Bran will warg Ghost

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I'm sure the same can be said for the abomination of an adaption that d$d are giving us, no?

I'm still not going to acknowledge anything from the show, to support a theory about the books.

I am going to agree twice so it looks like I agree more than kissedbyfire.

Ok, I'll see myself out...

[TyrionTLannister]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, fortunately or unfortunately, that outline really does not mean much at all. George has said this many, many times, most recently I know of was in Mexico back in December, but also very clearly at Balticon last May. Also, one big thing that people tend to forget is that the ending was blacked out from the get go. No one knows the ending so what we were left with are the ever changing details.

Well, actually, someone made an effort to uncover the redacted text and this is what they got: http://m.imgur.com/lFswGVp

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

According to that outline, Jaime should be king and Tyrion will fight Jon for the love of Arya, and so on. I actually prefer the books way better the way they are working out now.

Maybe these storylines will still come up in some shape or form in the following books. Like, instead of Jaime becoming King, Cersei will become Queen. Or, there is no romance between Jon and Arya, but they still end up marrying after the Long Night to help sew the kingdom back together.

[TyrionTLannister]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Tyrion T -- I see this is your grim vision 2.0... 

First, you were set on Jon killing Bran, by dragonfire no less, in the great denouement;

now, you're gravitating to Bran violating Jon in some way!

It's not hard to believe -- and that blogger Yezen -- 'Weirwood Leviathan' -- you referenced ('BranTree trademark', lol...) has an even darker vision than you!

The thing is GRRM has promised a 'bittersweet' story resolution-- and the scenarios to which you and Yezen are gravitating are so soul-destroying and nihilistic a vision of humanity I can find no 'sweet' therein, only 'bitter' --

GRRM can of course do anything he pleases with the characters -- but if he makes us hate enough of our favourite characters -- or worse, fools around with resurrection and bodysnatching to the extent that apathy sets in for the readers and we no longer care about the living --

then he will have lost the plot and not only will there be no sweetness, his saga will fall flat on its face.

There are many components to a bittersweet ending. For example, maybe Bran and Dany get a horrible and tragic end, but Jon and Tyrion live long and prosperous lives. Some are sweet and some are bitter, and together they make bittersweet.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Well, actually, someone made an effort to uncover the redacted text and this is what they got: http://m.imgur.com/lFswGVp

That is good, but it doesn't seem to detract or change what we know fromt he bulk of the outline posted. It really just fills in a few words.

1 minute ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Maybe these storylines will still come up in some shape or form in the following books. Like, instead of Jaime becoming King, Cersei will become Queen. Or, there is no romance between Jon and Arya, but they still end up marrying after the Long Night to help sew the kingdom back together.

Can't say that #1 we ever even know of a Jon and Arya romance ever actually happening because the ending is blacked out, and George has pretty much said that ain't gonna happen because some pretty big things changed after he pulled the 200 pages out of his drawer after two years of sitting there.

And, it kinda goes against lots of things to have any Starks marry (old gods for 1). It won't sew anything back together if you just put the same two people back in the same place with nothing new. As Ygritte teaches Jon (the reader actually), you "steal"(marry) from another village to strengthen the clan. Nymeria did the same thing down on Dorne for the same stated reason.

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

There are many components to a bittersweet ending. For example, maybe Bran and Dany get a horrible and tragic end, but Jon and Tyrion live long and prosperous lives. Some are sweet and some are bitter, and together they make bittersweet.

What's interesting is how set you (and others) are on the brothers viciously annihilating each other!

[TyrionTLannister]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Can't say that #1 we ever even know of a Jon and Arya romance ever actually happening because the ending is blacked out, and George has pretty much said that ain't gonna happen because some pretty big things changed after he pulled the 200 pages out of his drawer after two years of sitting there.

And, it kinda goes against lots of things to have any Starks marry (old gods for 1). It won't sew anything back together if you just put the same two people back in the same place with nothing new. As Ygritte teaches Jon (the reader actually), you "steal"(marry) from another village to strengthen the clan. Nymeria did the same thing down on Dorne for the same stated reason.

