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Valyrian Fyrewyrm

Those Chains

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2 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

The big problem D&D have created for us with their ignoring passage of time completely is that we don't know whether they had the chains on hand or not.  Whether they had the chains on hand would make a profound difference in the interpretation of this event.  Having the chain at the ready means that the NK, as a greenseer, knew in advance and did orchestrate this entire battle to capture a dragon.  If it took them weeks to go find a chain and come back to bring up Vissy, just another chalk for poor timelining by D&D.

 

It really isn't a problem.

Whether he had the chains in place or he went and got them.......neither has any effect on the plot or story.

He got a dragon.  That's all the story needed to establish and it did that.

Now, maybe we come to find out he had it all planned out in a future episode.  If we do then all these complaints are stupid.

This is why you can't have a "plot hole" until the story is over.

At any time there can be a flashback or conversation explaining away that thing we thought was a "plot hole" which would mean there never was a plot hole at all......only some "fans" jumping the gun in an effort to complain.

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2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

I take this as D&D improving on the story.

The wildlings should have the knowledge to forge steel in the books.  If they don't, it isn't very plausible.

And I'll tell you why.....

Mance was at the Night's Watch for years.  He'd have seen the blacksmiths forging iron and steel.  When he left and joined the wildlings.....he'd have brought at least some basic knowledge of that with him to whichever wildlings he was with.

If he had spent decades beyond the wall with the wildlings then they had plenty of time to work out improvements and figuring out exactly hwo to get good iron at least.

The wildlings not having iron/steel doesn't make any sense.

So......this is D&D improving on the implausible stuff in the books.-

I don't think that's the case necessarily.  In the books isn't it the Thenns who are known for making steal weapons and crude armour and the remaining wildlings simply use stolen or passed down weapons as opposed to making them.  Also, being familiar with forging iron/steel and actually apprenticing is a bit different I feel like.  The same applies to actually mining iron and knowing what to look for.  I don't disagree that the its odd for the wildlings not having steel at all but I think they simply steal it during their raids. (but then again that's not necessarily the case in the show).

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6 hours ago, Kytheros said:

They don't need to swim to get the chains around Viserion's neck. They can (presumably) walk on the bottom of the lack dragging the chains, wrap them around his neck, and then climb up the chains to get back out.

Also, if most of the wights that go under don't make it back out, who cares? The Walkers can make more. I'd trade a couple dozen wights for a dragon.

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2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

The wildlings should have the knowledge to forge steel in the books.  If they don't, it isn't very plausible.

And I'll tell you why.....

Mance was at the Night's Watch for years.  He'd have seen the blacksmiths forging iron and steel.  When he left and joined the wildlings.....he'd have brought at least some basic knowledge of that with him to whichever wildlings he was with.

If he had spent decades beyond the wall with the wildlings then they had plenty of time to work out improvements and figuring out exactly hwo to get good iron at least.

The wildlings not having iron/steel doesn't make any sense.

So......this is D&D improving on the implausible stuff in the books.-

You come from a culture that's had steel for centuries. If I dropped you in bronze age Britain, would you be able to teach them how to mine and smelt iron, blend steel, and forge steel weapons and tools? Even if you'd worked alongside blacksmiths, that would only teach you the last part, not the rest of it. Not to mention that Westerosi smiths use equipment that you can't build until you already have steelworking, and nobody who hadn't gone through a blacksmith apprenticeship (except maybe a Maester specializing in history) would have any idea how to reinvent the ancient techniques you'd need.

And what if I dropped you into bronze age Finland instead of Britain, where there are no good sources of iron ore in the first place? How are you going to make steel tools and weapons then?

And what I dropped you into a culture that wasn't living like bronze age Celts, but were instead a disorganized rabble living in hunting bands and villages of a few dozen people who raid each other more than they trade, like almost all of the wildlings except the Thenns? Early iron-working techniques take quite a bit of secondary labor, which is why humans rarely developed it, or adopted it from their neighbors, until they were living in much larger and more stable communities where you can afford that kind of division of labor.

Finally, early iron isn't any better than bronze for weapons, or most other tools. It's only when you get to around the second generation of steel technology that bronze is really worth replacing.*

---

* If you're wondering why large swaths of people switched over almost at once in some places, like the Near East, even though it was a downgrade, the best theory I've heard is that the late bronze age collapse either caused, or was partly caused by, tin shortages, so large-scale bronze manufacturing just wasn't an option anymore.

