A strong king acts boldly

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

But Cersei was probably just thinking out loud, not that she actually intended Joffrey to take care of Bran on her behalf?  Because even Jaime acknowledges Cersei would not have been so sloppy as to hire that particular catspaw with that dagger.  So then was she likely thinking of her own scheme to get rid of Bran and Joffrey just happened to beat her to the punch?  By then, the Starks would have been on high alert making it impossible to act on the sly.   

I do think she spoke without thinking. I find her response to Jaime when he tries to explain what type of trouble Joffrey got Tyrion into rather telling from that perspective. She doesn't want to hear it, doesn't want to know. It's almost as if for the first time she realizes almost that by her thoughtless talk, she set something in motion that in her eyes ended up with motivating Tyrion to kill Joffrey. And as soon as she gets close to that realization of self-responsibility, she stops him of speaking and says it doesn't matter what Joffrey did.

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Now, as you've shown, we have plenty of reason to doubt what Cersei says out loud even to her family.  She does try to distance herself from responsibility.  So Cersei was going to rely on having a hard talk with the boy to keep him quiet about the incest, but she'd have all of Robert's bastards regardless of age she could find murdered to keep the evidence of her incest a secret?  It's not like any of the bastards actually saw anything or knew anything about the incest, it was just that they showed a pattern of all Robert's children having black hair.  Cersei clearly has no issue with killing children if they could expose her, but seven year old Bran they should have just given a talking to?  Jaime can take this to mean he shouldn't have pushed him out the window to begin with, but to Cersei it seems like her issue is that he didn't die.  And now that he'll live, he can talk about the attempted murder and the incest.

You raise a good point. There is however, overall quite a discrepance between Cersei post-Robert's death and before that. And there is even a bigger discrepance between post-Robert's death and post-Joffrey's death. She was not involved with getting Jon Arryn killed, and kept on having sex with Jaime, including in the bedroom at Darry with Robert sleeping right there. Look at the level of risks she takes and her non-handling of Jon Arryn. She must have known Jon and Stannis were snooping around. And yet she does nothing. Heck, look at how she tries to get Robert killed: basically provoking an accident by giving him strong wine. She was lucky that Robert was so very helpful in that. Cersei took enormous risks and relied mostly on luck and suggestiveness. And she was very lucky!

But then Ned Stark confronts her, openly declares Joffrey has no right to the throne, and Stannis sends letters across the realm. I think that's the first time she realizes she must play hard ball and act ruthlessly. So, she has all of Ned Stark's household killed. So, she has the evidence - Robert's bastards - killed. And she can, because the Gold Cloaks are in her pocket. LF, Pycelle and Varys are in her pocket. Renly ran. Selmy she's not sure of. Of course, by then she knows Bran hasn't said a thing. And later he's supposedly killed by Theon. 

After Joffrey's death she goes even further than the previous. Now she fully sets up plans of entrapment and a complete theater of lies to remove possible enemies before they can become enemies.

 

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

HAH! We said that too because we were hilariously disgusting children. 

We also said , " a fox smells his own hole." Hole as in den, but do with it what you will. 

Sorry to derail your thread with off topic quips, @sweetsunray It won't happen again.

No need for apology.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There is however, overall quite a discrepance between Cersei post-Robert's death and before that. And there is even a bigger discrepance between post-Robert's death and post-Joffrey's death.

This is important to remember. I sometimes forget that Cersei (and other characters for that matter) are not the same at the beginning of GoT as they are at the end of Dance. 

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But then Ned Stark confronts her, openly declares Joffrey has no right to the throne, and Stannis sends letters across the realm. I think that's the first time she realizes she must play hard ball and act ruthlessly.

She (most likely) ruthlessly killed Melara as a 10/11 year old. I'd say she was playing hardball here. Granted, it was different circumstances. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

She (most likely) ruthlessly killed Melara as a 10/11 year old. I'd say she was playing hardball here. Granted, it was different circumstances. 

