cgrav Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: It is much more to it than the outside suggests Outside? We have Cat's POV. Her thoughts are overwhelmingly concerned with the well-being of her family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: You can interpret it both ways i think. Generally i find that people like Catelyn but but when you delve deep and read her chapters she really is not a good person. I highly recommend you watch the videos because they go into new theories about involving catelyn. Um, I'm an entire 3 minutes into the first video and already I feel like stopping. These people do not understand the POV structure that GRRM is using in the books. The information given before we get confirmation that Ned and Cat are in bed is NOT from Catelyn's thoughts. If they can't figure that much out, the rest of the video may give me a really good opportunity to exercise patience...and not throwing things at my computer (which I am rarely tempted to do). After some of the liberties/errors in the first Bloodraven video (not just the two minor things I already mentioned) I am not impressed with the deductive powers of this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: George specifically asked them who Jon's mother is. Not who his father is. And he said they got the answer right. No no he never says they got the right answer you linked me your proof but it never contained a you got it right repsonse from george. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said: No no he never says they got the right answer you linked me your proof but it never contained a you got it right repsonse from george. That's your interpretation of what they said. I disagree, especially since George specifically said they got the answers right. My interpretation, based on that, is that they got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 15 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: I will watch the videos. But neither GRRM nor Elio said anything remotely approaching what you said they said. That much is not an interpretation. ELIO: "One of the most missundersstood characters is catelyn stark and her relationship with jon and what it means about her behavior and what kind of person she is." What does this mean? It means that the reason why he thinks Catelyn is missunderstood because of her relationship with Jon and what it means about her behavior and what kind of person she is. What is Catelyn's relationship with jon? In AGOT, Robb looks at Jon's upset face and says," My mother.....?" Jon lies and says, "was very kind to me". To me, Robb's question says it all. If there was no prior cruel treatment of Jon, that question would not have been asked. Also when he was saying goodbye to bran. JON: "Once apon a time Part of him wanted to flee but he kew that if he did he might never see bran again he took a nevous step into the room please he said something cold moved in her eyes i told you to leave we dont want you here once that would have sent him running once it might have even made him cry now it only made him angry" Once that would would have sent him running, once it might have even made him cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 16 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: That's your interpretation of what they said. I disagree, especially since George specifically said they got the answers right. My interpretation, based on that, is that they got it right. No link me when George RR Martin specifically says they got the answer right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrav Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Jon's parentage Seems like a pretty key detail to miss if GRRM was concerned with the accuracy of their deductions. The thing is that if RLJ is true (which it is), then it's a huge deal and matters to a lot to the other characters and plot lines. If Jon is just a highborn bastard, who cares? There'd be no reason to hide him, and it reduces Ned's motive to pride, rather than trying to save Jon's life and prevent yet another succession crisis. There's also the question of who Lyanna did give birth to, if not Jon. And if Jon is really Ned's kid, what are the lies he's lived with for an amount of time equal to Jon's age? RLJ answers questions, ANJ doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said: ELIO: "One of the most missundersstood characters is catelyn stark and her relationship with jon and what it means about her behavior and what kind of person she is." What does this mean? It means that the reason why he thinks Catelyn is missunderstood because of her relationship with Jon and what it means about her behavior and what kind of person she is. What is Catelyn's relationship with jon? In AGOT, Robb looks at Jon's upset face and says," My mother.....?" Jon lies and says, "was very kind to me". To me, Robb's question says it all. If there was no prior cruel treatment of Jon, that question would not have been asked. Also when he was saying goodbye to bran. JON: "Once apon a time Part of him wanted to flee but he kew that if he did he might never see bran again he took a nevous step into the room please he said something cold moved in her eyes i told you to leave we dont want you here once that would have sent him running once it might have even made him cry now it only made him angry" Once that would would have sent him running, once it might have even made him cry. <snip You are stretching things seriously. Robb's question does not imply cruelty. It implies that things between them weren't rosy, that's all. July 14, 1999: Correspondence with fans... Quote Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him? "Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue. And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere. I think you've taken the videos from the Order of the Green Hand way too seriously. Every point they've made so far in the one I'm watching/listening to about Catelyn has been based on their inability to tell the difference between narrative and a character's thoughts. That's one of the more basic concepts. 4 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: No link me when George RR Martin specifically says they got the answer right It's in the quote I posted. He speaks first and says they got the answers right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmedricko Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 24 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: That's your interpretation of what they said. I disagree, especially since George specifically said they got the answers right. My interpretation, based on that, is that they got it right. 6 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: No link me when George RR Martin specifically says they got the answer right Quote On the parentage of Jon Snow: Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow's mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire. I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they'd read the text. Did they get it right? They answered correctly. -George R.R. Martin: Outtakes From the Rolling Stone Interview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Just now, Shmedricko said: Thanks, Shmedricko. I knew there was another quote somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, cgrav said: Jon's parentage Seems like a pretty key detail to miss if GRRM was concerned with the accuracy of their deductions. The thing is that if RLJ is true (which it is), then it's a huge deal and matters to a lot to the other characters and plot lines. If Jon is just a highborn bastard, who cares? There'd be no reason to hide him, and it reduces Ned's motive to pride, rather than trying to save Jon's life and prevent yet another succession crisis. There's also the question of who Lyanna did give birth to, if not Jon. And if Jon is really Ned's kid, what