Words are wind. Indeed they are in this story, but not in this instance. Why?

[Macgregor of the North]

 

I have noticed something on re reads I wanted to share. For a long time I have always associated the saying Words are Wind as a cool hint by GRRM about how Bran/The old gods can/will send words through the trees, leaves etc to people as a whisper on the wind which become understandable. But. 

While comparing Bran talking to Theon in the 'present time' as I'll show in the below quotes, and Bran talking to his father in... let's say a 'different time', there is actually a difference. I'll talk more after all the quotes.

A ghost in Winterfell:

"The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon." 
The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

Winds excerpt

Spoiler

 

The Winds Of Winter THEON:

"The heart tree knew my name. The old gods. Theon, I heard them whisper. There was no wind but the leaves were moving. Theon, they said. My name is Theon." It was good to say the name. The more he said it, the less like he was to forget. "You have to know your name," he'd told his sister. "You... you told me you were Esgred, but that was a lie. Your name is Asha."

 

ADWD BRAN III:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't."

Theon understands the words aimed at him directly but they are not carried by the wind as it is a windless night. Why is this pointed out to us clearly by GRRM, twice. But when Ned hears Brans whispers to him, they are indeed carried by the wind.

What to make of this? 
The only difference I see is Bran and Theon are communicating at the same present time while Bran is reaching Ned in 'another time'. 

Any thoughts on this? 

Other examples I have found is the woman who always says please. Arya hears her still after she is dead, and hears her as a whisper on the wind. 

"The one-armed woman died at evenfall. Gendry and Cutjack dug her grave on a hillside beneath a weeping willow. When the wind blew, Arya thought she could hear the long trailing branches whispering, "Please. Please. Please." The little hairs on the back of her neck rose, and she almost ran from the graveside."

Could the wind refer to words reaching through different time frames like the past to present etc or from the living world to the world of the dead, for want of a better description. 

But when two people are in the exact same timeframe like the present, the words don't seem to carry on the wind, the very leaves of the trees seemed to be alive and are saying the words in the case with Theon.

Again, any thoughts?.

 

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Could the wind refer to words reaching through different time frames like the past to present etc or from the living world to the world of the dead, for want of a better description.

But when two people are in the exact same timeframe like the present, the words don't seem to carry on the wind, the very leaves of the trees seemed to be alive and are saying the words in the case with Theon.

I did a close reading of the last Catelyn chapter in AGoT a few months back, and found that it was filled with whispering and miscommunication - the Battle of the Whispering Wood had just taken place - and with Catelyn trying to make herself heard but not quite being able to get through to Robb and his bannermen. In a nutshell, the battle itself was whispering, trying to tell them to quit while they were ahead. Catelyn tried to advocate for peace but the men shouted her down, insisted that they wanted a King in the North, and succeeded in directly challenging and provoking the other kings.

Your theory could still be true, but my guess is that there is an element of being willing to hear that determines whether the message is received. Maybe the wind blows away the words before they are heard for those unwilling to listen, contrasting with Theon's ability to receive the message because he is open to receiving the words. Ned is a sympathetic character but readers often overlook his flaws, I think. He is very "by the book" about administering the King's Justice, in contrast with Jeor Mormont, who uses common sense and prudence and sometimes lets the letter of the law slip a bit. So Ned doesn't quite hear Bran's voice, even though he appears to pray and spend time in the gods wood.

I can't help saying that this might go to the "swords" and "words" pun. Ned brings his sword into the gods wood and he tells Baelish he doesn't like word play. Catelyn is trying to get people to put up their swords, but Robb lays his sword on the table and Catelyn realizes that the sword is Robb's true wife. Theon (symbolically) lost his "sword" when he was castrated so he is better able to hear the words.

[Cridefea]

I understand them this way: GRRM ha used wind to carry Bran's voice because it happens in the past, as if the voice had to travel time and space. Theon hears voices that could be magical or a trick of mind.

