A Ghost of Someone Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 GRRM has stated that he made a mistake by not having other titles like Dukes, Earls, Marguess, Counts etc... or other names for them other than Lords and Wardends etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanian Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 So Spake Martin Quote The number of titles of medieval nobility multiplied over times, as the feudal system became more complex and the social structure more layered, with various degrees of precedence, etc. In the earlier periods -- say, England around the time of Henry I and William II Rufus -- all those different titles did not exist. I prefered the simplicity of those times. In hindsight, I probably should have added a least one more title to differentiate the great houses from their vassals, but I am glad I stayed clear of using the whole roster of noble stylings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 One thing on vassal/liege strength comparison; Some vassals would have more lands than their liege; Best example of this would be Tullys. Tullys were given the land their castle sits on by a Vance centuries past (maybe more), so that branch of Vances (or maybe it was before branching) would have far more lands and income than Tullys. Same goes for anyone who holds Harrenhal; though not all of it's lands were granted to the winner of Maegor's "tournament",the castle is still described as having huge tracts of land with a godswood of 20 acres where as Winterfell has a godswood of 3 acres. Possibly Freys have also become one such lord over time, having houses older than them sworn to them. Arryns would also be in a similar situation compared with Royces; though some of them are now direct vassals to Arryns, during the initial Andal invasion all the remaining first men kings and lords of the Vale swore themselves to Royces and some of them, even though far away (Coldwater), are still sworn to Royces. Some Andal houses are now Royce bannermen too(Tolletts, who fought against Royces). Manderly and Starks would be the same as well. Same applies for Tyrells, who inherited Gardener lands, and Hightowers, who were powerful kings in their own right and integrated into the Gardener Realms peacefuly. Same applies for Dorne as well, kingdom of the Martells was a small one compared to some others, especially Yronwoods'. It was only after the manpower boost coming from Nymeria and her Rhoynar that Martells were able to become "The Power" in Dorne and with no major land gains personally, it would be a temporary one. Yronwoods clinging to the title "Blood Royale" would be an indicator of this, Martells had to make concessions just like Iron Throne did with them. Quote below may give us some indication on how the power balance in the Dorne is Quote "I know better. You need not even leave your chair. Let me avenge my father. You have a host in the Prince's Pass. Lord Yronwood has another in the Boneway. Grant me the one and Nym the other. Let her ride the kingsroad, whilst I turn the marcher lords out of their castles and hook round to march on Oldtown." Only Doran and Lord Yronwood is mentioned as having hosts. Doran obviously has his vassals in his army so Yronwoods by themselves perhaps near match the strength of all the other houses put together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I'm actually a bit annoyed that GRRM kept it so simple. Sure, its easier at first than the real system for noble titles, but we could really use another one or two titles to get a quick understanding about the relative strength and importance of the Houses without getting into extended description of their power. When the situation grows more complex, as they do in the series, then its hard to know what the support of difference Houses actually mean in real terms. For example if we learn that during the Dance of the Dragon that the Houses Aubrey and Colmare clashed and that Lord Aubrey was Green and Lord Colmare was Black, then we don't have a clue about who is the stronger of them or what they bring to their side. If we learn that Duke Aubrey was Green and Count Colmare was Black, then we'll be able to sense that the Greens were stronger in this clash simply by looking at the titles. Thus the system I would propose would be this King Lord Paramount Duke Count Lord Baron (instead of "petty lord" and perhaps also "landed knight") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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