsword. He could have tried his chance again and again and again in the future (as Jon did by the way). He isn't doing it just because he wants to belong, the whole WF farce is a political act. how exactly did you come to the conclusion that the WF thing was a politcal act? 16 minutes ago, shizett said: That makes me judge him because of the gravity of the decision he is making and how lightly he is treating it. You just agreed with me in a previous post that the vileness of killing small children is not disputable. I also provided you with a list of people in the story that were put in very difficult positions(unlike Theon I might add) where they could kill children and chose not to(and went to great lengths to do so), to make it clear that killing children is not a normal act in that society. You did not reply to that post, I am not sure if you saw it. I've replied to it now, I forgot before. 18 minutes ago, shizett said: Where did I twist your point? I said you are treating any decision about human life very lightly as you keep insisting that anyone could and would make the same decision. And that it would be even easier in the world of Westeros because of prominance of violence. I disagree (you can see my post on that). well my argument is that it's a difficult choice to make, and Theon made the wrong one, as many people would, exactly because it is difficult so I don't see how you can read that as me making it out to be a light choice. Most people would in my opinion yes. exactly because it's a hard choice to make. we aren't wired to sacrifice ourselves for others, even when they are little children. And the point is that in Westeros few people have a lot of power, and those people who hold a lot of power, their decisions weigh highly for others and also for themselves. The more power you have the more responsibility and there's few people who are emotionally stable enough to hold such responsibility. Just look in history at how many emperors went crazy with power. 24 minutes ago, shizett said: They are judged harshly though, even in story. Tywin is judged by his sister, his brother, his sons, by Ned and probably many many more characters without POVs. In the forum people judge everyone harshly, they keep calling Arya a psychopath, Dany worse. They show hate(complete hate) towards Cat, Jaime, Cersei, Sansa, Hound, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robb, Jon, Barristan, Tyrion. Literally everyone. The thing everyone else does heroic things as well: Arya serves justice, Cat is a strong woman, Brienne keeps her integrity, Jaime saves Brienne and RL, ... Tywin killed highborn children though, highborn tend to care about other highborn, but in the middle ages poor people had little value to the highborn, beyond exploiting them. Oh yes, I think everyone character gets judgements they don't deserve. Though don't you think that calling Arya a psychopath is wrong? that the hate towards cat is wrong and so on. I think the same about Theon. And also, most of these other characters have quie a bit of fans as well, like I said before when I read threads about those characters in most cases it's 10 against 10 instead of 10 against one, would you disagree with that? with a few exceptions of course. Theon fans however have fled this forum. I know several who have simply left, and some who never joined because of all the hate they saw. Also... Theon is heroic as well, he saves Jeyne... 24 minutes ago, shizett said: I am pretty sure if you make a thread about how right Jaime was to kill Bran you will be in the very minority as well. I'm sure I would, then again, i'd never say that Jaime is right to kill Bran, neither do I say Theon is right to kill those boys. But I think both are understandable and for the record I think Jaime is also vastly misunderstood on this forum. 30 minutes ago, shizett said: But you say he is not cruel while he hurts people and continues to hurt people and sometimes feel bad about it. You say calling him cruel is wrong, it is not. I call people like Theon cruel. I call all of them cruel! cruelty implies enjoying hurting people. I hope you don't think Theon enjoyed hurting anyone? Also you say you call all of them cruel, does that include Arya? Dany? Robb? Ned? Robert? and anyone else who is responsible for the deaths of children/is ok with it under certain circemstances? Personally, I don't think any of them are cruel, the only cruel people are the psychopaths, Ramsay, Gregor... 33 minutes ago, shizett said: Where has he ever shown "a lot of good"? I do believe everyone has the potential to be good, that we can all grow to be better people. But "a lot of good" is a gross exaggeration based on all he did and just a couple of nightmares. It shows when he wished he'd died with Robb, it shows when he gives his men a choice whether or not to fight for him, it shows when he says he can't "stomach" killing Benfred tallheart, it shows when he feels guilty, it shows when he can't stop thinking about Jeyne and hears her tears in his mind and finds it unbearable, it shows when he manages to regain his identity so he can save Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 26 minutes ago, shizett said: Oh, I kept referring to it in my other post. - Ned most certainly did. He broke up everything with Robert (about Targlings), he lost a friend more dear that a brother (while having lost everyone else, remember?). About Dany, he openly defies the King, breaks off the betrothal between his daughter and the heir to the throne, gives on the handship (which he accepted because of his love of Robert and Jon Arryn's murder mystery). About Jon, he brings him home, staining his own honor, his wife's honor, has to deal with her resentment. Exactly. I would add that Ned also had agreed to take the black and go the Wall, which meant sacrificing his marriage, his children and his home. That is giving up all a person holds dear, which Ned was absolutely prepared to do. Theon never even comes close to that level of self-sacrifice for a greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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