[Macgregor of the North]

31 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I understand them this way: GRRM ha used wind to carry Bran's voice because it happens in the past, as if the voice had to travel time and space. Theon hears voices that could be magical or a trick of mind.

Theon hears voices that are projected through the tree by Bran in real time, using whatever greenseer Magic Bran and the trees posses so the magical element you say is what I agree with. 

On the whispering on the wind, yes it seems like it is associated sometimes with the voice traveling through space and time, also it certainly seems to have a connection with dead souls whispering from... Well, the trees I think. We know that spirits go into the earth and the trees etc, it has been mentioned of the old singers(CoTf) so I think that a lot of the instances of whispering trees we hear, sighing etc are dead souls talking, so to speak. 

[Macgregor of the North]

49 minutes ago, Seams said:

I did a close reading of the last Catelyn chapter in AGoT a few months back, and found that it was filled with whispering and miscommunication - the Battle of the Whispering Wood had just taken place - and with Catelyn trying to make herself heard but not quite being able to get through to Robb and his bannermen. In a nutshell, the battle itself was whispering, trying to tell them to quit while they were ahead. Catelyn tried to advocate for peace but the men shouted her down, insisted that they wanted a King in the North, and succeeded in directly challenging and provoking the other kings.

Your theory could still be true, but my guess is that there is an element of being willing to hear that determines whether the message is received. Maybe the wind blows away the words before they are heard for those unwilling to listen, contrasting with Theon's ability to receive the message because he is open to receiving the words. Ned is a sympathetic character but readers often overlook his flaws, I think. He is very "by the book" about administering the King's Justice, in contrast with Jeor Mormont, who uses common sense and prudence and sometimes lets the letter of the law slip a bit. So Ned doesn't quite hear Bran's voice, even though he appears to pray and spend time in the gods wood.

I can't help saying that this might go to the "swords" and "words" pun. Ned brings his sword into the gods wood and he tells Baelish he doesn't like word play. Catelyn is trying to get people to put up their swords, but Robb lays his sword on the table and Catelyn realizes that the sword is Robb's true wife. Theon (symbolically) lost his "sword" when he was castrated so he is better able to hear the words.

When I typed whisper and wind In to the search I did notice there was some Catelyn chapter moments and I thought, I'm sure there is something there that means something. 

I actually thought you may comment on this thread Seams, it's good to read your thoughts as always.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon." 
The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

+ Winds excerpt

Present time Bran speaking to Theon

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't."

Bran in the present speaking to past Ned 

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

"The one-armed woman died at evenfall. Gendry and Cutjack dug her grave on a hillside beneath a weeping willow. When the wind blew, Arya thought she could hear the long trailing branches whispering, "Please. Please. Please." The little hairs on the back of her neck rose, and she almost ran from the graveside."

I think this is something to do with the COTF ability to speak to the dead, or the possibility that there are ghosts of some people still around. The other time this happens (that a dead person speaks through the wind) is when Arya hears Ned's voice through the tree. And one can say Ned's ghost is free as he has not been buried in the Stark crypts as per tradition.

It's fitting that these examples occur in Arya's arc, the character most closely connected with death.

[Springwatch]

To me, "words are wind" makes me think the wind represents futility, or lack of success. So the wolf Grey Wind says something about Rob.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Present time Bran speaking to Theon

 

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Bran in the present speaking to past Ned 

Yup im on board with when they occur LSoN, i was just wondering if that was the signifance GRRM was trying to rub in our faces by emphasising it twice to us that during Theons situation there was no wind so the words were not actually a whisper on the wind like we usually hear, but the leaves were actually rustling at him, with no wind to rustle them.

5 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I think this is something to do with the COTF ability to speak to the dead, or the possibility that there are ghosts of some people still around. The other time this happens (that a dead person speaks through the wind) is when Arya hears Ned's voice through the tree. And one can say Ned's ghost is free as he has not been buried in the Stark crypts as per tradition.

It's fitting that these examples occur in Arya's arc, the character most closely connected with death.