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5 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Still though.... the NK himself can't die from being under water... if the touching brow thing was a need be... jump in himself and do it... it would still be far more believable than these chains appearing out of nowhere. but I hadn't thought of the touch over raised arm thing good point.

It appears to get colder around the NK.  Maybe he was worried about getting stuck as the water froze around him.  

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

You come from a culture that's had steel for centuries. If I dropped you in bronze age Britain, would you be able to teach them how to mine and smelt iron, blend steel, and forge steel weapons and tools? Even if you'd worked alongside blacksmiths, that would only teach you the last part, not the rest of it. Not to mention that Westerosi smiths use equipment that you can't build until you already have steelworking, and nobody who hadn't gone through a blacksmith apprenticeship (except maybe a Maester specializing in history) would have any idea how to reinvent the ancient techniques you'd need.

And what if I dropped you into bronze age Finland instead of Britain, where there are no good sources of iron ore in the first place? How are you going to make steel tools and weapons then?

And what I dropped you into a culture that wasn't living like bronze age Celts, but were instead a disorganized rabble living in hunting bands and villages of a few dozen people who raid each other more than they trade, like almost all of the wildlings except the Thenns? Early iron-working techniques take quite a bit of secondary labor, which is why humans rarely developed it, or adopted it from their neighbors, until they were living in much larger and more stable communities where you can afford that kind of division of labor.

Finally, early iron isn't any better than bronze for weapons, or most other tools. It's only when you get to around the second generation of steel technology that bronze is really worth replacing.*

---

* If you're wondering why large swaths of people switched over almost at once in some places, like the Near East, even though it was a downgrade, the best theory I've heard is that the late bronze age collapse either caused, or was partly caused by, tin shortages, so large-scale bronze manufacturing just wasn't an option anymore.

It isn't about where I come from or what century I live in.  It is about the fact that it makes no sense for the wildlings to not have iron production.

We only have to look at our own world to know that it wouldn't make much sense for the wildlings not to steal the iron making method from the people they are fighting over centuries.

That's how things really happen.

You can look back through history and see this clearly.

If the Thenns had steel production north of the wall then their enemies would have stolen that tech from them in the past 100 years.  They'd have kidnapped a Thenn and tortured it out of him.  They'd have been curious as to how they were making these iron weapons and started spying or just simply figuring it out by trial and error.

Same with the the wildlings raiding the south across the wall.  If they were coming into contact with steel and steel making (blacksmiths in villages of the gift) then over the centuries they would have stolen this technology.  Unless we assume they are just too stupid to figure out they could use it.....but they are stealing the steel.....so we know they find the tech useful.......so there is no way they'd go 300+ years without stealing the tech by kidnapping a blacksmith or at least examining his production methods.

It is implausible to believe that they were in contact with people south of the wall and north of the wall for centuries without them taking the technology for themselves.

All you have to do is look at history to see this.

People stole developments from the people they came into contact with.....either by purchasing the knowledge or by stealing the knowledge.

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I'm confident the chains (and everything happened beyond the wall) will be explained in a future episode. I propose the chains came from Hardhome, and the Night King didn't go back to get them, but brought them originally from Hardhome in anticipation of using them to fish the dragon out of the water.

I think from the writer's point of view. Every casual viewer asked the question "Where did the chains come from?" and the writers would also be asking this. If they didn't intend on answering it, they would've simply written the dragon to crash on solid ground. But they wrote the dragon to fall into the water, then wrote the chain scene. To me this is quite clear the writers are giving hints to viewers that all is not what it seemed at that battle. It hints that this was foreseen, and the Night King came prepared for events he knew were going to happen.

However, if these things are not explained; then I will agree that everything that happened beyond the wall is not only some of the worst writing ever, but that it was intentionally poorly written. I can't with any seriousness entertain that thought, and the only reasonable conclusion is that the Night King had foreknowledge, he had three dragon-piercer ice spears at the ready, and brought the chains from Hardhome, gave a wight to the characters, and let them escape on Drogon, and fished his dragon out of the water

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17 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

It isn't about where I come from or what century I live in.  It is about the fact that it makes no sense for the wildlings to not have iron production.

We only have to look at our own world to know that it wouldn't make much sense for the wildlings not to steal the iron making method from the people they are fighting over centuries.

That's how things really happen.

You can look back through history and see this clearly.

If the Thenns had steel production north of the wall then their enemies would have stolen that tech from them in the past 100 years.  They'd have kidnapped a Thenn and tortured it out of him.  They'd have been curious as to how they were making these iron weapons and started spying or just simply figuring it out by trial and error.