Yes. I think it has to do with how powerful she feels, how secure she is that people will listen to her command. Cersei is not in actual power at the start of aGoT. Robert is the king and he has his friends, his men, etc, and he doesn't like her. She's bold enough to sleep with Jaime, but as you said, killing his Hand's comatose son with his mother in the room. At best she plans a murder opprortunistically - if Arya was caught by Jaime, Arya would be dead. Melara is an opportunity without any witnesses.

She doesn't know what Varys would do, what Littlefinger would do, etc... Once she has succesfully rid herself of Robert and finds everyone else to be on her side, against Ned's, she feels secure. Joffrey's death is a blow as is Tywin's, but she is further securing power by having thoseon the council to be weak head-nodders and flatterers... her creatures. Likewise she believes the HS is her creature too. 

When she kills Melara she believes she will be announced to become Rhaegar's bride, and she is the daughter of the ruler of the Westerlands. Nor has she experienced disappointment yet, other than losing her mother.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

We have to remember that killing Robert's bastards is not the same as killing Bran Stark, son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and Hand of the King

Oh, of course.  The bastards are easy pickings without any risk.  Bran is a much more complicated problem to deal with.  I'm just saying Cersei has no problem with the killing of children, with Bran it's more of a matter of how to pull off dealing with him without getting caught.  It just so happened that things worked out she didn't have to, but it's hard to take at face value that talking was the only option she thought of. Jaime certainly feels like the solution to the problem was killing Bran, which would have just looked like an accident if it worked.  It then becomes funny how she's treating Jaime like the reckless one when she would be leaving things open to chance.  It's not like they were going to stay in Winterfell forever to keep a threat looming over Bran that he would never, ever talk.  It's a big risk, but then @sweetsunray brings up a good point that before Robert's death she is a startlingly reckless risk-taker.  If she had allowed herself to just have one black-haired Baratheon baby, the suspicion of the pattern would have been eliminated and Jon Arryn and Stannis would have had no real proof.

Pre-Robert's death, was all that risk-taking part of the appeal of the forbidden affair and not simply just lack of foresight?  Threat of getting caught can drive people to do dangerous things for the thrill.  There was no real reason to have sex in the room with a passed out Robert unless it was to get a charge out of it.  She's not only risking herself, but Jaime and her children that she claims to love.  Was there a need to constantly tempt fate to assert her specialness as a Lannister and queen which would be consistant with a narcissistic personality?  Having babies by your twin has got to be up there on the list of narcissistic things one can do.  She might have also been relying on Tywin's power and reputation for brutal retribution on anyone that was thinking of slandering a Lannister.  But you are right sweet, after Ned lays it out for her, there's no room for relying on anything but brutality and pre-emptive strikes against a threat.  Then by the time we get to Dance, it's like the recklessness pendulum has completely swung the other way by overcompensating.               

 

[sweetsunray]

Back to Joffrey's role in it: it's odd how Sandor warns Tyrion that Joffrey is not like to forget it. You could link it to Joffrey's behavior towards Tyrion once Joffrey is king and Tyrion is not the Hand anymore, but since the other half of the chapter dwells on Bran surviving and possibly waking up and Cersei's remark on how cruel the Northern Gods are, etc... I think it has more to do with Joffrey trying to get Tyrion into trouble with the catspaw (independently from LF).

In that same chapter Tyrion tells Jaime and Cersei that he intends to visit the Wall, but not to take the black. Then Cersei leaves frustrated. Anyhow, Joffrey too at some point knows that Tyrion will remain in the North. Joffrey knows that at some point Tyrion would have to go south and would have to pass through WF again. Did he hope that Tyrion would end up being suspected?

Consider the choice of distraction: the library tower. On the one hand it's the best thing to cause a fire quickly and far away from the room where Bran is. But it's also the location where Tyrion used to lock himself up at Winterfell, and Joffrey hates reading. So, was the fire in the library tower just the catspaw's idea, or was it Joffrey's? And if so, did he hope that would implicate Tyrion somehow.