are the lies he's lived with for an amount of time equal to Jon's age? RLJ answers questions, ANJ doesn't. No you got it wrong. The fact that they made the well thought out guess that Jon was R+L=J proved to George that they were dedicated and he wanted that his babies were to be translated to tv by guys that were fans of his books. It is a good guess. The actual answer is incredibly complex and only a few people know about it. George RR Martins knows that R+L=J is a good answer though not correct. R+L=J is not proved it is not a fact i dont believe it to be true. Lyanna gave birth to Young Griff Aegon The things that trouble Eddard is the fact that Ashara couldnt be with her baby and some other things that went down. This is Catelyn: However, when she finally had gathered enough courage to ask her husband about the Dornishwoman, Eddard demanded to learn where the rumor had come from. Ashara's name was never mentioned in Winterfell again, and Catelyn remembers the night as "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her". You should watch The Order Of The Green Hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: No you got it wrong. The fact that they made the well thought out guess that Jon was R+L=J proved to George that they were dedicated and he wanted that his babies were to be translated to tv by guys that were fans of his books. It is a good guess. The actual answer is incredibly complex and only a few people know about it. George RR Martins knows that R+L=J is a good answer though not correct. R+L=J is not proved it is not a fact i dont believe it to be true. Lyanna gave birth to Young Griff Aegon The things that trouble Eddard is the fact that Ashara couldnt be with her baby and some other things that went down. This is Catelyn: However, when she finally had gathered enough courage to ask her husband about the Dornishwoman, Eddard demanded to learn where the rumor had come from. Ashara's name was never mentioned in Winterfell again, and Catelyn remembers the night as "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her". You should watch The Order Of The Green Hand Coolbeard the Exile, with all due respect (cause I do like you) there is no evidence of Young Griff having any connection to Lyanna. The Order of the Green Hand is creative, I'll give them that. But they get too many things wrong, and assume far too much that is not in evidence, in addition to not knowing the difference between narrative and character thoughts. If Ned was Jon's father (he's not, I had that figured out the first reading) and Ashara was his mother, he would NEVER have taken Jon away from her. Bastards aren't stigmatized in Dorne the way they are elsewhere. And if he couldn't be with Ashara at least he could allow her to raise their child. Yes Ned frightened Cat. He had to get her to drop the subject. He says "He is my blood." He doesn't say that Jon is his son. There is no reason on earth not to tell her the truth about Jon at some point if Jon really is his. If as TOotGH suggests, he was married to Ashara, he could always leave out that little detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: You are stretching things seriously. Robb's question does not imply cruelty. It implies that things between them weren't rosy, that's all. July 14, 1999: Correspondence with fans... I think you've taken the videos from the Order of the Green Hand way too seriously. Every point they've made so far in the one I'm watching/listening to about Catelyn has been based on their inability to tell the difference between narrative and a character's thoughts. That's one of the more basic concepts. It's in the quote I posted. He speaks first and says they got the answers right. No it is not in the quote the quote is George: DAN WEISS: He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 53 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Um, I'm an entire 3 minutes into the first video and already I feel like stopping. These people do not understand the POV structure that GRRM is using in the books. The information given before we get confirmation that Ned and Cat are in bed is NOT from Catelyn's thoughts. If they can't figure that much out, the rest of the video may give me a really good opportunity to exercise patience...and not throwing things at my computer (which I am rarely tempted to do). After some of the liberties/errors in the first Bloodraven video (not just the two minor things I already mentioned) I am not impressed with the deductive powers of this team. Don't get what your are saying the first there. What did they do wrong in the Bloodraven video? A misspronounciation and wrong art? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Don't get what your are saying the first there. What did they do wrong in the Bloodraven video? A misspronounciation and wrong art? They're treating Cat's chapters like GRRM is writing in first-person instead of third-person limited. Bloodraven was not ugly, he just wasn't as good-looking as most of the Targ men. Haegon was not treacherously slain. Sheira is spelled like that. These are easy things. If they can't get the easy things right, how can anyone trust their assessment of hard things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Bloodraven was not ugly, he just wasn't as good-looking as most of the Targ men. Haegon was not treacherously slain. Sheira is spelled like that. These are easy things. If they can't get the easy things right, how can anyone trust their assessment of hard things? Would you describe a tall, thin,gaunt unmuscular and grim albino man with red eyes and a bigass winestain birthmark that extended from his throat up to his right cheek as good looking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Bloodraven was not ugly, he just wasn't as good-looking as most of the Targ men. Haegon was not treacherously slain. Sheira is spelled like that. These are easy things. If they can't get the easy things right, how can anyone trust their assessment of hard things? You pointing out those things is ridicolous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Watch the wars to come series! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Would you describe a tall, thin,gaunt unmuscular and grim albino man with red eyes and a bigass winestain birthmark that extended from his throat up to his right cheek as good looking? Depends. How someone is described on paper and how the combination appears to the eyes do not always match. Based on the pictures, he's not remotely hideous. He just doesn't look as good as his brothers. Ugly is subjective. Sheira didn't mind his looks. 2 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: You pointing out those things is ridicolous Are you The Order of the Green Hand? Because I see no other reason you'd have a problem with reasonable criticism. They could avoid this stuff it they'd do double-checking and editing. 1 minute ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Watch the wars to come series! I'll give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Depends. How someone is described on paper and how the combination appears to the eyes do not always match. Based on the pictures, he's not remotely hideous. He just doesn't look as good as his brothers. Ugly is subjective. Sheira didn't mind his looks. Are you The Order of the Green Hand? Because I see no other reason you'd have a problem with reasonable criticism. They could avoid this stuff it they'd do double-checking and editing. I'll give it a shot. Most pictures are just fanart and not embraced by george. This for example is official http://m1.paperblog.com/i/302/3027561/brynden-rios-lord-cuervo-sangre-4-L-bFyUik.jpeg I am not the order of the green hand but i do support their theories and i think they are great. Give it a shot bro <3<3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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