I have been a pusher of the idea for a while that the power to hear the deads words will show itself for those who have the ears to hear, and it was the stories of the CotF being able to talk with the dead that turned me on to it. Arya has indeed shown the most promise so far. Very interesting to keep an eye on this will be! The ghosts of people are everywhere in asoiaf, what will they tell us in the upcoming books. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

To me, "words are wind" makes me think the wind represents futility, or lack of success. So the wolf Grey Wind says something about Rob.

I hear ya, but Robb had his successes, not everything was pointless really.

[Springwatch]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I hear ya, but Robb had his successes, not everything was pointless really.

That's true. So, more accurately, we could say that at the end of his arc, Robb had failed to achieve his objectives.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

...

Your theory could still be true, but my guess is that there is an element of being willing to hear that determines whether the message is received. Maybe the wind blows away the words before they are heard for those unwilling to listen, contrasting with Theon's ability to receive the message because he is open to receiving the words. Ned is a sympathetic character but readers often overlook his flaws, I think. He is very "by the book" about administering the King's Justice, in contrast with Jeor Mormont, who uses common sense and prudence and sometimes lets the letter of the law slip a bit. So Ned doesn't quite hear Bran's voice, even though he appears to pray and spend time in the gods wood.

...

I like this idea very much.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Maybe the wind blows away the words before they are heard for those unwilling to listen, contrasting with Theon's ability to receive the message because he is open to receiving the words.

I think we could also apply this to the idea discussed up thread on the spirits of the dead in the trees sending out words as whispers on the wind. Arya has shown a capability to hear this, as i believe others will too possibly.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

12 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yup im on board with when they occur LSoN, i was just wondering if that was the signifance GRRM was trying to rub in our faces by emphasising it twice to us that during Theons situation there was no wind so the words were not actually a whisper on the wind like we usually hear, but the leaves were actually rustling at him, with no wind to rustle them

Yep, GRRM was obviously trying to tell us, in all possible ways he could in that scene without actually giving us Bran's POV, that it was Bran in that tree speaking to Theon. That's a major part of the entire Theon ADWD arc - Bran showing mercy and forgiveness to Theon when he needed it the most, and Theon taking it as God having forgiven him, giving him the impetus to become a better man. 

Spoilers for TWOW:

Spoiler

I'm almost certain Bran will save Theon from execution at the heart tree, and the northmen (As well as Stannis) will take this to be the power of the Old Gods, showing their wrath against the Boltons.

In general, GRRM is exploring the idea of faith, and how it can be a powerful motivator for people in both the good and bad way.

 

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have been a pusher of the idea for a while that the power to hear the deads words will show itself for those who have the ears to hear, and it was the stories of the CotF being able to talk with the dead that turned me on to it. Arya has indeed shown the most promise so far. Very interesting to keep an eye on this will be! The ghosts of people are everywhere in asoiaf, what will they tell us in the upcoming books

That's a very nice way to put it. Arya indeed would be the best character to be able to speak to the ghosts of the dead.

[Seams]

If the topic is listening to the spirits of the dead, I think you have to expand the discussion from whispers in the leaves and/or wind to include the House of the Undying and to include the reading of books. So Arya would be one person with a unique ability to hear the voices from the past, but Tyrion, Sam Tarly, Rodrick (Harlaw) the Reader and someone like Septon Chayle would probably also be key players. I've always felt that the burning of the Winterfell Library was one of those Chekhov's Gun events that will turn out to be important later. Davos and Wex Pyke learning to read and write are probably also part of this motif. Already we saw an important plot development that arose because Davos heard a voice (the appeal for defense of the Wall) that was ignored by everyone else. I suspect Sam will learn how to decipher runes while he is at the Citadel, and this could help with an important discovery about the wheel of time or something about the distant past.