Anyhow, at the very least, Joffrey could expect his uncle to be questioned upon his return south from the Wall, and he might as well just rely on the fact that the Starks would suspect Tyrion because of his looks. There were always tales about the Imp and that he is a monster and people have a tendency to blame and suspect Tyrion of the worst.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I think it has more to do with Joffrey trying to get Tyrion into trouble with the catspaw (independently from LF).

You bring up many good points, but I'm wondering did he then set up purposely for the catspaw to fail?  Like he chose the worst person for the job who would get caught to link Tyrion to the act?  Is Joffrey that smart in planning?  We've already talked about how Joffrey is probably not that dumb in regards to certain things.  I'm just trying to square this with the kid who couldn't tell if he was being mocked or not by Sansa's "I'd like to see that" comment.    

I can't help but also think there's a certain degree of George forcing through some of the details to get the plot kicked off in the direction he needs it to go.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes. I think it has to do with how powerful she feels, how secure she is that people will listen to her command. Cersei is not in actual power at the start of aGoT. Robert is the king and he has his friends, his men, etc, and he doesn't like her. She's bold enough to sleep with Jaime, but as you said, killing his Hand's comatose son with his mother in the room. At best she plans a murder opprortunistically - if Arya was caught by Jaime, Arya would be dead. Melara is an opportunity without any witnesses.

She doesn't know what Varys would do, what Littlefinger would do, etc... Once she has succesfully rid herself of Robert and finds everyone else to be on her side, against Ned's, she feels secure. Joffrey's death is a blow as is Tywin's, but she is further securing power by having thoseon the council to be weak head-nodders and flatterers... her creatures. Likewise she believes the HS is her creature too. 

When she kills Melara she believes she will be announced to become Rhaegar's bride, and she is the daughter of the ruler of the Westerlands. Nor has she experienced disappointment yet, other than losing her mother.

Great points all. You are right. The Melara killing is not the same as her later deeds.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I'm just saying Cersei has no problem with the killing of children

Absolutely. Melara proves she is also willing to get her own hands dirty, although she was a kid herself at the time. And this must be considered when thinking about the why the catspaw was sent. How much influence, if any, did Cersei have in it? I can't believe we haven't seen @ravenous reader here yet. This stuff is right in his wheelhouse.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think it has more to do with Joffrey trying to get Tyrion into trouble with the catspaw (independently from LF).

I had never considered this. I am interested.

 

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyhow, Joffrey too at some point knows that Tyrion will remain in the North. Joffrey knows that at some point Tyrion would have to go south and would have to pass through WF again. Did he hope that Tyrion would end up being suspected?

Logistically this makes sense. Tyrion was certainly received rather harshly by Robb (I seem to recall a sword being unsheathed in Robb's lap when seeing Tyrion). 

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyhow, at the very least, Joffrey could expect his uncle to be questioned upon his return south from the Wall, and he might as well just rely on the fact that the Starks would suspect Tyrion because of his looks. There were always tales about the Imp and that he is a monster and people have a tendency to blame and suspect Tyrion of the worst.

I like this idea. The motivation of Joffrey to kill Bran has always bothered me. Joffrey trying to get Tyrion in trouble is a lot better (IMO) than Joffrey trying to impress his father because of what he allegedly heard Robert say about being a mercy. The choice of using a Valyrian Steel dagger would also make more sense if Joff were trying to frame Tyrion. Joff might expect people to expect the Queen's brother to carry such a fine weapon.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

You bring up many good points, but I'm wondering did he then set up purposely for the catspaw to fail?  Like he chose the worst person for the job who would get caught to link Tyrion to the act?  Is Joffrey that smart in planning?  We've already talked about how Joffrey is probably not that dumb in regards to certain things.  I'm just trying to square this with the kid who couldn't tell if he was being mocked or not by Sansa's "I'd like to see that" comment.    

I'm struggling with this as well. How much credit should we give Joff when it comes to planning this assassination attempt? He seems rather stupid. 