Same with the the wildlings raiding the south across the wall.  If they were coming into contact with steel and steel making (blacksmiths in villages of the gift) then over the centuries they would have stolen this technology.  Unless we assume they are just too stupid to figure out they could use it.....but they are stealing the steel.....so we know they find the tech useful.......so there is no way they'd go 300+ years without stealing the tech by kidnapping a blacksmith or at least examining his production methods.

It is implausible to believe that they were in contact with people south of the wall and north of the wall for centuries without them taking the technology for themselves.

All you have to do is look at history to see this.

People stole developments from the people they came into contact with.....either by purchasing the knowledge or by stealing the knowledge.

But the Thenns don't have steel production. They only have bronze.

Also, even the Thenns have trouble finding enough tin to make bronze, so many of their axes are arrowheads are made of stone.

And meanwhile, civilizations take developments from their neighbors, but wandering bands or villages of 50 people don't have any use for it. Even if someone taught you the secret of iron smelting and pointed you to a nice ore deposit, that wouldn't do you any good without a late-bronze-age-level culture to make use of it. That's why tribes in the Amazon or the Kalahari still aren't making steel today.

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But the Thenns don't have steel production. They only have bronze.

Also, even the Thenns have trouble finding enough tin to make bronze, so many of their axes are arrowheads are made of stone.

And meanwhile, civilizations take developments from their neighbors, but wandering bands or villages of 50 people don't have any use for it. Even if someone taught you the secret of iron smelting and pointed you to a nice ore deposit, that wouldn't do you any good without a late-bronze-age-level culture to make use of it. That's why tribes in the Amazon or the Kalahari still aren't making steel today.

They don't have bronze production in the show.

You are bringing the books into the show so you can criticize the show.

In show, the wildlings have access to poor quality iron or steel or both.

You can't say......where did the chains come from......we know the wildlings don't have iron/steel.......when in the SHOW, they've had iron/steel the entire time so IN SHOW.....we KNOW that the wildlings have access to iron/steel.

Now, maybe GRRM went through and explained why the wildlings never got steel/iron and how they climbed the wall without steel/iron (or maybe they don't raid the south in the books) but in the show......the wildlings and giants obviously have steel/iron making because we see them all using steel/iron constantly on the show.

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25 minutes ago, John Meta said:

I'm confident the chains (and everything happened beyond the wall) will be explained in a future episode. I propose the chains came from Hardhome, and the Night King didn't go back to get them, but brought them originally from Hardhome in anticipation of using them to fish the dragon out of the water.

I think from the writer's point of view. Every casual viewer asked the question "Where did the chains come from?" and the writers would also be asking this. If they didn't intend on answering it, they would've simply written the dragon to crash on solid ground. But they wrote the dragon to fall into the water, then wrote the chain scene. To me this is quite clear the writers are giving hints to viewers that all is not what it seemed at that battle. It hints that this was foreseen, and the Night King came prepared for events he knew were going to happen.

However, if these things are not explained; then I will agree that everything that happened beyond the wall is not only some of the worst writing ever, but that it was intentionally poorly written. I can't with any seriousness entertain that thought, and the only reasonable conclusion is that the Night King had foreknowledge, he had three dragon-piercer ice spears at the ready, and brought the chains from Hardhome, gave a wight to the characters, and let them escape on Drogon, and fished his dragon out of the water

I will be shocked if they waste one moment of screen time (yes, waste) on the orgin of the chains.

From a show writers point of view.....they established that the wildlings and friends have access to iron/steel long ago so there is no reason, in show universe, to spend one moment explaining such a trivial thing.

 

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Just now, Lord Okra said:

They don't have bronze production in the show.

You are bringing the books into the show so you can criticize the show.

No, you're the one bringing the books in:

Quote

The wildlings should have the knowledge to forge steel in the books.  If they don't, it isn't very plausible.

That's why I responded in terms of the books. You seem to think the book Thenns make steel, but you're wrong.

If you want to move the goalposts and go by the show instead, then fine: the show Thenns are barbaric cannibals who have even less technology than the rest of the wildlings, so the idea of the other wildlings getting steelworking from them is even more ludicrous.

I don't have any problem with the chains. We saw that the Wildlings using heavy chains at the Wall, and we saw heavy chains at Hardhome. Whether they stole them or not isn't important; they're obviously around, north of the Wall, for the Night King to pick up, so presumably he picked them up.