Edit: Also, Sweetrobin seems to hear Merillion singing after the singer has (supposedly) jumped from a sky cell to his death.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Spoilers for TWOW:

  Hide contents

I'm almost certain Bran will save Theon from execution at the heart tree, and the northmen (As well as Stannis) will take this to be the power of the Old Gods, showing their wrath against the Boltons.

Winds excerpt spoiler.

Spoiler

So do you think that BR has been skinchanging the Ravens who seem to be intent on Theon being executed at the tree? not Bran, or was it BR and Bran together as it seems with two Ravens talking at the same time, and Bran perhaps has a change of heart at the crucial moment?

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

13 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Winds excerpt spoiler.

  Hide contents

So do you think that BR has been skinchanging the Ravens who seem to be intent on Theon being executed at the tree? not Bran, or was it BR and Bran together as it seems with two Ravens talking at the same time, and Bran perhaps has a change of heart at the crucial moment?

 

Spoiler

It's either Bran, alone (showing that he has progressed enough in his training to be able to control two birds) or it's BR and Bran together.

The reason why I don't think BR will be much involved is because the mission of taking back WInterfell is primarily of importance to Bran, not BR. In a sense, Bran is the King in the North currently, and this is his duty. There has to be some payoff from all the scenes in ADWD which clearly tell us that Bran knows what is going in Winterfell. In terms of Theon and Stannis' arcs, this would fit too -  Stannis turning towards the Old Gods, a natural extension of his arc deviating from Red God/Dragonstone/Melisandre, and for Theon, the chance of redemption. 

The only way Theon will be spared by Stannis at the heart tree is through divine intervention -  there is no other way the northmen will accept it otherwise. That is obviously going to come through Bran - and he'll have to do it in a rather drastic, obvious way such that everyone present there accepts the decision of their Old Gods. (By this, I mean that simply whispering though wind or leaves won't work, something more miraculous) From then on, I expect Bran to be controlling the entire mission of taking back Winterfell.

 

[Springwatch]

43 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe the wind blows away the words before they are heard for those unwilling to listen, contrasting with Theon's ability to receive the message because he is open to receiving the words.

I think we could also apply this to the idea discussed up thread on the spirits of the dead in the trees sending out words as whispers on the wind. Arya has shown a capability to hear this, as i believe others will too possibly.

Arya was capable of hearing, but she was not ready, she didn't really believe in a message from a tree. So this is a whisper in the wind - the message was lost in the wind.

Several people have felt whispers from the weirwoods, but I never took notice whether there was wind or not - maybe there's more than Theon.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's either Bran, alone (showing that he has progressed enough in his training to be able to control two birds) or it's BR and Bran together.

The reason why I don't think BR will be much involved is because the mission of taking back WInterfell is primarily of importance to Bran, not BR. In a sense, Bran is the King in the North currently, and this is his duty. There has to be some payoff from all the scenes in ADWD which clearly tell us that Bran knows what is going in Winterfell. In terms of Theon and Stannis' arcs, this would fit too -  Stannis turning towards the Old Gods, a natural extension of his arc deviating from Red God/Dragonstone/Melisandre, and for Theon, the chance of redemption. 

The only way Theon will be spared by Stannis at the heart tree is through divine intervention -  there is no other way the northmen will accept it otherwise. That is obviously going to come through Bran - and he'll have to do it in a rather drastic, obvious way such that everyone present there accepts the decision of their Old Gods. (By this, I mean that simply whispering though wind or leaves won't work, something more miraculous) From then on, I expect Bran to be controlling the entire mission of taking back Winterfell.

 

Spoiler

So do you see it as Brans plan to get the execution ball rolling and when it is about to happen he steps in and performs some kind of feat that is a show of pure Old gods power, thus saving Theon and getting Stannis' full attention as well as boosting the Northmens hopes that their old gods are here to take a hand in matters.

In this scenario Bran doesn't really want Theon dead then, just using him as part of a plan?

I can see it happening, I have never believed fully that Theon will be sacrificed to the tree and there is more to come from him. 