[LindsayLohan]

I wonder if this is an appropriate time to have a discussion regarding Joffrey's abilities with a sword?  Despite Cersei's insane coddling, Joffrey is convinced (mostly delusion) that he is a capable swordsman.  During the court's visit to Winterfell, Joffrey (who is the image of Jaime) is larger than Robb, and the two of them had a serious go in the training yard (with Robb supposedly getting the better, but not dominant).  Joffrey is more than eager to fight with real weapons instead of blunted training swords. 

Who, if not Robert, is training Joffrey?  Is it the Hound?  Ser Aron Santagar?

Later, Joffrey gives away the game regarding Bran's failed assassination with his comments about Valyrian steel, and seems eager to participate in the Battle of Blackwater.  It's Cersei's influence and fear of injury that keeps Joffrey on the sideline, and eventually recalled to the Red Keep.  Joffrey (full-on delusion) thinks he's going to kill Stannis in single combat, if given the opportunity.  He's out flinging bitches from catapults and getting his war on. 

At this point we know that Joffrey has been training in combat arts.  Later, we would see Cersei do everything she could to prevent Tommen from serious training, despite the normally timid child's lack of fear or inhibition in training.  Tommen WANTS to be a badass.  Joffrey thinks he's a badass. 

The tone changes when Joffrey becomes crossbow-obsessed (prior to the Battle of Blackwater), and light is made of his inability to hit hares in the training yard.  Is this a failure on GRRM's part, or was Joffrey training regularly prior to Robert's death, and stopped when his mother was solely responsible for his daily itinerary? 

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

You bring up many good points, but I'm wondering did he then set up purposely for the catspaw to fail?  Like he chose the worst person for the job who would get caught to link Tyrion to the act?  Is Joffrey that smart in planning?  We've already talked about how Joffrey is probably not that dumb in regards to certain things.  I'm just trying to square this with the kid who couldn't tell if he was being mocked or not by Sansa's "I'd like to see that" comment.  

No, I don't think he wanted the catspaw to fail. I don't think he even expected him to fail. Joffrey might be planning or trying to achieve more than originally thought, and have some cunning (we see him apply that cunning with Ned Stark as well), but it's far from perfect.

To me Joffrey is this mix of cunning and underestimating others. He looks down on the Starks, feeling superior to them. So, in his mind they must be pretty dumb. Furthermore, Catelyn is a weak wailing woman to him. And he did not consider wolves a threat, thinking of them as dogs. Hence, a catspaw will succeed in his mind, and Tyrion will be suspected because he's The Imp. It doesn't require much more in his mind to frame his uncle I think, or at least cause trouble for him. 

So, we have an effort of a plan and framing, but not perfect, let alone solid. Only when LF tells Catelyn it's Tyrion's dagger independently is Tyrion actually framed.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I can't help but also think there's a certain degree of George forcing through some of the details to get the plot kicked off in the direction he needs it to go.

Possible, but even in aGoT, in the earliest chapters, the connections and hints and references are cohesively written. Tyrion I has all the ingredients: he's been in the library all night and comes down into the yard, humiliates Joffrey who stalks off angry, and then upsets Cersei (and Jaime) by telling them that Bran will live, with Cersei leaving the breakfast table in disgust over his talk of whores. 

4 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I wonder if this is an appropriate time to have a discussion regarding Joffrey's abilities with a sword?  Despite Cersei's insane coddling, Joffrey is convinced (mostly delusion) that he is a capable swordsman.  During the court's visit to Winterfell, Joffrey (who is the image of Jaime) is larger than Robb, and the two of them had a serious go in the training yard (with Robb supposedly getting the better, but not dominant).  Joffrey is more than eager to fight with real weapons instead of blunted training swords. 

Who, if not Robert, is training Joffrey?  Is it the Hound?  Ser Aron Santagar?

When Cersei does not want to hear about Loras training Tommen, she at some point wishes Sandor was there, because Tommen was always scared of him. Joffrey was trained by Sandor imo.