But I do have a problem with you insisting that the Wildlings should have the knowledge to forge steel in the books. The wildlings are basically a neolithic culture, except for the metal they're occasionally able to steal from the kneelers and the Thenns, and maybe some stuff left over from Hardhome more than 6 centuries ago. People living in climates so harsh they can't maintain settlements larger than villages that number in the dozens do not learn metalworking from their neighbors. There's no reason to believe the Wildlings should be able to mine, smelt, and forge iron.

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14 minutes ago, falcotron said:

No, you're the one bringing the books in:

That's why I responded in terms of the books. You seem to think the book Thenns make steel, but you're wrong.

If you want to move the goalposts and go by the show instead, then fine: the show Thenns are barbaric cannibals who have even less technology than the rest of the wildlings, so the idea of the other wildlings getting steelworking from them is even more ludicrous.

I don't have any problem with the chains. We saw that the Wildlings using heavy chains at the Wall, and we saw heavy chains at Hardhome. Whether they stole them or not isn't important; they're obviously around, north of the Wall, for the Night King to pick up, so presumably he picked them up.

But I do have a problem with you insisting that the Wildlings should have the knowledge to forge steel in the books. The wildlings are basically a neolithic culture, except for the metal they're occasionally able to steal from the kneelers and the Thenns, and maybe some stuff left over from Hardhome more than 6 centuries ago. People living in climates so harsh they can't maintain settlements larger than villages that number in the dozens do not learn metalworking from their neighbors. There's no reason to believe the Wildlings should be able to mine, smelt, and forge iron.

Somebody else mentioned that only the Thenn's make the steel/iron/bronze in the books.  I haven't read the books so how can I be bringing them in?

I'm saying that it makes less sense in the books for them to not have iron working than any non issue of them having iron working in the show (since in the show universe wildling iron working is not even addressed at all......we can safely assume that they can make crappy iron at least).

Whenever anyone mentions that the wildlings don't have steel/iron working skills or production.....that is someone taking info from the book universe that isn't found in the show universe and then using the book information to criticize the show.

But the SHOW gave the wildlings steel/iron way back in season 2/3?  I can't recall when they first show up.  Ygritte has a nice steel axe when we meet our first wildling.  Where does it come from?  Nobody says.  Nobody bothers to mention that the wildlings don't have any steel/iron making or working capabilities.......only a person who has read the books would even think to wonder about it at all.......because the show doesn't state they have no iron/steel making/working other than they like the "good" steel of the south.

At best you can infer that they can't make "good" steel from show universe.  You could never deduce that they had no iron/steel making/working knowledge.

And yeah, it is more plausible to think they picked up the tech interacting with southerners.....nights watch the past 500 years than to think they never bothered to try to learn or were too dumb to figure it out after seeing the finished products and having the opportunity to examine a blacksmith's operation......or question him with his feet in a fire.....or to bribe one with 4 ginger women........

I mean, you can make a story up about why they don't have any iron/steel working skills and make it reasonable.....I get that.  But in the absence of any talk on the subject (show) it'd be unreasonable to think they don't have any sort of iron/steel making/working capabilities.

You MUST be bringing book canon to the show to complain about the chains.

But then, you'd be complaining about the crampons they wear in earlier seasons to climb the wall and the abundance of cheap steel weapons in Mance's army.......they have this capability in the show universe.

 

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41 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

I will be shocked if they waste one moment of screen time (yes, waste) on the orgin of the chains.

From a show writers point of view.....they established that the wildlings and friends have access to iron/steel long ago so there is no reason, in show universe, to spend one moment explaining such a trivial thing.

 

I don't think it's trivial. I'm saying that because the writers wrote the dragon to go into the water. They could've writtien the dragon to fall to solid ground, but they chose to write the dragon going into the water; which decision required the presence of chains, making the presence of chains not a trivial thing, but a necessity due to the dragon being written to go into the water in the first place.

But that it was written as it was tells me this was not a trivial moment, the presence of the chains is not trivial, and the explanation will not be a trivial reveal, but will be a pivotal reveal/explanation.

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1 minute ago, John Meta said:

I don't think it's trivial. I'm saying that because the writers wrote the dragon to go into the water. They could've writtien the dragon to fall to solid ground, but they chose to write the dragon going into the water; which decision required the presence of chains, making the presence of chains not a trivial thing, but a necessity due to the dragon being written to go into the water in the first place.

But that it was written as it was tells me this was not a trivial moment, the presence of the chains is not trivial, and the explanation will not be a trivial reveal, but will be a pivotal reveal/explanation.