To be fair, marrying Arya would cement the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale for Jon. 

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What's interesting is how set you (and others) are on the brothers viciously annihilating each other!

There is a certain appeal to two Starks turning against each other and becoming bitter enemies.

[TyrionTLannister]

13 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Stealing your brother's soul when you can have any other wolf you want?  Yes, it doesn't sound very innocent, it sounds like someone is envy of what Jon has and wants to take Ghost and not like he actually needs a wolf.

Bran also skinchanges Hodor despite knowing that it harms him. He can be very selfish at times. I don't exactly think this is something he would never in a million years do.

13 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because when Dany will arive in Westeros Cersei will have been history and Aegon will be the King. I don't see why Jon has to leave the war to go and beg Dany. That doesn't sound like him at all.

You're forgetting that Dragonstone contains large reserves of obsidian. Jon may have no choice.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

To be fair, marrying Arya would cement the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale for Jon. 

There is a certain appeal to two Starks turning against each other and becoming bitter enemies.

Then what is to stop him from marrying Sansa? She could do the same. And since we don't have Sansa giving birth to Joffery's little lion baby as per that outline, she could marry Jon. And who is to say that Jon wants to rule anything? Or lives in the finale??? And the north now has 10,000+ free folk that will need a leader (not a ruler), but they won't go with anyone who offends the gods.

The face of Westeros is about to make a huge about face-change () and it is going to need a leader that does more than just marry his family to secure a seat because that is an abomination against the old gods and the new.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Bran also skinchanges Hodor despite knowing that it harms him. He can be very selfish at times. I don't exactly think this is something he would never in a million years do.

You're forgetting that Dragonstone contains large reserves of obsidian. Jon may have no choice.

I do agree that something between Bran and/or Bloodraven is going to go awry (Pinocchio anyone?)

There is obsidian in the north as well.

[TyrionTLannister]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Then what is to stop him from marrying Sansa? She could do the same. And since we don't have Sansa giving birth to Joffery's little lion baby as per that outline, she could marry Jon.

I don't think Sansa is long for this world. Her direwolf died, and the fates of the direwolves reflect that of their owners. She wasn't one of the 5 characters that were originally supposed to make it to the third book. And she would be of no use against the Others. I think her storyline ends with Littlefinger.

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And who is to say that Jon wants to rule anything? Or lives in the finale??? And the north now has 10,000+ free folk that will need a leader (not a ruler), but they won't go with anyone who offends the gods.

Assuming he does make it to the finale, I think he would become King for the good of the realm. And how is marrying your first cousin an offense to the gods? 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

I don't think Sansa is long for this world. Her direwolf died, and the fates of the direwolves reflect that of their owners. She wasn't one of the 5 characters that were originally supposed to make it to the third book. And she would be of no use against the Others. I think her storyline ends with Littlefinger.

Could be, but George said all the Stark children are wargs to some degree. Sansa's arc has changed drastically from that outline. Instead of her marrying Joffery and having his golden lion babies, we had her escaping them to go back north. Her personal spirit animal could have changed from a wolf to a bird, which is why she is in the Vale for this amount of time and also reflects the other bird symbolism that her siblings also have. Her spirit could just (now) be manifesting differently.

George had to be convinced by an editor friend of his, Phyllis according to ASOS, to add the dragons... and now we have a zillion dragon stories and they are central to the story. Big changes have been made.

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Assuming he does make it to the finale, I think he would become King for the good of the realm. And how is marrying your first cousin an offense to the gods? 

Because it is stated in the books by several characters that this is considered incest and an abomination against the old gods and the new. It is probably better to go with what is actually written as opposed to what was pulled together as what George describes as "full of shit" when trying to make a really good case that other posters won't just shoot down. For instance, George has since given us this useful information:

Ygritte explains to Jon that "stealing" from one clan to another strengthens the clans through relations. This is a set up for what Jon is doing in the North with Alys and Sigorn, and most probably he and [someone else]. You unite two lands by joining blood, as Nymeria did in Dorne, not by closing off other families and bloodlines. Alys was escaping an incestuous marriage and went on to marry from someone outside of her village.