However, was he any good at it? I absolutely do not think so. Cersei would have made very clear that no harm could come to Joffrey if anyone fought him in the yard. I'm pretty certain that when certain men and squires were set against Joffrey in the yard, they let him win.

Up to some level, Cersei imo held Joffrey back in being trained as she does with Tommen for as long as possible. But at least he had a sworn sword in Sandor who trained with him up to a level. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

To me Joffrey is this mix of cunning and underestimating others. He looks down on the Starks, feeling superior to them. So, in his mind they must be pretty dumb. Furthermore, Catelyn is a weak wailing woman to him. And he did not consider wolves a threat, thinking of them as dogs. Hence, a catspaw will succeed in his mind, and Tyrion will be suspected because he's The Imp. It doesn't require much more in his mind to frame his uncle I think, or at least cause trouble for him

Ok, this makes sense.  Like mother, like son I think.  Tyrion (I think) describes Cersei as having a sort of "low cunning."  There's a tunnel vision to Cersei's decision-making and underestimation of people she is dealing with, like the HS.  She can make moves on a problem right in front of her, but it seems like she can only foresee one to two moves ahead at best.  

9 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I wonder if this is an appropriate time to have a discussion regarding Joffrey's abilities with a sword?  Despite Cersei's insane coddling, Joffrey is convinced (mostly delusion) that he is a capable swordsman.  During the court's visit to Winterfell, Joffrey (who is the image of Jaime) is larger than Robb, and the two of them had a serious go in the training yard (with Robb supposedly getting the better, but not dominant).  Joffrey is more than eager to fight with real weapons instead of blunted training swords.

I read that not as delusional, but using overcompensating bragging and his position as crown prince to actually get himself out of having to prove his skill in front of others.  Look at how eager he is to bully Mycah and Arya, because he knows Mycah is a peasant and would never actually fight back and he thinks Arya won't fight him because she's a girl and only has a stick.  But Nymeria bites him, he just lies on the ground whimpering and scared.  Now there's nothing abnormal about being afraid or crying after being bitten by a direwolf, but Joffrey reacts enraged at Sansa because she witnessed his fear, weakness, and how he was taken down by a girl and her pet.  At the beginning of this "date" he was bragging how he was nearly grown and needed no other protection than his very fancy sword.

Quote

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.
His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

Joffrey does not like his weakness and failure on display.  Now look at what happens when it's suggested Robb and Joffrey go another round and look at how Joffrey uses his bragging and arrogance to actually try to get out of fighting Robb until he can't...  

Quote

Theon Greyjoy gave a sudden bark of laughter. "You are children," he said derisively.

"Robb may be a child," Joffrey said. "I am a prince. And I grow tired of swatting at Starks with a play sword."
"You got more swats than you gave, Joff," Robb said. "Are you afraid?"                                                        

Prince Joffrey looked at him. "Oh, terrified," he said. "You're so much older." Some of the Lannister men laughed.                                                                                                                                                    

Jon looked down on the scene with a frown. "Joffrey is truly a little shit," he told Arya.                                  

Ser Rodrik tugged thoughtfully at his white whiskers. "What are you suggesting?" he asked the prince.      

"Live steel."                                                                                                                                                  

"Done," Robb shot back.  "You'll be sorry!"                                                                                                    

The master-at-arms put a hand on Robb's shoulder to quiet him. "Live steel is too dangerous. I will permit you tourney swords, with blunted edges."                                                                             

Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince. "This is your prince. Who are you to tell him he may not have an edge on his sword, ser?"                                                                                                              

"Master-at-arms of Winterfell, Clegane, and you would do well not to forget it."
 

"Are you training women here?" the burned man wanted to know. He was muscled like a bull.
 

"I am training knights," Ser Rodrik said pointedly. "They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age."                                                                                                                                          

The burned man looked at Robb. "How old are you, boy?"                                                                            

"Fourteen," Robb said.                                                                                                                                  

"I killed a man at twelve. You can be sure it was not with a blunt sword."                                            

Arya could see Robb bristle. His pride was wounded. He turned on Ser Rodrik. "Let me do it. I can beat him."