It could also have been discussed in the writers' room that if Viserion had fallen dead to the ground, the NK had already displayed the ability to instantly raise fresh kills on the battleground, so it would be an inconsistency that he didn't do so now and initiate a dragon on dragon battle.

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6 minutes ago, John Meta said:

I don't think it's trivial. I'm saying that because the writers wrote the dragon to go into the water. They could've writtien the dragon to fall to solid ground, but they chose to write the dragon going into the water; which decision required the presence of chains, making the presence of chains not a trivial thing, but a necessity due to the dragon being written to go into the water in the first place.

But that it was written as it was tells me this was not a trivial moment, the presence of the chains is not trivial, and the explanation will not be a trivial reveal, but will be a pivotal reveal/explanation.

The writers wrote the dragon going down into the water because of the effect.

He slowly closes his eyes and slips down under the ice......it had a great look that gave the wanted dramatic effect.

It wasn't a trivial moment.  It was the moment Dany lost her first dragon.  It was written in a way to help give the moment the dramatic look it deserved so they didn't have him land on a pile of snow......instead, like great tv/movie writers do....they took an approach that yanked at the viewers heart and maximized the impact.

But where they got the chains to retrieve him from is trivial and won't be addressed.

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8 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

It could also have been discussed in the writers' room that if Viserion had fallen dead to the ground, the NK had already displayed the ability to instantly raise fresh kills on the battleground, so it would be an inconsistency that he didn't do so now and initiate a dragon on dragon battle.

Excellent point.  Another reason great writers wouldn't have him hit the ground and lay there.

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1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

But where they got the chains to retrieve him from is trivial and won't be addressed.

Agreed.  I can see the S8e3 scene, 8 minutes at Pyke:

Euron:  "Has anyone seen my chains?

IIer: "chains, my lord?"

Euron: "MY CHAINS!  WHERE THE FOOK ARE MY CHAINS?"

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47 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Agreed.  I can see the S8e3 scene, 8 minutes at Pyke:

Euron:  "Has anyone seen my chains?

IIer: "chains, my lord?"

Euron: "MY CHAINS!  WHERE THE FOOK ARE MY CHAINS?"

Could be.  D&D sitting around the conference room, "OK we got some time in the show for the chains bit, Ghost, Howland Reed, or Tyrion taking a drink of wine from a glass.  Which one are we gonna go with?"

 

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10 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

I haven't read the books so how can I be bringing them in?

I'm saying that it makes less sense in the books for them to not have iron working

Look, I'll admit that it makes no sense for someone who's never read the books to bring the books in, but that doesn't change the fact that you did bring the books in—as I quoted above—and you just did it again. It doesn't make sense that you'd do this, but you keep doing it.

10 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

And yeah, it is more plausible to think they picked up the tech interacting with southerners.....nights watch the past 500 years than to think they never bothered to try to learn or were too dumb to figure it out after seeing the finished products and having the opportunity to examine a blacksmith's operation......or question him with his feet in a fire.....or to bribe one with 4 ginger women........

Once again, it has nothing to do with being "too dumb", it has to do with living in a hunter-gatherer society with no settlements of more than a few dozen people. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or who you bribe or torture for information, a band of 50 people cannot forge steel. You keep talking about history, but you don't seem to understand this basic, fundamental difference between stone-age bands and iron-age settled cities.

10 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

You MUST be bringing book canon to the show to complain about the chains.

Where are you even getting this from? You even quoted me saying "I don't have any problem with the chains". Do you not even read the posts you quote?

And again, why do you keep complaining about me bringing book canon in when you're the one who keeps talking about the books, even in this same very post where you complain about people bringing in the books?

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The chains were silly, but it didn't bother me early as !ich as all the other nonsense that came before them. Ultimately, the chains are just a cool visual (YMMW I think Viserion breaking the ice would have been better). It was pretty clear from the moment Viserion went down that the NK would try to resurrect him. Personally, I don't understand why they needed to get him out of the water first at all - the NK didn't need to touch the wights individually before to raise them at all and could do so at a considerable distance. He should have been able to raise Viserion from the shore. Ther fore, the sudden appearance of the chains, while ridiculous, ultimately doesn't really affect the plot in any way nor is it a convoluted coincidence to help the protagonists escape a trap they were written into. It's just the writers bring unimaginative.

I'm still curious how the wights managed to lift several tons of dead dragon *underwater* in order to wrap the chains around his body. 

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