• "Longspear's not your brother."
  "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

And we know Dorne has a lot in common with the North and that is why I mentioned Nymeria. We are currently seeing a replay of that historic situation play out in the North this time.

• The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."

• The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

  When Mors Martell took Nymeria to wife, hundreds of his knights, squires, and lords bannermen also wed Rhoynish women, and many of those who were already wed took them for their paramours. Thus were the two peoples united by blood. These unions enriched and strengthened House Martell and its Dornish allies. The Rhoynar brought considerable wealth with them; their artisans, metalworkers, and stonemasons brought skills far in advance of those achieved by their Westerosi counterparts, and their armorers were soon producing swords and spears and suits of scale and plate no Westerosi smith could hope to match. Even more crucially, it is said the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made dry streams flow again and deserts bloom.

  In the story it seems to be meant as a cautionary tale. We have several people from all over that tell of incest as an abomination. Everyone from commoners to highborn:

  • Cersei is on trial for it.
    • "No," she said, more sharply. "I would sooner die."
      Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."
  • "The Targaryens . . ."

             "We are not Targaryens!"

   

  • "Whore," someone screamed.

  "Brotherfucker," another voice added. "Abomination."

   

  • I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer.
  • "Wife and daughter both, Your Grace. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."
    "Her own father got this child on her?" Stannis sounded shocked. "We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing."
  • "Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

    "Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."
  • "Fucked her own father," Sam heard one man say, as the wind was rising once again. "Worse than whoring, that. Worse than anything. We'll all drown unless we get rid of her, and that abomination that she whelped."
  • "Your hour is come right now." Joffrey beckoned to Ser Ilyn Payne to take the man out and strike his head off. But no sooner had that one been dragged away than a knight of solemn mien with a fiery heart on his surcoat shouted out, "Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!"
    "Be silent," Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed.
  • to protect the little prince, to keep him away from Lady Melisandre's fires, away from her red god. If she burns Gilly's boy, who will care? No one but Gilly. He was only Craster's whelp, an abomination born of incest, not the son of the King-beyond-the-Wall. He's no good for a hostage, no good for a sacrifice, no good for anything, he doesn't even have a name.
  • Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.
  • Aenys further enraged the Faith in 41 AC, when he wed his daughter, Princess Rhaena, to his son and heir, Prince Aegon. Aenys received a denunciation from the Faith, addressed to "King Abomination".

  • The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

    The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

    This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

     

    And George confirms in an interview that the Targaryens thought themselves above the gods (and men)

     

  https://youtu.be/351pUIf0Fu8?t=1607

  •  

   

[TyrionTLannister]

32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because it is stated in the books by several characters that this is considered incest and an abomination against the old gods and the new. It is probably better to go with what is actually written as opposed to what was pulled together as what George describes as "full of shit" when trying to make a really good case that other posters won't just shoot down. For instance, George has since given us this useful information:

•  

Brother-and-sister incest is considered an abomination, but Jon and Arya aren't brothers and sisters. They're first cousins, and first-cousin marriage is very common in Westeros. Ned's parents, Rickard and Lyarra, were first cousins; so were Tywin and Joanna. 

Also, I think a coalition of the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands is enough to keep the ruling family in power for a long, long time. And what other suitable women could Jon marry?

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Brother-and-sister incest is considered an abomination, but Jon and Arya aren't brothers and sisters. They're first cousins, and first-cousin marriage is very common in Westeros. Ned's parents, Rickard and Lyarra, were first cousins; so were Tywin and Joanna. 

Also, I think a coalition of the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands is enough to keep the ruling family in power for a long, long time. And what other suitable women could Jon marry?

The instances of incest we have are not love stories per say, but all have a shared, negative end result. They are to steal the rights and make selfish claims. I am not at my computer or I could explain more. 

Rickard and Lyarra were not first cousins, but first cousins once removed. That means a whole other batch of blood was introduced that they don't share. 