When challenged, Joffrey first claims boredom with this childsplay.  Confronted with Robb's eagerness, he responds with sarcasm and mocking, trying to make it look like Robb is only so confident because he's fourteen.  Still, he isn't moving to fight Robb.  He responds to Rodrick by suggesting live steel -- something he would know Rodrick would never allow.  As Jon notes, only nobility can practice with a crown prince and do damage to his person, even then he's the heir and no serious risk can be allowed to come near him.  Rodick almost gave him the out he was looking for, but then allowed blunted tourney swords.  Suddenly, very brash and arrogant Joffrey shuts up now that his bluff is called.  This is where the Hound steps in and actually digs Joffrey in deeper with very sly and cleverly disguised intentions.  When your prince wants live steel, you give him live steel!  Go on, give it to him!  Are you training women?  Then he turns to goad Robb so that he too will insist on the live steel to Rodrick and Joffrey stays silent through this.  Now we get an impression that the Hound was very aware of Joffrey's actual skill level and probably really sick of his empty boasts from the beginning (he does hate liars).  If you had battle and killing experience since age 12, you probably wouldn't think highly of the bragging of a spoiled 13 year old.  Perfect opportunity to get the "little shit" hurt and teach him a lesson by using his own words against him.  This isn't that apparent on first reading of GoT, but in hindsight it looks as though the Hound always had a low opinion of Joffrey.  And who does the Hound want to fight for later?  Robb, who had the courage to step up to the challenge.  This is further emphasized by the Hound's comment about Joffrey claiming he would win his nameday tourney:

Quote

The king frowned. "My lady mother said it was not fitting, since the tourney is in my honor. Otherwise I would have been champion. Isn't that so, dog?"  ("Mother said" gives him the out)
The Hound's mouth twitched. "Against this lot? Why not?"  (Now there's a ringing endorsement!  Even you could win against these gnats).

Compared to his comments in support of Tommen and Myrcella and we get a clear picture of who and what he really respects:

Quote

"We're children," Myrcella declared haughtily. "We're supposed to be childish."
The Hound laughed. "She has you there."

Quote

"He got knocked off his horse and fell in the dirt," the king pointed out. "That's not riding well."
"Look," the Hound interrupted. "The boy has courage. He's going to try again."

 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

When Cersei does not want to hear about Loras training Tommen, she at some point wishes Sandor was there, because Tommen was always scared of him. Joffrey was trained by Sandor imo.

Again, this is probably a moment we shouldn't take what Cersei says at face value.  She says "Tommen had always been frightened of Sandor Clegane's harsh voice and burned face, and Clegane's scorn would have been the perfect antidote to Loras Tyrell's simpering chivalry." 

It doesn't appear at the nameday tourney Tommen or Myrcella were ever scared of Sandor.  Why would they?  They've known him all their lives and he's never hurt them and looks like he was maybe a little fond of them by his words of support at the tourney.  Doesn't seem like he would ever be scornful at Tommen who he thought had courage.  If she ever noticed scorn, it was much more likely it was toward Joffrey. He probably did train Joffrey as much as he would be allowed to or at least he was very aware of what Joffrey's "training" was actually like.  Probably entailed Lannister sychophants letting Joffrey win everything. The only thing that Cersei was probably truthful about was Joffrey seeing a father figure in the Hound, because that is confirmed by Joffrey's fan-boy behavior toward him in GoT and Clash.

Just to bring it back around to like mother, like son when it comes to skill and bravery.  Cersei is constantly saying she would be the bold and brave one with a sword if she had been born a man.  She can mock others to no end, including Jaime, if they aren't as bold and brave as she percieves herself to be.  At the BW, she calls the other women "hens" and it's her unfortunate lot to have to be holed up with them because she is a woman.  But what does she actually do?  Drinks wine all night to alleviate her anxiety, desperately wants to bring Joffrey into the Keep even though it's vital for morale for him to be seen with his men, and then eventually runs from the room after hitting Lancel in his wound.  Like Joffrey, deep down she is a coward.       