I have thought that as the execution is about to happen, Theon pleads with Stannis to look at the tree as he has heard the old gods talk to him with Brans face before, but in a really dramatic way, I mean like pleading, screaming, and lo and behold, they look and listen and sure as shit they hear the whispers and see the face of Bran Stark. 

There must be an urgency to this all as the battle is coming soon is it not? The Freys and Manderlys are loose and people will be falling through the ice soon IIRC.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

Here are some instances with the wind.

Bran here, it seems the old gods actually sigh at his idea as they know Robb is doomed.

"If Robb has to go, watch over him," Bran entreated the old gods, as they watched him with the heart tree's red eyes, "and watch over his men, Hal and Quent and the rest, and Lord Umber and Lady Mormont and the other lords. And Theon too, I suppose. Watch them and keep them safe, if it please you, gods. Help them defeat the Lannisters and save Father and bring them home."
A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered. Summer bared his teeth. "You hear them, boy?" a voice asked."

Jon seems to be getting a warning not to leave through the wind here.

"The mare whickered softly as Jon Snow tightened the cinch. "Easy, sweet lady," he said in a soft voice, quieting her with a touch. Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind. He strapped his roll to the saddle, his scarred fingers stiff and clumsy. "Ghost," he called softly, "to me." And the wolf was there, eyes like embers. 

"Jon, please. You must not do this."

Arya again, hearing screams. Of the dead?

"She did try. Yet as she lay under her thin blanket, she could hear the wolves howling . . . and another sound, fainter, no more than a whisper on the wind, that might have been screams."

Davos here tormented by the dead?

"Perhaps it was only wind blowing against the rock, or the sound of the sea on the shore, but for an instant Davos Seaworth heard her answer. "You called the fire," she whispered, her voice as faint as the sound of waves in a seashell, sad and soft. "You burned us . . . burned us . . . burrrrned usssssss."

Asha at Deepwood.

"but there were no waves at Deepwood Motte … only the trees, the endless trees, soldier pines and sentinels, beech and ash and ancient oaks, chestnut trees and ironwoods and firs. The sound they made was softer than the sea, and she heard it only when the wind was blowing; then the sighing seemed to come from all around her, as if the trees were whispering to one another in some language that she could not understand. 

Tonight the whispering seemed louder than before. A rush of dead brown leaves, Asha told herself, bare branches creaking in the wind. She turned away from the window, away from the woods."

Dany here and a wee reference of the wind being words from the gods. We can apply it to the old gods.

"It was quiet on her sea. When the wind blew the grass would sigh as the stalks brushed against each other, whispering in a tongue that only gods could understand."

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Bran here, it seems the old gods actually sigh at his idea as they know Robb is doomed.

"If Robb has to go, watch over him," Bran entreated the old gods, as they watched him with the heart tree's red eyes, "and watch over his men, Hal and Quent and the rest, and Lord Umber and Lady Mormont and the other lords. And Theon too, I suppose. Watch them and keep them safe, if it please you, gods. Help them defeat the Lannisters and save Father and bring them home."
A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered. Summer bared his teeth. "You hear them, boy?" a voice asked."

I came across Osha’s remark a couple days ago when I was yapping in a different thread. The full context is in GoT c.53.

"They are my gods too," Osha said. "Beyond the Wall, they are the only gods. <snip> "No, stay," Bran commanded her. "Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods."

Osha studied him. "You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear."

Taken at face value Osha’s statement implies the old gods can be heard and understood.

To me the often repeated “words are wind” mean “talk is cheap.”

Would you be so kind as to elaborate which you think is happening?

1.      Is Bran talking through the heart tree

2.     or are the old gods talking through the heart tree

[Cridefea]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

 

Your theory could still be true, but my guess is that there is an element of being willing to hear that determines whether the message is received.

Exactly. Sorry, @Macgregor of the North this is what I meant. Theon could have read it as something magic or a trick of mind. He chose to read it as a magic message.

For the rest I agree with you, GRRM has pointed out differences by different descriptions of wind.