IF (if) Jon has to marry, then Val would be ideal because it would unite the north with the new (old) inhabitants and the traditions of "southern" Westeros. They are already following Jon now, regardless of his political position and birthright, and this was majorly hinted at in the Nymeria stories we get snippets from in the main books and the World book. Feel free to check my signature for the thread that explains why and how. 

And Robb most likely already named Jon as king and/or legitimized him, so those other kingdoms are going to follow him as their leader anyway. The incest is not needed. 

And Jon and the other kids grew up as siblings. Nothing is going to change or "spark" on when their true blood relationship is revealed. 

[TyrionTLannister]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The instances of incest we have are not love stories per say, but all have a shared, negative end result. They are to steal the rights and make selfish claims. I am not at my computer or I could explain more. 

Rickard and Lyarra were not first cousins, but first cousins once removed. That means a whole other batch of blood was introduced that they don't share. 

But Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

IF (if) Jon has to marry, then Val would be ideal because it would unite the north with the new (old) inhabitants and the traditions of "southern" Westeros. They are already following Jon now, regardless of his political position and birthright, and this was majorly hinted at in the Nymeria stories we get snippets from in the main bookstore and the World book. Feel free to check my signature for the thread that explains why and how. 

Why would he marry Val? The free folk only number in the thousands. But there are million of people in the North alone. What good would it do for Jon politically? Anyway, he's already married Alys to Sigorn, and their child will likely be the future Lord Karstark. That does enough to integrate the wildings into the North.

I'll start a thread about this topic now. We can move this discussion over there.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, TyrionTLannister said:

But Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

Why would he marry Val? The free folk only number in the thousands. But there are million of people in the North alone. What good would it do for Jon politically? Anyway, he's already married Alys to Sigorn, and their child will likely be the future Lord Karstark. That does enough to integrate the wildings into the North.

I'll start a thread about this topic now. We can move this discussion over there.

 

There aren't millions in the north anymore after the war of five kings, and there won't be after the Orhers come. The wildlings are more adapt to surviving the extreme conditions about to be imposed on Westeros below the wall. Not all will survive, but those south will need teachers and new spouses because there won't be many left. 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

But Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

Why would he marry Val? The free folk only number in the thousands. But there are million of people in the North alone. What good would it do for Jon politically? Anyway, he's already married Alys to Sigorn, and their child will likely be the future Lord Karstark. That does enough to integrate the wildings into the North.

I'll start a thread about this topic now. We can move this discussion over there.

 

Val is more important than she seems for the moment. It does go beyond just political, but that is a big part of it. The free folk  follow who is strong and they will listen to them, which means more peaceful integration. And the free folk have already bowed to Val and paid homage to Jon as their leader. 

And everyone in the norh, except Jon, already think they are actually married (Jon knows nothing.  )

[TyrionTLannister]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There aren't millions in the north anymore after the war of five kings, and there won't be after the Orhers come. The wildlings are more adapt to surviving the extreme conditions about to be imposed on Westeros below the wall. Not all will survive, but those south will need teachers and new spouses because there won't be many left. 

So the wildings are a hundred times as likely to survive the Long Night as the northmen? Because that's the only way their numbers can even come close. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, TyrionTLannister said:

So the wildings are a hundred times as likely to survive the Long Night as the northmen? Because that's the only way their numbers can even come close. 

I did not say anything as extreme as a hundred times more likely. Just that they already have wight experience, something those south of the wall deny exist, and they know how to survive cold, harsh, bare conditions. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No . He does need to he has Summer ,Hoder , Weirwood trees ,and ravens  .

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

But Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

Why would he marry Val? The free folk only number in the thousands. But there are million of people in the North alone. What good would it do for Jon politically? Anyway, he's already married Alys to Sigorn, and their child will likely be the future Lord Karstark. That does enough to integrate the wildings into the North.

I'll start a thread about this topic now. We can move this discussion over there.

 

Towing and Joanna are cousins, but their outcome is reflecting that of the Targs. A downfall of a dynasty as pointed out in some of the quotes I listed above. 

Again, I could go in to it more, but I am in my phone and am also supposed to be working. Sorry for the shorter answers.