 

        

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Again, this is probably a moment we shouldn't take what Cersei says at face value.  She says "Tommen had always been frightened of Sandor Clegane's harsh voice and burned face, and Clegane's scorn would have been the perfect antidote to Loras Tyrell's simpering chivalry." 

It doesn't appear at the nameday tourney Tommen or Myrcella were ever scared of Sandor.  Why would they?  They've known him all their lives and he's never hurt them and looks like he was maybe a little fond of them by his words of support at the tourney.  Doesn't seem like he would ever be scornful at Tommen who he thought had courage.  If she ever noticed scorn, it was much more likely it was toward Joffrey. He probably did train Joffrey as much as he would be allowed to or at least he was very aware of what Joffrey's "training" was actually like.  Probably entailed Lannister sychophants letting Joffrey win everything. The only thing that Cersei was probably truthful about was Joffrey seeing a father figure in the Hound, because that is confirmed by Joffrey's fan-boy behavior toward him in GoT and Clash.

I agree with the fact that Cersei's assessment of Tommen's fear for Sandor is not backed up by the available evidence. But Cersei may very well believe that Tommen fears him.

I also agree with your assessment of Joffrey trying to get out of the training fight against Robb. And that he is pretty much a coward of low skill. In addition to that, Tyrion at some point thinks how easily he got Joffrey distracted by giving him a crossbow (when Alliser tries to get to see Joffrey), and Jaime thinks crossbow (and bows) are a coward's weapon.

[ravenous reader]

14 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I can't help but also think there's a certain degree of George forcing through some of the details to get the plot kicked off in the direction he needs it to go.

  Ain't that the dirty truth no one wanted to hear me speak, the last time I dared.  

And here we are jumping through hoops constructing elaborate psychodynamic analyses, trying to make it easier for him!

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

  Ain't that the dirty truth no one wanted to hear me speak, the last time I dared.  

And here we are jumping through hoops constructing elaborate psychodynamic analyses, trying to make it easier for him!

George always does that. He gives part of the answer (Joffrey hired the catspaw and gave him the VS dagger) and leaves the rest for us to form our own opinion on, and leaves it open to speculation. Just take MMD for example. I don't think for example she poisoned Drogo or maliciously planned to have Dany's unborn child killed. But once Dany needed someone to blame and wanted to blame MMD, but not Jorah, MMD is imo solely guilty of unempathic speech, where she voluntarily takes the blame to spite Dany and get it over and done with. In an SSM George made clear it was up to the reader to decide whether MMD actively plotted against Drogo and Dany, or that a woman who was solely guilty of hurtful speech ended up being burned alive.

So, we're doing exactly what he wants us to do - discuss the circumstances that led to Joffrey planning the assassination of Bran.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, we're doing exactly what he wants us to do - discuss the circumstances that led to Joffrey planning the assassination of Bran.

Or maybe -- let's get 'meta-' -- maybe you're doing exactly what I wanted you to do..!!  

I deliberately told you not to go there -- emphatically put a lid on it by saying 'that's not my purpose here' -- 'don't open that can of worms' -- and what did you all do...

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Or maybe -- let's get 'meta-' -- maybe you're doing exactly what I wanted you to do..!!  

I deliberately told you not to go there -- emphatically put a lid on it by saying 'that's not my purpose here' -- 'don't open that can of worms' -- and what did you all do...

Haha! There he/she is. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Or maybe -- let's get 'meta-' -- maybe you're doing exactly what I wanted you to do..!!  

I deliberately told you not to go there -- emphatically put a lid on it by saying 'that's not my purpose here' -- 'don't open that can of worms' -- and what did you all do...

Well, you said not to go into Cersei's influence. It does however follow naturally once you agree on the OP That said, we are not questioning Joffrey being the main culprit. And @Blue-Eyed Wolf 's remark was about what might have been Joffrey's intention beyond getting Bran killed. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Tyrion at some point thinks how easily he got Joffrey distracted by giving him a crossbow (when Alliser tries to get to see Joffrey), and Jaime thinks crossbow (and bows) are a coward's weapon.

Ah, yes.  Good catch on that... and he's not even good at a crossbow either.   

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But Cersei may very well believe that Tommen fears him

That's very true.  She could believe that because Joffrey wasn't afraid of him and Tommen is not like Joffrey; therefore, Tommen must be afraid of him.  Joffrey also percieved Sansa was afraid of the Hound, when it was really Ilyn Payne that terrified her.  We see later that Joffrey is truly the one that enjoys terrorizing Sansa and probably Tommen too, but we don't have specifics.  One thing is for sure, Tommen fears his mother's scorn and Cersei may be transferring that to someone away from herself and away from Joffrey.  Does Cersei then subconsciously want to intimidate and bully Tommen as Joffrey did?  It would create a scapegoat of someone who is obviously afraid, which transfers their cowardice to their target and away from themselves.            

Quote

Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away. "Pray," she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob. "Stop that!" Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.
"Ser Osmund, relieve me," Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. "I'm sorry," Tommen wept. "I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick."
This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes. "Best we go outside, Your Grace." Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King's Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. "I wasn't scared," the boy insisted. "The smell made me sick. Didn't it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?"

...

Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ."

"Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so."

"I never meant to. I wasn't frightened, Mother. It was only that your lord father smelled so bad . . ."

"Do you think he smelled any sweeter to me? I have a nose too." She caught his ear and pulled him to his feet. "Lord Tyrell has a nose. Did you see him retching in the holy sept? Did you see Lady Margaery bawling like a baby?"

There's another one of those "a king must..." statements from Cersei.  Tommen is desperately insisting over and over he isn't scared and he was only sick from the smell.  I don't doubt the vomit was a reflex reaction to the smell, but he does recoil initially from the sight (I don't blame him).  But he was also probably wound up by Cersei's intimidating behavior.  Grabbing his arm and snapping at him.  He only runs when it's clear his mother is disgusted and angry with him.  Still he insists he wasn't afraid, he clearly is, but to admit out loud he was afraid he knows will make his mother will escalate her wrath.  Even when he's about to make a comment about "Joffy's" abuse, she cuts him off and goes on the attack again.  It denies Joffrey responsibility for his behavior, makes it look like Tommen is weak and irrational in his fears, and makes her look brave and stoic by comparison.     

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's another one of those "a king must..." statements from Cersei.  Tommen is desperately insisting over and over he isn't scared and he was only sick from the smell.  I don't doubt the vomit was a reflex reaction to the smell, but he does recoil initially from the sight (I don't blame him).  But he was also probably wound up by Cersei's intimidating behavior.  Grabbing his arm and snapping at him.  He only runs when it's clear his mother is disgusted and angry with him.  Still he insists he wasn't afraid, he clearly is, but to admit out loud he was afraid he knows will make his mother will escalate her wrath.  Even when he's about to make a comment about "Joffy's" abuse, she cuts him off and goes on the attack again.  It denies Joffrey responsibility for his behavior, makes it look like Tommen is weak and irrational in his fears, and makes her look brave and stoic by comparison. 

Grrrrr.... Cersei!!!!!!!! On the one hand she looks down on Tommen, thinking him weak, but as soon as he stands up for himself she bullies him, and gods forbid that he learns to ride or trains with a wooden sword.

George is so mean with this arc: Joffrey's horrid well to everybody, and everybody (except of course Cersei) at least realizes that it were better if Tommen had been first born or that if Joffrey's out of the way they would have a far better prospective king in him. Sansa wouldn't mind marrying him. Margaery sure doesn't mind. Bronn suggests getting rid of Joffrey and install Tommen instead. Varys does too. Tyrion admits it's true, but doesn't dare to go that far. I'm sure Tywin didn't mind much after all. Sandor thinks he's brave. So, finally everyone can have a breather and Tommen becomes king, but Cersei must ruin it all.  He'll go down into Westeros history books as the "King who loves to stamp".